Sharing evidence-based strategies and actionable recommendations, we invite the NLI community to learn the science that can help dismantle barriers, mitigate biases, and drive systemic change within organizations. On this episode, join Janet Stovall, (Global Head of DEI), and Christy Pruitt-Haynes (Distinguished Faculty, Leadership and Performance) to explore powerful interconnected themes underpinning DEI, amplify your impact as a change agent, and contribute to building more equitable and innovative workplaces.
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Shelby Wilburn: Welcome back to another week of your brain at work. Live! I'm your host, Shelby Wilburn, for our regulars. We're happy to have you back. And for our newcomers. We're excited to have you here with us today. For the first time in this episode we're celebrating black history month and sharing evidence-based strategies and actionable recommendations to help dismantle barriers, mitigate biases and drive systemic change within organizations. Now, as I quickly share some housekeeping notes drop in the chats or comments where you're joining in from.
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Shelby Wilburn: we are recording today's session. So if you're interested in a replay, be on the lookout for an email later today. That email is also going to include a survey for feedback as well as a number of resources that are aligned to today's conversation. We suggest putting your phone on. Do not disturb quitting out of your email and messaging app. So you can get the most out of today's discussion. And it's also going to help with your audio and video quality, and we love interaction. So feel free to share your thoughts and comments with us in the chat.
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Shelby Wilburn: Now, to get this show underway. I'm going to introduce our speakers.
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Shelby Wilburn: Our first guest is a public speaker who engages on a variety of topics surrounding Dee and I, leadership and women in the workplace, not to mention her Tedx talk on banishing the miscongeniality complex.
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Shelby Wilburn: She's also the author of the book. Would the world be better if we were all alike. Her expertise and leadership, development, diversity, strategic planning, and Hr. Led her to join Andli, where she engages in client-facing, consulting, and facilitating teams to support organizational programs. A warm welcome to our distinguished faculty of leadership and performance at Nli. Christy Pruitt Haynes. Thanks for being here today, Christy.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Absolutely thanks, Shelby. You're welcome.
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Shelby Wilburn: And for our next guest a long history of driving change and building culture in large, complex organizations has given her deep expertise around Dei practices and principles, especially in the area of communications. In fact, she broke barriers as one of the first, and for a long time only, Black sea level speech writers in the Fortune 100, her 3 Ted presentations, challenging businesses to get serious about inclusion have collectively over 2.5 million views
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Shelby Wilburn: for super powers, applying neuroscience to solve Dei challenges, building actionable dii frameworks and brokering honest di conversations among top leaders. Please join me in welcoming analyze global head of de, and I, Janet M. Stovall. Great to hear, have you here, Janet? And I'm going to pass it over to you. Thanks, Shelby.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Yes, and thank you for having both of us here. We are so excited about this conversation, I think it is both timely and needed.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: So we wanna kick things off with a quote that hopefully, you can all see. But William has has. T. Excuse me if I'm getting my words out. American lawyer, judge, and civil rights advocate gives us a different way to really look and think about history. Primarily, it's all about creating a better future. And so often that's not what we think of when we think of history. But that's one of the opportunities that we have
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: given what Nli does, and then combining that with the current backlash that we all see against diversity, equity, and inclusion, along with the fact that February
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: is black History month. We really viewed this through the lens of neuroscience and wanted to ask the question, What can it teach us about now?
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: And what can it teach us about what's next?
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Turns out the answer is a lot. But unfortunately we only have an hour. So we've narrowed it down to 3 things that we want to focus on during our time together.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: we really think about the 3 things that black history and neuroscience can teach us about diversity, equity, and inclusion. Today we landed on the 3 of bias bars. Equity.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Historical trauma is real, and I would love to underline that real. It is very real. And we need to move the big rocks first.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: So when we think about that, let's jump in and really start with this wonderful conversation on bias. Barring equity.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: you know, for a lot of people, when we think about bias. We really think of discrimination which in the workplace most people assume, was addressed through affirmative action, and in part it was so. In other words, people assume bias and discrimination is a part of our history.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: So what can we learn when we really look at that history? And how does neuroscience help us examine it, Janet. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: Well, there is some truth in the fact that bias can, and it does lead to discrimination. And and we talk about the workplace. Discrimination against black people was precisely what affirmative action was supposed to fix.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: However, what we know now from neuroscience is that if you have a brain, you have bias and laws, can't fix that cognitive bias is unconscious. And when you drop cognitive bias into society with its history of systematic exclusion, you end up with implicit bias.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: An implicit bias can be unconscious, but it also can be conscious. Laws can address the conscious of the provable bias. They can minimize the tangible outcomes of bias which are discrimination and exclusion.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: But the bias you can't see the bias. You can't prove you can't legislate that away.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: So whereas affirmative action worked against systematic inequity which is about the law.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: it couldn't undo the systemic inequity that's unseen. That's embedded. But is very real that bias has created and sustained.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: And now here we have Scotus, which has started to dismantle even the few guard rails we had. So when we think about it systemically.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: affirmative action did what it could. But there's only so much it could do. And if we take that down into the more common level in the workplace. Then I think, let's talk about what that means. And Christy, giving your talent performance expertise. What do you think black history has taught us about bias. Once we actually can manage to get into an organization.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Great question. Thank you. So you know, many people believe that our workplace cultures are completely fair. But more likely if you're one of those who believes that it just means you are unaware of the biases that exist. Maybe they aren't affecting you, or you just haven't really taken those blinders off to pay attention to them.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: So these biases can affect everything from hiring to the top executives to bringing in entry level staff. and what people do to get promoted, and even the systems that organizations have in place to drive those promotions
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: they also influence, whose ideas are valued and whose concerns are taken seriously, and how we design customer experiences.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: I remember going into a store with a friend of mine who was a different race, and the way I was treated versus the way she was treated were very different, so that customer experience was extremely different for us, and a lot of people would not have noticed it, because we all pay attention to what our experience is as opposed to thinking about how things are affecting others.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: It's an even bigger issue, though, when we think about leadership and leaders who have that outside role within an organization love to share a few stats on this.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: So black people are roughly 14% of the Us. Population
