Experienced architects can read blueprints and know immediately if the building design will work. Leaders must master this same skill when it comes to their culture change, leadership principles and team development. On the next episode of "Your Brain at Work LIVE", Dr. David Rock joins Rachel Cardero as they explore three key concepts that will help leaders to master the art and science of culture transformation.
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Shelby Wilburn: Welcome back to another week of your brain at work. Live! I'm your host, Shelby Wolverine, for our regulars. We're happy to have you back. And for our newcomers, we're excited to have you here with us today. For the first time in this episode we'll explore 3 key concepts to help leaders master the art and science of culture transformation. Now, as I quickly share some housekeeping notes, drop in the chat or in the comments box where you're joining in from today.
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Shelby Wilburn: we are recording today's session. So if you're interested on a replay, be on the lookout for an email later today, that email is going to include a survey for feedback as well as a number of resources that are aligned to today's conversation. We suggest putting your phone on. Do not disturb quitting out of your email and messaging apps. So you can get the most out of today's discussion. And it's also going to help with your audio and video quality, and we love interaction. So feel free to share your thoughts and comments with us in the chat throughout the show.
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Now, to get this hour underway. I'm going to introduce our speakers.
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Shelby Wilburn: Our guest for today is the Vice President of consulting at Nli, where she manages the consulting and advisory functions. She has extensive experience in management and consulting across a diverse array of industries. She's the author of Nlis seminal research on organizational growth, mindset and brain friendly leadership models. Her current specialty is partnering with executives on transformational initiatives, specifically global leadership transformations and large scale culture change.
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Shelby Wilburn: Please join me in welcoming vice President of consulting at Nli. Rachel Cardero. It's great to have you here today, Rachel. Thanks, Shelby, and a big, happy women's day to everybody on the line. Yes, absolutely, absolutely, and joining her is no stranger and ozzy turn. New Yorker, who coined the term neural leadership when he co-founded Nli over 2 decades ago
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Shelby Wilburn: with a professional doctorate for successful books under his name, and a multitude of bylines ranging from the Harvard Business Review to the New York Times, and many more a warm welcome to the Co. Founder and CEO of the Neural Leadership Institute. Dr. David Rock. Great to have you here, David and I will pass it over to you.
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Dr. David Rock: Thank you so much, Shelby. Great to be here. So, looking forward to this conversation, it's such a fascinating and important conversation, and, to be honest, II schedule these things because there are things I want to talk about more and understand more and unpack more, and kind of get feedback from people as well. So I'll be really curious to see people's comments in the chat about some of the ideas. Please share your kind of insights and questions as we go. It's such an important topic. It's really a perennial topic, which is like, How do you change large numbers of people?
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Dr. David Rock: And whether that's, you know 100 people in a startup, or, you know, 10,000 people and sort of mid size, firm or 100,000 people, or what about the entire you know the entire U.S.A. or the entire world. If you try to kind of really think big, what are the what are the principles of that? And
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Dr. David Rock: I've had the privilege of helping like a literally a Presidential candidate. Think about his things recently have been approached by some people doing some planetary level things on on climate, and just really challenging my thinking about
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Dr. David Rock: whole system change and kind of what the principles are. So it made me think about all right. What are some of the principles? And where do we kind of need to to found? So
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Dr. David Rock: that's kind of how we how we got here. But Rachel, great to great to chat with you, has. It's been it's been 10 years thinking that very thing. It's been over 10 years that you and I have been working together, and I mean that entire time this topic, this theme of change, has been evergreen. And I wonder? I I'm really curious to know. You know, across that 10 years we've been looking at human change, organizational change.
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Rachel Cardero: environmental change. Like all these different types of change. What really got you interested in change human change? Let's say way back, when it's over 26 years of more than 5 million people have been affected by Nli.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, now, it's about 2 or 3 million a year, which is really scary. Really something. But you know, I guess you know there's that thing about you. Teach best what you know, what you most need to learn, you know, so that you can learn it. And you know, II started analyzing my in my you know, early thirties. And I, was not very organized, was not very focused, was not very disciplined. I really wanted to kind of understand my own brain and and kind of how to help
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Dr. David Rock: people kind of improve. And I and I found that you know. I started out coaching people. And I found that coaching people had this amazing kind of
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Dr. David Rock: backwash effect, or sort of you know, flow and effect that it really really helped me with my own goals and what I was trying to do.
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Dr. David Rock: And I just got I got really, really interested in in how you help particularly smarter people be smarter. How you help people who are already pretty successful kind of do more. And I just I just the time I just thought there was nothing out there for that. There was therapy. There was, you know, lot for people who had clinical issues or psychological issues. But there was nothing at the time, and I kinda helped founded the coaching movement 26 years ago. Outside North America. We've trained 25,000 and something coaches across.
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Dr. David Rock: You know, Africa, India, the Middle East, Eastern Europe, Latin America. Lots of places. But it was. It was, it was always it sort of started with this question of How do you help smart people get smarter? And then it got, you know, got kind of obsessed with this question of of sort of the most effective way to do that. That's that was sort of where we started out.
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Rachel Cardero: Umhm. And you know that coaching material is really impactful for me. Personally, I mean even breaking down the faces of insight for people like knowing as a leader being able to look at somebody and know when they're processing and when they're thinking. And now, you know, looking at systems change, I'm I'm wondering like when you made that switch from even looking at people's faces to help create change to kind of broader organizational change.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, yeah, let me just address that insight thing. You know, one of the biggest kind of breakthroughs that that we had in 26 years was realizing that the the active ingredient in coaching that was like the necessary kind of active ingredient if you're making a drug was was. This was a strong moment of insight, and we realized that something you could literally see if you're watching people here, if you're listening to them, is a very recognizable moment.
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Dr. David Rock: And it was actually that that got me really obsessed about neuroscience. I'd been reading it privately and studying it privately, since I was like a teenager, literally. But I realized, like insight change the brain. It was a biological phenomena. It happened in every language. I was seeing it literally in multiple languages. And it just it just became clear to me that that giving people this big A-ha. Moment
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Dr. David Rock: was was the necessary condition
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Dr. David Rock: for you know, really meaningful change. And amazingly, when you had that, these huge things would happen that maybe wouldn't have happened for years and years and years before. So I kind of that sort of started my journey. And then II started to see that that was like
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Dr. David Rock: really relevant to whole systems. That that kind of creating this insight moment out of the system level was was necessary. And I guess
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Dr. David Rock: what. What got me interested was we? We made a transition. It's pretty early is like 2022 or something. No, 2,002 2,001, 2,002 is that we started having organizations contact us and say, You know, can you help us with our you know all our people managers across the company. You know, we need to shift our culture
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Dr. David Rock: and it started out, as you know, we need our managers to be more coach like. Can you help us do that? You know you're training great coaches. Can you actually help managers be better coaches? And it it just came to see that that there was this huge gap in being able to do change at a systems level. And the
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Dr. David Rock: most of the work that I was seeing was incredibly inefficient and effective. You know, you'd you'd come in to work in an organization. And you know, over 2 years you'd work with 10% of the employees, maybe really slowly. And you never. You just never get momentum
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Dr. David Rock: so you could create insight. But you couldn't get momentum. So really early, more than 20 years ago, I got really interested in in how do you affect a whole organization? And and and how do you? You know? How do you impact them? And and I think.
