Learn from the Past, Lead for the Future Juneteenth, a day commemorating the end of slavery in the United States, offers profound lessons for today's leaders. This insightful webinar will uncover how Juneteenth's legacy can inspire and guide us in creating a more equitable and inclusive workplace. Key Takeaways Discover the power of allyship in dismantling systemic barriers and fostering a culture of belonging. Learn actionable strategies for mitigating bias and promoting equitable decision-making. Understand the importance of building equitable systems that create lasting change and opportunity for all.
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Shelby Wilburn: Welcome back to another week of your brain at work. Live! I'm your host, Shelby Wilburn, for our regulars. We're happy to have you back. And for our newcomers, we're excited to have you here with us today. For the 1st time
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Shelby Wilburn: in this episode we're reflecting on the Juneteenth holiday. We'll uncover how juneteenth legacy can inspire and guide us in creating a more equitable and inclusive workplace. Now, as I quickly share some housekeeping notes, drop in the comments or chat where you're joining in from today.
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Shelby Wilburn: we are recording today's session. So if you're interested in a replay, be on the lookout for an email later today that email is going to include a survey for feedback as well as a number of resources that are aligned with today's conversation. And we suggest putting your phone on, do not disturb quitting out of your email and messaging apps. So you can really get the most out of today's discussion. And it's also going to help with your audio and video quality. And lastly, we love interaction. So feel free to share your thoughts and comments with us in the chat. Now to get this show underway, I'm going to introduce our speakers.
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Shelby Wilburn: A long history of driving change and building culture in large, complex organizations has given her deep expertise in DEI practices and principles, especially in the area of communications. In fact, she broke barriers as one of the first, st and for a long time only Black Sea level speechwriters in the Fortune 100. Her 3 Ted presentations, challenging businesses to get serious about inclusion have collectively over 2.5
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Shelby Wilburn: 1 million views, her superpowers applying neuroscience to solve DEI challenges, building actionable DEI frameworks and brokering, honest DEI conversations among top leaders.
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Shelby Wilburn: Please join me in welcoming analyze global head of Dei Janet M. Stovall.
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Shelby Wilburn: Great to have you here today, Janet.
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Janet Stovall: Great to be here. Looking forward to this conversation.
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Shelby Wilburn: Nice and our moderator for today is a public speaker who engages on a variety of topics surrounding Dei leadership and women in the workplace, not to mention her Tedx, on Talk, on banishing the Miss Congeniality complex.
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Shelby Wilburn: She's also the author of the book. Would the world be better if we were all alike.
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Shelby Wilburn: Her expertise in leadership, development, diversity, strategic planning, and Hr. Led her to join Nla, where she engages in client-facing, consulting, and facilitating teams to support organizational programs, a warm welcome to our distinguished faculty of leadership and performance at Nla. Christy Pruitt Haynes. Welcome back, Christy, happy to have you, and I will pass it over to you.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Wonderful. Thank you so much and great to be here as always. So Hello! Everyone welcome to what I know is going to be a phenomenal conversation, partially because I just love doing these with Janet. She is absolutely one of my favorite people, and think this is such an important and impactful topic.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: So Janet, before we even get started, would love to know what are your overall kind of thoughts and disclaimers as we jump into this conversation honestly about a holiday and a day that a lot of people may not know that much about. So would love for you to sort of kick us off with kind of explaining what this is about, and and sharing any initial thoughts you have before we jump into some specific questions.
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Janet Stovall: Okay, well, thank you, Christy. We know most of us at this point know what Juneteenth is about. It was when the enslaved people in Galveston, Texas, found out 2 and a half years after the Emancipation Proclamation that they were free.
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Janet Stovall: And that's easy to find and look up
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Janet Stovall: what we wanted to do was make this holiday relevant for a lot of people. Because at the end of the day we're going to talk today. This conversation is about Juneteenth. So we will focus on things that are unique to Juneteenth black people and racism. And we are aware that there's a whole multitude of issues and identities in DEI. But this is Juneteenth. And you know it is sort of an interesting
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Janet Stovall: line to walk when you do these things as an organization because you don't want to be exploitative. And I worked really hard, Christy, to make sure that was this. But we do believe that Nli has some unique expertise. And our job is to further the conversation. And so what we hope to do today is give you a way to look at Juneteenth, even if you thought Juneteenth wasn't for you.
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Janet Stovall: This is a way to look at it, and maybe think about the fact that it is for you. So that's where we are, and I'm looking forward to having this conversation with Christine.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Wonderful. And I completely agree, Janet, you know our goal is to truly make this relevant to everybody, to more people, to more organizations and to understand, both the impact, what it's about and how we can move forward with this.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: So as we think about it, we're gonna go through 3 different lessons. You know we love the number 3 here at Nl. So we will go through 3 lessons, and have, I think, a truly engaging conversation about leadership lessons from Juneteenth
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: that everybody can use. So this is for today's leader. So we're gonna make it relevant for each of us.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: And the 1st thing we want to talk a bit about is allyship.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Which is again, I think, a phrase, a question or a concept that many people are familiar with, but we would love to look at it through the lens of Juneteenth. And and what this means. So, Janet, I would love to hear from you. What does it mean to truly be an ally in today's workplace? And how does allyship work? And connect with Juneteenth and dismantling systemic racism.
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Janet Stovall: Okay. So Juneteenth, we know, was the end of some systemic racism.
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Janet Stovall: but not all.
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Janet Stovall: but in terms of laws. The systematic racism disappeared because the laws disappeared. But systematic
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Janet Stovall: racism and systematic inequity. Its legacy is systemic racism and systemic inequity that didn't go away. And it does show up in the workplace. And basically it shows up at 3 levels. It shows up in individuals as biased, internalized, and
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Janet Stovall: explain to other people and racial stereotypes. The individual part, it shows up interpersonally as microaggressions and behaviors of excluding people. In Nla we always talk about in-group and out-group that out-group mentality, pushing people to the other side. That's how
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Janet Stovall: systemic racism can show up. And it also shows up institutionally with bias policies and a bunch of inequitable practices.
