Join us for a transformative webinar that explores the neuroscience behind civility and its profound impact on business outcomes. Discover how prosocial behavior fosters a positive work environment, boosts employee engagement, and drives innovation. Learn practical strategies to cultivate a culture of respect, empathy, and understanding. Through engaging discussions and real-world examples, we'll delve into the latest research on workplace civility, exploring its benefits for both individuals and organizations. Gain insights into how civility can enhance discretionary effort, improve employee retention, and strengthen connections within your team. Don't miss this opportunity to unlock the power of civility and create a more harmonious and productive workplace.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Hi! Welcome back to another week of your brain at work. Live! I am not Shelby, but I'm your host today. My name is Emma Sorrow and I had the research team at Nli
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Dr. Emma Sarro: for our regulars. We're happy to have you back, and for our newcomers welcome. We're excited to have you here with us. For the 1st time
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Dr. Emma Sarro: in this episode, we're diving into the latest research on workplace civility through engaging discussions and real world examples, diving into the underlying neural pinnings of what it means to be in civil and how to create civility.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: exploring both the benefits for individuals and organizations.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Now, as I quickly share some housekeeping notes. Please feel free to share where you're coming in from. Today. I'm just outside of New York City.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: We are recording today's sessions. So if you're interested in a replay, be on the lookout for an email later today.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: this email will also include a survey for feedback and a number of resources that are aligned with today's conversations.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: We suggest that you put your phone on. Do not disturb and quit your email and messaging app so you can get the most out of the show today, and it helps with the quality of the audio and the video. We love interaction, as you know. Please keep dropping your thoughts and comments in the chat, and we'll get to as many as we can.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: So time to introduce our whole set of speakers today that will be joining me. Our 1st speaker broke barriers as one of the first, st and for a long time only, Black Sea level speechwriters in the fortune. 100.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Her 3 Ted presentations, challenging businesses to get serious about inclusion, have collectively over 2.5 million views, her superpowers applying neuroscience to solve de and I challenges
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Dr. Emma Sarro: build actionable de, and I frameworks and strategies brokering honest de. And I conversations among top leaders. Please join me in welcoming, analyze global head of de, and I, Janet Stovall, it's great to have you today.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: Thanks, Emma. Good to be here.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Our next guest coined the term neural leadership. When he co-founded Nli over 2 decades ago
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Dr. Emma Sarro: with a professional doctorate, 4 successful books under his name, and a multitude of bylines ranging from the Harvard Business Review to the New York Times, and many more warm welcome to our co-founder and CEO of the Neural Leadership Institute, Dr. David Rock.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Thanks for being here. David.
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Dr. David Rock: Thanks very much, Emma. Great to be back with you and everyone, Janet. Great great to see you, Janet.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, this is going to be a great, great conversation. So, as you know, we're talking about incivility and civility. And it's actually a 2 part series. This time, we're going to kind of just start the discussion today. Talk about what we can do right now, really diving into this challenge that we can't ignore.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: and we're all feeling it getting worse. And we'd love to hear your thoughts in the chat about how this is how this is feeling for you as as we talk to. You know the behaviors and and like what you're seeing, and really why, it's important to slow the cycle down, and we'll talk about what we mean by cycle.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: So just going to start this off and tee it off to Janet. What's going on with incivility in the workplace.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: Well, I think it's pretty clear to most of us that it is definitely rising. And that's across all industries, across all types of organizations and all parts of all types of organizations.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: In fact, a survey from the American Bar Association said that 85% of people surveyed say that incivility in the workplace is worse than it was 10 years ago.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: and that was
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: a while back when they did that. So 78% said they witnessed instability at least once a month. 76% say they experience it themselves at least once a month. They see it, they experience it.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: But it's not just people that are affected by incivility.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: The bottom line, how organizations deliver their profits, everything that's feeling the effects of it, too.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: think about the delays the distractions. Just a general disruption that's caused by incivility.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: Well, that was estimated to be about $14,000 per employee each year, and that estimate was 15 years ago. We can only imagine what it is now. And we can also only imagine what the impact is on teamwork, innovation, customer relationships. It's hard to even calculate what that is.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I can. I would love to hear people's reaction on what and like, how they feel like, it's changing over time. We can all predict why and like how it will be changing over the next few months what they predict as as an outcome of this, but absolutely
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Dr. Emma Sarro: think about your own individual experience. Whether or not it was an outward presentation of rude behavior, you know. Is it rudeness, or is it just you just feel something is off, and how much that delays your own productivity.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: You know, David, I would love to hear what your thoughts are, and how you see this this changing now.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, you know, this concept kind of really came onto my radar in during the 1st trump Presidency the 1st 4 years. And
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Dr. David Rock: when it when it happens. A lot of people were really really shocked and upset and
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Dr. David Rock: but in particular, in the workplace, we had the situation of you know, very, very passionate.
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Dr. David Rock: black lives matters like groups
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Dr. David Rock: and kind of literally up against red hat groups like people in factories like literally lining up. You sort of picture it, and, you know, screaming each other.
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Dr. David Rock: And you know, suddenly this like it, wasn't just incivility. It was like incredible you know, like verging on violence. And and at the time there was like de-escalation skills
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Dr. David Rock: needed to happen. And we ended up getting into that. But it it just got my! It sort of really got my attention at the time of of how much kind of incivility, you know, verging on aggression at times. There there is in the workplace. And that's continuous, or punctuated, or or
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Dr. David Rock: accelerated by various world events. That kind of incivility has happened. I think post pandemic people are very, very raw. Still, from the experience.
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Dr. David Rock: a lot of a lot lot of people just like
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Dr. David Rock: lost their social skills lost the ability to just be nice to other humans in public.
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Dr. David Rock: And so I think there's
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Dr. David Rock: there's a
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Dr. David Rock: there's been sort of been a trend growing trend, I guess since that time, or maybe I've just noticed it.
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Dr. David Rock: Interesting. You know, we we wrote a piece at that time about what you can do as a leader
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Dr. David Rock: about incivility. And and you know, in this kind of division, and it's you can't ignore it. That's tacit approval.
