Organizations are facing a complex landscape of challenges and potential crises, driven by rapid technological advancements, shifting economic conditions, and evolving global events. Frameworks such as VUCA (volatility, uncertainty, complexity, and ambiguity) and the more recent BANI (brittle, anxious, nonlinear, and incomprehensible) are used to understand the challenges of navigating complex and unpredictable environments. Organizational leaders face the outsized responsibility of helping their teams prepare for and approach these challenges while maintaining high performance. As we consider the role leaders play in the success of their teams and organizations, what skills can help them drive performance and inspire great work amid challenges? Join Drs. David Rock and Emma Sarro as they discuss the right mindset to lead in a crisis and the necessary skills all leaders need to maintain productivity and efficiency, reduce uncertainty, and increase relatedness.
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Emma Sarro: Hello! Welcome!
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Emma Sarro: Welcome to your brain at work! See everyone logging in.
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Emma Sarro: It's good to see you again for another Friday.
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Emma Sarro: We were off last week, so I hope you all enjoyed your your maybe long weekend if you had it.
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Emma Sarro: Alright, as everyone is joining you know the deal. Please drop in the chat where you're coming in from today. Find the chat button, make it, cook it to everyone so we can all see your your comments, and where you're coming in from
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Emma Sarro: awesome nice.
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Emma Sarro: I am just outside of New York City, and it's kind of sunny today. So we're getting there
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Emma Sarro: very nice, all right, so we're happy to have you back for all of our regulars. Welcome to anyone who's here for the 1st time. We're excited to have you with us again. Just keep dropping in the chat where you're coming in from today. We'd love to see where everyone is worldwide.
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Emma Sarro: So today is one of our leadership. Now series, we use one of these or put together one of these at least once a month, and we dive into the complexities of leadership today. So today, you know, we're talking about different skills that are critical while they may look different. There are some new ones, and others are harder than ever, as I'm sure many of you know.
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Emma Sarro: But within all of that there is a common foundation that we've realized in our research, and we'll be talking about that foundation today, especially as we really start to develop our skills around AI and as leaders developing our AI team as well.
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Emma Sarro: So as usual, we suggest to take all of those distractions and push them away. Do yourself a favor and focus on this. Maybe take a walk and listen while you're doing this as well, and we love interaction. So please continue to drop questions and comments in the chat.
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Emma Sarro: So you know me. I am the head of research here. I'm just outside of New York City. I received my Phd. From Nyu many years ago, and my guest today. You know him very well coined the term neural leadership when he co-founded Nli about over 25 years ago, I think, at this point, with a professional doctorate and 4 successful books under his name, and many bylines ranging from the Harvard Business Review to the New York Times, and many more welcome. Dr. David Rock, our co-founder, and CEO.
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David Rock: Thanks very much, Emma. Good to be back happy. Friday.
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Emma Sarro: Happy Friday. So, if you can believe it, we are about half a year in already, about 6 months, in which is wild, because I feel like it was just yesterday that we were kind of kicking off the year. You had a set of predictions for this year, and you started off with a big
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Emma Sarro: data set around the number of leaders or Ceos at this point that reported they just felt they had this sense of imposter syndrome. They just didn't, you know, testing or questioning their efficacy, their ability to lead. And these kinds of data is still coming out. I think leaders are now many leaders are reporting imposter syndrome as well, and I think many of this much of this might have to do with just their
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Emma Sarro: their need to incorporate AI and and work with AI more in addition to leading teams. So are you leading a team of AI and as well as a team of people. And how do we do that?
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Emma Sarro: But yeah, and and actually, at the same time, along with this is our, is our discussion around the stuff of thought which really dives into, how do we work with AI? And like, how do we build those skills around it? So if anyone missed it last week or 2 weeks ago we had a podcast on the stuff of thought, we called it, and we talked about that which was a great great conversation. If you missed it.
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David Rock: I think it was such an interesting thing to just kind of see that to leverage AI, you actually need to understand humans much better and human thinking, and and have really good distinctions in the difference between okay, good and great thinking itself right? Because you're becoming someone who's kind of a merchant of thinking in a way you're like.
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David Rock: you've got to be able to evaluate your own thinking and AI's thinking and other people using AI's thinking. And all this stuff. So it's really interesting. The more we dig into AI, the more we need to understand the brain and thinking and quality of thought, it was such an interesting session to kind of dig into the stuff of thought
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David Rock: last time. If you haven't downloaded it listened to it. So I think it's a really fascinating one kind of laying out where this is all going. And a really interesting time, too, at the moment, I think, where we're on the cusp of kind of AI making a leap from kind of a thinking tool to an actioning tool.
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David Rock: and the implications of that might be really, really big
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David Rock: as we we go from sort of, you know, began to answer questions to being able to have.
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David Rock: You know AI do a lot of thinking for us in a way, and that was kind of a part of what we're talking about on the stuff of thought that that kind of last century was labor saving devices, this century. It's it's mental labor saving devices. And we've had these interface breakthroughs that have accelerated technology.
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David Rock: This this breakthrough is actually something saving you, having to think about a lot of everyday tasks and be really interesting to see what that does and how that frees people up. I'm definitely seeing a lot of friends like suddenly starting businesses because they don't need to hire a graphic designer or a filmmaker or a web designer, or like they've got an idea. They can just like really quickly pull stuff together and launch things. I think we're going to see a proliferation of
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David Rock: small businesses, of products of new ideas and a really really interesting time. I think the innovation in the world will accelerate. But we'll also get a dearth of poor quality, content and other stuff. I think we'll get a little bit of both as we go forward.
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Emma Sarro: Oh, yeah, that's exactly what was coming up for me, too. I mean, I think we kind of presented this last time is that you can go in one direction and just offload everything onto AI, and that's really the wrong direction. Right? Because we, you know, evolutionarily, we want to default all of our, you know, hard stuff onto something else. So if given the opportunity, we will. But there's all this research showing that if we, if we rely on it.