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Janet Stovall: So the question is.
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Janet Stovall: what does it mean to be an ally? Today's workplace? Well, 1st of all, I think we know today's workplace in terms of diversity, equity, and inclusion is a little bit tricky, so it was a little bit more difficult now, in some ways, I'm sure, but it's also more necessary, because the thing is this
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Janet Stovall: allyship is not kinship, it's not friendship.
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Janet Stovall: it is leveraging your privilege in the moment for somebody who has less privilege than you, and everybody hates the word privilege, but understand that it is simply something that something that you have, that you didn't. You were just born into, and it is something that you have in situations, because some people have it more than others the dominant culture. But
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Janet Stovall: even Christy and I will have privilege in some situations. And so the point is knowing that you have it and leveraging it. So allyship is active. It's not something you have. It's something you do. And in the workplace, the way you deal with it on those 3 levels as an individual.
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Janet Stovall: as you can examine your own biases and try to mitigate your own biases. Interpersonally, you can confront those microaggressions and those biases, and you can amplify marginalized voices. And then, institutionally, you can advocate for equitable practices and policies. And we're going to talk about that a little bit further down the line. But the end of the day allyship is a journey
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Janet Stovall: of continuous learning and continuing continuous work. You never stop being an ally. You also can't call yourself an ally. Somebody else has to call you that. And in this workplace, right now, with the inequity we deal with a lot of things that's seeming like it's going backwards. Allyship is more important than ever.
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Janet Stovall: So, Christy, I'd to. I'd love to your thoughts on that.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Yes, first, st I completely agree with everything that you say it, and you know what's what's interesting is so often when people hear about allyship. They only think of it in terms, and and, as you pointed out, they think of it in terms of being someone's friend.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: and and that is, you know, being friends at work. It's wonderful, but it's not necessary. And I think you know more specifically when we think about being an ally, if we limit our thoughts to this is something I can do for my friends. Then we miss out on the true opportunity there.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: One other thing I'd love to say because I think a lot of people, and you said it as well. The word privilege is a charged word for so.
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Janet Stovall: Meaning.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: It is a triggering word.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: and it shouldn't be, in my opinion, because, again, privilege isn't about whether or not you are a good or bad person. Privilege simply is, and there are situations where each of us have it, and I like to think of privilege as the assumptions people make about you when you enter a situation? Are they automatically positive? Or do they tend to be a bit more negative? And we can't control the way other people think of us. What we can do, though, is acknowledge that.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: and then use those assumptions to benefit others. So as a quick example.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: And this is something that happened years ago, and I think it's a great example of how you know, as Janet said, in different situations, everybody is going to have privilege. So I was going to a going to a party. It was a family reunion, and but it wasn't my family, so why, I was even there, you know, is is kind of a a.
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Janet Stovall: Because you're a good.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Sorry you're good friend.
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Janet Stovall: Okay, exactly.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Exactly, but as I was going there, and I had another friend with me, and you know our friend, who was actually a member of this family said, Yes, y'all come, have a great time.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Everybody who was in this family reunion looked like me. This was a family black family, so as I walk in, even though I wasn't a member of that family, even though I didn't know anyone there, I was instantly welcomed. It was assumed that I belonged there. So I walk in, and they're, you know, telling me the food is over here, and we're playing space over there, and all of those things I've had privilege. In that moment
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: the friend I brought with me looks very different. She was a white woman, great friend of mine, but when she walked in the way she was greeted was, Wait! Why are you here? She was looked at as an outsider, and the truth is, both of us were outsiders. Neither of us technically belonged there, but I was given privilege in that situation because of my demographic traits.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: and the same thing happens, I think, so often in the workplace. Some people are just assumed to belong, so they are given that privilege. So what I did in this family reunion is, I say, oh, I was invited by so and so I mentioned the person who invited me, and this is my friend. She's with me. She's great people. You're going to love her. She actually is a better space player than I will ever be.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: so I used that privilege to now bring her into the conversation to help her be accepted in the same way that I automatically was so again in that moment I was acting as her ally, and in most situations you wouldn't look at me and say, This is somebody who has privilege, but I recognize that I did, and I used it, you know, in that moment to
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: to bring her in and to extend it to her. And I think that is sort of what we, you know want to do. It's the way we want to think about it, and the way we want to acknowledge me having privilege in that moment wasn't a good or bad thing. It simply was what I chose to do with it, I think, is what's most important.
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Janet Stovall: Have, the.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: That's yes. Go ahead.
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Janet Stovall: No, you go ahead, I interrupted you. I thought you ended there. Go ahead.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Oh, I was, I was just to say, you know, I think that's sort of the charge that we all have. So Janet would love, to hear your thoughts on that.
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Janet Stovall: It's funny that you said that, because usually, when I say that privilege is situational, if there are people of color, especially women of color black women in the audience. They're kind of looking at me sideways, going now. I don't believe that. And the example I use. I've done this in front of large groups. I'll say everybody in the room stand up. If you know who the divine 9 are.
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Janet Stovall: Invariably
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Janet Stovall: the black people will stand up.
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Janet Stovall: and a few white people saying it usually, but usually it's all the only black people in the room, and I'll say, you know, the divine 9 are the 9 historically black sororities and fraternities. And they go. I said, now.