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Dr. David Rock: II think, like a good metaphor, is like, if you've got like a single like generator, you know, petrol, you know, gasoline. And you know, J. Generator, that's just, you know, putting out a bit of power. What's the difference between that and a racing car?
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Dr. David Rock: And on one level they're exactly the same right? They both. They're both, you know.
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Dr. David Rock: burning fuel and moving a piston and outputting power right from a distance that really really similar. But if you're you know, if you know how to fix the generator, you don't necessarily know everything about how to fix a formula, one car, and but the there are principles that kind of apply at the different levels of scale. And I think that's kind of what is, there are things about individual change that are really transferable to organizational change. But there's a lot of other things around it to really, to really kind of make it work.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, I love thinking about this in terms of cities, like, you know, people in cities creating change, let's say, helping one person exercise more is one thing versus
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Rachel Cardero: having an entire city exercise more, Miss City Girl. And I'm like, I think, so many people. It's hard to see what the similarities, and the differences are between those levels of change cause they feel so different. I think sometimes the similarities are harder to identify than the differences.
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Dr. David Rock: Have you seen trends with the differences and similarities over the years? Yeah, I mean, I think if you sort of take the the sort of you know core engine. And if one Formula One, you know, sort of metaphor, I think that added a system level. You actually still need people to have insights. You actually need. But but instead of having sort of how do you help this one person have an insight is, how do you help? You know 1 million people have an insight. And it's still an insight. Right? And insights require
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Dr. David Rock: the same mechanisms to happen. Right? You need people open
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Dr. David Rock: right? You need things that kind of different, you know, data coming at them. They need to be able to reflect.
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Dr. David Rock: The it's it's ideal. If the data coming at them is is A is a really powerful story, cause the story kind of opens in mind, but also has, like a really powerful why or science or research or data. And it's kind of the combination of the story and the science together that creates the strongest insight. We see. So so that is a required condition, whether you're trying to change one person or or a million people, because you want those people to have insights, and the principles
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Dr. David Rock: for creating those insights are very, very similar. But just kind of more complicated. So that's that's very much there. The other thing that you need is
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Dr. David Rock: is you need some kind of prioritization, like something that makes people like take action on the inside. Because, you, you know, we all have
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Dr. David Rock: big ideas every day. We all have, you know. Things we we we go. Oh, I really should do that. That's a little bit of an insight, right? Oh, oh, I've forgotten. So you know I've gone to exercise for the last week. I was really in a flow before I should get back to it. That's an insight. But do we do it right. And so you need some kind of we call a positive social pressure that has a good percentage of the people who have insights. Now take action
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Dr. David Rock: right? There's lots and lots of different ways of doing that. As you get to scaling that that gets harder and harder. But you know, in an organization something as simple as you know. Hey? 50'clock Friday, in your local time, you need to email this email address with the 3 things you did differently this week. And that email could be seen by one person who only looks at 5 out of 5 million emails. Right? But it's it's called the panopticon effect, where people feel like they're being watched.
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Dr. David Rock: Now, you get, you know, 70, 80, 90% of people taking an action and emailing just because someone could, you know, read that email, right? So that that's an example of positive social pressure at scale that would work at 100,000 people. Where you've got. You need some structure where
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Dr. David Rock: people feel like they've got a they've really got to do this and that. The biggest reason. And this is this is a really important finding from social science. The biggest reason people do something, it turns out, is they think everyone is doing it.
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Dr. David Rock: So so so we've got to create this impression that everyone is doing this and and that creates this positive pressure of people not wanting to kind of look bad in front of their peers and all that. So so you need insight. You need some kind of positive pressure
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Dr. David Rock: social pressure, right? And then it also needs you also need to keep them focused on this over time.
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Dr. David Rock: So, you can't just kind of do something, you know. Get people to do something once right, you need to kind of focus people over a unit of time, and that obviously gets harder and harder at scale. But I think of those are sort of the 3 minimum viable product elements for change at an individual or any scale. You know. Planetary scale.
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Dr. David Rock: the
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Dr. David Rock: You know, we we've got this really cool project at the moment. Someone a friend and colleague of many years is working on kind of the next version of live aid like a huge, huge, huge, huge event around the world in the next 12 months. That will that will, you know, whole other scale involving you know, the sort of every country in the world and all this. And and I was talking to her about us like, oh, you haven't got a you haven't got a habit activation strategy for
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Dr. David Rock: you know, for for people actually do things like what's the call to action. She's like, no, we haven't. That's amazing. So we're gonna work on like, literally how do you kinda nudge the entire world to do things that improve climate change. But following the science like, how do you?
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Dr. David Rock: How do you identify the right habits? Right? The level of billions of people? What are the right habits for billions of people. And then how do you kind of get people to take those on? And then how do you?
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Dr. David Rock: Kind of really scale that.
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And those are sort of 3 different things. What are the right habits? How do you embed them in individuals? And then how do you scale it
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Dr. David Rock: this are 3 different questions don't ask me how we're gonna do it yet. It's an incredibly crazy, exciting project that we just at the very, very beginning of. But I think it's something behavioral science should be working on. We should be working on, you know, that kind of questions. So so those are the 3 things people need insights. They need some kind of positive pressure. So it should be in some social construct. And they need to do this over time. And if you can create a strong enough insight, and those other 2 conditions, lots and lots of people seem to really change. It's really amazing. Just how much?
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah. Yeah. And it's, I mean, I found it's a little counterintuitive for people sometimes when they don't, you know, they figure out people will take action. They'll figure out their own way. But I feel like when they don't have those building blocks for change, you know. If you come to this idea time and time again.
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Dr. David Rock: And you're like, Oh, I thought I was gonna do something, and I didn't do it. And well, I tried last time, but it didn't happen, and I tried again. Even if it's small at some point, it's like, Why am I doing this? I mean, even if you want to participate, you just give up on it. Yeah, yeah. But I go back to this thing. It's it's really interesting for such an important topic. There's so little research on whole systems change right? And I'll give you a bit of a story. I
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Dr. David Rock: when I first started getting interested in the brain was literally professionally. I've been interested personally, literally, forever. But when I when I started first started getting interested professionally, I was teaching at Nyu. I was on an adjunct there. I basically built the coaching programs using our IP and we plugged that into Nyu and we were running a coaching certificate program. And and what happened was because it was academic.