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Emma Sarro: Then we lose our ability to do the human stuff like critical thinking being super creative. So AI can help us have a bunch of creative ideas. But we shouldn't let it do the creative thinking right.
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David Rock: Can't let it do the work for us. Yeah, absolutely. Speaking of creative ideas, you might notice, if you're a regular watcher or listener, maybe watcher, more relevant that we've got a new background today. This is actually our summit theme. So we're officially launching the summit website in the next week or so you'll see the programs definitely some, some big AI focused topics. But a lot more than just that. There's a lot of really fun stuff. But thrive through complexity is the theme.
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David Rock: And I think we just started emailing folks. The date. What's the date? Again? It's November 12, th 13.th
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Emma Sarro: 13, th yeah.
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David Rock: November 12th and 13.th Folks can already sign up. So we're excited to kick that off.
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David Rock: And I've got some really interesting interesting topics. You'll see on the website kind of all the different topics coming up. So yeah, anyway, I guess back to leadership. Now.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, leadership. Now. So we talked about this, you know, I think, actually, at our last summit, we kind of rolled out this 50 50 idea, and then the really the foundation for what helps us learn all of the things that we need to learn and be good at all the things we need to be good at. So can you walk people through that 50? 50 idea
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Emma Sarro: applies today.
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David Rock: I think it's getting. I think it's probably even worse, maybe now. So the 50 50 insight came from about a year of asking this question of leaders, which was the question was, how much of your time as a leader this is, you know, sort of all levels of leader. How much of your time as a leader is spent on
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David Rock: new things, and we define you as like, you know things you weren't doing 5 years ago, and how much of your time is spent on things that you know you've always been doing as a leader. And when we looked at that, what we saw was about 50% of people's time. So their time, their focus was going on to
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David Rock: things like dealing with the hybrid workplace, which is obviously new, dealing with a massively overwhelmed workforce which was was new dealing with a, you know, significantly more divided workforce, which was obviously new, dealing with AI, which is new dealing with, you know, different. This was, this is before the
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David Rock: you know, in the North America the whole issue with
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David Rock: you know, tariffs and the political situation. This is before that, and what we saw is about half the things that people that leaders spend their time on
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David Rock: are new, and about the other half are
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David Rock: are not new, but they're actually different.
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David Rock: So they're not new, and we sort of define them broadly in 3 categories, as like understanding people, motivating them and developing them right? So sort of broadly. The stuff that hasn't changed is understanding, motivating and developing right. And what we saw is that those 3 things
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David Rock: are
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David Rock: harder to do when you've got, you know, people overwhelmed and hybrid, and all this stuff. So understanding people is harder to do if you're not seeing them, and they're really stressed out and motivating them is harder. Developing them is harder. But interestingly, they're not just harder. They're actually more important to do
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David Rock: so. It's this sort of really interesting conundrum of even the new things are harder and more important.
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David Rock: So it's a it's a 50 50 conundrum. And you know, the 50% of not new things are still like even more challenging than they used to be. So that's that's kind of the frame. And you know, in that environment we're like, all right. Well, if you're going to just focus on 3 overall kind of sets of habits.
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David Rock: How would you, how would you approach that? And we have a we have a partner who just started working with us. And and I think that they really got this memo really clearly that you can change a whole organization at once. But you have to do it in a block, right? And so we're working with them where, you know 6 months the whole organization is going to learn. This one set of habits really embed them the next 6 months another set of habits.
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David Rock: And then the next 6 months. So so basically, we're looking at 3 sets of habits that get embedded across thousands and thousands of people all at the same time, but over a period of time. And that's really the clever way to do it. And when we look at sort of what's happening with the AI world. And with the 50 50 problem we're like
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David Rock: growth. Mindset is just more and more and more and more important. Right? When you start adding to this, like, you know, understanding agents, managing agents dealing with agents dealing with people and managing people who manage agents like it's like, Okay, we need even more of a growth mindset, because it's, you know, it's basically learning a lot.
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David Rock: It's learning. It's growth minds is basically how fast you learn and how much value you put on learning and and the importance of it. So so we're just seeing that, as just, you know, becoming even more relevant as kind of a starting point. What's your perspective on that.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, yeah. Growth mindset, I think it's 1 of those things that, even if you, you know, might have embraced it years ago. And you learned all of these new skills, and you were receptive to feedback and willing to change. It's a continuous need to kind of embrace, because as the environment changes. You need to constantly be willing to, you know. Change your skill set, learn new habits. This is new. I need to get feedback on this.
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Emma Sarro: I was really great at doing this before, but now I need to receive feedback and improve on it. So it's 1 of those skill sets and mindsets that really should never.
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Emma Sarro: should never go away like you're never there yet you always have to keep improving, and I think what AI has taught us is that no matter how long you've been in these positions, you do need to be willing to, you know, embrace something new because this train is going, and we all need to use this, no matter what.
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David Rock: Yeah, yeah, I think you know, I was reflecting on this. I was writing a bit of a chapter recently about growth mindset. And I realized. One of the things that I do is every couple of years. Once I sort of master a skill, I'll do something new that's really difficult. And I've been learning all sorts of things in the last decade. But
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David Rock: you know but things that really stretch myself that I even I think I can't do like they're going to be really hard and
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David Rock: it's it's so fascinating. I recently got back into tennis after 40 years of not playing like I played till I was like 17 or something, and I got, you know, got back in, and you just watch like all the fears coming up, although, like oh, I can't do this, or I wish I'd played more, you know.
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David Rock: And instead, just coming back to like all right experiment, you know. Try things, see what works. Build the muscles right. Get the feedback, you know, and it took me like a month, and you know now I can play a game again. But I just it's so interesting watching. You know your brain as you learn something new and seeing you know what your brain does. But you've just.