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Dr. David Rock: You can't necessarily come out for one side or the other. You've got to kind of
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Dr. David Rock: validate each side to some degree like like not not invalidate a side right, validate some degree, or just so that they feel heard
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Dr. David Rock: and then focus on shared goals like, bring people back to the mission of the business, bring people back to shared goals. That's what they seems to, you know, that's what. So that's at an organizational level. What we're going to talk about today is like, what can individuals do? Not so much the organizational managers. But I think at an organizational level is a lot about
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Dr. David Rock: bringing people back to shared goals. I think.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you know, and I think, what's coming up in the chat is really like, how do we even how do we even talk about or define incivility, because what's what is interesting about the definition and how how
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Dr. Emma Sarro: academia, let's say, is defined incivility is. It's not always so easy to see, and maybe it's not even so. It's maybe not necessarily intentional. But it happens. And so I'd love Janet. What would you? How would you discuss or define incivility.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: Well, you know, we all think that we will know it when we see it.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: But the reality is, I mean, you know, we think it's somebody's rude, somebody's disrespectful. And usually it's not clear whether the person, often it's not clear whether the person actually intended to cause any harm, so it can be subtle, it can be obvious, it can be intentional, it can be not.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: And I mean, you know how it looks. It's like, interrupt somebody. Roll the eyes. You ignore the emails, you just actually put somebody down.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: But whatever the form.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: it creates, a negative and an uncomfortable atmosphere where people feel unsafe or undervalued. That's sort of the standard.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: But and it's not. But like you said before him, it's always not always easy to see. I mean, it can be kind of tricky sometimes it's
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: obvious somebody yells at you.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: but usually it's subtle, like a rude tone, or you cut somebody off, and what's rude to me
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: might be totally normal to somebody else. Sometimes there can be a cultural difference of of the way you just communicate.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: And honestly.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: power dynamics can make it even harder to see like, maybe your boss thinks they're saying something because they're being funny, but it comes across as totally different to the people who are
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: not the boss. It can be mean to the team. They can feel it differently.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: Think about going online. You know, David, you were talking about how things have changed. One of the things that also has changed is that we do so much in the pandemic. It was starting before that, but definitely in the pandemic. We went online. You don't have body language to help you out. So it it. And and people can hide behind a computer screen.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: So
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: the subtle stuff
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: is there, but it's actually worse sometimes in many ways, because it's insidious. It flies under the radar. You can't call it out.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: People might not even realize it being rude, or they can dismiss it as a big deal is no big deal.
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Dr. David Rock: Actually, you brought that up. There's sort of 2 2 mechanisms there that are happening. One is that if you sort of imagine
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Dr. David Rock: continue, we've got in person. Then you've got on the phone. Then you've got in sort of real time chat. Then you've got an email.
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Dr. David Rock: right? People are basically more rude
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Dr. David Rock: as you go down that ladder right? People aren't so rude in person. They're less rude on the telephone.
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Dr. David Rock: you know, but but they're much more rude.
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Dr. David Rock: You know, in text and much in really rude and email quite often. And part of it is, the is is sort of people being uncivil, but the other half of that is the receiver.
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Dr. David Rock: Finds the information really painful, more painful as well, and
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Dr. David Rock: with the absence of social cues you tend to assume the worst that's happening
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Dr. David Rock: right?
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Dr. David Rock: But separately to that, you're also just.
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Dr. David Rock: you know, it might actually be uncivil. And you just you just feel it more
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Dr. David Rock: in that more digital environment. So I think so, I think people are ruder and it hurts more in a more digital environment as well.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: And I don't know about you, but I think that
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: I think people are more sensitive to you know we're looking for it now I think we are so polarized and so so
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: we feel it so much more in the workplace that even now you always want to assume good intent, but it's hard, because I think even when people don't mean anything, we are sensitized to expect it. There's just kind of a bad vibe, and arguments start, and it can damage relationships. And it really can have a lot of damage on an environment. And people, you know, sometimes they do mean it. But I think most of the time they don't.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: but the effects are the same.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, absolutely. And Ali said it really well, in the chat, incivility is like a delayed bomb, because it can take it can take such a long time of rumination and thinking about it, and you as an individual, you're trying to understand why that happened. And as David said, you're thinking the worst. If you don't have any other information, you're thinking about it as the worst.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: And so, without any clarity, and the sender might have just been sending a text without without the right emoji. So without that right, Emoji, you're going to assume that this was sent out of bad intent, or they were frustrated or angry.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: and that leads to you thinking about this for a week, and it delays. Time, delays, work, and then maybe how you respond. The next time will be with a bit more incivil behavior, a bit more kind of like rushed or blunt response, and then it then it can spiral as as we'll talk about it can really just get out of control, and that can all stem from a lack of understanding. But it's still under the umbrella of incivility.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: So, David, what was what do you see is going on in the brain? Then we kind of mentioned a bit about this, this lack of value. Things like that. What would you say is going on.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, I mean, we we talk a lot about the threat response that we all experience.
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Dr. David Rock: you know. And and you know, threat, the threat or reward response, something we experience moment to moment. And
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Dr. David Rock: when we experience incivility, obviously, it's a pretty strong threat response. It's largely a status threat.
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Dr. David Rock: It's like a it's a put down right. So we we, you know, we're walking past
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Dr. David Rock: the kitchen, and someone makes a comment that you can't really tell if it's rude or not. But it's just not nice, you know. And and you're definitely getting this status threat. And you you feel your sort of heat rising, your heart rate going up.
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Dr. David Rock: And and you feel like you've got to protect your status to some degree, because, you know, status is a really really important thing.
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Dr. David Rock: you know, in in not just in the workplace, but in life.
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Dr. David Rock: And so it's it's it's also it also can be a relatedness threat like, it's someone you thought maybe someone you thought was on your team.
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Dr. David Rock: You thought, you know. And now they're being, you know, kind of cruel to you in some ways.
