In Dr. David Rock's groundbreaking book, Your Brain at Work, readers were introduced to a new way to understand the relationship between the brain and performance at work. That knowledge has helped millions of professionals use neuroscience to successfully navigate common workplace challenges. But these insights apply even outside the cubicle. In this week's episode of Your Brain at Work Live!, Dr. David Rock and Dr. Emma Sarro invite us to use a brain-based approach to better living, no matter where we spend our time.
WEBVTT
1
00:00:07.110 --> 00:00:31.349
Shelby Wilburn: Welcome back to another week of your brain at work. Live! I'm your host, Shelby Wilburn, for our regulars. We're happy to have you back. And for our newcomers, we're excited to have you here with us for the first time today in this episode, we're unpacking the benefits of understanding the brain, and how to use neuroscience to navigate life, even when things seem chaotic. Now, as I quickly share some housekeeping notes, drop in the chat or comments where you're joining in from today.
2
00:00:33.040 --> 00:00:58.020
Shelby Wilburn: we are recording today's session. So if you're interested in a replay, be on the lookout for an email later today, that email is going to include a survey for feedback as well as a number of resources that are aligned with today's conversation. We suggest putting your phone on. Do not disturb quitting out of your email and messaging apps. So you can really get the most out of today's show. It's also gonna help with your audio and video quality. And lastly, we love interaction. So feel free to share your thoughts
3
00:00:58.020 --> 00:01:03.459
Shelby Wilburn: and comments with us in the chat. Now, to get this show underway. I'm going to introduce our speakers.
4
00:01:04.510 --> 00:01:18.569
Shelby Wilburn: Our guest for today is a director of research at the Neuro Leadership Institute, where she focuses on translating cognitive and social neuroscience into actionable solutions for organizations as well as helps to communicate relevant research in an accessible manner for the public.
5
00:01:18.730 --> 00:01:36.050
Shelby Wilburn: Previously she was a professor at Dominican College and New York University, and a researcher at the Nathan Klein Institute. She holds a bachelor's degree from Brown University and a Phd. In neuroscience from New York University. A warm welcome to the Director of Research at Nli. Dr. Mesaro. Thanks for being here today. Emma.
6
00:01:36.110 --> 00:01:39.050
Shelby Wilburn: Hi, Shelby, thanks for having me. Yeah.
7
00:01:39.240 --> 00:02:03.950
Shelby Wilburn: and joining her, is no stranger, an Aussie turn New Yorker, who coined the term neural leadership when he co-founded and Li over 2 decades ago with a professional doctorate for successful books under his name, and a multitude of bylines ranging from the Harvard Business Review to the New York Times, and many more a warm welcome to the co-founder and CEO of the Neural Leadership Institute. Dr. David Rock. David, it's great to have you here, and I am passing it over to you.
8
00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:09.940
Dr. Emma Sarro: Thanks, Shelby. Happy Friday. I'm going to hand it over to Emma. Actually, yeah. Nice to be here with you again, David.
9
00:02:10.370 --> 00:02:35.330
Dr. Emma Sarro: So we kind of have a special episode today where we're gonna get to. You know, probe David's mind about all things important about the brain. It's an incredible organ. It's so complex. Researchers still have so much to learn about it. Kind of like an open frontier for research. None of us have enough time to really study the brain. So what we're gonna talk about today is really what what's what's needed to help us in our everyday life?
10
00:02:35.360 --> 00:02:58.400
Dr. Emma Sarro: You know. How much do we really need to know? And why is it important to have an interest and know a little bit about it? And I know, David, you've been bringing this the understanding of the brain to us for a while. Helping us use it in our everyday life, so I'd love to just kick it off with, you know. How did you start with your interest in the brain? Where did it come from? What were those early insights?
11
00:02:58.930 --> 00:03:01.260
Yeah, thanks, Emma. Good to be here with you.
12
00:03:01.400 --> 00:03:03.979
Dr. David Rock: yeah. It was very, very early.
13
00:03:04.030 --> 00:03:19.240
Dr. David Rock: II always had a fascination with how things worked and wanted to take things apart. If you looked at around my bedroom as a kid, you'd see, like, you know, broken down radios and televisions and stereos and speakers, and like I was taking everything apart, quite annoyed my parents.
14
00:03:19.240 --> 00:03:35.129
Dr. David Rock: Sometimes they were quite good things. And I couldn't always put them back together. But II really wanted to understand how things work, and at some point very early, like 1415 years old, I noticed I had a brain, and that it was spitting out all these crazy things into my head. And I'm like, that's weird. What's that thing?
15
00:03:35.210 --> 00:03:39.640
Dr. David Rock: And I started actually started really early doing
16
00:03:39.830 --> 00:03:51.979
Dr. David Rock: mindfulness practice I kind of went on a journey of like trying to understand. Is it, you know, mid teenage. Understand what this was read really widely around consciousness and also
17
00:03:52.270 --> 00:04:03.730
Dr. David Rock: around physics. I was very passionate about science from early age. Kind of quantum mechanics of the brain, and also all sorts of things. And II just I found myself fascinated by observing in real time.
18
00:04:03.910 --> 00:04:19.070
Dr. David Rock: what was happening, and just having some kind of loose frames, but no neuroscience time. But it just. It's been quite a few years from like very young age practicing mindfulness and just kind of observing my own and out at experience
19
00:04:19.269 --> 00:04:46.019
Dr. David Rock: moment to moment. And it's sort of just became really, it was just kind of really obvious. I wanted to understand what that was at some point is like, I really wanna understand that? And I started reading really widely and studying privately. So I started more formally later. But early on it was just reading incredible amount of books and papers and kind of trying to understand it. And it wasn't until 2,003. It's 20 years ago now, 21 years ago, that I kind of really started study it formally
20
00:04:46.420 --> 00:04:49.170
Dr. David Rock: where I was
21
00:04:49.180 --> 00:05:07.399
Dr. David Rock: was actually teaching a coaching program. And we've had little snippets here and there of kind of brain stuff. But we started to really include a lot more about the like. The neuroscience of of coaching itself in this at the time Nyu program I'd built. And what what I found was that
22
00:05:07.630 --> 00:05:10.970
Dr. David Rock: explaining things from a physiological perspective.