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: but hold less than 6% of all executive roles within corporations.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: And when we think at the very top level, black Ceos are less than 2% of all fortune, 500 Ceos.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: So bias also affects, how leaders operate. Once we're in an organization, what's allowed and what isn't.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: When we think about similarity bias, which is one of the most common that we experience
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: leaders who favor other leaders or favor those who are similar to them
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: that can lead to those unfair resource distributions and really unfair task assignments. Again, we lean into the people that are most like ourselves, and when we experience that it affects all of the decisions that we make, even when we aren't aware of it.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: and that unconscious bias also influences succession planning and biased executives may lean towards candidates that most resemble them. Maybe they went to the same university. Maybe they grew up in the same area. They all play golf together on the weekends, and that subconsciously really affect who we lean into, and who would reach out to most
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: unconscious bias can also affect who gets a job in the first place, and then how they're judged within that role and how they lead. We've seen so many stats on performance reviews, and how people assess whether someone is being successful or not. So often times women are judged more harshly, particularly when they have a man who's doing that judging.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: and that happens throughout every industry and every organization.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Excuse me so sorry. And this has a huge effect on all of diversity, equity, and inclusion.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: The fact that you can have you know. And I believe, Janet, actually, I was just thinking about this. I believe you're working on an article about that, aren't you? And I've also heard you say, and this is something that really resonated for me. It's one of the reasons I've been specifically saying diversity, equity, and inclusion instead of Dei.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: But I heard you say that instead of saying Dei, we should actually say those words, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Is that really important?
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: Well, I am working on article and saying, diversity, equity, and inclusion is important. The article is, gonna talk about how leaders actually may be a big issue in the backlash on diversity, equity and inclusion. We think about the fact that you know the CEO and the people at the top.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: They always want to do this work, and they're always gonna push it and hear the power comes from the top. But what we're seeing is that actually, leaders have a outside role. You said that earlier leaders have an outsized role in what happens in an organization. So it stands to reason that they'd have an outsized role in what happens with diversity, equity, inclusion. Unfortunately, their biases
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: may be playing a huge role in the backlash itself, even if they feel it. Even if they say we're getting this from customers. We're getting this from
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: employees. But we don't want to do it. They're biased. We have a role in that. And the article that I'm working on is going to use our seeds model of unconscious bias to examine exactly why leaders might be playing that role in this current backlash and so we'll look out for that. I'm I'm working on it, I'll get to it. But then to address that question that you asked me about why I wanna say diversity, equity, inclusion? Well.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: I really, I wrote this Linkedin post about it, and I had no idea that it would blow up the way it did. So. What I what I realized from that is, a lot of people are feeling the same way. But the reason I won't say Dei, is because.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: as I wrote in that post, if we don't spell out
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: what we're doing. If we don't
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: distinguish between diversity, equity, and inclusion, and if we don't say those words, we run the risk of underestimating the damage that's being done by those who trying to dismantle it. And I'm not gonna call names. But we all saw that Post Dei must die.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: I'll ask you this. If somebody had said
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: no, say it the way say it all the way out. Say diversity must die. Equity must die. Inclusion must die.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: I dare say there would have been some different headlines behind that. We hide the importance when we use the acronyms. And so what we know, too, it in a Li. It's the same thing about bias just saying you have bias and not labeling it, not saying what it is, not, pointing to exactly what type of bias it is.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: It takes away the ability to mitigate it. Bias in general, you can't solve bias in particular, you can mitigate. And so we gotta name it.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: You gotta name it. We gotta label it in order to mitigate the bias. And we have to name the work so that we can highlight, each aspect at each, and the role of each one of those aspects in building a stronger, more equitable organization.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: So when we talk about organizations, then. Christy, I'll swing this back to you.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: What does history and the reality of bias tell us about the future of diversity and equity and inclusion?
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: I'm glad. Yes. Great question. Great question. Well, you know, I think it really calls to action, or at least it should be that we can't eliminate bias, but we can mitigate it. As you say it, you know. II think both of us would agree. I wish we had a magic wand to just wave and say, Okay, all the bias is gone, everything is equal. But we know history won't allow us to do that.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: For decades. And a lot has been helping organizations really do that as scale. And we've seen the power of that collective behavior change. And that's what it's gonna take. It's gonna take each of us working together. This can't just be happening at the top of an organization. We really have to see all employees, all team members at every level really focusing on this and thinking about how important it is and taking action to move in that direction.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: And we've actually and to to follow up on that, there's actually a quote out there. I think Margaret, me and she said, never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed individuals can change the world. And in fact, it's the only way. It's the only thing that ever has. You know, for me to say that
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: a lot of people would say, well, that sounds particularly optimistic and sunny for you. And and and it probably does. But
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: you know, I truly believe that. And I said that in my Ted talk when I said that I believe business can dismantle racism, and history has shown us that is really one of the only places when only entities that has ever really tried, and despite the fact that it looks a little.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: you know, Stormy. Now. the truth of the matter is, business is the only entity that has the power.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: the ability, the resources, and increasingly the motivation to actually change this. So I believe that business can do this, and I think that if we have to, we have to focus on it in this world to do it. That's what history has taught us. That business can change this.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: I agree, and I'm so glad you said about the motivation, because that is such an important piece of this. There has to be a reason, and the reason has to go beyond just the kind of touchy, feely feel good. And this is something you and I have talked about before. Those Kumbaya moments are important, but that's not what's going to really move us ahead. And and then thinking about this, really a historical perspective.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: A lot of this is all around the historical traumas that have happened, and we've seen them show up both in personal lives and professional lives. But that trauma really affects so much of how we engage and so much of how we think about Dei.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: So I know you've heard this, that if black people could just leave the past in the past. and apply all of that energy to changing the future. Do you think that's true? Is it possible to just leave the past in the past. And really, just apply that energy to to changing and dealing with the here and now, what's your? What are your thoughts?