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Janet Stovall: if you were in a meeting, those of you who are still sitting down, if you were in a meeting with any of those sororities or fraternities, what do you think you'd feel like
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Janet Stovall: you? We would have privilege in that moment, and that usually people kind of sit and go. I said we had privilege. When they stood up. You automatically felt like you. There was a conversation that happened somewhere that you weren't part of. I said. So. That's my point. I'm saying that to everybody that when we say privilege we're not saying that it's a bad thing. It's just a thing it is how you use it
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Janet Stovall: is what makes it good or bad, cause you can use it for good, or you can use it for evil, and we and allyship is using it for good. So yeah.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Absolutely. And and I think you know. And and, Janet, you know this better than probably anybody on here, Dei, right now, you know, is such a
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: has such a stigma attached to it, because people like to think of conversations like privilege, about good as good or bad. They like to think about biases, either good or bad, and I think when we can get to the point of saying it is what it is, it simply exists. Let's acknowledge it. And now let's figure out how to use it for good, how to use it to further everyone and to provide equity for for others.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: That to me is when people can sort of, you know, sit back and kind of breathe that sigh of relief and say, Oh, maybe this isn't the bad thing that everyone's telling us it is. Maybe it really is just something to acknowledge, discuss, and figure out how to use.
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Janet Stovall: And you made a very good point. You know, with what's going on in the diversity, equity and inclusion space. Right now, if you think about this backlash, you know, 2020, for all the wrong reasons. We had. A very positive, probably one of the biggest surges and interest in diversity, equity, and inclusion in the workplace. And now here we are, 2024, and it looks like it's going backwards the other way further back than it was
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Janet Stovall: to tell you it has not, it has not. We are still further ahead now than we were in 2020, but it feels bad, but part of what is making that happen is, there are people who feel like they are losing privilege, so they may in a minute say, I don't have privilege. But that's what's causing this. And it is an extreme reaction. And there's a fear of that. And so privilege is real. And people, you know, if you have it a lot of times. You don't know you do.
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Janet Stovall: but allyship is accepting that. You have it, because at the end of the day
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Janet Stovall: we wouldn't need allyship if there was not systemic racism, I mean, on all levels. But we're talking about racism today. We would need allies if systemic racism didn't exist. That's the reason you need them. And so that's the reason it's not a meritocracy. For all those reasons
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Janet Stovall: I I hate that people feel like they can't say they have privilege I love. When people go I have privilege, and now I'm going to use it. But you can't use it. If you don't admit that you have it, and I wish wish all of us would.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Yes, yes, and I think the more we talk about it in terms of everybody has it in certain situations, hopefully, that can help sort of take away some of the the stigma that's been attached to it, in my opinion, wrongly. Because I will never say to somebody, you are wrong for being treated well in this situation because they aren't. That is just something that it exists for a million reasons that we don't have enough podcast to go through all of them.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: But again, once you acknowledge it and then start using it. That's when we really see. Okay, this isn't good or bad. It simply is. Let's let's lean into it. But you know again, as you say it, it starts with that acknowledgement, and and I think when we can all do that it really it really opens up the opportunity for for everybody to be allies.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: And I would love to go to the chat and bring up a point from the chat Bridget mentioned
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: about institutional sort, let's see. Sorry. Just lost the comment. There. Here we go, institutional privilege, and and it started to me thinking about some of those systems that exist within institutions that also
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: we need to think about ways of dismantling and ways of acknowledging how that's affecting people so. And, Janet, you talked some about, you know, both interpersonal institution and and individual. When we think about some of those institutional inequities that have existed. I think that's when we start to realize where some real opportunities lie.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: where each of us could step up.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: So some of them are things like thinking about? What colleges do organizations recruit from?
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Are they always going to the Iv leagues? And you know, if so, are you missing out on great candidates, or even take a step beyond that, requiring a college degree for jobs that may not actually need it. That can be another way, where we see some of that institutional, some of those systems that have been in place that truly do need and minimum looking at and quite honestly, oftentimes dismantling.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: And I think some other things that kind of fall in that category
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: when we think about compensation, the way organizations and the compensation systems have exist, basing somebody's salary on their past salary.
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Janet Stovall: That just keeps the systemic stuff going right?
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Yes, like.
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Janet Stovall: But you can never break. You can't break the pattern.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Yes, you can, and so many organizations do that. But in reality, what I made at my last job has nothing to do with what you expect me to do at this job. So let's just quit asking. Let's let's quit asking and even promotions. How essential is networking in order to get promotions at a particular organization because everybody doesn't have the ability to network in the same way for many different reasons.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: So so I think there's a lot of things that have existed historically, that we can really look at and and kind of think through.
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Janet Stovall: Agreed, agreed.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Me.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: yes, definitely.
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Janet Stovall: Go ahead. I'm sorry I interrupted you again. Go for it.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: No, no, you're good. You're good.
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Janet Stovall: Nope, go ahead!
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Well, I was gonna move us ahead. So if you have anything else, though on this one would would love to hear any last thoughts.
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Janet Stovall: Nope, no last thoughts. Let's go to the next one.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Perfect. So we wanna talk a bit about you know what really gets in the way of allyship
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: and what causes some of these situations. Both those individual and Sis and organizational ones we've talked about
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: so would love to look a bit at our second lesson. Mitigating bias is learning what's real and unlearning. What's rote which I love? Love? Love that that quote in that lesson. So what do you know about bias? How do you use it? What do we know? etc? Janet would love to hear, you know. Kind of that tie, and we think about Juneteenth, and how all of that has impacted some of the biases that exist would love to hear from you.
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Janet Stovall: Well, the thing is is that Juneteenth ended slavery for some, not all, but the racial bias that fueled and perpetuated it. It remains deeply rooted in society. We know it's there. So. But when we think about racism sort of like, we talk about privilege, nobody wants to get called a racist. It's a terrible thing. And we think about racism. But what we that's because we usually envision it, as you know, like conscious
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Janet Stovall: bias, systematic bias, explicit bias. But the reality is that you don't often see that in the workplace, because, as Christie does as Chro, that's an Hr call when that happens, somebody's called an Hr. That's not usually what you see. What you see is more subtle than that. And the 2 kinds that you often see in the workplace are cognitive bias, which is what the Nli. Talks about in our solutions.
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Janet Stovall: and that is nature. I look, I think, of that as nature as in you're born with. This is evolutionary. It's the things that have allowed you to get to this point because it keeps you out of trouble, and you just automatically have some ways to deal with the world. You can make quick decisions with very little information. That's not always bad.