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David Rock: you know, even knowing all this stuff, I've got to keep bringing myself back to you know, just just experiment. Just work on progress. Just do one thing, you know. Just keep that growth mindset really there. So I think in this time it's it's not going away. And we have a lot of organizations, you know, just doing big growth mindset initiatives now, which makes sense. But I think it's a really nice 1st piece of the puzzle. To kind of lay the foundation for everyone to learn more.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, I mean, it definitely sets the foundation to being agile, right? And this is something, you know, even in our in our summit theme. We're, you know, recognizing the fact that there's complexity in the world so kind of like.
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Emma Sarro: it's like an amped up version of change like it's complex. The problems are more complex, it's more difficult. We do need to broaden our mindset for growth. And actually, one question for you, coming up as you've tried to engage in new things and learning new things over time. Does it help you to learn some things in a different context, to bring it to work and be open to learn others.
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David Rock: Oh, I mean, I definitely find, as I'm going through that, especially that early learning cycle. And I start making progress and learning. I definitely find it like kind of opens my brain up somehow. It must be the dopamine. But I find myself having lots of insights about work, lots of insights about other things. It's very energizing to actually be learning to be in the flow of learning new things and making progress. It it definitely allows me to have a feeling of being able to make progress in all sorts of areas. I can. I can definitely sense that.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, you know, it's interesting. And for anyone who follows us, we have a Gpa survey. And you know, this is something we're talking about today is, you know, what is your leadership? Gpa, and we've been collecting data. We have, you know, a couple 100 people that have responded. And you know they've attended these. We have these webinars each week that go and dive into each one. But what's been so interesting for us because we've been talking about growth mindset for years, probably the longest as opposed.
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David Rock: Oh yes!
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Emma Sarro: It's like, yeah, for years, and that is the one pillar that people have the most difficulty with. It seems they score their leaders score the the worst, not poor, but they score the worst in growth, mindset.
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David Rock: Let's just explain the other 2. So people don't have to keep wondering growth, mindset psychological safety accountability. Right? Gpa, I think you just put the link to the survey wants to take that. So what we're saying is, people find growth mindset harder than psychological safety and accountability.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, it seems like it. And when we kind of pull apart, what part of growth mindset is the hardest, it's sharing mistakes. That's a part of growth mindset is being aware of and being able to kind of talk about, recognize that you make a mistake. That's hard, and that's the hardest part for leaders to do, and I would love to know if people in the group feel the same way.
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David Rock: Yeah, maybe it's a question for the group. Why do you think growth mindset would show up as the hardest? I would have thought, like accountability or safety and growth mindset such a popular solution. And I know we get huge success with embedding the habits. Even 6 months later, like only a few percent drop in the habits. But so intuitively I wouldn't have thought, why do folks think growth mindset would be the harder habit? Let's get some comments in the chat out of the other 2, because it feels personal. Thanks. Laurie. Yeah, yeah, I guess it's like.
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Emma Sarro: Point.
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David Rock: Attacking us. Attacking your status, you know, makes you feel vulnerable. Few people using the word vulnerability. Yeah, you've got a we. We've been doing something for years. We call it mistake of the month where we compete at Nli at one of our all hands meetings, for who did the dumbest thing this month. Actually haven't done it for a couple of months. We have to get back to it. But it's it's interesting. It's very, very vulnerable to share your mistakes with people with, you know, with peers, and we want to look perfect. Right?
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David Rock: So yeah, some good, some good comments there. I think the winner last year was someone who was on a call with their pajamas on the bottom, and they didn't know they had a mirror behind there.
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Emma Sarro: Oh, my God!
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David Rock: Behind the camera. No, no zoom background. It's a shout out for zoom backgrounds right there.
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David Rock: Anyway. So so interesting. So it's the hardest one, and probably vulnerability.
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Emma Sarro: And yeah. Some interesting comments from folks, you know, were rewarded for success.
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David Rock: A lot about perfection and vulnerability. And I think it's also just a status attack, and we protect our status so unconsciously and so intensely. You know, we just don't want to look bad to ourselves as well as to others. Right in the in the brain. Feeling worse than other people is the same as feeling worse than we thought we were, and both of them create a really strong threat response. You know a threat to our status. So I think it's I think that's a piece of it. Interesting.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, it is really interesting. And I guess with the increasing pressures and challenging work environments, status becomes even more and more important.
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David Rock: Yeah, yeah, interesting.
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David Rock: The I think we are going to get to a point, I think, in the workplace where companies are going to be saying, well, you know, we need.
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David Rock: we only need, you know, 70% of the people we have, because everyone's so much more productive. How do we keep the really really smart people who don't make any mistakes. And you know all this. So it's going to be some interesting pressure to sort of show up, you know, I think in companies that's going to come up. But I think you know, growth mindset is its own reward, as I was sharing when you start learning more things and you start adapting, evolving, you do get this positive energy from it, and it helps you in all sorts of ways to perform better.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, when we think about Gpa, there is a specific order. We talked about growth. Mindset really is a is a stepping stone for the next pillar, which is psychological safety and psychological safety. It's been definitely increasing in popularity. People have talked about it more and more in the last few years. But as we'll talk about, there's definitely some misconceptions.
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Emma Sarro: What? Exactly it is. So can you explain psychological safety.
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David Rock: Yeah, I mean, it's this wonderful and terrible label. It's wonderful because it sort of it's like it's like the way they explained aliens is like jaws in space, right? Aliens with jaws in space. They're able to sell it. It's a mythical story about the producers who sold it really easily by just
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David Rock: linking to an existing idea and shifting it a bit right? And you know, in some ways it's like you take safety, which everyone understands is really really important. And you just say, well, psychological safety, right? And so from. So you've got the jaws in space effect of sort of understanding something. But unfortunately, you've got this, this unintended consequence of that which is that it feels like the absence of any danger whatsoever.