23
00:05:11.210 --> 00:05:17.019
Dr. David Rock: Just just like, created much deeper insights for people and
24
00:05:17.020 --> 00:05:42.220
Dr. David Rock: just made people much more aware of themselves and aware of others like moment to moment like it just made people more like intelligent and kind of wise, as you might say, or reflective, thoughtful, smarter, all sorts of things. But it was. It was sort of building this language just to understand what was going on. Kind of moment to moment it was it was helping so independent of sort of, you know, selling tickets to anything or marketing benefits like it was just
25
00:05:42.280 --> 00:06:01.739
Dr. David Rock: putting the brain into leadership and coaching programs literally made them much more effective programs. And at that point. I was kind of hooked and started a whole, you know journey, and that was that was kind of started about 2,003. The Institute was launched in 2,008. We published the first journal in 2,008 and then we've been, you know, passionately studying, you know, all this ever since.
26
00:06:02.090 --> 00:06:23.769
Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, it's amazing. I mean, I'm coming from slightly a different place. I've been doing research for a while, totally different area and answering really, Tai, tiny questions about the way the neurons work and things like that. And I never really thought about how you can bring that kind of those questions to the workplace. And I think it's amazing how you're able to kind of synthesize all of this
27
00:06:23.770 --> 00:06:45.710
Dr. David Rock: years and years of research. And put it in place in everyday life. So like all of these little things that just understanding it can make you a better person individually, and then work with others better as well. I get very annoyed by noisy information. Like like I see a noisy patent. I need to clean it up. And
28
00:06:45.710 --> 00:07:10.080
Dr. David Rock: II just at the time. This is like, you know, early 2 thousands. I was reading all these papers and seeing these, these incredibly consistent themes coming up between like dozens of different labs all around the world. But but no one like finding the pattern and saying, Well, what does this mean for you know, for for you know, getting up in the morning, having a good day. What does this mean for you know, with conflict with a friend.
29
00:07:10.280 --> 00:07:18.820
Dr. David Rock: What what does this mean? For, you know, trying to have a creative idea like like, practically. And there was just no, none of the labs would kind of
30
00:07:18.960 --> 00:07:32.939
Dr. David Rock: with is always like against their religion, to anchor down on any specific thing you should do. And while you, it is true, you don't want to be too prescriptive. There's a middle ground of sort of synthesizing the research and then saying, Look, we, we pretty confidently know
31
00:07:33.070 --> 00:07:39.699
Dr. David Rock: that you know you should do things that make your brain quiet. If you want to have more insights, for example, like it's like we can see that
32
00:07:39.750 --> 00:08:03.399
Dr. David Rock: that action from like 6 different angles from completely different speeds of research, that all of them point to this idea, that insights are quiet signals coming into the right. So yes, there is something you can do, and then that translates into all sorts of you know, habits that you can take. But there's a lot we don't know but it but there's also a lot now we do know. But it's it's in synthesizing the studies more than like one specific study.
33
00:08:03.400 --> 00:08:28.389
Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, absolutely. I was just thinking that I mean, if you were to look. And this is what a lot of our articles have done is looking over, you know, hundreds and hundreds of studies. You start to see the pattern when you look at enough of them, and there are variability in the brain is incredibly complex, and there are things that we don't know. But in general we are able to make like these strong statements about how how you can act and impact others and get the best ideas and solve problems and make
34
00:08:28.390 --> 00:08:40.310
Dr. Emma Sarro: better decisions. All of these things are coming from all of this great work. But applying it to the workplace, you can actually change behavior across the organization in a way that actually becomes more productive and becomes more collaborative.
35
00:08:40.440 --> 00:08:54.670
Dr. Emma Sarro: So, yeah, so I guess I mean one of the things that are coming up for you that are, you know, we we titled this the unexpected, you know, like the the things that are like not really like top of mind, like, what are those things that are coming for you that like really make your day to day better?
36
00:08:55.580 --> 00:08:59.370
Dr. David Rock: I mean me me personally. Ii think
37
00:08:59.740 --> 00:09:27.960
Dr. David Rock: II think I've gotten more. You know they talk about, you know. In in certain people, you know. Can the Inuit people having 200 words for snow. I don't know if that's a metaphor or or or falsehood. But you you do. You know it's ski season right now. And there, definitely, if you're here or snowboarder, they're really there really are, you know, dozens of different kinds of snow, you know, if you've if you've ever heard the expression dust on crust. If if you're if you're a snow person, you'll know that's just not a fun day to go out.
38
00:09:27.960 --> 00:09:37.820
Dr. David Rock: It's really different to, you know. Like the day before, which is different to the day before. And in a similar way. There's all this granularity
39
00:09:37.820 --> 00:09:48.539
Dr. David Rock: as you get closer to the brain, and what it involves is language that helps you create a schema for that kind of describes what's going on like? Is it a good thing? Is it a bad thing?
40
00:09:48.540 --> 00:10:08.339
Dr. David Rock: How do you interact with this thing? You know, if it's dust on cross, you know, you just like interact a certain way. And in in a similar way, as you have more more language for mental experience, it's like, you know, like where to focus your attention. And that's logically the sort of power that we have is, where do we focus our attention? Right? So if you have language, for
41
00:10:08.840 --> 00:10:15.239
Dr. David Rock: for example, the fact that your brain goes sort of into needs to go into kind of idle mode
42
00:10:15.410 --> 00:10:34.860
Dr. David Rock: to have a breakthrough idea right? If you, if you know that you know that feeling is as well. You'll be like, oh, I'm stuck. Let me just take a walk as opposed to. I'm stuck. I'm gonna have a coffee right? And so you'll make different choices. But I think it's all about having this broader set of language and and sort of
43
00:10:34.860 --> 00:10:42.440
Dr. David Rock: having more creative ideas as one. And I've seen a lot of time writing. So I'm often like trying to get that creative idea. But it's it's much, much. It's much, much broader than that.