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Janet Stovall: It's not always bad, but it kind of means that you're predisposed
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Janet Stovall: toward certain people sometimes, and certain things for different reasons, and often that is unconscious. You know that that's when we talk about unconscious bias.
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Janet Stovall: Every individual has that. If you have a brain, you have bias. So everybody has that.
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Janet Stovall: But then there's another layer and another type of bias that the technical term is implicit bias. But the way I describe it is implicit. Bias is what happens when you take cognitive bias and drop it into society.
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Janet Stovall: And if you're talking about a society that is
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Janet Stovall: built on systemic inequity, guess what? And so that is, if cognitive bias is nature, this is nurture. If cognitive bias is predisposed toward this is prejudiced against, and if cognitive bias is an unconscious thought.
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Janet Stovall: implicit bias is being seen more and more often as automatic behaviors. So what's unconscious in that is that
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Janet Stovall: you may not be aware
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Janet Stovall: of what is triggering your following reaction, the automatic action. Sometimes you are, because that's why you can't really call it unconscious, because sometimes you're absolutely sure you know why you have this automatic reaction. But you have it, even if you don't sometimes want to have it. And so that's implicit bias. And that's what we see in the workplace. More often the explicit stuff would be easy enough to fix. These 2 are a little bit harder to deal with. You agree, Christy.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: 100 100 and you know this when I hear the word bias again, it it reminds me of the same conversation we just had about the word privilege in that there is so much of a stigma attached to it.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: And and so often people are just rejected. If you say you know, this may be a bit of bias here. People immediately say, Oh, no, not at all. I'm not biased, but we all are.
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Janet Stovall: You are.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: We all are, and we have to acknowledge that, because before, if we don't acknowledge it, then we can't do anything about it.
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Janet Stovall: Exactly.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: And and so often again, people kind of had this this idea that Nope, Nope, it's not me I'm excluded from this.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: But what I always say is, and instead of thinking about biases, right or wrong, I like to think about it as either narrow or wide meaning. Am I using narrow amount of information to make a decision? Or am I using a wide amount of information to make a decision? Because
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: when we use a narrow amount. Oftentimes. That's our bias. We're relying on a past experience or something reminds us of something else. And we aren't actually judging a situation or a person on its own merit.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: And that again can show up as either that that cognitive or that implicit. Sometimes we do it, and and it isn't quite as as unknown as we like to claim that it is. But I think when we start thinking about bias is narrow or wide, the amount of information that we are using to make a decision. Then we can really start acknowledging what's happening. And then we can have some of those meaningful conversations that I think we really need to have
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: in order to start changing some things up. If you will.
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Janet Stovall: Well, Christy, I've heard you say before that when you're dealing with implicit bias or the isms, that one solution is.
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Janet Stovall: always ask yourself why, and I think you and I think that's brilliant, because at the end of the day
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Janet Stovall: it's about questioning everything you believe to be true, and whenever I hear people say they about some group. I will say there is. No, they
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Janet Stovall: there's no that. And and I will often say, Pete, tell people, ask yourself this. If you say all black people, for example, do something. If you truly believe that, ask yourself, do I know anyone
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Janet Stovall: that doesn't, because the minute I know there's 1. Then I know it's it's it's it's bias. And it's prejudice and prejudice is about stereotyping, which is, you know, deciding that a group of people has certain characteristics
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Janet Stovall: based on systemic racism based on your bias. All that gets combined together like I said, bias dropped into society, and
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Janet Stovall: whether you want to be or not. You're shaped by the world you're in. If you watch the media, the media is biased. We know this, we know it. We've seen it. And so if you grow up with that, it doesn't mean that you're a bad person. It doesn't mean your parents are bad people
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Janet Stovall: is systemic.
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Janet Stovall: So if you have bias naturally, and then you put it in a place where you can feed that bias or things that feed
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Janet Stovall: the the they feed the wrong narrative.
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Janet Stovall: You're going to be biased. So the question is, I like Christy. Always ask yourself why I don't care what it is, question everything, and and it's not one just one group that has to do it. Everybody has to do it, and I will tell you it sounds daunting at first, st but after a while you get used to it. It's natural. It becomes automatic
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Janet Stovall: just always. That's why.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Yes, yes, and and start I would to add to that start with the decisions that you make, but also ask why? For larger things for some of those institution wide things. Why are we paying people in this way? Why are we promoting this group? Why are we recruiting from these locations. So again. But start with you, and it's something we all need to do.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: If I have a a gut feeling about something, I ask myself. Why, where is this coming from? What is this based on? Because I know I've been influenced by everything in the media, everything around me, the people that I choose to engage with all of those things. You know, sort of seeking and sinking in. And and I make decisions based on that information that again may or may not be accurate, may or may not be based
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: on data.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: But if, before I move forward with a decision, the last thing I always say is, why do I feel this way? Why do I think this is the right course of action? And if I can't back that up and answer with some data that really supports it. Then that's a pretty good idea that this is probably some bias at play. And I need to really think through and decide. Am I doing this in the best way, and for the best reasons.
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Janet Stovall: And you know 1 point you made that I want to follow up on what came up for me was when you think about it. In general, most of us live very segregated lives.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Yes.
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Janet Stovall: You know, our neighborhoods are generally of a type. Our schools are often based on where we live. So they are of a type. There's majority, I mean, there's some that are very, very diverse, but often
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Janet Stovall: far too many of us. And of course you go to church. If you go to church. Outside of that the workplace is the only place for some people where they're ever going to be around anybody who's different than they are, and if they come in with their biases, that's to be expected and understood. But that is an opportunity to challenge those biases. That's that opportunity to find that one person that isn't like all of them.
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Janet Stovall: all of them, and that. And the minute you see that person you go okay, wait a minute. That probably was a bias and and I know that's not easy. That's not easy to do. It's not easy to even admit that you have bias, but at the end of the day. If we truly want to understand the world, we have to learn what's real like, Chris said. You got to get the data, and we got to unlearn what we believe to be true, because it wasn't question. And that's what this lesson is about.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: I have never thought about what you just said until you just mentioned it. But you are so right. Work is typically the one place where, because we don't have the ability to control, who all is there.