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David Rock: right, and because safety means like no danger right? Like no one gets hurt, whereas with psychological safety, the goal isn't actually everyone feeling absolutely okay, a better like definition of
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David Rock: like a psychologically safe climate would actually be healthy debate happening at exactly the right level, right? And so that doesn't mean people feel safe all the time at all. It means they're actually arguing. And you know, in parallel with the piece we wrote in Hbr a few years, like people actually need to feel a little bit uncomfortable
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David Rock: in in a team of different people to get the benefits of that diversity like
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David Rock: we wrote a piece called Diverse Teams feel less comfortable. That's why they perform better. Right? So so you actually need a little bit of discomfort, a little bit of that positive friction. Steve Jobs talked about that from Apple. But like you need a little bit of positive friction. There's a wonderful scene in Bohemian rhapsody. We're really going wild here today. But do you remember, Bohemian rhapsody. The Queen stories, a wonderful scene in the movie where
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David Rock: that everyone hated Freddie. The band hated Freddie Mercury. They loved him, but hated him because he was just. He had some quirks and some challenges, and basically booted him out for a period of time. And then they tried to make music without him. He was incredibly annoying. He, you know, he had some really difficult habits, but they just couldn't make a good song without him right? And they sort of tried to call him back, they said, You know, I'm paraphrasing. But you know we we
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David Rock: it's really hard working with you, but we just get nowhere without you. We we need the. We don't have the friction. We don't have the challenges. So so I think
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David Rock: psychological safety is actually about
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David Rock: healthy debate happened at exactly the right level, and I think that's you know, one of the
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David Rock: misunderstandings people have about it. So it's sort of mislabeled in a way.
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David Rock: So it's got a it's got an upside of the labeling, but it's got a downside of the labeling.
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David Rock: and it's hard to do just like people protect their status around growth. Mindset. People have a big status reaction to
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David Rock: to you know, being debated with and to, you know, people calling you out, and all this stuff. So it's tricky. What are some of the other sort of myths that you found? I know that Amy Edmondson, who we partnered with. Wrote a nice piece recently on the myths, and we were looking at that and nodding our heads vigorously. What are some of the myths that she was talking about recently.
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Emma Sarro: Well, the 1st I mean, this has come up so many times when we've talked to clients, too. I mean, we talk about psychological safety, and they say, Well, I don't know. It doesn't seem like it'll be like it'll catch on. And we really want performance. And we really want to drive our teams to innovate and perform. And we're like, no, this is exactly what you need. This is what drives performance and and so yeah, it gets kind of a bad rap, but it's 1 of the other misconceptions that
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Emma Sarro: that happens is, it's just it's soft, and it's easy. And that's the wrong one. It's actually, incredibly difficult to build an environment where people feel socially safe. They feel they're not risking their status, their relatedness when they're, you know, disagreeing with their leader, which is such a difficult thing to do. But that's what needs to happen. You need to be able to share when you made a mistake when you disagree when somebody's going
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Emma Sarro: down the wrong track. And we need to have this debate in order to innovate. So it's like being able to take that social risk and know that you're safe on your team. But in the face of work risks. So it's a difficult and a constant process, I think, for teams to create that. So it's the opposite of easy. It's a very difficult
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Emma Sarro: right? That's right.
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David Rock: What? What did we find
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David Rock: in the? In the survey? In the Gpa survey? Which element do people find hardest? What, what insights came out of the survey. So far.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah. So 2 pieces like safety were very difficult for leaders to do. One of them was just making it clear to the team that robust debate is is a necessary part of our behaviors, the social norms of our team just making that clear, and also being able to challenge others which makes so much sense. It's difficult to challenge. And it's difficult for leaders, I think, to emphasize that we are going to have to have debate if we're going to be a great team together.
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David Rock: Yeah, yeah, I think we call it challenge kindly, is the specific habit, right? How do you challenge kindly? Which is like, you know, the least possible bias with the least possible threat.
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David Rock: And it's an interesting. You can sort of imagine a 2 by 2 of scarf and seeds like scarf being threat responses and seeds, the biased responses. So you want the least. You know scarf threats and the least the fewest seeds biases in that way. But it's tricky.
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David Rock: We, you know, we've taught our AI how to think like that. So we've taught Niles our AI how to like how to coach you to to improve psychological safety. So Niles Niles has growth, mindset, psych safety, and accountability woven into his his thinking.
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David Rock: And so it's interesting. You could use it to practice like different. You could use and also practice like different ways. You might interact to, to challenge kindly and and how you can do that in a way that really minimizes the threat, but also minimizes the biases.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, right? I mean, right? So it's it's not easy. And I think it takes work. And you can also see differences on different teams. So some teams have in some meetings you feel incredibly, psychologically safe and others not so it differs even across an organization. So leaders, I think, have to continually work on that, especially when they're when they're tired they're overwhelmed. They're under pressure. They need to be able to have disagreements.
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David Rock: Yeah, it's a few simple habits that you can put in place that help. And I know we teach these in the in the team solution that we have.
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David Rock: But there's a few simple habits, you know. One of them is just like regularly asking for a comment from everyone in the chat like everyone who's there. Like, if you're here, your opinion matters. So I want everyone to put a comment in the chat. This gets everyone kind of speaking up, contributing in different ways
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David Rock: and dig in. Oh, by the way, we should have done this earlier. But if anyone's interested in the in the growth mindset solution, and just kind of wants to dig into that and understand it more. Just put the word grow in the chat with your company name, so grow in your company name, and someone will reach out to you and share. You know you can watch some of the videos. You can see the content. You can see the data we have on it. We'll give you a good run through the solution.