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: Okay, no. And don't you just hate that word just if we can just do this. So we could just do that. I mean, honestly, if we could just leave it in the past, wouldn't we? I would I would deal with this every day. I'd love to talk about something different. The problem is, we can't. I think it was Faulkner who said, the past is never dead. It's not even past.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: so we can't just forget about it, because
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: that trauma, that past trauma is our current trauma. It's still with us. And we know that. I mean, we have. We have documented disparities that black people live with economic gaps, the professional things that don't happen. Educational gaps there are also, though, some physical and cognitive effects that we are slowly beginning to recognize.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: I think it was Dr. Arlene TG. Geronimus. She coined. This term called weathering and weathering is
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: a description. It describes the effects of systemic oppression, racism, and classism on the actual body.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: And there's data that support this public health shows that black people suffer more from chronic disease and premature death
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: for black women living with the double weight of racism and sexism. It's even worse.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: We see the stats. Black mothers are 3 times more likely to die during childbirth.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: and one that we may not be aware of, for example, is that black women get uterine fibroids significantly more than women of other races. 25% of black women, aged 18 to 30 have them. The norm is only 6%, and by their late forties 70 to 80% of black women may develop these tumors.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: I know this personally among my family and friends, not having 5 word tumors is exception rather than the rule. You probably know that, too.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: And so bottom line historical trauma can affect physical health.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: and that is not about lifestyle. It's not about degrees of education. There's studies that show that black women have more maternal morbidity and mortality, even if they have Phds than white women do in society. So it is not about lifestyle. Decisions is not about education, and there's an evolving science called epigenetics, that suggest that historical trauma can actually change our DNA.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: So what we're starting to understand is that cognitive health is also affected by these centuries of racism against black people, especially women.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: Historical trauma is real. It can severely impact the brain. It can take months, years, decades to recover from those effects.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: And there's a study. In fact, right now.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: I Amri Brain Health Center that found that black women who faced more to racial discrimination had stronger brain responses related to detecting and managing threats. And if there's one thing we know it in a lot, it's about threats. Our scarf model, which has been around for a while, which has recently been Redone consistently shows. When we feel threatened, we simply do not and cannot function at our highest levels.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: And so the reality is that employees of color, black employees in particular, and black women even more so, are struggling. We see it. We've seen suicide. You know, Christy, you talked about how these things affect you personally. I have 2 dear, very dear friends who are close in age, or younger than me, who are waiting for heart transplants right now.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: I it was a shock to me 2 within my I mean 2 in my circle, and so, and I don't think I don't think that's a coincidence. So the question is.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: what can organizations actually do?
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: And how can they do something without alienating their other employees?
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: I'm glad you brought that up, and I would love to just for a moment. Go back to some of those health effects, and then we'll we'll move ahead. And I took the slides down. There was a request. I don't know if you saw it, Janet, that they wanted to see our faces more so here are lovely, smiling faces. But you know what's interesting is, we all know none of us can do our best work
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: when we don't feel well, none of us can do our best work when we are struggling with health issues. So that's another reason and another motivation, I think, for organizations to really do all they can to mitigate the effects of these bias, because if Janet just pointed out, there are true health consequences.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: and if I am not feeling. Well, if I'm dealing with fibroids, if I'm dealing with heart issues, if I'm dealing with all of the physical manifestations of stress, there's no way I'm gonna show up and and do anything you know effective in the in the workplace.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: And it's not just about me. It's about what the company gets from me. It doesn't, I mean yes, it's the right thing to do that I should feel better. But I can't contribute. I'm not. I'm not earning my salary. If I don't feel well. And so it it's in everybody's best interest to address this
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: absolutely, and the the amount of burnout that we've seen across all employees, but in particular, across employees of color and women of color. And I will get even more specific and just say black women, specifically, the amount of burnout that we're experiencing, and the way that that affects our ability to show up at work the way that affects even our ability to show up in our personal lives is
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: is so huge and so tremendous that, as you said, organizations really have a true reason and a true motivation to focus on this.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: And the truth is that racial trauma, it is very real. But as we've talked about some already that gender related trauma is just as real. So when we combine the 2. When we look at the intersectionality of a black woman, it really doubles the effect that we're experiencing the workplace.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: And I did a Ted talk years ago
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: about women in the workplace and ways that we can really succeed. And one of the things I talk about in that is, it takes everyone, sometimes rallying around us and acknowledging the realities that we're experiencing, and until everybody acknowledges those realities, it's next to impossible for us to overcome them.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: So one of the ways that organizations can really acknowledge what is happening and the way that it's affecting not only everyone in the workplace, but, as we mentioned black women specifically is for organizations to really prioritize psychological safety.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: One of the reasons we see so much stress we see so much trauma affecting us is, we don't necessarily feel that level of psychological safety to speak up about the issues that we're having. So when we look at some of those things like it affecting who's hired and affecting how people are promoted or evaluated. It takes a level of site safety to raise our hand and say, this is what's happening. This is what we're experiencing that sort of thing.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: So when we think about psychological safety, it's all about having the ability to ask questions, having the ability to push back on some of those decisions that we feel we need to push back on that ultimately will benefit everyone in the workplace.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: But when we think about site safety, not only does it benefit everyone, but we have to start with those who are most effective. We have to start with those who are most marginalized, which really brings us to the third fact, we want to talk about just a little bit. Before we do that, Janet. Anything else you want to say about site safety before we move ahead?