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Janet Stovall: Exactly.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: And in every other area of our life we make choices oftentimes based on what feels most comfortable. And you know we we at Nla, talk a lot about similarity bias, and I will be the 1st to admit it feels comfortable. So our neighborhoods are social activities.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: you know, people have said, and especially you hear it. A lot in the South Sunday mornings is the most segregated hour ever, because our church is still tend to. Everybody in there looks alike, and and that's what we're comfortable with. So when we take all of that where we've been running around in our little comfortable, you know very insular bubbles.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: and then go into a workplace that is very different. That has a very different makeup. There's no wonder why sometimes people have that level of discomfort, why, they can be hesitant to even acknowledge the bias that they that they live with, and why we have to have these very real conversations, to then move past it, or help mitigate against the effects of it. So.
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Janet Stovall: Well, you make a good point, but sometimes you don't even know you have the bias
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Janet Stovall: until something hits that gut like you said, and sometimes, and the thing is, sometimes we have to recognize that that feeling is the right feeling. So if you've had this bias against a group of people, and you have to work with somebody. And suddenly, what you don't want to do is say, well, they're different. No, they're not different. They they're different from what you believe to be true. But that doesn't mean they're necessarily different from the entire group.
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Janet Stovall: And so it is very much that way. I mean, I grew up in a small town in North Carolina, in my high school into public high school, and we were from about 50 50, but I had to get to college to realize that.
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Janet Stovall: Yes, when we were in the band together it was 50 50. I mean, you were all there together. That band had to perform. You did that. At school we went to practice together. We went to class together all those things I got to college and realized I did not socialize with any of the white people that I went to school with. Every day. The people that I traveled all over the country with on buses with the band, the people that I depended on to make sure that we won. I mean, we had a very close and codependent relationship at school, but when I went home
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Janet Stovall: I didn't go to their parties. I didn't go to their neighborhoods, and it took me in college
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Janet Stovall: when I was suddenly living
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Janet Stovall: around people that I that I couldn't get away, get away from, and they couldn't get away from me. I mean, we were in class together. But you're gonna see me in the cafeteria. You're gonna deal with me, and my issues are gonna become your issues. That was the 1st time we really came up against the fact that oh.
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Janet Stovall: I had some beliefs about you that maybe I shouldn't have. And it wasn't easy, you know. You want to hold on to those beliefs. But work now as a grownup, you know, work is where that happens. And so I would encourage everybody you know, to
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Janet Stovall: like, Christy said. When you get that feeling in your gut?
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Janet Stovall: Ask yourself, is this an awareness of the fact that I feel this way? I feel it feels odd because I had a bias, and I was looking through a bias lens. And now removing that there and then you go ask why
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Janet Stovall: that? You ask? Why? At that point?
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Janet Stovall: Yes.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Yes, absolutely. And you know, to do something else that
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: that that Janet mentioned earlier in really paying attention to
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: paying attention to when you have that feeling and being okay with that, you know, kind of initial level of discomfort, because so often we run from that we run from when it doesn't feel comfortable. And we just say, Oh, but this is, you know, this is because of them, and it isn't. It's because of us, because quite often of how we've been socialized and and who we've been around. And one other point that I want to make that are that I want to kind of double down on that, Janet made.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: If and so many of us are quick to say always and never. You know this group always does this, and this group never does that. And people like this always think this way.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: If you can think of that one exception, hold on to that. And, Janet, I don't know if you've ever had this experience. I know I have where people have said directly to me. Oh, I don't mean you.
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Janet Stovall: Yes, you're different.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Yes, yes, you're not like the rest of them, and I say so, and the follow up is always so. If I'm not, do you really think I am that much of a unicorn? Or do you think maybe your definition of this group isn't as accurate as you thought it was.
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Janet Stovall: Exactly.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: So interesting every time you hear that. Oh, no, no, not you. I don't mean.
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Janet Stovall: But I mean.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Talking about your people. I'm talking about the rest of.
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Janet Stovall: And the thing is, that's my point about sometimes, even when it's a good feeling, you need to question it, because, you see somebody and go. Oh, they're different. That's the point at what you question. I mean, because then that and that's a positive thing. And you probably if this happens, you probably think you're giving somebody a compliment, and you are, but you're complimenting them for the wrong reasons. So I'm saying, even when that happens and be open to that.
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Janet Stovall: You know those things that is still bias. It's still bias and still an opportunity to mitigate it.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Absolutely it.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: As Bridget just pointed out in the chat. Positive stereotyping has negative consequences, and it absolutely does.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Just because we automatically assume one group is great at something that does. That still means we're not considering other people for those opportunities. So there's still some negative consequences, maybe not to the person that you've attributed or assigned that positive assumption, but to others. So it's still regardless of it, to have a positive or negative sort of tone to it. It still can be problematic.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: and I love if you didn't see in the chat, Tony just dropped
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: the link to the case for stepping outside your comfort zone, and I think that is such an important sort of thing to think about and to do as frequently as you can.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: It isn't easy, but it is so incredibly necessary.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: and I think you know the folks that it's really necessary for some of those people who still don't believe that they're biased, or they don't care that they are, and maybe starting with stepping outside that comfort zone can be one of the ways, but would love to talk some about. How do we deal with those? How do we deal with the people who are quick to say? You know I'm not biased. It's not me.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: This doesn't affect me at all, or maybe they know it, and they just don't care. And I think that really brings us to our 3rd lesson, where equity isn't fair people. Equity is fair systems.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: And I think that is such an important thing for us to keep in mind. And especially with Juneteenth. It's a reminder that being fair isn't always about treating everybody the same. It's about fixing what's broken, and I have said many times there is nothing more unfair
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: than the equal treatment of unequal people.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: And I'm gonna say that one more time there is nothing more unfair than the equal treatment of unequal people. So just the quick example, many of you may have seen the there's a picture online that goes around where you see 3 people standing trying to see over a fence, and one of them is already tall enough to see over the fence. One of them is, you know, the top of the fence is coming like to the top of their head, and the other one is about
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: 2 feet or so below the fence. Now, if we were to give each of those individuals one box to stand on that would be equal. Everybody got the same thing
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: but the person who's already tall enough to see over the fence didn't need it. And the person who's, you know, really short probably needs 2 boxes. So in our whole thought around, we just need to make systems equal.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: then we're still missing the opportunity to provide for that equity providing for what people actually need. So that's where fair systems really come into play. You know, we can't just magically change history. Unfortunately, I don't think any of us have that magic wand so we can't magically change things that have led to some of the assumptions that we make about others. But we can create some equitable systems
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: that help to even out that playing field. We can give in that scenario the shortest person 2 boxes to stand on so they can see over the fence when that taller person didn't need any, and I think those are the kind of systems we want to talk about. Janet. What are your thoughts? There.