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Dr. David Rock: I needed to bring theories and research. And at some point I just started bringing kind of
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Dr. David Rock: literally, just photocopies of some of my favorite brain books because they were photocopies of specific quotes because they were some quotes in books like John Radi's, The User's Guide to the brain. And you know, Doges, the brain that changes itself rather is that there was a question that actually was so helpful for coaches to understand.
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Dr. David Rock: Like it. Just it made everything make sense and cut a long story short, we ended up putting a lot of neuroscience into that program
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Dr. David Rock: and that kinda gave me the permission to really start reaching out to scientists and studying. And we ended up writing a book called Coaching with the brain in mind. And the reason I wrote that book very self serving is that we had a pile of photocopies. This big. Every class we ran and of of different handouts was like, we gotta organize this stuff. And so we wrote this book that basically took new coaches through all the theories they should understand
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Dr. David Rock: for you know, to coach. And it was literally like, you know, basics of psychology but also adult learning theory and systems theory, right? And you know all these different theories like a dozen different kind of theories and actually showing how neuroscience links them all.
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Dr. David Rock: It's a little out of date now, but still super relevant. It's called coaching with the brain in mind. If you wanna my team wants to put in the chat, but I think it's still available. I don't know but it's anyway, we we built this. And one of the things that was surprising is how little research there was on like, how do you change a large system like, how do you change a school of, you know a a 500, you know, people and a hundred teachers like, how do you change A 1,000 person company had this just nothing out there?
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Dr. David Rock: And so amazing. And I think, you know, we're gonna hopefully spearhead. We are spearheading kind of the research into that space. But kind of large system change. But you know, one of the few people studying it. There's a fantastic university in in Colorado.
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Dr. David Rock: that studies that from a social science lens, and they publish some really great work about kinda you know, how do you get people to adhere to a health strategy? Or how do you get people to adhere to a putting towels on the on the on, you know, hanging up so you can reuse them strategy my hot tip for hotel owners. It's just put towel warmers in. If you put towel warmers in, people will reuse their towels for days.
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Dr. David Rock: it's in in. It's it's such a logical thing. But anyway, what they found is if you put a sign up that says, like 72.5% of people, you know, in this room, you know, reuse that towel you get this massive bump in people, you know, putting the towel up compared to you know, people in this hotel do it, or people, you know, generally do it. They they study these kinds of paradigms, and and what they found is sort of the more personal and the more it felt like everyone was doing this.
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Dr. David Rock: The more these things happen. So so that just became such a critical variable of of, we've got to create these, feel these these kind of movements where it feels like everyone's on board with this as such. A that's such a key variable. But, as I said, no one's really studying kind of whole systems change in that way. One of the fun things that we did sort of by accident is we developed a metric for this very question. We call it we we call Bcp or behavior change percentage
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Dr. David Rock: and we've been collecting data for I don't know. What is it 5 years now more than 5 years. How much Bcp data do we have? So so basically is essentially, you're working with a large group of people, whether it's the entire planet or 10 people right? And there are specific habits. You want them to take up right? Let's say, for 10 people. It's like we want you to. You know, we want you to drink 2 liters of water every day.
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Dr. David Rock: So you what you wanna do is you gonna run your intervention, and then, at least a month after the intervention, you're gonna ask people how many times a week did you drink 2 liters of water right? And maybe if they're managers, they can ask their team. How many times did you see them, you know, do that? And then we're gonna collect that percentage. So it's a behavior change
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Dr. David Rock: percentage across the 10 or
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Dr. David Rock: 1,000 people, right? And we'll have test questions and all these other things. And we. We see, you know, there's very strong variation between different solutions, different modalities
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Dr. David Rock: of delivery, like the worst Bcp is actually in person. Workshops. Turns out because they want off. But we've been collecting this data, that sort of measures habit activation at scale. And it's been a really really interesting metric every year. We study these numbers before our our conference to kinda look for for new insights. But anyway, that's
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Dr. David Rock: couple of couple of thoughts back to you. I mean those like some of the things you're mentioning, like those cards in the hotel, you know, 75 people are reusing their towel. I mean they definitely work on me and others
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Rachel Cardero: something I've appreciated in my work with an Alli over the last decade, plus is taking. You've mentioned so many things already. Insight, positive social pressure, all these different building blocks. But taking it and building, creating some type of architecture. And yeah, I was, gonna I don't think people know how much you love architecture like. Tell us a little bit about when you'd be interested in it.
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Dr. David Rock: I'm I'm one of people often say to me. Wow! You're you're so good at so many things I'm like. No, II generally only do things in public that I'm good at. So you don't really see the things I'm not good at. It turns out I'm terrible at a lot of things one of those is drawing like I just, I have a fixed mindset about it, obviously. I but II still do it. I draw stick figures all the time. I'll get up on a big stage and do terrible drawing, and
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Dr. David Rock: but II guess I could get better if I wanted but it's it's it's it's something I never really got good at. But II actually love architecture, and I think if I'd been half decent at drawing, or be, you know, had lessons or something I probably would've been architect cause I look back I found a book recently of my like my primary school, like second or third grade. I was drawing buildings. I was drawing airplanes. I like I was.
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I was creative. I was architecting different things, and I was fascinating, fascinated with kind of the art of building stuff.
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Dr. David Rock: And I mean, every kid loves Lego. But I built like, you know, worlds. And it is. Yeah. And I was, I was really really interested in, and when I first became an entrepreneur in my twenties I actually got to work with a bunch of architects, and I would I would just be fascinated with the whole process and all the rules and the kind of, and you know, particularly like the way you'd build a blueprint right? And this this blueprint would be like
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Dr. David Rock: would would be this plan without having done any work would be this plan, for you know what you're gonna build. And II didn't do that much work. But I built like 2 or 3 shops and a couple of houses, and, you know, sort of really got involved. I'm sure I annoyed the architects immensely, but but I sort of learned a lot of the principles, and found it fascinating, and I think I probably would have done something, you know, like that. But I just saw this. There's actually so many principles in common.
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Dr. David Rock: you know, if you're gonna if you're gonna build a strategy, a change strategy. Let's let's let's anchor on an example. Let's anchor on a company of 10,000 people, right? So company of 10,000 people fairly spread out. Maybe they're in technology. Maybe they're in energy. Maybe they're in health care. Who knows but 10,000 people?