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Dr. David Rock: and I think one of the issues is it's these things are often ambiguous, and ambiguity is the worst, like you can't tell if the person was being mean or funny.
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Dr. David Rock: Maybe they intended to be funny, but there's sort of a mean edge, because they still annoyed about something you did, and we'll we'll get into this in a minute. There's this sort of area of
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Dr. David Rock: of of your sort of sarcasm, irony, whatever. And I'm I'm guilty of this terribly. My kids are always pulling me up on this. They say, you know, Dad, you got to stop using dark humor.
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Dr. David Rock: but you know there's there's not much place for dark humor in the workplace when you know it, just it doesn't land well and and I think sometimes you know, people are just pushing it far, and
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Dr. David Rock: it's but the humor is on top of, you know, some emotional, some some sort of relational dysregulations going on between people.
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Dr. David Rock: So it just it just doesn't land. Well, you think you don't really know, and it's now you got uncertainty as well. You've got a status attack.
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Dr. David Rock: You've got a real. You're feeling outgroup, you're feeling, you know, like a relatedness attack. You're feeling out. Group might be really uncertain as well. You don't have any control. You don't have a sense of autonomy, or, you know, control at all, and it can feel really unfair. Right? So you can. You can easily get all 5 domains of scarf kind of fired off, but the big one is status.
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Dr. David Rock: but then the other ones can really kick in as well. So that's what's going on. And certainly, if you're getting 5, you're getting potentially an overwhelming threat response.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah. And I would say, we mentioned this a bit as well, too. Janet is just this idea that we're in a more sensitive spot right now, and and we talk a bit about just like long term trauma coming out of several years of all of this uncertainty and ambiguity and and divisiveness, and that doesn't just take a week to to heal. This takes months, if not years, to heal. So
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Dr. Emma Sarro: we're at a spot where now the tiniest little thing, just like one little interruption can cause us to immediately assume that we're being insulted. And maybe we were. And maybe it was just a mistake.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: You know people talk about. We've all heard the term microaggression, and even the
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: people who coined that term are starting to say, you know they're really not micro because they really do build up over time. So there's nothing micro about this, the same thing about incivility.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: It may seem small, but it spirals. And you talked about that a little bit, and it spirals. And so
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: it doesn't. It's a small thing, but it can have really big big implications over time.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, you know something that was dropped in the chat is this. Paul dropped this in the chat. It he thinks it's key to assume positive intent. Now, what would you? What would you suggest about that, I mean, is that the best way?
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Maybe.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: It is the best way, but it's not always easy, because if you think about that.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: positive intent depends on who you are, because, you know, David, you were talking a little bit about. Sometimes people will make a joke sometimes you don't understand the cultural context that somebody's coming from. And so it might be, might be possible for them to assume positive intent. You can try, and I think it is good that we all do try, and I think it's always better if we assume that people did not mean harm. But sometimes that's easier with some people than is others. Sometimes it's easier in other situations than it is others.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: It's just hard to expect that you're always going to be the one who can kind of, you know, turn the other cheek and assume the best of people, and it's understandable. If you can't, it doesn't mean you're a bad person. It just means that it depends on who it is what was said, what the context was. So it's better if we all try to work a little bit on both sides of that equation and don't always assume that people will assume
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: that is positive intent on your part.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Absolutely. Yeah. And and I think the the lack of general you know, we're much more global. Now, right? We're working with individuals that have much different experiences. So even just the experience at a prior company
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Dr. Emma Sarro: or cultural difference going into a situation and making a certain kind of joke that works isn't always going to land so well, and it's hard to even keep track of all of these things. How can we even also be ourselves
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Dr. Emma Sarro: in in a work environment. If we can't bring our own jokes in.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: they have any any thoughts on on that. Just the like. And the downstream effects of all the all that threat on our ability to work and collaborate.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, look, one of the hardest things to get your head around as a as an adult, really, not to mention a leader, is intent versus impact.
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Dr. David Rock: I think I can like actually remember the struggle, the sort of philosophical struggle I had with myself sometimes in my twenties of like.
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Dr. David Rock: just because you intended you know it one way. You actually have to be responsible and thoughtful about the impact. Separate to the intent, you know. And it was really hard at the time, I was like, no, I got to be authentic to myself where their response is their responsibility. That's nothing to do with me, you know, and I sort of really arrogant in my, in my youth about that. And then at some point, I was like, Wow, okay, well, actually.
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Dr. David Rock: I need to actually think about impact. And in some ways intent doesn't really matter.
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Dr. David Rock: particularly if you're trying to get things done in the world through other people like what matters is is your actual impact. Right?
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Dr. David Rock: So I think I think a lot of people struggle with that. And
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Dr. David Rock: you know, many, many times I've intended one thing and and accidentally impacted people a completely different way. And and Janet often has to call me up and say, David, we have to have one of those conversations again where you accidentally scarfed a bunch of people. And and I listen. And we we you know it's always every single time being completely blindside. I've been completely blindsided, like I didn't intend
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Dr. David Rock: to upset anyone. The impact was really different to my intent, you know, and sometimes my sometimes my intent was really really clear to me, like I was addressing this issue. And but the impact was completely different. Wasn't it wasn't always just bad, dad jokes or bad, you know, humor. It was so. So this I just think that intent versus impact issue was a really really important thing. And then for leaders to to for everyone to clear clear up clean things up when you've accidentally
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Dr. David Rock: impacted people away. You didn't want to.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: And I think that's what you said. That's very important. And that's why I came off mute to make that point. Yes, the important thing is and you do. This is when we have one of those little talks. So when you realize it.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: you come back and you say, Okay, look.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: that's not what I meant. And and that's important. Because I think we do. You know, back to what you're saying, Emma, about assuming positive intent. There's something about giving people grace, because 9 times out of 10 you've probably done something that was unintentional as well, and the key is understanding that sometimes intention and impact
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: don't connect. And when that happens, acknowledging that and saying, you know, even if you explain what your intent is, not necessarily justifying it, just saying I am sorry, and I didn't know that. And then listening and understand, the important thing is to understand why it was wrong, so that then, you know, the next time. Maybe you don't do that, we'll do something different the next time. But that is key in in leadership, I think so.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: Yeah.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, it's sort of mixing 2 things up. I'm I'm confusing people. I think
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Dr. David Rock: the
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Dr. David Rock: the like as as an individual communicator, being being thoughtful about impact or not. Just intent, I think, is really important, right?