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Janet Stovall: Well, I think this message, this lesson, and this thought is very, very, very important. Now, when it looks like things with, you know the levers going, the needles going backwards, you know I'd I'd welcome everybody to think about it. So when the enslaved in Galveston were freed.
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Janet Stovall: Does anybody think that at that point they're like, Okay, we're free. Now let's go, do we wanna do? No, I mean, they had. They'd been deprived of education. All these kind of things that they did not start at the same spot. Okay, so
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Janet Stovall: that's that's the issue with equity. We don't all start at the same place, and some of us in this country, at least because of systemic racism. There are whole groups of us who started
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Janet Stovall: back in the other way. Some some of us have broken through, you know some of us have done well, some do really really well, but in general there are huge wage gaps. I think I read the other day that for every every black family earns 15 cents
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Janet Stovall: average for every dollar that a white family earns that is not somebody's, you know moral failing. That's a systemic problem. And and and truly.
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Janet Stovall: we need to understand that when we talk, and that means you can't solve it individually, you know, that's not something that individuals, you know, being good actors. And can we all just get along? That doesn't solve it. It's a systemic issue. It's much bigger. And the reason I think it's really interesting now is, if you think about recently I read that there is something going on in the Senate House, whatever. Somebody's put a bill out that they want to take DEI out of the Federal Government.
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Janet Stovall: and that doesn't surprise me. But if you think about what they said, the way they, the way they framed it was. We want to get back to equality and meritocracy and get away from equity.
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Janet Stovall: Believe what they say the 1st time because they said it. I mean because they recognize that equity is the thing that's needed, and equity is the hardest thing to get. You know, equity didn't even come into the DEI phraseology until about the 2,010 s. You know, got really big in 2020, when people saw you know, police inequity
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Janet Stovall: on their screens, but
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Janet Stovall: it used to be just D and I. Diversity and inclusion. And then we started with equity. But equity is the hardest one to achieve. And the reason is this.
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Janet Stovall: in an inequitable world, equity itself is disruption, and we don't like disruption.
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Janet Stovall: And so, if you think about
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Janet Stovall: how it operates in an organization. You know.
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Janet Stovall: it operates on all those 3 levels, too, on the individual level, you wanna individual interpersonal level. You wanna you wanna provide equity when you can. You wanna you wanna be equitable as much as you can be. But I know a lot of people think well, I don't solve systemic problems. I don't hire. I don't fire. I don't do anything. That's that's above my pay grade.
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Janet Stovall: but the but the bottom line is, that's where it has to get done. So is there anything that you could do? And, Christy, I know you talked many times about sort of the systemic inequities and where they live. I mean you. You've done this work before.
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Janet Stovall: is it what you know? I'll I'll think a little bit about what people can do. Have you ever seen where individuals were ever to able to change any of this stuff from a systemic level?
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: I think, where individuals really play a role is starting with the awareness. Starting with the conversations. Starting with the the starting with questioning things so often. We all get very comfortable with. This is how it's always been done. We've always structured compensation in this way. We've always structured our hiring process in this way, and what individuals can do is, you know, it's almost like play dumb just for a moment, and just say, Well, why.
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Janet Stovall: But why?
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: One person questioning something to get a conversation started, because so often that why is rooted in something that is very inequitable? And it takes. So that's the 1st thing I think individuals can do is simply ask the question, lead with curiosity. Don't just accept. This is how it's always been done because maybe it worked
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: 2030, 40 years ago. But there are very few things that haven't evolved since then, except for so many policies, so many things have just we put them on the books and we leave them there, and we keep riding with that. That's the practice that we've adopted.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: So I think that's 1 of the 1st things people can do. Always ask, why lead with that curiosity? And then I think another thing is just acknowledge. When we look around and we will see sometimes I've seen situations where you know the way they responded to this person in this meeting just didn't make sense.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: or the way they're structuring. This policy just doesn't make sense. And when I see those things just taking it upon myself to speak up, having the having the courage, having the desire to be an ally, whatever word you want to use.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: but speaking up and identifying those inequities, because again and you mentioned it. Oftentimes the people who have privilege, people who have the advantage. I saw someone in the chat that you know we often use the words advantage instead of privilege which has the exact same concept. People who have that don't recognize. They have it because that's just their norm.
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Janet Stovall: Right right? And when something.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Is your norm. You don't always see that it. You just assume that exists for everybody. So when we do get to that point of identifying, lean into it, bring it up, talk about it because chances are maybe the person doesn't even recognize. This is problematic. So you know, it's individuals. We can question things. And we can talk about things when we notice it.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: and try and push back on some of those policies and and think creative, get innovative, think of, make suggestions that can potentially change situations, bring other people into your conversations and onto your teams whose perspectives haven't been listened to before. So you know, we all, regardless of our role in organizations.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: we all have the ability to act as a leader in a moment, so regardless of of your title. Take that opportunity to act as the leader, and ask those those very strategic questions that I think we need to lean into a bit.