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Dr. David Rock: They're in one country in North America, across the place you want them to change. You want them to be, let's say you know, significantly, more customer focused right like, how do you architect
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Dr. David Rock: that change? How do you kind of think about that change journey like, is it? Is it a day? Is it a week. Is it a month? Is it 2 years? Is it 5 years? What's the length of time? How do you do it like? That's kind of the question. I've been thinking about sort of imagining a group of people like a building and saying, How do? How do we like? How do we create the right blueprint. So that so that this change initiative actually holds together. That's kind of how how I'm seeing it.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah. So blueprints structural integrity. There's definite similarities between systems change that involves humans and architect like building. Yeah, let's let's start with that monstros integrity. So structural integrity is of of a building's really important. Right? If you're gonna build a you know 2 story house
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Dr. David Rock: you want to last like 50 years, right? Maybe 100 years. You know, you wanted to last a long time. You don't wanna caving in on people when they, you know, play loud music. It's gotta have structural integrity. Right? What does that mean, that means you're following the rules of physics, the laws of physics, right? The laws of engineering, right? There's no like really heavy things without supports. Right? Things are built so that they they stand up right? So structural integrity means that
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Dr. David Rock: everything, such as everything fits together. But it's gonna hold together for a long time. Right? That's structural integrity of a building. And it's interesting. It's it has many different components, structural integrity, right? Think about all the rules of engineering that you have to follow.
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Dr. David Rock: You know, it's not just weight, it's strength, it's lifetime. There's all these. There's dozens and dozens of kind of engineering principles to get to structural integrity. But the essence of it is that it holds together. And what should happen as you build that? Ha! That 2 story house as you build it. Every element, you add, should increase the structural integrity.
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Dr. David Rock: Right? So you put the foundations down doesn't really matter. It's got concrete. It's not gonna fall apart, but you put the walls in. It sort of makes the concrete more robust. Right now you put the outside. It makes the the pill is better, and they put the roof on. So everything, you add makes the whole thing more robust. Right increases its structural integrity.
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Dr. David Rock: That is completely not the case with most change initiatives, right? Most change initiatives. You start out pretty well with a clear strategy. You add something. It makes it a bit kind of fuzzy. You add more. It gets bit fuzzy, add more against people. So they they haven't built a blueprint at the start, right? They haven't worked out the rules of engineering
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Dr. David Rock: to make sure that this actually holds together because your change journey.
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Dr. David Rock: You know, if you want people still having strong insights in 3 years, right? Or 5 years. Right? If you want, people still have strong insights, you're really gonna have to think ahead about, you know, all the different engineering principles. So so in in our work, structural integrity it we we call coherence and coherence
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Dr. David Rock: is literally the structural integrity of ideas. And so. So you know, I can put a blueprint in front of an A, an experienced architect, and say, Hey, do you think this building
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Dr. David Rock: has structural integrity like. Do you think this building will hold together, and they'll look at it for maybe a minute
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Dr. David Rock: at the most, and just give me like a rating out of 10 that. That will be pretty accurate, and probably they probably need 1020 s. Right? Maybe a couple of questions. What's this? How, you know, like, okay, no, that's 5 out of 10. Throw it away. That's an 8 out of 10. Okay, that's a 10 idea. We can do the same, we can look at a blueprint
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Dr. David Rock: right for a change initiative, and in literally under a minute. Look at it and and say, Oh, this this is amazing. This is gonna hold together. This is gonna work or this is like halfway there. But really, it's gonna fall apart in a year.
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Dr. David Rock: Or just, you know, you'll start again right? And so so you need this blueprint that kinda has all these different elements in it. And and and we can look at, you know. Now, having done, you know, we have 300 active partners at any time. Having really studied all these, we can look at this and go. Okay, that that doesn't have enough coherence. There's a there's a real coherence problem. In there.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah. One of the things you know in working with organizations that I think
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Rachel Cardero: they maybe under value. When we first started talking about coherence is just how
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Rachel Cardero: it's simple, and it's simplicity and elegance. So people say, like, Yeah, yeah, everything needs to fit together. Right? Like, yeah, that makes sense. It all needs to make sense together. But it's actually like, really, truly, how things build on each other like literally, you can
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Rachel Cardero: jolt energy into whatever change or transformation you're running by having it built on existing maps. And you know, the big question we got all the time is, can you measure that?
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Rachel Cardero: And yeah, here in, I think
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Dr. David Rock: I think we can. We started on this path about 5 years ago, and then the pandemic hit, and we got distracted and and and the business kind of exploded. But I wanna come back to this for sure, because I think it can be measured. I actually think it needs a science to it, like just as as real and solid, as you know, engineering, you know, having us a science for how much load you can put on a roof. Right? It really needs some numbers. So so it turns out I'll give you some language. This has been really helpful to us.
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Dr. David Rock: Please don't steal this without it, you know, attributing us. But th, there's there's actually a scale, a scale negative to positive. So if you draw so sliding scale, right? Got, you know, 0 in the middle, you got maybe minus 10 on the left mine plus 10 on the right. So so a lot of what happens is someone will say, Oh, we're gonna do this big customer focused initiative. Right? And but we have these 3 other initiatives. You know, we have Lane going on and we have
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Dr. David Rock: you know, a, a, a restructuring going on resizing. You know, we have resizing. And we have lean. And we have a digital transformation going on. But we're gonna add this customer focused strategy.
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Dr. David Rock: So it's we're gonna add this. But what we're gonna do is we're gonna sort of try to minimize the noise in relation to the other elements. So you know, we we're gonna sort of give it some language that sounds a bit like the other elements. Now, what's happened? There is, you're still in the negative side of coherence. Cause you've you've got like, like digital transformation customer focus, downsizing. And you know these other things and lean right? Actually, all have some similar things. You know, involved in them. Right? There was some similar
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Dr. David Rock: kind of elements. And actually, what you'll find is that you're trying to make people do the exact same things across all 4. And but what you're doing by labeling it is, you may be taking it from a minus 10, where it's just overwhelming to like a minus 7 now.
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Dr. David Rock: And so a lot of the time when I hear clients saying, Oh, You know, we we're really working on making everything fit together. What they're doing is making is is they're making it slightly less bad.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah. But it's actually still quite bad.
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Dr. David Rock: And the positive side of this is that you kinda look at all those initiatives. And you say, you know what we're gonna put lean aside. We're gonna put, you know, all these other things aside. We're gonna do our resizing because that completely distracts everyone. We're gonna do the resizing soon. But while we're planning that, we're gonna plan what's happening straight after we're gonna completely immediately launch after resizing into one initiative, right? And this one initiatives gonna have, you know, 3 objectives only
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Dr. David Rock: and we're gonna put all these other things aside. We're gonna have, you know, one focus. So now we're talking about positive coherence. Right now, you're actually like creating more simplicity, more clarity and things holding together. So so we've been thinking about numbers. We think they're about 5 different elements to coherence. So it's like, how well things tie together automatically, how many tangles there are which is essentially 2 things doing the same thing. So yeah, we'll come back to that. You probably see something from us in the next year.