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David Rock: So just put the word grow. And for psychological safety. We have the solution called team. So again, if you're interested in understanding our psych safety approach and the 3 habits just put
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David Rock: the word team and your company name or organization name, and someone will follow up with you. So grow or team. Thanks.
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David Rock: So, yeah. So it's like safety. Interesting. It's it's it's a much more intentional thing than just kind of being nice to people.
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David Rock: right? It's it's a very, very intentional thing. And generally there's a really, really big gap between how much feedback leaders think they give and how much they actually give, and an even bigger gap between how psychologically safe leaders feel their team is versus how it is. There's a really really big gap in in those in that. And I think it's partially because people don't speak up about not speaking up right?
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David Rock: It's like, yeah, yeah, I have a scientist friend. I've been sort of following around a bit and getting to see his works, fascinating individual, and he'll give a talk. He's a genius, he's absolute genius. He'll give a talk, and it'll be way above the heads of everyone, and I've watched him give several talks, and he always checks in. Is everyone following me, and everyone just nods.
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David Rock: No.
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David Rock: no one ever speaks up. No one ever says, like, I'm not following you because it's too scary, right? And so leaders aren't getting accurate feedback about the level of psychological safety in the team, which is interesting.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, yeah, Laurie, Laurie dropped in the chat. No one gets fired for being silent. And that's it's true. It's scary. I mean, you really need as leaders need to be okay and and rewarding that feedback. Right? How do you kind of reinforce when individuals challenge hard for leaders to do.
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David Rock: Yeah, one of the best habits is actually asking for feedback as a leader. And really it creates psych safety. It also creates a growth. Mindset also creates a bit of accountability, but it's such a fantastic habit for psych safety. So you got to ask, well, so asking, you know, what am I doing? Well? I should keep doing? What can I do differently in the future? And
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David Rock: really, you know, really listening and letting people know you're asking lots of people. So you want their honest opinion, all this stuff. So it's a really helpful skill for building psych safety. And I think you get a lot more information out of people than they'll ever give you if you ask for feedback. Well, and you know every few months for each person.
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David Rock: you'll get that if you want a terrifyingly hard practice ground to that, everything else will be easier after this. Try this on your teenage kids, and everything will be easier. It'll be like Philip Petit going 10,000 feet above the twin towers to practice feeling, you know, high up. You'll do something really hard, and then you come back it'll be really easy at work. So asking for feedback, really great Psyche tool.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah. Yeah. And the other piece of this is that it doesn't even have to be an experience that you have yourself watching kind of observing others go through this. This is where, how these things kind of snowball throughout an organization, if you see others, you know, being able to speak up and share, and not being reprimanded, or, you know, ignored, then you'll be more likely to do it. So it's you know, these kind of observations like the way it is around here. That kind
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Emma Sarro: thing passes through an organization. So it doesn't even have to be between you and someone else. You can just observe it in others, and it's it is like, becomes commonplace. Yeah.
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David Rock: Yeah, it's 1 of the habits you've got. Challenge kindly, but you got affirm warmly as well. So affirming warmly. So you're trying to affirm. You know, that it's safe to speak up. You're affirming people for taking the risk, you know. That's another kind of piece, affirm warmly. Challenge kindly, are a couple of the couple of the insights.
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David Rock: So yeah, interesting. So psych safety, I guess. Yeah, let's shift to accountability. And it's such an interesting one when you sort of. I think that I think Amy wrote about this, that when people sort of think about accountability and psych safety, they see them as diametrically opposed. They're actually, really, really important things together. Can you? Can you speak to that?
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, she actually tested this in working teams, and she measured how much accountability is on this team, how much psychological safety and and like, what is their performance over time? And what she found is that because I think she was addressing the uncertainty that if we try to have psychological safety. We can't hold people accountable and vice versa. You know, we want accountability while psych safety is out the window. But actually that those 2 things were necessarily
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Emma Sarro: better for each other that teams just performed better when they had high levels of psychological safety. But they held each other accountable, and they held themselves accountable, and you can have that. If you have psychological safety, then people will be willing to take responsibility for things. Yeah.
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David Rock: Right, because accountability can come in 2 forms right? There's punitive accountability. And then there's what we call proactive accountability, right? And certainly like punitive accountability doesn't go well with with psych safety, right? So focusing on like catching people doing things wrong.
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David Rock: Right. And, as as you know, Ken Blanchard said, with the 1 min manager, accountability can't be like catching people really quickly every time they're doing something wrong and telling them right. That's not not a great version of accountability, but that's how a lot of people see it. Or you know, firing people faster. Or and you know there's an element of companies, many, many companies not dealing with poor performance quickly enough.
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David Rock: and I think that's going to show up in this AI era more. But it's but that's not the kind of accountability we're talking about. The kind of accountability that's really helpful is what we call proactive accountability, where there's a huge emphasis on clear expectations, and really like ensuring that both sides understand those expectations. You imagine how helpful that is for psych safety. Right?
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David Rock: If you don't have clear expectations and high standards as well. Right, if you don't have clear expectations, high standards, how do people feel psychologically safe. What do they have to debate about? It's just all ambiguous, right? So you want those clear expectations, those high standards you want.
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David Rock: You want to be also activating the second habit we found of accountability, which is around driving with purpose. So lifting people up to why they're doing things which makes them more motivated and more and more flexible right? Both
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David Rock: so so, and then owning the impact, which is the 3rd habit. So we published, we've published 2 papers on accountability. In the last year we've been very busy on accountability, and we found these 3 habits as the central kind of must do's for
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David Rock: proactive accountability. And such an interesting area. So that solution is called team. Sorry deliver team is that solution is called deliver. So again, if anyone's interested in learning more about deliver put that in the chat, and our model is not about just getting this to the top team. It's about getting this to every employee or every manager, you know, in the same month or the same quarter.