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: Yeah. You know, it's a term that has become very prevalent in the workplace, and you know it didn't allow we did a lot of work with the person who essentially, you know, we consider the godmother of Psych. Say, yes, Amy Edmonds and I had the pleasure of meeting her in person when we had ours. Our annual summit meeting, and one of the things I said to her was, I said, you know.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: one of the pushbacks I've heard we talk about psych safety, especially when we talk about sort of that intersectionality is, it's relative, because what makes one person feel psychologically safe in the space is not gonna be what makes somebody else feel psychologically safe because we come to it differently.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: And Sheena, how to talk about that. And one of the things she said was, Yeah, it's actually relative. And it's actually situational, because I can feel psychologically safe today in this team and not feel psychologically safe in another team. It really depends on that, on on who's who's in that team
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: and what I came from that was, it really depends on who's leading those teams. So if anybody back to that leadership issue again, if anybody can help make a team feel psychologically safe. It's gonna be the leaders. And I think we have to be aware of the fact that
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: psychological safety in an organization and in a culture is built one team at a time, because I think you've also heard me. you know, kind of give my side to the term belonging. I'm a firm believer that
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: the reason I push back a little bit on that term is because I believe that belonging
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: is experienced or organizations try to talk about belonging in one of 2 ways. They either talk about creating a space of belonging or giving people a sense of belonging. You can't do either. Because if you gonna create a space of belonging, what you're saying is you're gonna create this general
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: space, this universal space that everybody can feel a sense of belonging to the problem with that
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: is that if you're not co-creating that space with the people who are different, the people who maybe were most marginalized. We just talked about the difference there. If you're not co-creating that space, if somebody has decided what that space looks like, there's no way that everybody can feel like they belong to belong to it. If you say we're trying to give people a sense of belonging, and you've put the onus of inclusion on the person that feels excluded. You cannot do that. But what you can do
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: is you can intentionally include you can with an individual teams
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: intentionally, especially by leaders. Try to create psychological safety. Part of that is, you have to define what that means. Cause. What makes me psychologically safe is not gonna make somebody is not gonna make somebody who's not a black woman psychologically safe. So as a leader, your job, I think, is to define what does psychological safety look like in this team today on this project. And then team by team organizations can build a culture
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: not of belonging, but a culture in which people have the opportunity to feel a sense of longing because you can't give it to them. But you can create the opportunity for it. And to me that's what. What's important to me is because
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: I like things that are actionable. I'm all for aspiration. But I want you to do something. I want you tell me how to fix it, and inclusion depends on the organization, because what inclusion looks like at one place is not what it looks like, someplace, else what site safety looks like on one team is now it looks like on another, and the only people who can help define that are the people who lead.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: So when you talk about psych safety to me, I think that's within our control to create. And so that's why I believe it's important.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: I'm so glad you brought up. There are couple of points I wanna kind of double down on, if I can. First that co-creation piece. And if you're so right you cannot create. You can't have this sense of belonging in a system that's only been created by and for a very specific group
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: I at most I may feel welcomed, but I'm still gonna feel like a guest. So I really wanna have this sense of, you know belonging. And I completely agree with your thoughts on that
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: I need a hand in creating what that is, what that looks like and how it affects me. And when we think about the stats. We share earlier about the disparity and who's sitting at the top of organizations. There is not equal co-creation, because at those CEO levels everybody looks the same. For the most part, everybody is likely, you know, kind of operating in that same space. So it makes it much harder to think about co-creation.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: So we when we think about even the demographics of organization. You know, we wanna have that diversity going across every level, across every department. You have some organizations that may have, you know, looks like on paper. They have a lot of diversity when you look at their stats.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: but then it's all sitting at the lower level of the organization. Not they're not moving up. We aren't being promoted into those other positions. So so it still doesn't have that same sense that so many people assume or think that would be there
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: and then. Another thing that you mentioned about site safety that really stood out for me is
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: one person can feel it. That doesn't mean it exists for everybody, you know. Site safety is unfortunately not a universal thing that you could say. Oh, we automatically feel safe. I know I can speak up so why don't you? Why don't you have that same sense? And you know it's for a lot of the reasons that we talked about earlier, the way we respond from one person to another are going to be different.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: And the way someone responds to an individual in the organization affects whether or not they feel safe speaking up in the future. If I say something and your response is, Oh, Christy, being overly emotional. You know how black women can be sometimes angry. So subtle message to lean back and not say, anything else to you
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: so so just because someone else is feeling that level of site safety. We can't assume. It exists universally across the organization. And that's one of the things we talked about earlier with biases. Some people just don't see them.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: That's because it's not affecting them. We have to sometimes remove the idea of just looking at things through our own land and look at it through. How is this affecting everybody? Not just how it affects me, but what's happening for everybody else here, and unfortunately we? We don't always see that
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: it's interesting. I did a and a keynote for one of our clients who's in the Esg space and doing the research for that. I pulled up this report, and it said something about it. Did a survey of leaders in the Esg space, and it said.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: You know which demographic
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: feels like they belong.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: Surprise, surprise, the only demographic that felt like they belong were white cisgendered men everybody else was. There's a huge disparity about who felt like they belong. And you know, when you see those numbers when people actually say it, I mean, they didn't ask them, you know they didn't they? They just they just took it. And they cut the data because I do. I'm also a big believer in disaggregating data, because if you wanna help the people who are most marginalized. You have to disaggregate the data so you can figure out who that is, and it's back to like safety and anything else.