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Janet Stovall: Absolutely it's about you can influence policy. Even if you can't actually change the system. You never know when the suggestion you make or the question you raise
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Janet Stovall: to set it goes up the ladder, and maybe it changes. And so I definitely agree that that's what that's what we all can do that. And a couple of other things we can do is you can leverage your role. Okay? So maybe you aren't in. Hr, if you are, you know that's kind of a clear way to do it. But suppose you're in marketing, I mean, I came out of the marketing world, and I was always the one who would say, these photos are not inclusive.
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Janet Stovall: You leverage your role wherever you are, you use what you can to find in equity and root it out and push back against it. And and that's good. Because even if you're changing systems, there's some systems, nobody's gonna change. Or there's some systems you don't think about that's gonna come from the ground up. That's gonna come from people doing this work day in and day out and calling out where it exists. So my father used to always have your head on swivel. Always have your head on swivel looking for where the problems are.
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Janet Stovall: The other thing we can do is one thing that we do already is sort of
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Janet Stovall: amplify.
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Janet Stovall: collaborate, get collective strength, you know, we all have these ergs and Brgs within our organizations. That's a real good opportunity for a group of folks to advocate, not only for themselves but for others, because a lot of times people think if you say something individually well, that's just you. But if an entire group of people come and say something, somebody's gotta listen. So it is about saying, you know you say early, like leverage your advantage.
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Janet Stovall: if you are in a if you're in erg, for example, and that's an advantage group leverage it for somebody else.
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Janet Stovall: You're advocating for yourself, advocate for others, too. That's what allyship is like. And collectively, we can all do so much more than we do individually.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Absolutely. There is strength in numbers, and I can think back to when I was in Hr. Leadership roles where you know, just as you said if one person came and complained about something or brought something to my attention, it's real easy sometimes to ignore one person, even if it's a small thing that isn't about equity, you know. One person comes and says the office is too hot. Okay, that's just me. Now, if 20 people come and say it.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: I'm going to listen like, Oh, let me talk to our maintenance. People. Let me figure out what we need to do, and the same thing applies to all of the systems within our organization. So talk to other people when this is a great opportunity to really leverage those groups that already exist, or, more importantly, to leverage those
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: conversations that we are already having, because I think most of us all already talk to colleagues in our workplaces that we know, have some similarities that we know have noticed some, some common things that we've noticed as well. We're having the conversation. This is just about taking the additional step of now bringing it to other people's attention, but doing so as a group, and the upside of that is, when you do it as a group. It takes a little bit of that risk away from you.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: you know. Sometimes there may be hesitancy to raise your hand. You don't want to be the person who says, Well, this isn't fair. This might be a problem, but when you do it as a part of a group, you don't feel like you're standing alone, so it's not as difficult. It's not as scary of a conversation. There, there can be a bit. You feel a bit more safe if you will, and kind of engaging in those conversations. So utilize the groups that are already out there, and existing.
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Janet Stovall: On the Christy. I know you are great and looking in the chat, and we know that I am terrible about looking in the chat. So before we get to the point, we're wrapping up here a little bit. Are there any questions in the chat that you've seen, or any comments that we should address or can address at this point, cause we.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: It, it.
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Janet Stovall: In this conversation.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: It's so funny. As you were saying, that was literally opening the chat and breathing through things. So you are right. That is, that is where I go to see what else is going on. We haven't had any questions yet, but I do encourage people. If you have questions now, it's a great time to throw them in. However, we have had a lot of affirmations and sort of agreeing to a lot of the things we said, and one comment, I'd love to read.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Thank you for affirming the nuance and difference. It also seems to let people feel more comfortable rather than grow through their discomfort to learn and raise their awareness. Thanks again.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: And I think that phrase of growing through our discomfort. I love that Donna thank you for phrasing it that way, because ultimately, that's what we all need to do. They're gun, you know, of this conversation, thinking about equity thinking about bias thinking about, you know, kind of raising your hand when we notice things
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: can feel very uncomfortable, but it is an opportunity for us to grow through that
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: and that, I think, is what you know. Ideally, I would love to say we are each charged to do. And when we all focus on that, that's when we can see some of these systemic problems. That's when we can start acknowledging these systemic racism that's affecting so many things. So that's when we then have that bigger opportunity to change it.
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Janet Stovall: Because you think about it.
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Janet Stovall: The only way you know that something is wrong
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Janet Stovall: is if it hurts.
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Janet Stovall: it's discomfort. When you get sick there's discomfort. So you know, you need to go fix it. And we live in a world and a society where there are a lot of things that are just gonna make you uncomfortable and but that is how we change it. That's how you know that it's a problem. So I love that, too, grow through your discomfort, I mean, cause if you, if you go through that, if you go through the discomfort you will grow as a result of having done it so. I love that that term, too. I'm using that.
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Janet Stovall: Thanks, Natalie.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Me, too. Yes, yes, so am I. I'm gonna use it because it is so important, so important. And let's see, we do have a question, what have you all seen to be the most effective accountability practices to ensure the execution of new behaviors and systems? And what change management practices have you seen is most effective.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Melissa? That's a really big question that could probably take us through a whole nother. A a whole nother session. But and, Tony, if you have the ability, I'm gonna put you on the spot here. We've just put out some pieces on accountability. So and Janet, I know you have some thoughts on kind of that intersection of accountability. And, Dei, if I remember correctly, I think you just publish something, or maybe you're in process of putting something together for that any thoughts on on that.
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Janet Stovall: Yeah, there's 1 in the works. For that. I absolutely, you know, think that accountability is really the lack of it.