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David Rock: to really create a movement around these habits. So we can scale really quickly and really impact people. So yeah, deliver with the company name would be great. So, Emma, I guess you know what question I'm going to ask you, what did we learn from the data about.
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Emma Sarro: Oh, yeah, yeah. So yeah, accountability is so interesting. And one thing I'll say is that the accountability is something that all of our brains crave like we love like clear boundaries, and we love guidance. And that's what accountability provides. As long as it's super clear, right? And as long as everyone in the organization is kind of like under the same guidelines like, we just kind of fall into that. That's what we kind of crave. And so
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Emma Sarro: by taking that away. I think maybe organizations pulled back a bit years ago. I think that it gave a lot of uncertainty to individuals. I don't know what I'm supposed to do to reach these, to move up in this organization. I'm not really clear on my guidelines. But what's interesting is in the data. So 2 things that came out of the data that were interesting. One is that individuals seem to
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Emma Sarro: do okay at accountability. At least they reported so. And they said, out of all the 3, they seem to have that down a bit. But where leaders struggled is reminding their team of why they're doing things like? What is the purpose behind.
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David Rock: Yeah.
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Emma Sarro: And that's a huge factor of getting people to follow through.
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David Rock: That's interesting, because the sort of sync expectations is intuitive, and people know they should do it, and with some nudging they'll probably do it better. It doesn't have a lot of like threat response in it, whereas driving with purpose, you've got to kind of lift your thinking up to a higher level. It feels a bit less tangible. Maybe it feels soft, right? Maybe it feels a bit fuzzy. So it's interesting. The
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David Rock: yeah, drive drive with purpose. It makes sense that that one would be a little bit harder for folks. And, by the way, as you're all listening like we're going to come, we're going to have time for questions in a couple of minutes. So feel free to shoot some questions about any of these 3 areas. A couple of good ones already in there will answer, but but we'll get to it. So drive with purpose interesting, and it has 2 parts drive with purpose. That middle habit. One of them is the purpose piece which is about
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David Rock: you know, to to help other people be accountable that they should really understand why they're doing something which helps them to actually really connect to the task be more motivated, but also be flexible when things go wrong. There's also the drive part. And the interesting question there is, how you drive like, how often do you check up on people? How do you actually do that? And really, you know, building a partnership around that so that you're you're you're bringing people back to the purpose at just the right frequency and just the right way.
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David Rock: I can see why that would be. Why.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, I would actually argue. And then I'm not sure about the people that have responded in the quiz. But I would argue that it
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Emma Sarro: that maybe you're not being as clear on your expectations that you think you are. That's something that we found in our, in our understanding of cognitive bias as well is that we think we're clear, and most of the time we're not as clear as we are. So I would argue that once you kind of walk through. What we kind of build into our 1st habit is that there are pieces there that maybe we're not doing to really make sure that our expectations are super
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Emma Sarro: clear. I mean, how often do you get things back from your team? And it's just like not quite exactly what you had asked for. It's kind of along the same lines, but not quite, or it takes a while for people to turn things in, because maybe they're trying to figure out what exactly you wanted. I think even if you thought you were clear, and there's so much evidence out there showing how, when we and it's it's a form of experience bias. We, we think that we're clear. We think that we.
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Emma Sarro: you know, see the world the same way that others do. But sometimes, especially when there's a power. Differential people aren't always clear on what you said.
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David Rock: Yeah, yeah, we you know, we did a, we, we build leadership models is one of the things we do. We've built about 40 leadership models for different companies. And we've talked about Microsoft a lot over the years. But there's 39 others. And one of those 39 others was our own leadership model. Keep it real, make it easy, do it better. And
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David Rock: took us, of course, longer than any other model to build our own. That's just how it is. But we did a we did a survey on on the leadership team at the time. It's a little while now. A little while ago now, but we did a survey, and
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David Rock: you know I'm you know I work hard on creating psych safety. I work hard on these things, you know, for obvious reasons.
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David Rock: I get, you know, called out hugely. If I'm not, you know, living the work we do right. So I was blown away between at the gap, between what I how I thought I was doing, and how other people saw me doing like there was still a really big gap for me to work on authentically, and you know, particularly in keep it real. Some of the elements of keep it real. And you know people said I was doing great at do it better.
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David Rock: always pushing and innovating, and all this right and pretty strong in make it easy, but just had all these interesting gaps, and I had no idea I was completely, completely blindsided by that, and had me be more thoughtful about taking time, asking for more feedback. And just, you know, making sure. And I think you know, maybe in a sort of more hybrid world, where we're not seeing each other very often. It's sort of hard to get a vibe on. How
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David Rock: harder to get a vibe. I know when we get our team together and we meet in New York we get some time. We have some drinks like all these things kind of come out. And so I'm keen at Nli to have that mixed. You know that more hybrid situation where lots of virtual work, but also coming together, maybe monthly, to have those relationships. And I think that helps with closing that gap a bit.
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David Rock: And but yeah, there's a really really big gap between what people think they do and what they actually do. We call it intent versus impact. It's such an interesting, an interesting thing. So anyway, back to accountability, let's take a look at some questions that are coming up. There's some interesting questions coming up in the group. I want to take this one in the Q. And a. My question is, how do you foster psych safety when there's been a history of a lack of trust.
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David Rock: you know, asking for feedback, like an asking for feedback. Strategy is really powerful. If people do it even reasonably well, it creates trust, and then, of course, you have to deliver on what you've said or what they've said. In some way. You don't have to do everything people tell you. But you have to kind of circle back. And you know, the research on this stuff is clear. It's about doing. It's about setting small expectations and meeting them.