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Dr. David Rock: But as as a as a receiver of messages, I think it is really important to to consider people's intent.
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Dr. David Rock: because we, a lot of the source of conflict, is misreading people's intent like I see it right. It'll be like, oh, this person was really trying to get me. No, they're actually just trying to deliver to the client, you know, on time, you know. And this person was, you know, being really mean to me. No, they were they, you know, they were dealing with their own trauma from from this past event, you know, so so much like we misread people's intent
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Dr. David Rock: a lot, and I think if you, if you assume positive intent as a receiver of messages, these things can be, can be helped. So I do think there's a role for
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Dr. David Rock: assuming positive intent in there. But, you know, really think about impact as as a deliver of messages. I think it's important.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: Agreed.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, no, it's so interesting. And throughout this whole discussion, all I'm thinking is, this is really difficult. This is difficult to get right thinking about your own intent, and then receiving it well, understanding completely. And then, on top of that, all we keep talking about in so many of our episodes is just how overwhelmed in that capacity we all are. So how can we do that? When, how can we pause
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Dr. Emma Sarro: and make sure that our intent is clear, and that we're also trying to understand if we said things in the wrong tone or in the wrong way, and then go back in to apologize. I think a lot of times we might miss going back in and making sure we were clear and stopping that cycle of the rumination that might have been in the receiver's head at that time.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Pause them and and explain before it, getting too out of control. So I think, and especially as leaders, we know we talk about this. And, David, you brought this up, this idea of power, that our perspective is going to be different because we're seeing this more strategic vision level perspective. We might not
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Dr. Emma Sarro: have someone that can talk to us and pull us aside and say, You know, that was not the right way to say that, and you might have missed. They they have misinterpreted you in some way, so it might also be important as a leader to always have that person to keep you accountable in that way as well.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah. And the other thing that's that's coming up. And as we kind of move over onto. Like, you know, this long term impact on businesses is we talk about this often, this contagion effect as well. So you might be directly targeting, or or it might be misinterpreted by one individual. But
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Dr. Emma Sarro: what we observe in the workplace we observe these behaviors. It has the exact same impact on our brain as it does, as if we experienced it ourselves. So this contagion effect, we show this. The research shows this, that experiencing or watching bad behavior has the same effect and has impact on our collaboration, our ability to communicate, understand all those cognitive effects, the same thing.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: You can imagine what you know. Some poor interactions can have that impact can have on the whole organization like the culture itself. And so this can very easily kind of grow out of control.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Any thoughts. David.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, I mean, we just put a link in about the contagion effect. I mean, you know, like
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Dr. David Rock: we, we, we learn culture by watching people, and we learn it unconsciously, like
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Dr. David Rock: we, we learn it by just unconsciously observing behaviors and interactions. What's okay, what's not? Okay? And you know, it's particularly a new person in a in a company or a team just really learns how things are done. And I think the the so much of of culture and and climate is is just very, very automatic. It's watching people interacting. And so you gotta really, you gotta really watch this
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Dr. David Rock: I think the
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Dr. David Rock: you know, there's there's the the.
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Dr. David Rock: you know. People do something because they feel that everyone does this here. That's why we do things right. People do things because it's this feels like how you know how this feels. Okay, here. So making things normative, like being uncivil, you know, one uncivil act bunch of other people can see it, and it can definitely have that ripple effect across. You know, it can have that ripple effect across the business.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: I think about my 1st job out of college was working for Morgan Stanley, and back in the days when you know you had big quatrons and people doing stuff. People yelled at each other on the trading floor on a regular basis
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: and coming in there. It was just shocking me how people so rude. I was moving to New York for the 1st time. It was a cultural change. It was an organizational change, but that was the language. That's the way people talk. It seemed incredibly uncivil to me, but that's just the way it was. And so I think to David's point
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: sometimes what you see, is, and and so in civil workplace
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: is the
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: nature of that place.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: But you can't necessarily take that and take it somewhere else. That has a different kind of environment. And when the environment, when you're when you're that person who's in civil, in a different kind of environment, it does affect how the teams work. It affects things from all level. It can affect how customers feel. How everything works, and it does have an effect on the bottom line, and it makes it so that people don't do the jobs you want them there to do.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Right, absolutely. And so, and Steve dropped in the chat that you're so real, and that is 100% true. So, being real, why don't you talk a bit about this incivility spiral? We've been kind of mentioning it. Why is it so important for us to really stop this at its head right now?
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: I think the researchers named Anderson and Pearson did some research on this, and what they call it is they actually call something the instability spiral.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: and it works like this. Somebody's a little rude. Then somebody else is rude back, and it just escalates and escalates and escalates. And before you know it. You've got a toxic workplace, and everybody's miserable. Negativity just becomes sort of the norm. People stop trusting each other. They don't care about their work.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: and they're more likely to be rude themselves.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: It can even spiral into something that turns into like official office complaints, lawsuits, it can seriously damage the organization's reputation. So it does it spirals, and if you don't stop it, I think, Emma, I think you said something about that. You got to stop it at some point.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: and there are a lot of ways to do that, but if you don't, it can have some very serious effects.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So it's clearly an issue. I feel like we've set the stage for something that we really need to fix right away. And maybe address at multiple levels. So before we kind of dive into like the brain based ways to fix this and the behaviors that we can kind of start doing. Now.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: I'm just curious about this this concept of civility and respect, because, as we were doing all of our research in all of the definitions around civility and civil workplaces. Sometimes we'd see the word respect come in as well. And so I'd love to just get a little idea about how you would pull these apart, because because you believe there really are different concepts and creating them is different.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: One of the reasons, I think, that a lot of people have, especially people who do Dei work, who have pushed back against the concept of studying civility is because that term is often used interchangeably with respect. They are not the same things, and we make that distinction. It's kind of like civility is being polite.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: It's it's it's not being.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: I won't use the word, but it's not being that person. Okay. Respect, though, is about truly valuing people and their contributions. So we're going to talk about that a little bit more next week when we're going to take those things apart.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: The way I think about it is is that
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: civility in in its true term
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: is about
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: human courtesy.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: But when you take it to human respect often, then, you're moving into the Dei space because you have to be aware of and value something about another person. You can't respect somebody that you don't value. And so that's what we're going to talk about a little bit more next week. We're going to break those things apart.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: Yeah.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Amazing. Yeah. But but let's let's start with civility. Then, right? We we, you know, went through all the research understanding, like, what is civility, the set of shared behaviors. And as soon as we see that we think oh, we can create those, we can create a set of behaviors.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: And we started kind of trying to unpack that. What is the base level of courtesy in the workplace that can allow us to get things done? David.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, no, we're we're looking at like.