44
00:10:42.440 --> 00:11:07.419
Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah. And I think with the idea of the language, is this idea of, if you have a language that many of us can understand. So we often create these like shared languages. Right? So scarf is one of our models that we have a shared language, and when we understand that we kind of bypass the confusion of trying to understand the other person and understand what they're meaning is just to go to the strategy and how to act. And what's the behavior that you can do to reach the other person.
45
00:11:07.420 --> 00:11:16.160
instead of trying to understand where they're coming from first and and using all those cognitive resources. So that's one of the ways that, we try to, I guess, relate
46
00:11:16.340 --> 00:11:17.760
Dr. Emma Sarro: right to others.
47
00:11:19.700 --> 00:11:21.729
Dr. Emma Sarro: oh, you're, muted sorry. David.
48
00:11:22.990 --> 00:11:28.649
Dr. Emma Sarro: oh, no, you're muted.
49
00:11:29.500 --> 00:11:47.939
Dr. David Rock: Oh, that's how did that happen you you don't, you don't need to be a scientist or a neuroscientist, to like get lots and lots of value. That is, this sort of this is sort of sweet spot of kind of how much you would want to know, like, it's not the sort of pop science stuff, most of which is incorrect or incomplete, which is wrong.
50
00:11:47.940 --> 00:12:12.929
Dr. David Rock: But it's not the like, you know, we we use 10% about brain all this kind of stuff. But it's also not like deep, complex papers that that you know, reduce a particular. You know aspect of how, you know dopamine is up, taken in a sign up. So the it. There's this sort of middle ground of just understanding the like. What's going on moment to moment, and I think it's it's that sort of it is a little bit like having a language. II see people who study
51
00:12:12.930 --> 00:12:18.860
Dr. David Rock: work, you know different words because they've they've got this vocabulary of what's happening.
52
00:12:18.930 --> 00:12:37.839
Dr. David Rock: And I think that I think it's sort of that that middle ground of sort of just, you know, just the right amount. Yeah, well, so let's bring it to a level where maybe people can relate to different different scenarios where you've you've used these different strategies. So you just landed. You have a meeting, your jet lag. How do you approach this? Using the brain?
53
00:12:37.990 --> 00:13:02.679
Dr. David Rock: You know I've I haven't used that word in some years. I intentionally don't use that word and this is this is this is this is an interesting one. So so I'm originally Australian and I used to travel to the States and and Europe everywhere for conferences and to kind of start the business it for a long time, like 10 years and and back then, you know, like it was always economy. It was always like a cheap fare, and and and I, you know, would always be busy, so I'm like.
54
00:13:02.680 --> 00:13:19.130
Dr. David Rock: the first time I flew was disastrous. I was like completely exhausted for like 5, 6 days, and like there's got to be a way to, you know. Work out the pattern. It took me a few times. but I worked out several things that make flying much, much easier. And I understand that the neuroscience of this and
55
00:13:19.160 --> 00:13:29.519
Dr. David Rock: one of them is is is basically don't do the math. So this is interesting thing. If you land somewhere and it's 9 Am. You know you'll you'll like feel
56
00:13:30.110 --> 00:13:34.690
Dr. David Rock: a certain way. But if you land somewhere it's 9 A. M. But you know that it's 4 A. M. Somewhere else.
57
00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:49.359
Dr. David Rock: Right? You. You're expecting to feel weird. And what happens is your brain notices all the data about feeling weird that you wouldn't notice if you were just like focusing on being 9 am. So if you, if you literally don't know the time where you've come from.
58
00:13:49.380 --> 00:13:59.529
Dr. David Rock: Your brain kind of go. Oh, that's why I feel like this, or I should feel like this. And it turns out expectations are really powerful, for experience, like the right dose of expectations, is more powerful than morphine.
59
00:13:59.570 --> 00:14:02.160
Dr. David Rock: So the
60
00:14:02.660 --> 00:14:22.560
Dr. David Rock: so 1 one of the things is just le literally don't work out what time it is elsewhere, which is a little easier when you're you know, traveling Sydney, New York. A little harder if you're doing, you know, a shorter distance. But that's one thing. The second thing is, don't get hungry, because what I found is that low glucose makes the tiredness much worse, and that's the same with all kinds of tiredness. Right? And
61
00:14:22.560 --> 00:14:40.140
Dr. David Rock: the third one is is, get the right hours of sleep. Not a lot of hours of sleep, so you much, much better to stay up till 2 Am. The first night you get somewhere local time and sleep till 7. Just get 5 h sleep, but wake up with the light at 7 right? You're a little sort of a little off kill to that day.
62
00:14:40.140 --> 00:14:49.359
Dr. David Rock: but actually not much at all. And then the next day you're fine, right? But if you go to sleep when you're exhausted, which is like literally 7 Pm. Local time you'll sleep till 3 am.
63
00:14:49.400 --> 00:15:05.610
Dr. David Rock: But now you're rec right. And so so it's the right hours, not a lot of hours. Is a big thing. Then there's an advanced technique which is using a very small amount of alcohol, very small like if you sips early in the evenings because jet lag is kind of a little bit like being tipsy, and you just can kind of
64
00:15:05.670 --> 00:15:24.650
Dr. David Rock: there you go use that word it. The the travel is like little a little little like being tipsy, so you can sort of reframe it as just being a tiny bit tipsy like his drug of choice. And it's it's sort of like turning it around a bit to be kind of humorous as opposed to being like. Oh.
65
00:15:24.710 --> 00:15:38.790
Dr. David Rock: I feel weird, you know. It's like, oh, I feel a little like every light. Really pretty. Everything's kinda nice, anyway. So those are. Those are the main things. Don't do the math don't get hungry. And get the right hours, not the not a lot of hours. What I find is you reset.
66
00:15:38.870 --> 00:15:50.320
Dr. David Rock: So I told this to my kids both kids. We traveled spring and fall, for, like the first 10 years of their life all around the world, and they still have the skill that they can mostly arrive somewhere any time zone anywhere and have
67
00:15:50.370 --> 00:16:01.540
Dr. David Rock: maybe 10% of the issues. Most people have not 0. But II find you can get down to about 10% of the issues. And a lot of it is about just it's really a lot about your attention. And where you're putting your attention.