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Dr. David Rock: Maybe my team can put the coherence paper in here because we have. We have published on coherence a few years ago.
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Dr. David Rock: But we do think there's a measure we should probably come back to. There's also some interesting things in that paper like this. This vertical coherence and horizontal coherence, so vertical coherence is like, you know, this new change strategy? How does it tie with your purpose and your mission right? And then the goals people are setting. So so up and down the organization conceptually does. It is a coherent and then horizontally, how does it fit with other similar kinds of initiatives?
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Dr. David Rock: So anyway, that's II think this is a lot more work to do, and as an Institute will invest in in some of that work without any idea what we'll do with it. As usual. But we'll we'll continue to, you know, to work on that. But I think
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Dr. David Rock: so. Coherence is a really really important idea. And you know, if you have a complete learning strategy, and or a leadership development strategy or a culture change strategy. And you don't want us to actually kind of give you some feedback on it. We started doing that in the pandemic. So we can do it. We call it coherence analysis. So you know, if you're interested in talking to someone about that. We can come in and actually assess
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Dr. David Rock: your change strategy, your leadership programs, your your entire learning suite. Whichever it is, we can actually assess it for coherence as well as assess it for bias as well as assess it, for you know, threat, reward as well as assess it for growth mindset. If you're from a company, just put the word coherence in the chat, and someone will reach out to you in the next, you know. 7 days and
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Dr. David Rock: we'll we'll have, you know. We can have a further conversation about these kinds of assessments, and kind of how we think about it. Thanks, Matthew. That was being being fastest. Yeah. But put the word coherence, and maybe a company name that'll help out people know who you are as well, so I should have said that first, Master Maria. But yeah, coherence in your company name we'll follow up. But anyway, that's it is an important thing. So as you architecting, the first thing really is before you build anything, structural integrity, right?
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That's that's what you've got to do.
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Dr. David Rock: You know as as you start, and I guess then the question becomes.
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Dr. David Rock: what are the engineering principles like? What are you know? What are the engineering principles? Kind of what do we need to build to?
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Rachel Cardero: What? What do you think about that, Rachel? I'm doing a lot of a lot of talking here. What do you think some of the engineering principles are? What do you think people need to build to for coherence so definitely? Coherence? And along the lines of coherence. So one of those factors of coherence that I always were emphasizing fluency.
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Rachel Cardero: So, and fluency is essentially the the user experience, the ease of the user experience. How quickly can I understand what you're saying, how quickly, visually reading. So it's about how people experience your change written visually and otherwise. I think also, there's this balance between phs, but we know to be the large mechanisms for organizational change and the alignment there.
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Rachel Cardero: Down to what you mentioned human motivation factors like capacity, motivation and bias. I'm wondering what's coming up for you. I I'm really interested in this idea, David, that you brought up around coherence where it's there are these non obvious things that people are getting wrong, or maybe that they're making assumptions around that aren't correct. And I think, as we point out the engineering principles.
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Dr. David Rock: really talking about those things, what are people assuming is right, but is really wrong. We should highlight that. Yeah, yeah. So so many things, lots of different directions there. So so, you know, firstly, like
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Dr. David Rock: III think the fluency concept is really important. So fluency is like in a building in a house. Fluency is like literally like
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Dr. David Rock: how how much you kind of pulled into the house and how natural it flows. It's really like the natural flow of things like you go naturally through a hallway, and and there's a kitchen. Everything flows in the kitchen, you know, like things are on the wrong side of the kitchen. You're having to walk far right? And the the bedrooms and the bathrooms all kind of so everything fits together just the right way. So it's similar to coherence. It's it's but it's sort of the user experience of coherence.
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Dr. David Rock: Is fluency. And in a house. It's literally like, you know, how much do people love living in it? Right in a change journey? It's literally how much do people love? You know, working with these ideas.
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Dr. David Rock: you know. I remember when we launched clarity, energy, success at Microsoft some 7 or 8 years ago. Now I introduced this to the top 600 people, and they were planning to give people tools about a month later to kinda go and start talking about it. There were 600 really see people and
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Dr. David Rock: and you know Joe Whitting Hill, the the the head of talent, then at Microsoft, you know, called me really soon after and said, Yeah, we're gonna do something faster, because everyone's immediately using the idea is there? They love them so much. I'm getting all these calls, you know, literally, the next week I wanna give a talk right now about create clarity, generate energy, deliver success as our leadership model. Like, I wanna talk about this immediately. It's so great and and so that's fluency.
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Dr. David Rock: That's high fluency. People just love to be in that house. They love to be in those ideas right? When they share these ideas. Other people have insights right? Other people go into it towards state. Other people go. Oh, wow! So
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Dr. David Rock: we've done some specific research on that, as it relates to leadership principles. And you know the things are sticky, meaningful, and and and relevant. Right needs to be very sticky, meaningful, is kind of coherence in another way, and and really relevant to the person as you kind of designing a leadership model.
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Dr. David Rock: but that that going back to fluency. Fluency is just literally, people are called into these ideas, and they they love working with these ideas. In in that way. And another principle is
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Dr. David Rock: and this is this is, you know, you can really think of this in some ways, in an engineering way, is is as you mentioned. Ph, S. It's not phf, it's phs, priorities, habits, and systems. And this is this is sort of a way of getting humans moving.
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Dr. David Rock: This is sort of looking at how you get humans moving. And this is works at an individual level, too.
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Dr. David Rock: This is. This is a very sort of scalable idea, you know, works at the individual level. It's how much is something a priority. Right? If you want to be healthier.
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Dr. David Rock: how much? How do you make that a priority for the person
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Dr. David Rock: and separately to that.
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Dr. David Rock: How do you get people to to really build habits around it? Now, this is where you sort of get into this question of well, which habits, how many, how quickly you know all this stuff? And that's a those are really important questions.
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Dr. David Rock: And often the answers are not obvious to that.
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Dr. David Rock: You want people to be more customer focused. It's not obvious which are the right habits, and in which order.
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Dr. David Rock: you get people really need. It takes some real work to research that takes us anywhere from like 6 to 6 months to like 4 years to answer those questions sometimes. So so you got sort of, how do you get people to really care?