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If you don't disaggregate the data.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: you can't determine what people need. You know we talk about equity cause we love to use that term. People of color. We love the term bipoc. That's another one of those terms. I've decided 2024. I'm not gonna use anymore. Because, first of all, don't even know what it means. I don't know what bypock means. Is it?
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: it? What does buy mean? Is it, you know? Is it? Is it black, indigenous people of color. Well, people of color are black, our indigenous people. II don't like the terms, but the reality to get back to that. It is. It is really a situation of, we can't
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: provide psych safety. We cannot
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: look at inclusion if we don't really think about the fact that people are different, you know, say, we want diversity, and we we bring diversity into organizations. Then we say, Okay, now, you here act like everybody else we want. We say, we want diversity, but then we build organizations for assimilation, and
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: not only does that mess with, you know, our our site safety, and it brings up all the historical trump trauma. It also limits what the organization can do, because what is the benefit of diversity
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: if you don't leverage it? What is the benefit of people having different perspectives. If you want, everybody think alike, and you only reward
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: assimilation. So III really think when we talk about psych safety, which is what we wanna talk about. You know a lot. Now we have to think about what that means
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: individually, and that means we have to back into all these things like historical trauma. What does that do? What? What does that historical trauma? Maybe I don't even know that is affecting me, cause II don't even know it. I mean, I'm just there. What does that mean when I come into an organization and I'm trying to contribute, and I'm trying to beat, to leverage a diversity. What is, what is the ability? What is? What does that? How does that disable me to do that? How does that limit my ability to do that.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: And what that really brings up for me. I'm so glad you said that another phrase that I am banning and dropping for 2024 is culture fit? Because what culture fit sort of subtly says to people is, yes, we want you to come into our organization. But then we want you to act just like everybody else here.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: which you know kind of, goes back to what you were saying, and that we we're fine with you coming in with your diversity. But then, once you get here, maybe you can kind of take that down a bit, and you know, think like us act like us, etc.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: I've seen but many times. The goal is not to think and act alike.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: It's to think and act together, and there's a big difference. The goal isn't to come into an organization to have all of us at
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: and think and behave.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: It's for able to partner and work together and embrace those differences, embrace that innovation that those differences are going to bring, and the creativity and the different perspectives and that sort of thing.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: That's when organizations can really capitalize on diversity. But again, it takes that that first idea of welcoming all of those differences in as opposed to having the goal of. We want everyone to be a culture fit. So we all act to like and talk alike, and think alike, and dress alike, etc. That's when we really we miss out on the benefits that otherwise would be there. And it is
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: such an unfortunate thing. But that's one of those things that that systemically has happened in organization so often. You may bring people in, but then we want everybody to be the exact same thing, and it it just misses the boat for me.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Yes, that's the phrase that I use culture. Add, bring in your different perspectives. Add to what is already here, because that's the goal of diversity, right everyone to add their perspectives, and it sort of be layered on. And we learn from each other. Because, in my opinion, that's when we broaden the collective knowledge that the organization has to draw from.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: You know, when we know we bring in what you know and what I know and what David knows and what everyone else knows. That's when we then have this sort of 360 approach of of everybody's knowledge as opposed to just deepening what one person believes. So it's it's so important. I'm with you. Culture, add, is is my 2024 phrase. We got to do a whole new dictionary. But we got we as we're not gonna say anymore, we have to have a whole list of that. We'll do a whole job.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: I'm starting list now, and before we move on to talk about some of those systemic things in those big rocks, we have a question I'd love to to take a look at someone asked.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: do you have any suggestions for nonprofits who have addressed diversity and inclusion in dialogue with employers? But then no further action, or suggestions have been taken. So how can you move forward? And I think this is something we see in a lot of organizations. They talk about it. Maybe they try and give training on it. But then nothing happens. After that there's no follow up, and there's no real behavior change. So any thoughts there on how they can proceed.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: Yes, specifically, about nonprofits.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: That's interesting. I have. I work with one of the one of the people that is closest to me in life and and sort of professionally works in a nonprofit space. And she and I talk about this a lot. Nonprofits are interesting because their leadership. Is predominantly not
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: representative of
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: the demographics that a lot of nonprofits work for. So there's a real disconnect there, and that probably has a lot to do with why you talk about it. But nothing really changes, because the people in charge don't like you said earlier, don't really have a sense of what's wrong, and so often the best meaning folks want to do the right thing, and we know that, especially in nonprofit world, that's what you exist for to do the right thing. You wanna do the right thing.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: and you stop there like, oh, you believe that because I'm doing this work because I'm in this space.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: Of course I'm doing the right thing. Of course I'm making things better. It doesn't lend itself then to really looking at solutions to change things. But the same issues that we have in the for profit world.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: Where we talk about this, we don't do anything. I think they're exacerbated in the nonprofit world because they really think they are doing something. And so the question is, what do you do about it? Well.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: I am a firm believer in the business case for diversity, equity, and inclusion, and it gets a bad rap. There are people who will push back and say. but the moral case is more important. And like, I think that's definitely gonna be the issue in the nonprofit world because they're they're all about the moral case. And I've had people who have said to me, especially when you talk about black people in the space we talk about it can be almost exploitation. At Summit. I had I did a talk with at one of our panels one of the professors who's a professor at Stanford Jordan Spark. He's a soark. He's a professor at Stanford.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: He and I thought tooth and nail before this. I thought, we are not gonna be able to get on the stage because we cannot agree with each other on this one, but we finally actually found a place where we could agree. And what we figured out was this.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: it is the culture you do have to make the culture better. You do have to do it for the right reasons. But whether it is a nonprofit world, or whether it is a for-profit world at the end of the day. Organizations exist