68
00:16:01.600 --> 00:16:25.070
Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, that's that's amazing. And you know Laura asked a question about mindset. I think you're speaking about mindset and and the mindset that you that you take on is critical, and it changes how you expect the environment and how you approach the day. So she's working with graduate students. And how like, how is mindset critical to being prepared for a tough conversation? Let's say which an interview would be.
69
00:16:25.220 --> 00:16:30.930
Dr. David Rock: yeah. look, the the the way the brain works is that is that
70
00:16:31.020 --> 00:16:36.309
Dr. David Rock: it's organized around intentions, right? The the simplest way to think about this is
71
00:16:36.440 --> 00:16:41.209
Dr. David Rock: like you. You, you decide you're going to
72
00:16:41.640 --> 00:16:59.340
Dr. David Rock: You know, you decide you're gonna eat lunch soon. And suddenly. You see, you know everything related to food everywhere. Right? You you're like. So your brain said, it's an intention. You wanna get healthier. You see, running stores everywhere, and you see your friends who are working out, and all this stuff. So
73
00:16:59.430 --> 00:17:02.679
Dr. David Rock: a lot of time. Our intentions are quite unconscious, like.
74
00:17:02.750 --> 00:17:14.849
Dr. David Rock: you know, I'm just trying not to fail, not. I'm trying not to look stupid, right? It's our intention. So we're trying not to look stupid in a in a interview with something. I mean, your your brain's gonna be focused on St. On, on the concept of stupid.
75
00:17:14.960 --> 00:17:21.469
Dr. David Rock: In that case, right? The concept of making mistakes. You'd be like thinking about mistakes right as opposed to
76
00:17:21.700 --> 00:17:38.500
Dr. David Rock: let's let's focus on you know, building a relationship with this person. Or let's focus on asking really intelligent questions or so. So a lot of the time we have these sort of negative contexts that the brain is anchored on that are quite often unconscious. And then that's what we get. That's what we see?
77
00:17:38.510 --> 00:17:59.480
Dr. David Rock: So so it's about. It's not consciously. Our mindset is like consciously putting an intention into the brain. And then all your unconscious resources start aligning to that. That's kind of the easiest way to think about. And you know a growth mindset is like an overall intention that your your goal is learning. Your goal is like growth and your your
78
00:18:00.070 --> 00:18:28.430
Dr. David Rock: you, you know, as opposed to your goal is trying to look good. Right? And so you're more likely to like, ask questions and experiment with other ideas. You're more likely to sort of be open to feedback like is your overall intention is learning right, whereas whereas you know, trying to looks look intelligent or smart. So so the you know, whatever context you set, your your brain will kind of align around that literally just kind of align. And then all the data starts to funnel through that through that context.
79
00:18:28.430 --> 00:18:57.340
Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, that makes me think of all the the mantras that so II run a lot, and and they often tell you to have like a a mantra in place when you start to feel tired, and that's the mindset kicking in telling yourself the same thing over and over again. Kind of enforces this like, you know, it's okay, you're going to finish as opposed to. I'm hurting. And I just want to stop. And this is taking over. I think that kind of speaks to that same idea is, you know, set yourself up for that for what you want. Your goal set the expectations.
80
00:18:57.970 --> 00:19:21.989
Dr. David Rock: Yeah, yeah, I know it's it's a lot about where we focus attention. You know where you focus attention, like activates processes in the brain. So we don't have a lot of control over our brain at all. But we have a lot of influence. A lot of it's about the little choices you make. Do I focus on this or this and and I work with Jeffrey Schwartz, who did a lot of the original neuroplasticity research. I worked with him for 3 or 4 years.
81
00:19:22.010 --> 00:19:38.369
Dr. David Rock: Back in the early 2 thousands, and he helped me sort of one of my main mentors. He wrote the mind and the brain and bunch of other amazing amazing books, and he's a you know. He's a deep, deep scientist on attention and consciousness. And all this. And one of things, he explained to me, is really, really helpful is we? We can't.
82
00:19:38.470 --> 00:19:49.320
Dr. David Rock: We kind of control what the impulses and and kind of urges and and and thoughts and desires everything that come out of the brain into conscious awareness.
83
00:19:49.500 --> 00:20:13.439
Dr. David Rock: you you you can't actually control that. But you you. So you don't have. In a sense, you don't have a lot of free will as to what will come into your brain right like I wanna I wanna eat Mcdonald's today. Sorry to put that out to you all, but like you can't stop yourself thinking that right. But you have this moment of, and it's a very short moment. About a third of a second. You have a very short moment between kind of noticing the impulse and acting on the impulse. And
84
00:20:13.440 --> 00:20:25.809
Dr. David Rock: if you're paying more attention to those moments you'll you? You notice that moment of choice? Oh, I can. I can do that, or I can do this. And so the more the more language you have for
85
00:20:26.040 --> 00:20:30.389
all these different experiences. Right? The more you'll notice.
86
00:20:30.580 --> 00:20:40.529
Dr. David Rock: Just like if you're cooking. You know what's you know the house salt is different to spice, to to chile. You'll you'll like notice it right? So. Similarly, the more language you have, the more
87
00:20:40.630 --> 00:20:50.859
Dr. David Rock: moment to moment, you can kind of see what's going on your brain and go alright. I I'll do this, not this. He call it free, won't we? Don't have a lot of free will. But we've got this kind of free won't of
88
00:20:51.210 --> 00:21:04.959
Dr. David Rock: of like you know. Do do I go that way, or don't die? And I think that's the influence that we have not control. We have a look, but we have some influence there. And then the the action we take is basically, where do we put our attention?
89
00:21:05.120 --> 00:21:15.960
Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, absolutely. So, what about when you know where we try to be creative all the time? And sometimes we're more than others. So what happens when you hit that roadblock and you're just stuck.
90
00:21:16.510 --> 00:21:17.499
Dr. Emma Sarro: What do you do?