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Dr. David Rock: how do you? You make people more civil? And you know the the obvious answer people will go to. Firstly, is, you know.
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Dr. David Rock: put in like a cost of being in civil like. Tell everyone they you know they get fired or they get fined, or they.
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Dr. David Rock: It doesn't really work like the threat response around. Incivility isn't really going to work. And then you sort of go to the other extreme, and you can say, Well, can we make humans kinder
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Dr. David Rock: Is it possible to make people kinder? Intrinsically? I'm not so sure. And I don't think that's what we're trying to do. But it's like, All right. Well, can you? Can you break a cycle?
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Dr. David Rock: Can we? Can we sort of be in the middle somewhere? Can we? We break a cycle somehow? And
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Dr. David Rock: what's the habit that happens
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Dr. David Rock: in that moment of instability? And what's a new habit we could replace it with.
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Dr. David Rock: And we were thinking about that and looking at it from a cognitive perspective. And
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Dr. David Rock: I think what happens with instability is there's a moment where you sort of. You have this opportunity
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Dr. David Rock: to be uncivil, you know you walk into a lunch room and people are eating, and they're looking really relaxed, and you have this moment of choice. Right?
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Dr. David Rock: You can say, Hey, you know, I hope you're enjoying.
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Dr. David Rock: you know, like something really incivil or uncivil. It could be either, right in civil, uncivil you know you and you. So you got this sort of moment.
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Dr. David Rock: And what we realized is that
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Dr. David Rock: a little bit like the speaking up work. The the 1st step is kind of noticing that moment. Notice the like urge and
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Dr. David Rock: you know, you notice that you're about to say something, and in particular, notice what that automatic response is like. Notice your urge
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Dr. David Rock: right? You've you've got this urge to be, you know, cruel or slightly mean, or.
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Dr. David Rock: you know, slightly nasty, but in a sort of couched way.
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Dr. David Rock: You've got this. So notice the urge, and I think that that 1st step is like noticing those things coming up, noticing yourself, wanting to be
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Dr. David Rock: you know, a little something, and then and then the second thing is like
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Dr. David Rock: maybe label that a little bit like what's what's driving that? What's going on?
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Dr. David Rock: so that you can. You can reduce it. Oh, you know, this person, you know was mean to me in a meeting last week, so I'm I'm just trying to get back at them. Or oh, I'm just, you know. I don't like this person's boss, and I'm trying to, you know, cause conflict, or like you sort of label like what's going on. And then the the 3rd step is
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Dr. David Rock: is what what we were thinking of as as like communicating cleanly.
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Dr. David Rock: And I want to dig into that a bit. But yeah, the the 1st step is like, note is like, pay attention to how you're communicating. And and notice these. These are urges to be
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Dr. David Rock: a little bit rude. Basically notice the desire to poke at someone.
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Dr. David Rock: See if you can identify what's driving that. And then how do you be really?
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Dr. David Rock: How do you be really kind of clean in your communication. Now let's give an example. What I mean by by clean
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Dr. David Rock: You know you're you're sort of annoyed that people appear to be having a long lunch. Right? So so you know, unclean like uncivil would be like, you know, why are you guys loafing off?
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Dr. David Rock: It's not very civil, right? Or you know, you guys are wasting time, don't you know there's money to be made, you know, or there's many versions of uncivil. Some of them are quite rude. Some of them are just like on the edge, like, you know, you say, you know, have you know, you guys have you have enough time for lunch, you know. Do you need? Do you need more time for lunch? Right? You can be a little
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Dr. David Rock: humorous, right? But people read that pretty badly, especially if you're more senior
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Dr. David Rock: and so
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Dr. David Rock: you know, how do you interact in a way that's clean? And the question with clean is is that the recipient isn't going to be left with some sort of ambiguity or uncertainty. And there's no like negative punch in it.
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Dr. David Rock: There's there's no like negative function. That doesn't mean you have to like step over things. There's ways to do it.
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Dr. David Rock: You know. You know, what lunch hour are you guys on you. You want 12 to one. You want one to 2. What's your you know? What? What are you guys on right? If you do it in a friendly way.
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Dr. David Rock: You're still addressing. You're not stepping over something, but you're addressing. You know your concern that people are having an extra long lunch.
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Dr. David Rock: but you're doing in a way that doesn't leave.
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Dr. David Rock: you know. Leave a scar
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Dr. David Rock: for the other, you know, for the other people. So we've been developing these kind of and we're having fun with it, like these different scenarios, and you can be very uncivil, slightly uncivil, sort of neutral, slightly positive, more positive.
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Dr. David Rock: you know in your, in your tone, I think, as people sort of see these continuums, it's like, Oh, yeah, I'm sort of here a lot.
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Dr. David Rock: And and you don't have to be nice, you just have to be neutral.
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Dr. David Rock: right? You just have to learn like, let's just let's just be neutral.