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: to do something
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: in the for profit world. It's about solve for either making money or saving money. It's about the bottom line in the non profit world. There's a mission
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: at the end of the day. That's your business case and start with the business case. If you start with what it is you are there to do. If you, if you start with what is diversity solving for here, you can then sort of
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: reverse engineer, how you gonna do it. If your goal is, we're solving to do the right thing. We're solving to make everybody feel sense of belonging. There's a real hard. It's not real easy to come up with a a game plan for that. How do you know it when you do it, how do you measure it? What are you looking for? What? What does? What does success look like? If, however.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: you identify a tangible goal, whatever it is, which means you objectify your goal, which means you come up with what the business cases you put numbers around it. You can reverse engineer near your way into that, and you can build policies and procedures, and you could build ways to measure whether or not you get there. And like, I said. For the nonprofit world. It's a little bit harder because you come into that thinking that our goal is something that is
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: the right thing to do. The moral case. There's a business case for you, too, because at the end of the day I had this discussion with my daughter, who works
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: for college. And I said, Yeah, II have a hard time explaining this. She goes, look, I work in. I work in, you know, development for college. Our job is to get money in here.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: That's what we have to do. We have a we have a bottom line, too, and most nonprofits have some sort of a bottom line. So if we start there, and if we start thinking about the value of diversity within any organization, and listen to the people who you brought in because you want their their ability.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: You'll find out the real tangible things you can do. And once you identify the real tangible goals. It is a lot easier to identify the non-tangable, the diversity, equity, and inclusion goals that will help you achieve those tangible goals
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: absolutely, and I love that you say it. Listen to the people that you brought in, because that reminds us that first you have to bring in the right people, and one of the things that you mentioned that is so true about nonprofits is so often
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: who works there and who they are serving, look at and live very different lives. So what's up happening is a lot of assumptions are made.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Those nonprofits sometimes can make some assumptions on what to do, how to do it, and what this group really needs without actually engaging that group to ask them. So it's one of the reasons. And whether it's a nonprofit or for profit, it really reminds us that
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: we need to listen to our customers. We need to know what they're experiencing and what they're living. And one of the best ways to do that is to have them be a part of our organization. Just ask in those 4 walls, just ask the people who get there, cause you really run the risk of the save. Your complex does not help us, no matter where we are. So I'm like, you know. Just ask. You got black people there just ask a black person.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: Yes, and and I know that I know that there's a discussion that we don't want to have the burden of educating everybody. So yeah, there's that, you guys, you have to balance that. But at the end of the day, if you've gone through the trouble to bring people in for their diversity, and then you don't you stop there? We got you here, you know bodies in the building. If you don't figure out how to bring the brains into the business or the brains into the organization. Having the bodies in the building doesn't help you
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: absolutely spot on.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: And and what that really, you know, to to go back to. I think we we had a wonderful tangent. So so, to go back to what we were saying earlier. One of the things this reminds us of is we have to move those big rocks first. And what that really means is we have to think about some of the systems that are in place. We have to think about the things that we can control and really focus on that
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: and I've heard you talk a lot about moving those big rocks first when it comes to Dei. So can you tell us a bit more about what you really mean by that what that looks like and how each of us can do it.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: I think when I say, Move the big rocks first, it really means 2 things to me. Number one. It it harkens back to what you said earlier about starting with the most marginalized
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: in many parts of the world. The big rock is gender, or it can be orientation, or it can be religion. But in United States the big rock is race. We know it. We don't like to say it, but we know that. And if we don't think we know it, think about what Scotus aimed for first, when they started tearing down guardrails race.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: When we think about what the the people who are pushing back against diversity, equity, and inclusion, the Dei trolls and the detractors are going in on. What are they going in on hardest race?
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: And while race may be just a social construct, it's intangible. Existence has some really tangible effects. So that is the issue that we gotta focus the lion share of our efforts on. And history has shown us that that's not just the right thing to do that. There's real value in doing it. I mean cause. Think about the civil rights movement.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: It became the wellspring of all the great movements of social justice and equality in the United States. It pioneered many of the organizational forms and political strategies that were important to the gay, the women's and the Latino rights movements. Among others. When we move that big rock first, we clear the space for everyone else.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: The second thing that I think about when I say, move the big rocks first is to focus on the systems. You just said that focus on the systems, not just the individuals.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: Racism is personal, and it involves a lot of bad actors. It always has, it always will. But you just cannot change some people.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: and, as we said before, even the best of us who don't consider ourselves racist. We are dealing with bias. So what we have to focus on writ large is systems. That's what affirmative action did. That's what it worked. It went for the systems. And so if we think about bringing that into the workplace, Christy, I'll pose that back to you. What is important. What is the real importance of system? Change in the workplace?