91
00:21:17.690 --> 00:21:41.450
Dr. David Rock: Yeah. So I mean, II, this is one of the areas I learned about a lot is always really fascinated by the creative process and the the sort of insight moment. I'm probably one of those insight junkies that's always looking for, you know, new ideas and connections. And you know I love like learning and and kind of meeting new people, and, you know, have a lot of really diverse kinds of friends and and a social life. And you know, so just I just like kind of mixing up
92
00:21:41.450 --> 00:21:53.030
Dr. David Rock: things a lot and and kind of new connections, right? And I've probably got a dopamine receptor that needs more dopamine than some than some. There's a there's a receptor issue. I probably have.
93
00:21:53.030 --> 00:22:19.319
Dr. David Rock: Anyway, the the the thing that I noticed is like I noticed really early how incredibly useful these insights are. Like when you have a breakthrough idea. So I mean, this is my first area of research back in like 2,000, literally about 2,003 to 2,006 was studying this and kind of building concepts at Nyu when I was on faculty there. And you know what just to. There's a lot of research we can talk about. But just for me personally, like
94
00:22:19.340 --> 00:22:23.990
Dr. David Rock: when I notice that I'm failing to solve a problem 2 or 3 times, I just literally give up
95
00:22:24.060 --> 00:22:36.699
Dr. David Rock: and come back to it. So so constantly like trying something. Okay, nothing. There. Let's come back to it, you know. Take a walk, do something else. Sleep on it like I, my unconscious brain keeps working on things. So I do. A lot of kind of
96
00:22:36.900 --> 00:22:41.340
Dr. David Rock: it might look like jumping around. It's not really jumping around. I'll just try something. See if there's an insight, and if not.
97
00:22:41.500 --> 00:23:08.520
Dr. David Rock: let us, you know, let it sit. And I also like, when I really hit a wall. I just know to stop pushing and take a walk. Or, you know, just go and go to nature to walk 5 min, 10 min. Just just just let you kind of let your brain do the work for you. So I guess I do a lot less pushing, a lot more kind of pausing and seeing if the insights will, you know, will come. Yeah. And I think that has to be a bit more intentional. Now, for a lot of us, because a lot of us are remote. It's so easy just to
98
00:23:08.540 --> 00:23:25.859
Dr. Emma Sarro: be at your desk constantly. We don't have the commute time always. We don't have the walk between offices always to have those insight moments, but I feel the same way. I think a walk or walking away. You're not using all those resources just to try to solve the problem, it will solve itself at some point. You'll have an idea that will pop.
99
00:23:26.020 --> 00:23:31.139
Dr. David Rock: Yeah. The the other thing I do. And I remember seeing the research on this one of our early summits.
100
00:23:31.300 --> 00:23:53.819
Dr. David Rock: there's there's amazing research on this, that a nap really improves your ability to have these distant connections and to have more creative. But it's also kind of resets. All your cognitive resources like you've just had a good sleep. So so I learned to nap really, really, really early. But like, literally, if I'm at, I can mean a 10 min taxi ride, and I can. I can have a 5 min sleep in that time and wake up refreshed.
101
00:23:53.820 --> 00:24:13.549
Dr. David Rock: So I do a lot of practice. But I've been known to nap on boardroom floors and big famous companies is like, Ask for the room for 30 min and lay down under the table. And like I've done a lot. And it for for me. The nap is a really really powerful reset. I'll tend to meditate first for about like 10 min.
102
00:24:13.550 --> 00:24:38.059
Dr. David Rock: and then drifted to sleep by the combination. Really good. So really, a really good reset, and the time to do it is the time we just really feel like you need an app like it could be 20'clock, could be 30'clock could be 40'clock. Sometimes I'll do late at 60'clock, but no more than 20 min. Send alarm, always an alarm no more than 20 min. Get into the practice. It's one of the best things for insight and overall cognitive performance. II would do that, you know, 4 to 6 days a week easily.
103
00:24:38.070 --> 00:24:52.389
Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, no, that's great. So that brings me to my next thought is besides, you know, hitting a wall, what are the things that kind of energize you and get you like, get ready to focus like we talk about focus time like, what gets you ready to focus?
104
00:24:52.560 --> 00:25:04.080
Dr. David Rock: You know I had I've talked about this before, but maybe folks haven't heard it. But but I like I'm I'm always trying to hack my brain to like, get the most from it right. And and
105
00:25:04.130 --> 00:25:27.070
Dr. David Rock: I definitely, I definitely got a lot of value from understanding the dopamine adrenaline access. So basically to focus really, well, you need pretty large amounts of dopamine, which is about interest in something like something interesting. That's dopamine. You're interested in a person. You've got this like desire, right? You're interested in idea. Seems novel. It's a similar mechanism. So so dopamine. You need quite a bit of dopamine. But you also need quite a bit of
106
00:25:27.070 --> 00:25:44.980
Dr. David Rock: norepinephrine or nor adrenaline. It's brain adrenaline. It's basically alertness right? But you you need a decent amount of alertness and a pretty good amount of dopamine. But if you have too much alertness, that's like too much coffee right? If you have too much dopamine. That's like a conference with 1,000 people, and you're overwhelmed with new ideas. Right?
107
00:25:44.990 --> 00:26:05.120
Dr. David Rock: so you see, there's the sweet spot. So so spend a lot of time just trying to like work out how to get into that sweet spot and for my own brain and yours gonna be different for my own brain. How long could I focus before that really started to diminish? And it's like an hour or 2 depending on the task. But after an hour to a really intense focus, I need to like re-energize. Now, usually, what you need to re-energize is dopamine.
108
00:26:05.250 --> 00:26:19.120
Dr. David Rock: Like the the adrenaline's pretty easy to re energize. That's just like, imagine it's something going wrong. Imagine missing a deadline. Imagine messing up the project you're doing right. You get the adrenaline, the the like. That's novelty, it's interest.