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Dr. David Rock: How do you get people to really build habits. Now, this has to be the right habits. You have to embed them in individuals just right
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Dr. David Rock: with the inside and positive pressure right? But then you also have to scale them just right kind of across that system. So so that's the habits. And then the systems level is like, how do you keep keep people focused on those habits and those priorities? So it's just kind of a way of looking at
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Dr. David Rock: sort of the more marketing and communication component, which is but but looking at it as getting people to really prioritize this. then the real change component is the habits piece getting people really build those habits.
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Dr. David Rock: And then the systems piece is supporting it. And, to be honest, if you flash a change blueprint in front of me.
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Dr. David Rock: that's the first thing I'm gonna look for, the first thing I'm gonna look for is up. Show me the first thing people see to make this a priority. And I'm gonna look at. It's either gonna be sticky, meaningful and and relevant, or it's not
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Dr. David Rock: and mostly it's not. I'm gonna be like, oh, that's overwhelming. People are immediately turned off.
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Dr. David Rock: Well, that's super clear. That's super compelling. Right? People are immediately excited.
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Dr. David Rock: Right? So what's the immediate response people have to your priority? I'll be looking at that they'll be looking really closely at a very important question, how are you actually gonna build habits?
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Dr. David Rock: Now? It's starting to see some companies doing this on their own better. II think we've been out talking about this a while now, but most of the time, like 90 to 95% of the time. I look at a company's habit activation strategy. And it's not a habit activation strategy. Right? It's it's it's a communication strategy. It's not a habit activation strategy.
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Dr. David Rock: And there's a real science to habit activation. In fact, you're gonna see a webinar. If you're interested in this topic, you should watch the session coming up in a few weeks. We're launching the whole concept of a habit activation platform. It's something we've been working on, probably for 26 years, but really deeply. The last 2 years.
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Dr. David Rock: Habit activation platform is not an Lms.
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Dr. David Rock: and it's not an lxp, so it's not a learning management system. And it's not a learning experience system which is an evolution of that. It's a habit activation platform which really focuses on the central question of, are we really getting people to build habits here?
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Dr. David Rock: So it focuses on inside, it focuses on social pressure, focuses on doing all that over time. It's a really different idea. So so the central thing I'd look at if you put a blueprint in front of me. The central thing I would look at is show me you have an activation strategy. And I can tell in under a minute, usually under a very quick time.
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Dr. David Rock: That's not a habit activation strategy. Or it might be right, and then we we might want to tweak it a bit with you like that's pretty good. Let's try this. Let's let's put it in this order. Let's let's chop it down to 3 things. Let's spread it out this way. And and now it's a reasonable habit activation strategy. What's fascinating is, it's technology independent. It's kind of independent. Like you, you could build a habit activation strategy based on just flashcards, and you know, send it out to
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Dr. David Rock: retail, you know, 1,000 retail stores. You can build one based on high tech content. You can build one on low tech on medium tech. It's not about the technology really
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Dr. David Rock: although the technology can help. But it's it's really about
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Dr. David Rock: are you creating insight socially over time? That's kind of the habit piece. So priorities, habit systems. That's sort of the central thing I would look at when looking at someone's someone's changed journey.
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Dr. David Rock: But we'd also look at co-cerence, which is separate right? And then fluency. The fluency is kind of inside of
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Dr. David Rock: priorities. And then, you know, and then we'd also look at
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Dr. David Rock: a big one you mentioned, and we can get to this. I guess if you're interested. The big one mentioned is, are we aligning with capac human capacity issues like giving people the right amount and the way they can digest. Are we working within the human bias is the right way?
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Dr. David Rock: And are we motivating people the right way so kind of capacity, motivation and bias is some of the deeper principles that we've got to kind of align to. But I've been doing a lot of talking. I'm sure there's some questions. Anyone have any questions? We still got a good 15 min left. Anyone, have any questions on what we've been talking about so far. Throw those in the chat. I think there's a. QA. As well. I guess we'll see them in the Q. And a. Put them in the QA. Or in the chat, whatever you like.
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Rachel Cardero: As we're waiting for those questions to come in. I see a couple coming through. But just wanna echo anytime I'm working with an organization. It's that habit activation piece that's missing more often than not. And it was, I mean so many times we talked about this earlier at this hour. But if you, even if you have this great change, and there's no way for you to express it, to do something.
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Rachel Cardero: You're lacking that feeling of self-efficacy, you just you really have to design for action. And that was a huge part of one of the newest products that we have lead. I wonder if you wanna mention that for a second, David? Because I mean thinking about how leaders take action, the habits that they need, the habits that they need to create change and transformation at scale?
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Dr. David Rock: Are we critical in thinking about the key habits. And the IP we put in.
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Dr. David Rock: yeah, yeah, I'll apologize in advance to people who've been following us for a while because we've been talking about. Well, it's the most significant change for us. In 26 years we've we've been through a few changes,
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Dr. David Rock: and and the last big one was 7 or 8 years ago, where we realized we should modularize everything into these 30 day experiences. And now we're up to a few 1 million people learning our work each year. But we think we can add a 0 even 2 to that with what we're doing now. So essentially, what we we sort of always avoid it like building a sort of platform or something like that. Because we didn't think the technology was there to actually really
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Dr. David Rock: create insight and make it social and and and so hold people over time. What we've seen is the technology is caught up specifically with, especially with the, you know advent of AI and some of the things that can do. So we we we we had a whole lot of organization. Say to us, we've got a coherence problem which is ironic because we've been essentially building and sharing these 30 day modules across the whole organization for about 7
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Dr. David Rock: years now. So so you know, if you're if you're Akamai, for example, you got 10,000 people. Folks are learning about growth mindset first
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and then they might learn about inclusion. Then they might learn about speaking up. And you know each of these for these 30 day experiences.
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Dr. David Rock: And and we call these whole of company habit activation strategies. So no one else is really doing that. And that's been sort of the core of our business. So so you know, an organizational call doesn't say we wanna be more customer focused, and we'll say, alright, great! Let's let's put in growth mindset first across the whole company for a month couple of months later. Let's put in improve or asking for feedback couple of months later. Let's put in team around site safety, and it will really impact the organization.
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Dr. David Rock: But we're having this coherence problem, which is that companies were saying, this is great. But you know, we we're still doing this leadership program through such and such a provider and we started to get bit of model model right? And we're like, well, we've built custom leadership programs for some amazing companies that have gone to thousands of people incredibly successful?
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Dr. David Rock: Could we? Could we build kind of a standard.
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Dr. David Rock: a set of essential habits that all people, managers at all levels in a company should have so really interesting challenge. Are there a set of common habits that whether you're a frontline manager or CEO that everyone should actually have, but just in slightly different ways. And we found there was and so we spent the last year and a half or so building this this solution. That takes people over time through the foundational things. You would want to be a better manager or leader.