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: First of all, it's everything it is. It is to me one of the biggest opportunities that every organization has.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: because so many of our systems are the things that reinforce behaviors. And what I really mean by that is an organization can say diversity is important. But if there isn't a system that being rewards or reinforces, people who value diversity, then they're gonna easily step away from it.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: And things like we talked about at some earlier hiring practices, how we promote people, how we compensate people, all of those are major systems within organizations. Let's look at each of them, you know a little closer. When we think about compensation, we've all heard about the wage gap. Whether it exists, it exists, or in across gender, across race, across so many different demographics.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: There are easy things that organizations can do to help mitigate against those wage gaps that are part of their compensation system.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: One of the easiest things that a company can do is stop asking employees what their previous salaries were, and then using that to base their current salary.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: The reason that matters so much if part of your compensation system is to base somebody's compensation on what they made at their last job
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: that goes into it with the assumption that they were compensated fairly at their last job. And if they weren't, weren't, all you're doing is continuing this gap that has existed likely for that individual's entire career.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: And the reality is, if I come into a job and a white man comes in to do the exact same job.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: you're gonna expect the same thing from us. So we should be Comp the same. So instead of basing our compensation on what we made previously based on the job itself. What is this job worth to the organization? So when we talk about systems, that's an easy thing that companies can do to really start providing that equity, that we are all looking for that equity that is going to really say as an organization.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: this matters to us, and not just say, but demonstrate, because it's easy to say it, but ultimately want the organization to demonstrate it.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: That is so. That is so. II just love to hear you say that, because I think we can all relate to that, especially you know, especially if we are. If we are in an under represented group. Don't ask me what I or we're not earned before, because it probably wasn't fair. I mean, reality is that we know the system is not fair. So to then say, we're gonna lean into the system when it's convenient. We know it's not fair, but you know what if I can pay you less lean to the system.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: to your point. It just exacerbates, and it extends and it increases. It, just it, it it, it, it, it, it expands and it just doubles down on the
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: in equity that exists. It just makes it worse. And so I'm I'm really glad to use that example, because I think that's one that we, a lot of us can look at and and have experienced.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Yes, yes, and that's just one of the systems that exist. You know other things that are out. There are systems around hiring. I just had a conversation earlier today with someone who is looking to transition to another position at a different organization, and what she keeps running into is, people are being hired, based on who they know not what they know.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: And we've all seen that. And that is another system. If you truly, as an organization, say, we want to bring in the best person, then take away just hiring people based on their network really focus on lean into, ask those questions that are going to demonstrate somebody's abilities as opposed to just someone's network. So those systems again represent such an opportunity
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: to to really prioritize that equity, to really lean into what companies are saying matter? It's a way to demonstrate it. And and focusing on that really creates an environment where companies can truly move the needle and succeed with all of their talent, not just with certain members, not just with certain groups, but truly capitalize on the value that diversity, equity, and inclusion are designed and and could potentially bring into your company.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: We have, we have a number of questions. I would love to take some time, maybe to get to some of our questions and cause. The truth is, I could go on and talk about all of those systems for hours and hours, because that to me is the core of what Hr. Has an opportunity to do, and that's where my background is. But I'm gonna resist the urge to stay on that tangent and take a look at some of the questions.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: One is someone asked, can you elaborate on building a moral case? I know you spoke earlier, Janet, about the difference between a business case and a moral case, but they're wondering, I guess, a bit more on the moral case, and what that it really is, and and how it may add some value if it does.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: it does provide value. I mean, it's when we talk about the moral case we talk about sort of that general sense of.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: we do diversity, equity, inclusion, because it's the right thing to do. And the reality is this.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: even though I'm a firm believer that the business case is what gets funded and what gets done because it affects the bottom line.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: The reality is you have to have both because you are never going to achieve the business case. If you have not done some work on the moral case which is about making the culture someplace, everybody wants to be a part of those things are inexorably linked. And so when I say, focus on the business case, I always say you have to really, really tell this story
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: the way it needs to be told to whoever needs to hear it. My background's communications. So I have learned very much that I need to translate the Miss message so that you can hear me cause you don't necessarily hear the way I hear it. So if I'm talking to a CEO who's bored
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: new stakeholders, and I'm gonna be looking at him or her and saying.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: You know, where's the money I was? Just what are you spending money on? If the only thing I have to justify
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: the money aspirational diversity conclusions that we don't have, because it's the right thing to do.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: I'm gonna need to have something else. And that's where we've lost it. We haven't, we? You do this work, have not learned to make that argument. But the moral case is the one that within the organization employees need to hear. They need to understand that you were doing this because you wanna build an inclusive culture. That is a moral case. We do it because it is the right thing to do, because people should be able to come to work and bring.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: I'm not gonna say they're authentic sales, cause. I brought my authentic self to work. Fired. But we. We bring the authenticity that we need to to get the job done in the space we bring the authenticity that is leverageable within the space we bring that person that we are able to use that diversity. If you don't build a culture where that can be leveraged.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: where people can speak up, people can contribute. That's the moral case. That is where you build it from. And even then I'm asking you to build it in an object in objective way. I'm saying, let's move away from that. It's the right thing to do, because, first of all.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: not. If I think this is right thing to do. I don't want to depend on people that slavery was the right thing to do for a while. I really don't want to depend on people thinking what the right thing to do is so the right thing to do is the thing that makes the culture able to deliver on what the company is there to do. And if you can identify those things.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: then you can make the moral cases. We need to make it so that people can do what needs to happen here. That's how you make the moral case. I think