109
00:26:19.540 --> 00:26:24.000
Dr. David Rock: So how do you keep it? So? I you know one of the things is, I was for a long, long time. Pre covid
110
00:26:24.290 --> 00:26:39.990
Dr. David Rock: traveling a ton. I'm traveling a bit again now, and you know a long fly, if you've got space to work is a fantastic time to be productive. But what I'd find is I'd be productive for now and then I'd watch a movie. And then, after the movie, I couldn't do anything, and I realized the movies were all raising my cortisol
111
00:26:40.130 --> 00:26:48.149
Dr. David Rock: which is a sort of cheap shot, you know the anxiety of a movie. And it was making me exhausted. And so what I realized I needed more novelty.
112
00:26:48.190 --> 00:27:11.119
Dr. David Rock: So I just started watching like snippets of stand up comedy, right? So I'd work for an hour or 2 on a long flight for me along flights like 12 HA 80 now is I love the like like the 80. Now, flight is amazing for me. But I I'll I'll I'll do like an hour or 2 of real focus, and then watch. Stand up comedy for 15 min, and then an hour or 2, and then it's time for me, all right, and I'll again watch some stand up during a mail.
113
00:27:11.120 --> 00:27:26.450
Dr. David Rock: and then hour or 2, and then and and so II thought I could work for like 1215 h, really productively, by kind of surfing that dopamine nor epinephrine things that I think that that's another piece of granular language of like, oh, okay, everything seems really uninteresting. I'm exhausted. Alright.
114
00:27:26.450 --> 00:27:44.209
Dr. David Rock: Talk to an interesting friend. Watch an interesting video, do something novel and unexpected, or do something that you just don't think you, you know, ever have time to do. But you're interested in and so so that that sort of fine. So it's so understand the dopamine kind of cortisol relationship, and your brain
115
00:27:44.220 --> 00:27:51.770
Dr. David Rock: and kind of managing your environment. That's that's what I find I can do to to really manage. Focus the other thing. There's some obvious things. But
116
00:27:51.890 --> 00:28:04.639
Dr. David Rock: if you do have to turn off if you like, if you have to keep dealing with distractions. The game is up. So I'm I'm on airplane mode a lot. The research is you're really losing IQ, if you can even see your phone
117
00:28:04.680 --> 00:28:13.999
Dr. David Rock: it's actually affecting your IQ, if you can even see your phone, even if it's off to have no effect on your cognitive resources, your phone needs to be off or airplane mode and out of sight.
118
00:28:14.290 --> 00:28:43.800
Dr. David Rock: So so so really leaving it, you know, out of the way. And it's just because it's activating all the things that could be coming in right now, which is a lot right? It's activating the trades. You're in the middle of the social things. You're planning the travel things you apply, like all of it's there. You look at it, it animates the entire network for organizing everything. And suddenly your brains noisy. So the the other thing I'll just say finally, on this is, you know, for me, and this is different for everyone. But most people.
119
00:28:43.940 --> 00:29:00.680
Dr. David Rock: most people have to that best focus in the mornings. Not very completely. First up, like maybe 20 or 15 min in half an hour in maybe. Have a shower first, maybe have a light breakfast, but don't look at your phone or computer like or download anything like, don't look at the Internet, right?
120
00:29:00.680 --> 00:29:23.049
Dr. David Rock: So you you get you, you get by far the best focus. If you use the mornings, and you haven't done all that noisy stuff yet. So so you save you save your brain what I call a level 3 work, which is like writing stuff. And you know, building things level 2 is like scheduling and level. One is like deleting emails. And you know, just general emailing, right? So it's sort of like we tend to. We tend to sort of start work.
121
00:29:23.050 --> 00:29:39.399
Dr. David Rock: do all the level one stuff, then do all the level 2 stuff, and then, you know, whatever's left we do for the deeper work. And I actually think you gotta do the deeper work. Well, I know you gotta do the deeper work first. So when I'm when I know I need to be productive, and I know I need to output I'll definitely get up, have a snack.
122
00:29:39.490 --> 00:29:44.939
Dr. David Rock: and and start while my brain is quietest and that tends to work best.
123
00:29:45.100 --> 00:30:05.300
Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I was actually just speaking with Shelby before this started about our morning routine of working out before we start, and that and I noticed a clear difference if I don't get a workout, and if I don't go for a run, and I just start working on irritable, I can't focus. Those first few hours are critical. So I think it's so important to find that routine that works
124
00:30:05.300 --> 00:30:35.140
Dr. Emma Sarro: for you. Because, like you said, we're all different. What? What we can focus on the novelty, the difference between the dopamine and and the general, all, all of that is based on our own individual differences. So I think it is really important. Another thing that's coming up for me is this, and we often talk about this. The connection between the brain and mindfulness practice and a lot of us practice it in different ways, different kinds of levels, meditation versus just mindfulness practice. We've talked about them. Can you speak a little bit to that?
125
00:30:35.360 --> 00:30:56.489
Dr. David Rock: Yeah, this is. This is a study I've been sort of trying to dream up for literally 20 years since I first started noticing how powerful it is to start to learn about your brain, and I've I've got this strong hypothesis, and I've written a couple of blogs on this, but got this strong hypothesis, that that kind of being on a journey and slowly learning more and more about your brain. Has very similar benefits as
126
00:30:56.510 --> 00:30:58.879
as practicing mindfulness.
127
00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:24.270
Dr. David Rock: And let let me just explain why. And I, you know I wanted to do like a control study, a placebo control study on this somehow. But you know, when you practice mindfulness, you're basically sitting quietly. And you're so there's lots of different types. But kind of the the breadth focus type. You're you're just watching internal experiences, and then maybe gently labeling them like, Oh, that's just my brain doing this, and then you come back to paying attention in the present
128
00:31:24.270 --> 00:31:32.370
Dr. David Rock: openly, right, and then you you drift off and you go. Oh, I've drifted off and you come back right. You drift off. Come back. What you're doing is you're practicing focusing attention.