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Dr. David Rock: And the reason we did this is this is kind of a place that all managers should start, and then you can come and add on, okay, let's do a 30 day sprint on growth mindset. Let's do it. And everything now fits together. So we were trying to solve our own coherence problem, particularly with some of our larger partners. So that everything you're learning as a manager now ties in with what you're learning about, say allyship or psych safety, or these other things. So we're trying to create this massive coherence. And
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Dr. David Rock: what we've ended up doing aside from arguing massively for a year and a half what we've ended up doing is building a 6 month experience. It's only 15 min a week. Of you slowly learning the 9 most important habits for for leading at any level. Now, this creates common language across all levels
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Dr. David Rock: of the business. Right? Creates really powerful really powerful like knowledge sharing because it's not in cohorts. So you getting the knowledge sharing and the the retention benefits of like offsides. But you're doing it digitally. But you get any overtime and real insight benefits of coaching. But you're doing it with with, you know, with creating
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Dr. David Rock: groups. And you're not losing people. Cause because, you know, external coaching can increase, you know, losing people. And but you get in the scale and cost of e-learning. But you're actually getting people to do it. So we sort of solve for the downsides of offsites and coaching and and and normal e-learning, and created this platform over time. And then I think, what's gonna really make it work is we've created this
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Dr. David Rock: This tool called Niles
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Dr. David Rock: and Niles is a neuro, intelligent leadership enhancer. So Niles is a character that you ask any question, hey? I've got this. I've I'm having conflict with this team member. What do I do? And Niles will actually tell you. Based on all our research. What the most effective thing is you can do? You can ask another question, hey? Can you give me that? And like, can you tell me the one thing I should focus on, or can give me, that in 100 words? Or
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Dr. David Rock: can you give me like an example and take me through it. Niles will do all that. So we've powered up this AI with everything we've published, and and all this incredible insight, and Niles can, can actually coach you through things or just answer things.
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Dr. David Rock: And so what we're seeing coming very, very soon is, you know, people go through this 6 month experience, but also at any time they can just pick up the phone. Say, Hey, Niles? You know, I'm about to go into onboard. A new team member, what do I do? And out comes a really simple
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Dr. David Rock: set of like, you know, you might be tempted to do this. Try this instead. So this is kind of immediacy. So that's that's where we're going. And all of it based on, you know the research that we've done. So. That's that's how we're solving for coherence is that you can see where excited it's the craziest thing we actually also, for the first time in 26 years, have opened our core programs to the public.
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Dr. David Rock: So you can actually do this program if you're not in a company. We we that's not the case with all of our other solutions. But you can now do this. 6 month experience in a cohort, and I know the first cohort sold out really quickly. We've just opened the second cohort. My team can probably put that in the chat. Anyway, that's that's kind of how we're we're solving for
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Dr. David Rock: for coherence, and it's a it's, you know. This will be a 5 to 10 year journey for us, I'm sure. But the you know the vision is, you know you open your calendar in the morning, and you see it'll pop up. Hey? You've got this
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Dr. David Rock: meeting coming up with this person according to their scarf profile and yours, which we've read automatically. This is what you'll probably accidentally do. But why don't you try this instead? So really, neuro intelligent nudges as well as this neuro intelligent coach. All based on the the you know, the insights that you've learned around scarf and seeds, and this sort of thing. So that's that's where we're going. It's kind of that's kind of fun keeping me very very engaged. So I what I hear is
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Rachel Cardero: we're creating tons and tons of architect skills in all these leaders that we'll be going through that will be able to better manage themselves and their focus and coherence slowly, we are getting questions. One quick thing before we do take some questions that I see some great ones coming in. Just if you're from an organization and you want to know about leaders
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Dr. David Rock: you want someone to like, show you a demo show. You Niles show you through the platform. Just put your your just put the word lead led, and your company name, and someone will follow up with you fairly quickly.
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Dr. David Rock: Just put lead and your company name, if you're from a company and you wanna know more about lead. We're also doing a demo product, Demo. If you just wanna sort of drop into something we doing a like 25 min?
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Dr. David Rock: 25 min demo every week or so that should be on the website, and on, lead is being launched in about another. Just a bit more than a week it'll be inside the platform. It's we're doing final testing. So you'll get to. You'll get to play with it. Look forward to your feedback
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all right. Questions. What do we got?
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Dr. David Rock: Alright? So we have one from Ted. Hi, Ted, asking about readiness. How we think about readiness. Do you need readiness? Is it a precondition for habit formation? How do you help people get ready. So there's these 2 sort of directions. You can go with habit, habit activation. You can sort of go into trying to assess, or you can go into trying to develop right? And it's sort of like it's sort of like, you know, this whole thing of like
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Dr. David Rock: you know? Do do, do do you see the problem? Or do you study the solution right like, do you do dig into the source of problems? Or do you do appreciative inquiry and try to understand where people are trying to go right. It's sort of philosophically, you know, we're on the kind of stranger tractor side of things like, let's put in a stranger tractor and pull people towards it. Also, then assess if they're ready, so what makes people ready what those strange tractors are to draw from physics what the stranger Tractors are is like
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Dr. David Rock: the CEO saying, this is important right, the CEO is saying, if I run into you anywhere in the building. I'm gonna ask you about this right? That's a strange attractor. The the CEO is saying, hey, this is the most important thing that we're doing for the next 30 days. Right? I need you to focus on this. And you know, I'm gonna check in with you about it. And
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Dr. David Rock: your manager saying, Hey, we, you know, I know we got a lot on, but we're gonna focus on this for 10 min every week for the next month. That's literally what a change initiative might be. 5 or 10 min a week for a month. We're gonna actually focus on. I'm gonna ask you these questions, hey? It might be annoying, but we're gonna do it. So the strange attracted to me are the like, the supports and the structures that you put in that creates readiness.
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Dr. David Rock: More so than sort of assessing readiness. And it's just sort of the more you get all those things in place. The more you get like 90 to 95% of a large audience engaging in your initiative. You know, we've had 96% of 100,000 people engage fully in initiative in, you know, in one example. So so you can really get a lot of people engaging. And to be honest, what happens is other people engaging is what makes everyone engage back to that kind of, you know, one principle.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, I think I see most organizations spending a lot of time gauging readiness instead of creating it like you're talking about where it's yeah, measure it. Take the first 12 months of your transformation, create a before and an after time, or that sandwich those first 12 months and give everybody the learning they need create, the the attractors, the senior leadership engagement. That
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Rachel Cardero: is I. We have another question in here. How do you work with corporations that already have established Hr policies, culture contributions, priority skills for people management.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, thanks, Natalia. Good question. The answer is, we wake up and start, because that's every company. That's every company. And you know, sometimes we'll start with this coherence analysis, right where we'll actually assess, like your whole talent pathway from talent, acquisition to performance, management, to learning and development, to workforce planning. Right? So the 4 sort of big we we think of those, the 4 big chunks, right talent, acquisition, performance management, learning and development workforce planning. We'll look at them, and we'll look at them from the perspective of
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all your, your, your policies and processes.