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Dr. David Rock: and that's kind of what civil is civil is the absence of uncivil in a way.
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Dr. David Rock: And so you're just trying to at least be neutral. So we're not trying to make people kinder.
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Dr. David Rock: We're not trying to say, let's all be nice to each other, Kumbaya, and past the oranges, and you know we're not necessarily trying to do that. We're trying to say, you know. Notice these moments where you're going to create unnecessary conflict.
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Dr. David Rock: and and just just do it cleanly instead.
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Dr. David Rock: Right? Communicate whatever you want to communicate cleanly
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Dr. David Rock: without the the sort of, because, you know, you don't have the following effect, so that's how that's how I was saying in each of those
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Dr. David Rock: steps have some really interesting research in them and some really interesting science in them. So we're, you know, we're unpacking that at the moment thinking about it and
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Dr. David Rock: and you know we're starting to build solutions around this for for partners as well.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think when thinking about those 1st 2 habits, notice your response and inhibit the response. This all seems to be hinging on this emotional regulation. And we talk a lot about emotional regulation and the power it has on just how you understand the environment around you and your ability to actually think clearly. So we know for anyone who's
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Dr. Emma Sarro: who's read any of our work or listen to any of these podcasts is just that when you're able to kind of notice what is impacting you and understand it, whether you're labeling it with oh, that was, you know, a status threat, or that was, or reappraise it. You know this is, you know, they must be in a rush, or whatever it is
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Dr. Emma Sarro: that you appraise it with. You don't have to necessarily be right, but it's your ability to kind of like dampen that limbic response and kind of reengage generally reengage your prefrontal cortex, allowing you to keep focusing. But what's coming up for me is just that you know who who is going through these behaviors is. Maybe
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Dr. Emma Sarro: you need to do this in response to how you're interpreting somebody else. So we're just really asking everyone to stop the cycle at some point. You might not be the instigator of this, and I'd love to kind of hear your thoughts on that, Shannon.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: Well, it's interesting. We say this.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: you know.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: we're all moving in a space now, sort of a heightened sense of
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: threat stress all these things, and they make us reach out in the world differently. One of the things I always say. And I talk to my kids about this.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: If you're having a certain response, a lot.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: And it's it's happening to you a lot. The problem is probably you.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: It's probably not. Everybody else is just, you know, not understanding you, or whatever the problem is, probably you, because it is hard, you know, sometimes in the moment.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: to say
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: to stop yourself and say, why am I doing this? Because you're just kind of saying it. But I think that one way I know for me. That's been the thing. If if I see that there's a pattern of response.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: I don't always assume that everybody else has the issue. I start asking, Is it me? And if you start. If you can start asking yourself that over time. I do think you get better in the moment
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: of catching yourself before you do it, but you have to be aware of how people respond. Because really, sometimes that's the only way you can know that you've done something that's incivil
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: is by reading other people's responses to it.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: yeah, absolutely. And you know, it might be, you know, thinking about this, if you're the only one going through these interactions and noticing and pausing and reappraising, and then trying to communicate cleanly.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Then you'll be the only one in the organization trying to be civil. So it does have to spread throughout the organization. So if everyone were to kind of practice, these behaviors, maybe not. Everyone would love each other and be best friends. We're not asking everyone to go out and have lunch together, but in the workplace, being able to be productive, and, and, you know, be able to get work done and be engaged.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: These are maybe the you know, baseline level of of behaviors.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: Yeah. Civil behaviors. Civil behaviors are superficial. I mean, it's and I don't say that in a bad way. But it is. It's like you said. It's a baseline table stakes behavior. And you people have to get along. People have to work together.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: And as someone from the South can tell you this is sort of that difference between civil behavior and respect
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: as somebody from the South who is very well versed in the bless your heart
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: to somebody. We can say that in a heartbeat we can be as nice to you as all get out and have 0 respect for you. So there are 2 things that have to change, to create a truly civil environment, behavior and belief. Human courtesy is about behavior. Human respect is about belief. One can be an Hr issue, the other can be a Dei challenge. And so that's why we separate them when we talk about them.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, we're gonna dig into respect next week. I'm just thinking about
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Dr. David Rock: Bryce's comment in the chat. And we've we've been sort of thinking about, like the where these different skills and habits live like you think of civility as very foundational, you know. It's like, you know, don't be mean
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Dr. David Rock: civility is like. Don't be mean, you know, from from there you go, you know, to respect, which is is a bit deeper, right, you know, being on the positive side. So it's not just the absence of negative and being neutral, civility is sort of being neutral. Respect is adding positive right? But then you go from there to inclusion.
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Dr. David Rock: I think, where you're not just respecting people, but you're really including them. And so you've got now the inclusion habits. But you're going from there to psychological safety. How do you actually create the conditions for people to to really argue and debate healthy ways and really kind of tackle the ideas. And so I think there's a continuum from from civility to respect, to inclusion, to psychological safety, that that people that know what's interesting is you end up kind of coming back to the same
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Dr. David Rock: central ideas around, you know, in group and out, group and status and fairness. And these kinds of things. Yeah, you end up coming back to the same kind of biological understandings of what's going on as you learn these different skills. But it does seem to be in a bit of a pathway, I think, starting with starting with, you know, civility. And it's a little, you know. It's a little depressing in a way that we've got to go out and teach companies about, or individuals about. Don't be mean, but you know that's the way the world is at the moment might be a whole lot of causes. But
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Dr. David Rock: it's like
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Dr. David Rock: that's kind of a a priority in companies at the moment is let's
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Dr. David Rock: turn down the meanness. And it's, you know, particularly in retail hospitality, some of these places that there needs to be a little bit of this of this work done.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. I think it's amazing that we have to continue to work on this, that we're diving back in and trying to understand how to be civil with each other. But but you're right. It is the 1st step, and then we can do these other pieces that are just as difficult. But this is not easy. It's definitely not easy to to respond civilly when you feel like you've been undermined in some way.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: and that you see these behaviors around. You see your own team, you know you're in group, you know, responding in a certain way. We, you know, we, we react differently to individuals that we feel like are in our out group. We talk about this all the time. When we feel like where our status is is threatened, then we're going to react in certain ways. So this is not an easy set of behaviors. While we say, this is a foundational step. It's definitely not easy.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: No, and and let's face it. The bar has been lowered.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: you know, in terms of political discourse, you know. We talked about the pandemic. And the distance we talked about what you know being online has done. The bar has been lowered. So it does feel like, why do we have to at this point have this discussion. We've always had to have it, but it does seem more prevalent now, because it is the the ability to be in civil
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: has been sort of. We've been given much more permission than we ever had before, and those effects are real.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: yeah. What are your thoughts? David?