129
00:31:32.370 --> 00:31:40.779
Dr. David Rock: And you're practicing meta cognition of where is your attention? And you're practicing switching your attention right? So focusing, observing, switching
130
00:31:40.850 --> 00:32:07.720
Dr. David Rock: turns out some really important networks in the brain that do these things. But those 3 mechanisms are the stuff of life like that's that's kind of everything. How well do I focus? How well do I notice what I'm focusing on? And how do well do I choose the right path? And so, you see, benefits from from that kind of regular practice around, you know, overall wellbeing and stress responses and baseline cortisol level and all sorts of things right? And there's like hundreds and hundreds of studies on the benefits that
131
00:32:07.720 --> 00:32:14.910
Dr. David Rock: well, we think that the more you understand about your brain, you're actually getting the similar kind of thing. You're focusing your attention. You're noticing
132
00:32:14.910 --> 00:32:33.769
Dr. David Rock: like what's going on in your brain. You're labeling it. You're observing it. And you're making a decision. You're switching right? So so getting in and learning about your brain particularly to do it over time. We think it's gonna have really similar benefits to to mindfulness practices. You. You're gonna have all this content that you you'll start watching
133
00:32:33.770 --> 00:32:59.569
Dr. David Rock: and and labeling and shifting right? So you see what I mean. It's very, very similar from a sort of mechanism perspective. And maybe my team can find a piece of wrote on that long, long, long time ago. But there's there's there's just we. We think that learning about your brain has very similar benefits to mindfulness, training, or mindfulness practice over time, especially as you develop language. And you spend. You just naturally spend quite a few minutes every day
134
00:32:59.570 --> 00:33:28.240
Dr. Emma Sarro: going. Oh, what's my brain doing? Oh, it's doing that. Okay, no, I wanted to to do this. So it's really woven into everyday life in that way. Yeah. And you probably get better over time. The more you practice the better you're able to do find that you're better able to focus on someone that you're talking to connect with the person that you're talking to. Because, as you said, we're always we're distracted by everything, especially now we've got screens everywhere. Things are popping up our phones. Next to us, you know, thinking about what we're gonna do after work, and you're trying to focus on someone.
135
00:33:28.240 --> 00:33:46.729
Dr. David Rock: And do you find that your attention can just like really Hone in on that person better? I mean, II guess I learned, like how to very quickly switch off the noise and get present. You know we call it a mindful moment. You know you, you could be in the midst of total chaos. And you you've got this like this skill
136
00:33:46.730 --> 00:34:01.119
Dr. David Rock: of kind of taking a breath, really bringing your attention to the present and and what it does, it turns the the threat networks down. There's this inverse relationship between threat networks and focusing on data in the present right, which you can think of as a kind of mindfulness.
137
00:34:01.120 --> 00:34:23.519
Dr. David Rock: So if you focus all your attention in the present on, like the feeling of your breath, or a smell or a taste, it actually turns down the wh what's called the narrative network all the stories and all the threat response. So so definitely, you know, have this ability in the heat of the moment to kinda get really calm and just there, and you know I'll I'll give a talk. I'll be on stage with big audience or something, and I'll just take a moment before I start to just really
138
00:34:23.560 --> 00:34:42.499
Dr. David Rock: be in the moment. And it it turns down a lot of noise and puts me in that kind of more flow zone. I might still have some some anxiety, but I've but it's very manageable. It's not the overwhelming threat of level 2 or level 3 threat. It's kind of very manageable. In there. So that's yeah. That. That's what I find.
139
00:34:42.500 --> 00:35:07.770
Dr. David Rock: and that is a pro comes from a combination sort of understanding the theory. And then, you know, pract practicing it quite a few times as well. Right? So yeah, that speaks to. You know why it's important to understand the brain. We understand why this works so well, and understanding that it will get better. And then it actually does allow you to focus on the outside world and not get kind of like overwhelmed by your narrative network and the threat that's associated with it. And we talk all the time about how threat is.
140
00:35:07.770 --> 00:35:28.230
Dr. Emma Sarro: You know we're incredibly sensitive to it. We default to it very easily. Which kind of brings me to my next thought is, you know, as a manager you're dealing with probably more like unexpected changes and different kinds of people and having to interact. So as a manager, what are the things that like the brain can help you with?
141
00:35:28.490 --> 00:35:49.120
Dr. David Rock: Yeah. So like, when I when I wrote your brain at work, which is, it's been out for a while now, like we just said we I did last year before last to do like a an updated addition. But when I when I write your your brain at work, I was sort of pitching. This is something for everyone. And what what we found like pretty early on is the people who really really needed help?
142
00:35:49.450 --> 00:35:53.230
With understanding their own brain and other people's brains was people managers.
143
00:35:53.300 --> 00:36:00.970
Dr. David Rock: Now, I define that as anyone from front line all the way to a CEO. But you, you basically have other folks. You're trying to influence right?
144
00:36:01.080 --> 00:36:22.290
Dr. David Rock: You're trying to manage. You're trying to get things done through people. And what I found is that those people had like, like just so many cognitive challenges that they kinda needed that, you know, needed to help more. So you know, if you go from being an individual contributor to manager. You get this this like sort of perfect storm of a big jump in how much you have to think about.
145
00:36:22.820 --> 00:36:38.769
Dr. David Rock: and therefore how much you uncertainty, but also how much uncertainty you have like before you were sort of you knew what you needed to do. Now you're working through 10 people is so much uncertainty working through 10 people. So you got this huge jump in. How much you've got to think about.
146
00:36:38.770 --> 00:37:01.789
Dr. David Rock: That's just massively overwhelming. Now you got this huge jump in uncertainty, also massively overwhelming. And you've been seen by other people, which is very, very overwhelming to varying degrees for folks. Some people find it slightly energizing, but a lot, some people totally overwhelming. But you being, you know, lot more information, a lot more uncertainty, and a lot more people watching you. And even if you're not a new manager, you're experiencing that
147
00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:09.639
Dr. David Rock: all the time, but in particular, for someone becoming a manager for the first time, or a more senior manager with a bump in that, what would happen is
148
00:37:09.750 --> 00:37:18.290
Dr. David Rock: you get this, your your resource, your general decision making resources are strained because of just volume increase. Right? So you need help to like
149
00:37:18.360 --> 00:37:20.989
Dr. David Rock: increase your capacity somehow.
150
00:37:21.040 --> 00:37:25.640
But secondly, your self-regulation resources are strained. You're dealing with high levels of stress, right?