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: I love that. And and you were spot on. And the truth is, and I think just to double down on what you said around communication. There are some people who are going to be driven by the business case. There are some people who are going to be driven by the moral case, so it's important to capture both, because ultimately you have to communicate the need in a way that that individual and each individual can hear it. So, knowing different people are gonna be driven by different things we have to keep that in mind.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: It's all about making it relevant to everybody, because one of the reasons this push back is happening is that there are whole groups of people who feel like they've been left out of this discussion. Primarily white men, they that's pushing back. That's who they probably been left out. We have not been able
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: to make the case to them, and if we settle with, it's the right thing to do, even if
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: cause things. This, we we still have not gotten past the idea of the 0 sum mentality that if you get something I'm gonna lose, we right? We're not gonna win that fight. So then, if we're not gonna win that fight, if we keep trying to fight that fight, maybe a different way, you know, like, how's that working out for us, not? Well, let's try something different. Maybe what we need to do is sit back and say, Okay, so what is it that you do care about? And can I frame this discussion in a way that you care
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: about it? And I think we can. But that's gonna require those of us to do this work, and those of us who care about it to think about it differently and to your point you've got to make it matter, because at the end of the day
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: I don't care why people do it. I just want them to do it, and if I have to, and if I have to help you understand why it's important to you, I'll do that. I will. I will give you cause. Thing is, I do believe that diversity equity inclusion is important on so many different levels. We definitely talk about it the right way.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Absolutely, I'm gonna ask one question. And I'm gonna preface this with. This is a question that we could probably talk about for an hour, and we've only got like 2 min left to do it. Throw it out, and we're gonna try to keep our answers brief as possible.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: But someone asked, how much of this is driven by fear from those who may
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: who may possess or process, how they assess the so coworker as a threat. For example, I know that if you succeed, or if you were heard or seen that I lose because I can't compete. I can't do what you do. I can't develop the relationships like you do. I'm not as dynamic as you etc. So basically, what they're asking is
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: how much of this is is driven and supported by people who are afraid that if everyone is seeing it makes them look worse. And that really goes back to that. What you just said around that 0 sum game. So what are your thoughts? I have. I have definite thoughts on this. But what are your thoughts on? How much of this is rooted in fear? And because of that? How do we then overcome it
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: all of its rooted in fear. Because here's the thing, everybody. I hate the term diverse people. That's that's a redundancy. All of us have some aspect of diversity, whether it's seen or unseen. So the idea is we wanna be able we we should. We shouldn't be afraid that somebody else's sense of diversity is being leveraged in a different way. But we are because some of us think that we don't have it. We don't understand that if we focus on diversity and inclusion, we helping everybody.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: It is that 0 sum mentality. I think the only way you can do that is as an organization, as a team as individuals to really embrace the value of diversity, because if you can value somebody else's diversity, if you can value your own, then you don't. You're not as afraid when somebody is using what they're good at
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: to get the goal. We have something it didn't allow we call the super ordinate goal, which is the thing that is bigger than any one of us as an individual that we're all working for. If organizations can identify what that super ordinate goal is, and then figure out how everybody contributes to it. You can get. You can get over some of that stuff of feeling like somebody else's. Get taking something away from you, cause you're all working for the same thing.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Exactly. And and just to to quickly add to that, I think the 2 things we can do are constantly remind everyone that we are all working towards the same goal, which means we have to establish that goal upfront. It's something we talk about it, and align all the time.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: having everybody know what the goal is. So we know we all are working towards it can help with that. And the other thing is acknowledging as Janet. Just say it. We all have something about us that can make us feel excluded at different times.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Lean into that Re recognize that everybody has some aspect of diversity, and everybody has something in common with everyone else. Look for those commonalities. Let that sort of be the basis for collaboration whenever possible.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Again, I know we could go on and on talking about this for hours, but we are close to time.
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Janet M. Stovall, CDE: I am going to transition and throw this to Evan so he can close this out for today. But, Janet, I have absolutely love this time with you. Thank you so much for having me here with me. No, thank you.
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Evynn McFalls: thanks so much, Christie and Janet. What a wonderful session! And what a wonderful way to celebrate as we cap off Black History Month. We have a few more days left, however, so celebration isn't quite over, and we really appreciate all that you share today wonderful conversation folks as we head out today, I just want to share a couple of important announcements, one of which is that we will be back here same time. Same place. Next week. We will be sharing an update
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Evynn McFalls: updated point of view on diversity, equity, and inclusion. So, looking forward to sharing that with you. I also have posted a number of super helpful links in the chat. Some things for you to know. The first link will direct you to a place where you can share your feedback on today's session as well as any request that you have. We do have a poll up as well where you can do that.
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Evynn McFalls: We have launched our new leadership development program lead the neuroscience of effective management. And our second cohort is now taking registrations that cohort begins on April eighteenth. You can visit the site, neuro leadership.com forward, slash, lead to learn more and get registered. Today
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Evynn McFalls: we have so many exciting events coming up in the near future. Including a number of leadership, development, minisummits, executive dinners, and so much more you can find all of our events listed under our events, you'll see the link. But in case you are unable to see that link right now, it is neurolitership.com forward, slash hour hyphen events.
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Evynn McFalls: If you love today's episode, you're going to love our podcast listen to it anywhere, you stream podcasts or you can visit our site conveniently@neuralitorship.com forward, slash. Podcast and finally.
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Evynn McFalls: as we say, goodbye, I just want to invite you to join our community and dig a little bit deeper with us. We have our neuro leadership insider program. We will be having an insider session early next week. So please go ahead and submit your applications. We will be reviewing those, and upon approval, we'll be inviting you to our next neural leadership insider event. With all of that, said I. Thank you all for choosing you to spend this time with us today, and I look forward to seeing you again soon. Thanks. Take care.