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Janet Stovall: I think, is one of the biggest hindrances to diversity, equity, inclusion, getting into organizations. Because if you don't have to do it, why would you? And not just accountability, but
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Janet Stovall: getting some sort of a I won't say reward, but not just accountability, but incentive cause. There's 2 ways to get people to do. Stuff right, carrot stick and carrot is much better. But the way we think about it in a lie, the way you do that in a way that is less confrontational is, you make
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Janet Stovall: diversity, equity, inclusion, part of the business plan. You put it into the business, because at the end of the day
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Janet Stovall: you can't change people's minds. You can't change their beliefs, but you can change their behavior. Because as an organization, you can decide, this is what we stand for. This is who we are. This is what inclusion looks like here, and then be as concrete about it as possible, because if it's concrete, if it's objective, then you can go back fail. You can re-engineer the systems. You need to support it. But at the end of the day it takes accountability.
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Janet Stovall: You know. You you want people to do things for the right thing for the right reason. But that assumes that everybody thinks it's the right reason. And that's why we talk about systems. Because if you really want
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Janet Stovall: to infuse an organization and make it a place where people feel included, and there's an inclusive society in that organization.
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Janet Stovall: it has to be part of the systems, because it can't depend
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Janet Stovall: on the person who cares being in that seat. It can't depend on one person. It can't depend on one team. It cannot depend on people as individuals. You have to bake it in, and accountability is the way you bake it in. Make people accountable for something, and if you want to make them accountable something, make them accountable for the business, and make sure that whatever they're accountable for for the business. There's diversity tied to it, and then you know what they'll be accountable for diversity, too.
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Janet Stovall: but just giving people stray targets without any accountability, and not any really good reason for it. You know, we wanna increase the number of black people in senior leadership by 30%. But you don't know why you haven't accepted. Why, that's a good thing.
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Janet Stovall: You haven't got any accountability to do it.
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Janet Stovall: It's not that you don't want to, but you're going to do things you're accountable for at the end of the day we do what we're accountable for. And so accountability is huge. And in the DEI space it is about not just leaders need to be accountable.
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Janet Stovall: but it needs to filter down because we talked about that collective strength when everybody
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Janet Stovall: is engaged and being accountable for diversity, equity, and inclusion. That's how it happens. And the one thing that everybody in that organization is there to do is to make that business work right, so tie it together, and you get the collective strength.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Absolutely. You know, I've often said.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: if you ask somebody whose job is it to be fiscally responsible in an organization, they're gonna say, everybody. Even you, don't have to be a member of the finance department or accounting team or anything like that. Everyone understands it is their job to make decisions that are fiscally responsible.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: But if you were to ask, whose job is it to prioritize Dei, they're gonna say, Oh, our diversity department or our Hr department, and we need to take that same approach. We need to have it so ingrained into the culture of the company that everyone acknowledges. This is my responsibility. We are all doing this together. And that's when we can see and really have that impact. Someone asked a question about collaborating and
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: with ergs. And that's 1 of the ways we can do that when we hold everyone account accountable. When we say to everyone, this is all of our responsibility. It really starts to to make it a part of who you are as an organization. And I think that's, you know, one of the goals we have to have.
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Janet Stovall: And accountability is key, because a lot of times we say that, and we don't tell people how they can do it. You should all be accountable for this, but I don't give you any way to do it. Which is why I like, said I've come to the conclusion over the years. That that is why you tie it to business outcomes, because that's always going to be there. That's always going to be there. And at the end of the day in the workplace.
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Janet Stovall: Diversity is valued because of what it contributes to the business, you know. If you ask organizations, they'll say, Well, we want to have we? You know, we want diversity because of innovation.
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Janet Stovall: Okay, how are you going to leverage it? If it's not embedded in the organization? Some will say, we just want an inclusive culture. Okay? But even when you have an inclusive culture, why do you have it? Because you want to be able to better work together. You want to be better able to deliver on something. I mean.
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Janet Stovall: I I do think there are a lot of organizations where you have leaders. Who want to create sort of a certain environment. But at the end of the day.
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Janet Stovall: especially if it's a you know. I only say nonprofits, because nonprofits have. They have a mission, too. It's a slightly different mission. But they, too, have a mission. And whatever it is, you want an inclusive culture, not just because it's a good thing to have, but because it helps you achieve whatever your vision is. And if you tie diversity, equity, inclusion to that, and just don't leave it out in the air. It gets done.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Absolutely well. We have gone through a lot and really linked that really link Juneteenth to these critical leadership lessons. So just to kind of recap our takeaways when we think about what it means to be an ally, it's speaking up for others, not just about them, so speak up for them, not just about them. And what do we know about bias? We need to challenge our own perspectives.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: And when we think about how to address inequity
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: advocate for fair systems, not just fair treatment, and I will say not just equal treatment.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: So, Janet, any closing thoughts.
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Janet Stovall: Only one if you are interested in keeping up with what
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Janet Stovall: the Dei center of practice is, do center of excellence. Analyze doing. Christy and I write all the time. If you will put practice update in the chat, you'll get an email if you want to get an email that will have a list of latest dei publications, podcasts, papers, anything to keep you up to date. So just put practice. Update in the chat and we'll take care of it, and now I'll hand it back to Shelby. Thank you, Christy.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Yes, thank you.
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Shelby Wilburn: Amazing. Thank you, ladies, so much. That was such a powerful conversation. Now, a few more closing announcements. So we have our poll. Let us know how analyt can help you and how you may want to work with us.
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Shelby Wilburn: Summit 2024 is underway this year. We're going fully virtual, and it will take place on October 29th and 30.th We have our official event website, live now with tickets, information on topics and speakers, and more so visit summit dot nour leadership.com for all your needs. We also have an early bird special. So you make sure that you wanna hop on that. And if you're listening to the podcast you can use the discount code, your brain at work 24
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Shelby Wilburn: and get 10% off
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Shelby Wilburn: also hosting events with us. We really wanna expand and partner with our community. So if you're interested in your organization hosting an event with us, check out that link as well to learn more information, and our podcast your brain at work. Wherever you listen to your podcast this episode and many other great ones are on there. So make sure that you check it out, and this is where we say farewell. So on behalf of our team behind the scenes.
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Shelby Wilburn: Thank you so much for being here each week we appreciate you, and we'll see you again next Friday. Have a wonderful day.