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, I'm just curious to see what questions folks have in the audience or what's resonating. This is the 1st time we've talked about these habits. So I'm I'm curious about questions from the audience, or any feedback on the habits that we're outlining. Some interesting reflections in the chat.
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Dr. David Rock: But yeah, just curious what what folks think. You know, we're not trying to make people kinder. We're just trying to turn down the the meanness in a way, the accidental meanness and the intentional meanness, trying to turn that down and and doing that with, you know, increasing awareness of that moment.
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Dr. David Rock: learning to regulate, and then learning to communicate just cleanly, and showing people the difference between clean and not clean. So really having that diction, I think. So that that's what we think is the pathway to better habits. But yeah, what do folks think? What are you seeing in the chat there, Emma?
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, I'm I'm seeing a lot. But you know what's interesting is. Paul dropped again in the chat. Something around.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: you know. You can respond civilly to someone who tax tax you maybe to disarm them if they're spoiling for a fight. For instance, you know, how do you not take the bait, and what's coming up for me in that? And that makes total sense is also what's the role of the leader in this? If you have individuals behaving in a certain way, how you can't expect your employees to always not take the bait unless you're changing the culture. So what what is the role of the leader in this.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, I mean, the the leaders set the tone. Obviously, it's a it's a cliche. But you know the leaders.
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Dr. David Rock: a leader who, you know screams at their team, you know, every few weeks
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Dr. David Rock: makes it completely okay for everyone else to do that. So you know, leaders really really set the tone. For for really everything, and and a lot of research on this, we pay attention to the highest status person in a community.
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Dr. David Rock: We take on their emotions we take on their. But we also take on their habits. We take on their beliefs. We do all of that unconsciously without trying. So so the yeah. The leaders really set the time by leader. I mean, just, you know, Team Leader Supervisor, you know, at any any level
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Dr. David Rock: they'll they'll really set the tone. So I think
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Dr. David Rock: I think,
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Dr. David Rock: you know role modeling. This obviously is important. Role modeling, you know, real civility. And you know, I think the moments that matter are cleaning up when you've made a mistake as well.
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Dr. David Rock: So it's not about being perfect. But I think you know, leaders need to clean up when they've they've accidentally been uncivil and recognize it and acknowledge it and apologize. And and I think those moments really help to create the right culture as well.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: And mind you, we're talking about. You know, we're not talking about flat out, bold
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: disruption. That's the 0 tolerance thing. I mean, we know leaders know that. That's clear. It's the stuff that's not so obvious. That is harder to deal with. And, like David saying that a lot of that has to do with modeling that behavior. And quite honestly.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: you don't usually have the very blatant stuff. If that were the case, it would be relatively easy to fix. But it's the more subtle things. It's the ongoing things that are problematic. And if a leader does not model that behavior, you cannot expect
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: anybody that you're leading to do it. So what you do matters.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, we're getting a lot of questions in here. Now, one thing that's coming up is just what do we mean by being clean, you know, when we communicate cleanly. What is that? What does that look like?
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, I mean, it's it's literally like, if you. If you said this to a hundred people, most of them would be neutral in their emotional response. They wouldn't be positive they wouldn't be negative.
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Dr. David Rock: They would just be like they'd hardly notice the comment, right? So that so for me, clean language is it's just, it's it's everything that's necessary and nothing that isn't
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Dr. David Rock: right. It's it's just communicating in a way that doesn't
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Dr. David Rock: doesn't create a threat response. The other person, if they're wired up and you're seeing skin conductance, you're not seeing sweat
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Dr. David Rock: when they when they you know when they hear what you've said so for me, for me, clean language is just not language that doesn't create a threat response on the other side, but it's not necessarily trying to be kind and lovely and warm, either. It's not necessarily trying to be inclusive, you know, it's just. It's just being clean, and that's how I would
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Dr. David Rock: describe it. And of course, you know. So I mentioned this. Earlier. Different cultures have different interpretations of everything. So what might be clean in one culture might be super insulting in another. So we you know, we need to be mindful of that. But yeah, for me, it's it's about
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Dr. David Rock: what you're saying lands in a way that people hardly notice it, and certainly don't have a spiky negative reaction. Janet, how would you describe it?
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: I'd agree, and I think that it really depends on what you're communicating about. You know, when you were talking your example of the
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: too long a lunch.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: I kept thinking, all right. So if I'm a leader and I see this, how would I communicate cleanly about that?
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: And there is a reality that sometimes, no matter what you say, depending on your position, somebody is going to have
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: a response to it because you're the leader. They're not even if you were to come in very simply and say, You know what glad you're enjoying lunch.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: However, you know we really don't. As an organization here go past an hour, and it's looking a little past that that could be a very
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: objective response, and somebody could respond so and negatively because a leader said it to them. But the reality is is, I think it's transparency to me. It's being very transparent about something, and that some of that recall reminds, you know, calls for knowing why you why, you're having the interaction in the 1st place. So if you, as a leader, for example, came to that that extended lunch, and you knew
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: there was a policy against it. If you knew that there were things to be done. You know, David, you mentioned sometimes a leadership strategy that other people don't.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: Maybe having a transparent discussion of. That
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: is a way to speak cleanly, so cleanly depends, I think, on what the situation is who you're talking to when you have that conversation and all those kind of things. But it is about it still goes back to you at 1st asking yourself the question, stopping in the moment and saying.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: Why do I feel the need
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: to say this? And sometimes when you get that straight in your head. It will drive how you say it, and it may, it may make it easier to have that clean and transparent response that you wouldn't have otherwise.