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Dr. David Rock: How much coherence is there, how much bias is there is a growth mindset or fixed mindset, you know, being nudged. Are they creating threats or rewards? So we can look at all of it across all of that's a big project. Usually it's a bit more narrow, like a company will say, Hey, can you tell us how much bias there is in our recruiting practice. Accidentally, you know. Show us where there's accidental bias in our whole recruiting process, so we might sort of take one element and sort of one chunk
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Dr. David Rock: but you can do all of it. But so sometimes we'll start like that. We'll kind of assess all that. We do a lot of research briefings for Hr teams and executive teams on a particular topic like right now, a lot of companies are saying we need to really rethink performance management. And so, you know, performance management is not encouraging quality conversations. Can you come in and talk to us about in our Hr team? About about, you know, performance management. So we'll come in and talk about. You know what it looks like
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Dr. David Rock: to architect as an important word to architect, a performance management, strategy with quality conversations as the thing you're solving for.
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Like, if you if you're trying to solve for quality conversations, this is how you'd architect it. And it looks really different. What most performance management systems solve for is is is the perception of paying people fairly.
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Dr. David Rock: They're trying to solve for fear of people feeling like they're paid fairly. What ends up happening is an unintended consequence is actually really poor quality conversations. And no one feeling like they're being paid fairly. It's really it's really weird. But we do. You know, we do a whole briefing on that. And then we end up kind of designing these strategies. I saw someone from Signa in the chat. We designed signers your whole performance management strategy actually won an award.
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Dr. David Rock: and it is like a really different way of of doing it some years back. But that that that's a piece. If you're interested in that work, just put on you from our company. Put performance management. We'll get someone to reach out, chat with you about kind of a briefing, or, you know, thinking about that. Just put your company, name and performance management in the chat. But that's
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Dr. David Rock: a lot of folks have. Everyone has existing policies. So sometimes we'll come in and kind of, you know. Show you. Look, this is the area to start
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Dr. David Rock: or or let's assess all of it. Or often we'll start. Probably the most powerful and common place that we'll start with. The organization is one of 2 things, either
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Dr. David Rock: growth mindset. So we'll put in place like a growth mindset initiative across the company because it kind of creates fertile lines everywhere.
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Dr. David Rock: We do that a lot or or we'll come in and reinvent their whole approach to leadership, and as a result, reinvent like the the little bit of the mission and the purpose and the culture works. And we'll create a new architecture. For how people should, you know interact?
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Dr. David Rock: So that's often how how we start. We call that kind of leadership principles.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah. And I know we're getting close to the top of the hour. I'm wondering, David, if you have a final piece of advice. So we talked about coherent structural integrity as you think about that architecture and the big bad wolf blowing on everybody's, you know. Transformation House. What's your piece of advice?
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, I mean, look, one thing. So it's a bit self serving. But we have a 6 month program for for folks who are passionate about really learning this work. It's called the certificate in the foundations of neuro leadership. It's a mouthful, but it's literally a certificate in neuro leadership. And it's a 6 month journey as an individual contributor for your own learning. To really understand the science. So if you're if you're a change agent.
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Dr. David Rock: you know, get yourself into one of those we run it. I think twice a year. My team can put that in the chat, but you'll find it in our education programs at neural leadership. Com.
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Dr. David Rock: But the certificate in the foundation, your relationship, like a long way of saying, do something that really gets you educated about the deeper science here. If you're from a company. Get your company to be a corporate member. We've done lots and lots of webinars on on coherence. We've published lots of papers, you know, as a corporate member, you get access to tons of content, to self educate
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Dr. David Rock: on coherence. A lot of our partners do that. So corporate membership is a, you know, is a really good idea, actually not very expensive. The whole talent team gets access to to all our research over, you know all this time. So corporate membership is really worth exploring, I guess. I'm gonna do it again. If you're interested in corporate membership just put your company name and corporate membership in the chat. Someone will will follow up with you, but that's that's a good way to kind of get access to tons and tons of research
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Dr. David Rock: to really understand coherence and lots of case studies. So I think, the other thing is, we're really happy to do no cost briefing to your company, you know, if you're a mid to large organization, and you want to understand this, you know, bring us in to just brief your whole Hr. Team on the science of coherence that you know, and some of the things that we've talked about today. But you know, in wrapping up, and we'll hand back to Shelby
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Dr. David Rock: in wrapping up. II think that company change should be studied like engineering is studied.
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Dr. David Rock: I think the
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Dr. David Rock: like, you know, organizational change should have the same kind of level of rigor and data that you know, architecture has. We should have real metrics for coherence in all the different ways. Real metrics for fluency.
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Dr. David Rock: You know, real metrics for Phs, real metrics for the quality of habit activation strategy.
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Dr. David Rock: I think we're, gonna you know, continue to work on that stuff over the next over the next few years. So that's that's a really important really important to me. But, Rachel, thanks for the the great conversation. Super important one for us to keep, you know. Keep digging into thanks. Everyone for being here. Your great questions, and feel free to reach out if we can. We can help with anything. So thanks so much. Rachel. Hand back to Shelby. 30 s of announcements stay on for a 30 s of announcements.
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Thanks so much. Bye-bye.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah. Awesome. Thank you again, Rachel and David, for a wonderful conversation just to wrap things up quickly. We are gonna share a poll. So let us know how analy can help you in the future. As David mentioned our second lead cohort is gonna be launching April eighteenth. So if you're interested in joining the next group, our team will share that information again. We've had wonderful progress so far, and the for in the first cohort, and we're looking forward to seeing how it continues to evolve
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Shelby Wilburn: insider exchange. This is specifically for senior executives. If you enjoy your brain at work, live, we think you'll love the insider program. It's an exclusive opportunity where you can enjoy benefits such as first look a new research round table discussions with leading executives and helping us craft new innovation. So if you're interested in that, we will share a link as well. Also, we're looking to expand. If you wanna host an Ni event, we really wanna continue to partner with our community. So
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Shelby Wilburn: if your organization is interested in hosting an event with Nli in the future. Please check out that link in the chat, and we look forward to the opportunity to continue to build positive relationships with organizations globally. Lastly, the podcast as always, if you enjoyed today's conversation, you can hear this one and others
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Shelby Wilburn: on our podcast your brain at work wherever you listen to. And this is where we say farewell. So on behalf of our team behind the scenes. Thank you so much for being here happy international Women's Day, and have a wonderful weekend. We'll see you next week.