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David Rock: You know, it's it's it's it's, you know, maybe saying you didn't do less like, Hey, we're not going to do those 10 things. We're just gonna focus on these 3. And then making sure you do focus on these 3 things. So sometimes it's just companies taking on too much making too big promises. And let's simplify the promises. And let's actually deliver back to accountability in a way. But that's my perspective. What do you see from the research, Emma.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, yeah, that's so interesting. I mean, I think, ultimately, you're trying to change the culture. And so this happens over time. And we talk about how to slowly change the culture. So now all of the shared behaviors are one way, but that takes time. It takes social norms coming in play, and like people trying new behaviors over time. So while we can embed behaviors really quickly, it does take maybe one at a time. So over
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Emma Sarro: time people may start observing their leaders doing something different. And then they start kind of like being the role modeling that leaders can do kind of slowly changes the behavior. So it's 1 of those things that as long as there's consistency in leadership around like acting on these behaviors, you'll see a ripple effect throughout the organization. But it's not an immediate switch.
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David Rock: Yeah, and it sounds a little gratuitous. But I would literally say, growth mindsets like safety and accountability like, that's how you deepen trust. Right you you get everyone focused on learning. You make sure it's safe for people to really contribute. And you make sure people have clarity on expectations and and standards, and
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David Rock: you know, you really
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David Rock: You know, we've weave those things in and don't try to do them overnight. Don't try to do them in a month, right? A minimum would be like a month on growth. Mindset, a month on psych safety, a month on accountability. That'd be a minimum. You do 3 and a quarter better to do, you know, 2 months on each, or 3 months on each, or 4 months on each, or, as one larger firm is doing 6 months on each.
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David Rock: somewhere between 2 and 6 months on each, depending on the size of organization, where you're really getting a chance to embed these, and get people into the practice of them, and encouraging and nurturing, and get this to every people manager, get these ideas to every people, manager, really quickly, but over time like to the minimum.
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David Rock: the minimum time for each one is a month. So if you're trying to get growth mindset across your business, it's it's over at least one month.
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David Rock: Just that module.
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David Rock: And so it sort of starts to give you a bit of a formula
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David Rock: of sort of how we're thinking about this. But if you've got, you know, 10,000 employees, you can easily do you know, growth mindset in 3 months or 4 months, maybe 3 months with a break. Right? So in one year, 10,000 employees one year, you can do all 3 really powerfully and and have a good cadence, and not that much actual learning time, but it jumps in there. I saw some people have to jump off. Really fun thing I want to say before we get to more questions.
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David Rock: I'm psyched about next week's your brain at work. Live because we are going to do something we've never done before. We are going to introduce you to Niles in real time, who has a voice now in every way possible. He has a voice, a sense of humor, and a bit of an attitude at times, and he's an amazing coach. It's blowing all of us away at how effective he's picked up our coaching model.
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David Rock: And so we're going to play with our AI next week. We're actually ready to to get Niles into organizations at scale. Now, we've had about a thousand seats as a beta test, and we're ready to put him out into the world. So you're going to get to meet Coach Niles next week? And you'll be able to actually start putting it into your organizations as well. He's really he's blowing my mind. So just wanted to get get that out there. So join join next week for sure.
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Emma Sarro: I thought you were going to say that he was a surprise guest, so he just gave you gave away the surprise
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Emma Sarro: surprise. Yeah, he is a surprise guest, but it's it will actually have a series of conversations with him that it just you'll see like.
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David Rock: It's it's really, really powerful and switching between like advice and coaching. It's just the right way and kind of digging in. It's it's yeah, it's really it's really interesting. We're we're trying to study the percentage of interactions that result in a level 4 insight in under 5 min. And that's the metric that we're going for. And we're gonna compare all the different models out there against that.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah. And we're the best to do it. We understand insight. We know the questions, the ways to get people to insight quickly. So that's embedded in Niles is all of our work on insight and all of our coaching, our coaching questions and everything. So Niles has all of that.
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David Rock: Yeah. Yeah. And I've been watching Niles coaching and seeing if I could come up with better questions. And now he's actually got it. He's got it. It's really interesting. So let's go to some speaking of questions. Let's go to some questions. There's 1 from Kate, so you can put them in the Q. And a. Or just put them in the chat. We'd love to hear some questions and comments from folks. How do you create a solid Gpa. As a leader for your team when the norm of the organization is not aligned. Can you influence up
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David Rock: as well? I think it's an important question. I believe you can create a climate in your team. I think you can create a climate that's really different to the climate in other teams. And people learn from that. I think you can do that. You know climate where people are excited to learn and passionate about learning, a climate where people debate in a healthy way.
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David Rock: where people are really clear on outcomes and hold each other accountable. I think we've all been in teams like that, and without necessarily the whole organization being like that. So I do think you can.
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David Rock: And you know, we can work at a team level. We can put what we call a hive together, which is a a series of zoom sessions. Where you learn, you know, one habit at a time over time. So we we can actually do this at a team level rather than a whole organizational level, tactically. But it's it's very feasible to do it. And then you'll find other teams going? Why are you guys doing so well? And why is everyone so happy in that team? What can we? You know? How do we get that as well.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, yeah, so yeah, and actually, psychological safety is measured academically at the team level. That's where Amy Edmondson termed this is the level that psychological safety exists. So you can imagine that your ability to grow and adapt is also seen at team level and accountability. But I think when others, as David says, when others look at the team, why are you doing so well, like, what are you doing
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Emma Sarro: to get there? And so I think it can absolutely just like a cultural change by looking at norms over time. You can see that. But it also encouraged that buy-in by leadership as well. You know. Why is this team doing so? Well? I want my team to get there as well.
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David Rock: Yeah, yeah, interesting. Interesting. Any other questions coming up in the chat that you wanted to jump into?
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Emma Sarro: Let's see. Yeah, you know. Shelly asked earlier about like, how do we encourage a leader that has joined that has imposter syndrome to feel like she needs to speak up. So how do you kind of like motivate someone that's joined you that, you know, came in with imposter syndrome. You know? What am I doing here.