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Dr. David Rock: That's the labeling part. Oh, why am I feeling like being mean here? You know what's what's making me feel mean? Here I was the person who cut me off in traffic this morning. Oh, it's.
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Dr. David Rock: All I just got from my boss. Oh, it's the way I was treated in this like what's what's making me want to be made. So I think that things like notice your desire to be uncivil, I mean.
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Dr. David Rock: see if you can label what's going on, and then and then how do you land it cleanly? I think, is the, you know, is the focus. Yeah, no interesting conversations of interesting questions. I'm I'm I'm curious about the sort of people's thoughts and reflections on the on the framework itself as well. But
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Dr. David Rock: anything coming out there in the chat, Emma.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, I mean, I think, I think a lot of the comments are really around like the communication piece, because I think that is one of the most difficult difficult parts is making sure it's communicated in a way, in a global environment, maybe with a new team depending on your level, whether you're you know,
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Dr. Emma Sarro: on a team, or you're a team lead, or you're, you know, like an executive level that's going to come off differently, depending on who you're talking to and how you're communicating. And in a virtual environment where communication is so different.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: And we're sensitive to all of the different pieces you know. How often are are individuals on camera? During virtual meetings, and how are they communicating? Is it only chat, or is it so? All of those things? Can you see people side chatting while you're in a meeting? All of those things are just different kinds of ways that can be interpreted differently.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: And so I think it's difficult. And we did get a question. Just around, you know, inheriting uncivil team. So if you're trying to change the culture of your team, that's another challenge. How do you change behaviors on a team? And we do have a lot of experience changing behaviors. But that's that's another challenge. You know, you're faced with this. This is the culture of their team. And and how do you change that.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: I go back to. I think a lot of it is as a leader
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: about being very being transparent and having a degree of vulnerability, I mean, I tell people all the time. Look.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: I I sometimes say things, and and I they come off wrong. I don't mean to
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: call me on it I'm giving. I'm giving you agency to call me on it. Feel that you can say something to me
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: now if I tell somebody that I can't then go, and you know, pop up, pop off on them later, or punish them for that. I got to be willing to do that. I do think there's something about
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: admitting, when you make a mistake.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: admitting that you do make mistakes and giving people space to not be perfect because it is scary.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: you know as we're having this conversation, I'm sure I'm I'm as usual, not looking at the chat as well as I should see. I'll admit that. But it. I am sure that some of the angst is well. My goodness, can I say anything? Should I just not talk? I would argue that you should, you should talk, and you should be open.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's some of that fear happened in the in the pandemic about, you know, I can't talk about Dei at all because people are just too sensitive and stuff. But you've got to. You gotta be okay. Having clumsy conversations, you gotta be okay, just waiting, waiting into these things a little bit. Fantastic. So yeah, I think we're gonna wrap up in a second. We'll put up a poll before folks jump off. Just good to to know how to support you.
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Dr. David Rock: And you know such a rich and important conversation, thinking about, how do we, you know, create less mean workplaces. It's a low bar, isn't it? But I think it's important. Let's follow the science around these things. Speaking of science, I'm super psyched about our summit coming up October 29th and 30, and around the clock with Times in Emea, Apac and North America, and I'm working on the sessions with everyone in the last few weeks. It's going to be amazing.
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Dr. David Rock: To be honest, I build the session. So I've got things to learn.
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Dr. David Rock: I'm excited about all the things I'm going to learn at the summit from all the different presenters and and the research we're presenting, there's a lot. So if I'm excited you should probably be excited. It's looking really amazing, and try and get try and hold the day as much as you can. On the 2 days 29th and 30th of October.
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Dr. David Rock: and my team can put a link in the chat if you haven't checked that out yet. But a really great program. I'm also excited about an event we're doing in person in New York. We're doing a brain-based design and facilitation workshop. I'm actually leading it.
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Dr. David Rock: It's it's it's a double click into how to really design and deliver from a much more brain based way than anyone else kind of thinks about. And, to be honest, we're giving away a lot of our like internal training that we would teach faculty inside partner clients. To really understand how to design and deliver in in the way that we do. So.
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Dr. David Rock: So that's coming up next month in New York City. I understand there'll be a virtual one for people anywhere early 2025 as well. You'll see details about that soon. So those those things are happening. And I'm I'm excited about that, Janet. Great to have a conversation with you again today. Thanks for your.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: And here.
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Dr. David Rock: Real authentic presence and and reflections. And I know next week we're going to dig into respect. So kind of getting further on the continue. What is it to really respect people? How does that look? I look forward to that conversation next week. Thanks so much, Emma.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: You too. Thanks, Emma. Thanks, David.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Thank you both. Yeah, it was great. And I know we're yeah. We're absolutely excited about summit. I know there was a poll in that popped up. So please take a look at it. Let us know how we can help you. It'll stay for a few moments. As I just kind of go through the last last announcement. So, as David mentioned, Summit 2024 is on its way.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: It'll take place the 29th and 30.th You've seen the links in the chat, we will have one on civility. So, and also how it links to psychological safety. As this has kind of been coming up in the discussion. So it'll it'll track with what we talk about there, and we'll have researchers that have studied civility and incivility and
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Dr. Emma Sarro: impact on the workplace. So we'll be talking about all of this. There, it'll be a virtual experience. And global, as David mentioned. And so the summit website is live information on all of our speakers and the topics and tickets are available. So just visit the website
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Dr. Emma Sarro: to see, you know, just to take a look at at the whole, the whole schedule.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: If you've enjoyed today's conversation, you'll love the podcast show. So make sure you subscribe. You can hear the past Friday webinars on demand. So look for your brain at work wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts. And this is where we say goodbye on behalf of today's guests and myself the Nli team behind the scenes. Thank you for joining us, and we'll be here next week.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Take care.