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David Rock: Yeah, it's an interesting question. I feel like that's 1 of those I'm asking for a friend. Questions. It's for sure. But we'll see. Yeah. Interesting challenge. I mean, I think
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David Rock: you know, being explicit about these kinds of things is actually helpful. You don't necessarily want to say, Hey, I have imposter syndrome. But you might say, you know, hey, I'm new here, trying to, you know, find the right way to interact with everyone, and I'm going to try some different things. And and I'd love to ask for your feedback.
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David Rock: And you know, try some different things and literally ask for people's feedback. What do you? What am I doing? Well, I should keep doing. What could I do? Differently?
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David Rock: if I was, you know, leader joining a team. I would take a few weeks of experimenting like that, and then ask everyone for feedback to get a sense of what's working and and how to best work with the team. I think that's the best that's the best tool for you know, for for for really creating the right environment.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah. And organizations can benefit from, you know, really investing in training and learning for their leaders. I mean, based on that that recent. I think it was that recent Gallup engagement survey that just showed that managers are the ones that are the least engaged and pointing to needing to invest in learning and training of those leaders. So it's beneficial to like, have that culture of learning and growth
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Emma Sarro: growing for sure, which actually is where our lead program came from which also has embedded Gpa throughout
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Emma Sarro: our lead program, is specifically built to to train leaders.
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David Rock: Yeah, lots of things happen out of lead. So we haven't talked about it much for a while, but it's still out there. It's actually going through one of the biggest retailers at the moment using it. It's getting some really interesting feedback. And you probably guess who that is. But it's it's getting some really interesting results. But lead lead is the 1st time we've put together like an off the shelf leadership program, covering all the critical habits. So 9 critical habits for leading manage self.
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David Rock: mobilize others, drive results. And one of the things that came out of lead was actually Niles. We created Niles initially, just for lead. And then everyone said, Hey, I want just Niles. And then we also wove growth, mindset psych safety, accountability into lead. And we saw that as the 3 big themes, so it was a huge innovation for us and lead the interesting thing with lead. A couple of interesting things. One is, it's the same core skills for every level of leader, the same core people skills
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David Rock: and self management skills. Right? So whether you're a 1st time manager or a CEO.
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David Rock: You need to manage yourself right and manage your brain in the same way, but different context, different intensity.
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David Rock: It's really interesting to see that. So you can have a common language for all levels of leader. And then the other thing that with with lead is, you can.
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David Rock: you can have common language across everyone. So you can. You can have common language, but different delivery styles. So maybe there's a completely digital version
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David Rock: that people can go through which, you know, we have the platform for that. And then maybe you add real time things, you know, at different levels and all that. So so yeah, leads an interesting one. I think we're coming to the end. Just a reminder if anyone wants, and I can see a few in the chat. But anyone wants to kind of dig into any of the solutions. So grow, team, deliver just put the company your company name, and the name of the solution you're interested in, we'll follow up. And a really nice pathway at the moment is literally all 3
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David Rock: growth mindset psych accountability over, you know, no less than 6 months ideally. No more than 18 months somewhere in there and impact the whole organization with that kind of strategy that that seems to be like the right way to to do things.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah. And I think we have a poll for all other things that you know, you'd like our support on
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David Rock: Let's get that poll up, and then we'll wrap up. We always forget the poll, don't we? Let's get the
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David Rock: Let's get the poll up.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah. But yeah, for next week, though, actually, maybe a good transition to what we're talking about next week, as you're looking at the poll is just how? How are we developing our AI agents right? And like, what does a leadership? AI look like? Which is what what we're kind of starting this, like big series on AI and Niles Niles will probably be a part of all those sessions.
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David Rock: Yeah.
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David Rock: yeah, so literally, if you if you if you're a lawyer, you want a legal AI that understands legal processes, language context, right? You don't want a general? AI. So what kind of AI do you want as a leader?
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David Rock: It actually needs a certain approach. It's not a general AI. And so we're going to be looking at that and thinking, you know more deeply about that. And, by the way, executive briefings in the poll, we've got a new executive briefing on on leveraging AI in your organization. So the critical habits to amplify yourself
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David Rock: or your whole organization. So that's 1 of the briefings. If you're interested in that, we're also doing briefings on transforming learning and all sorts of things. So I think we can pretty much wrap up there. Thanks, Emma, for great conversation today. Thanks everyone for being here.
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David Rock: Tony, and everyone behind the scenes. And yeah, excited to dig in. Next week we're going to meet Niles. Have some conversations with him. I'm I'm telling you. It's it's really quite something. It's you can see the future of the world in those conversations.
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David Rock: Thanks very much. Everyone thanks, Emma. Thanks, Tony, and thanks everyone for being here.
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Emma Sarro: Thanks, David. Yeah. And as we close off, I have one thing to drop in the chat for you all. Whoever is still here, as we're building out our summit, we'd love to hear from you on. What do you want to hear about what's challenging for you like? What exactly are you. What kind of session would you want like? What are your current challenges? We're going to make sure that we answer those in the summit. So drop that in the chat for anyone to
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Emma Sarro: take and answer. And if you haven't already taken our Gpa survey, you know, you get an email in response.
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Emma Sarro: That kind of shows what where your gaps are, and also a way to contact us if you'd like to find out more about those specific solutions. But as we close off. I hope you enjoy today's conversation. I definitely do. Always. I love hearing what's coming up for you. Your questions any past Friday, Webinar on demand. Look for your brain at work. Wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts like spotify, we are, we have a special episode
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Emma Sarro: of next week. So make sure you sign up, and this is where we officially say farewell for the week. So on behalf of myself, David and all of our background team, Tony specifically thank you, and thanks for joining, and we'll be here at the same time next week. Take care.