151
00:37:25.920 --> 00:37:41.290
Dr. David Rock: The Peter principle, which is thought of, as you know, folks being promoted to the level of their incompetence, is probably folks being promoted to the level of their self regulation ability. Because if you don't have the ability to stay cool under pressure, you will just make terrible decisions and
152
00:37:41.370 --> 00:38:09.560
Dr. David Rock: you know, and fail ultimately. So so you've got this big jump in and amount of information. So you're gonna have, gonna get more out of your capacity. This big jump in stress response. You need much stronger self regulation. And you also have, like, now, 10 or 100 or 1,000 or 100,000 people to actually think about. So you need this big jump in your ability to understand others and understand, like what motivates them and why they're doing what they're doing. So they sort of 3 areas that are really necessary. And
153
00:38:09.560 --> 00:38:17.790
Dr. David Rock: what what you see is leaders or managers will levels kind of kind of fail for one of 2 main reasons, either. They
154
00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:34.329
Dr. David Rock: they just sort of get stuck, being tactical. And they thought they can't think strategically. So they just always kind of in the doing. And a big part of that is that is actually the self regulation challenges they just they. They just can't deal with any more uncertainty. They make sort of craving certainty.
155
00:38:34.430 --> 00:38:35.500
Dr. David Rock: And
156
00:38:35.520 --> 00:38:41.779
Dr. David Rock: the other thing is that they just don't mentalize well, about others. They don't imagine other people well,
157
00:38:42.270 --> 00:38:53.059
Dr. David Rock: And they don't think about other people. Well, and again, that's a that's kind of a failure of the of the just, the the social cognition. So so self regulation, social cognition kind of really challenged
158
00:38:53.100 --> 00:38:55.989
Dr. David Rock: as a manager or as a new level of manager
159
00:38:56.010 --> 00:39:05.230
Dr. David Rock: or even just when the world changes. And so what we found is the host. People really could benefit the most from understanding their own brain and other people's brains.
160
00:39:05.320 --> 00:39:29.669
Dr. David Rock: Yeah, so what are the first? You know, if you are you know, being promoted new level, you have a whole new set of team members under you. You feel all this pressure. What would you tell them to do first like the first 3 steps? Is it like taking care of yourself? Or is it thinking about others? First? Yeah, I mean we had this big. We had this debate a big debate internally about the right place to start kind of teaching
161
00:39:29.890 --> 00:39:46.229
Dr. David Rock: manager. And, by the way, when I say manages, this could be an entrepreneur with a team of 2 or 3 people, it could be a corporate person. It could be a creative person who's just, you know, managing some assistance. It could be a CEO. It's just. It's just like anyone who's sort of trying to get things done through others. You know. II do think that you gotta start with
162
00:39:46.290 --> 00:39:59.960
Dr. David Rock: managing your own brain and and kind of coming back to getting more out of your capacity, having more breakthrough insights. You know, and and staying cool under pressure, like those things, are kind of the foundations
163
00:40:00.100 --> 00:40:06.950
Dr. David Rock: of good decisions for you, but also your team is really affected very directly.
164
00:40:07.220 --> 00:40:30.789
Dr. David Rock: very, very directly. Your team is affected by your mental state. So if you're optimistic and positive, and just a little chirpy and cheery like that rubs off on them right, and brings them from anxious to neutral. If you're if you're a little anxious and uptight that rubs off on them, and their slight anxiety is now worse. So so this is whole thing about your IQ and your team's. IQ
165
00:40:30.790 --> 00:40:43.990
Dr. David Rock: is very directly driven or not driven, but influenced by the mental state you have. So you really quickly become. You start to see that as a people manager, you. You kind of have this responsibility of taking care of your mental state.
166
00:40:44.040 --> 00:41:05.950
Dr. David Rock: When I met him, Microsoft early on, like, you know, he said, I don't get to have a bad day like when I have a bad day. All of Microsoft has a bad day. So this is responsibility to learn about your brain to kind of manage yourself really? Well. And I think that the more you can do that through the lens of of what's going on in your brain, sort of the easier it is to animate
167
00:41:06.110 --> 00:41:26.750
Dr. David Rock: the language in your brain itself. It's very meta. But the more you can kind of think about these issues like understanding others through the lens of what's happening in their brain. What's happening in your brain? It's just easy as less cognitive load for the overwhelms brain to actually activate. You know those things? Yeah, just increasing that self awareness of what you do and and how you impact others, too.
168
00:41:27.020 --> 00:41:48.519
Dr. David Rock: Yeah. So what about when you, when you just have a really bad day, you wake up. It's horrible day. What do you do? You show up and push through or walk away, because there's a really inappropriate main popped main that popped up on tick, tock. And if you've seen it, it's like, you know, someone trying to ride a motorbike up a hill, and the bike just tips over and just goes crashing down on ravine or something. There's a there's a there's a voice.
169
00:41:48.520 --> 00:42:12.550
Dr. David Rock: and East Asian voices, you know, when you have a bad day, you know. Yeah, I'm not. Gonna I'm not gonna swear, but effort. Just go back home, you know, like, and this is, there is thing. Not that I'm I'm suspicious like that, but there's sometimes things just go awfully wrong, and the the you'll have what what I'll call a level 3 threat response, which is essentially the immediate hijack or the the sort of overwhelm you know. Flip your bid
170
00:42:12.550 --> 00:42:21.630
Dr. David Rock: kind of can't think straight anymore. Response. And when you have that, you really really do need to like, take a power walk for half an hour to an hour or more.
171
00:42:21.790 --> 00:42:24.359
Dr. David Rock: you know. Have a sleep, have a meal.
172
00:42:24.380 --> 00:42:49.590
Dr. David Rock: you know, like give give up for an hour or 2, like some. You know, we have a really really tough experience, the cortisol from that streams through your body, and you actually have to get it out before you can focus again. So there, there is an element of knowing when to like. Just give up. Let your brain rest. And you know, have that map or do that power walk, and then you'll you'll have energy again. And this is this is one of the lovely things about the you know the hybrid world is. People can manage
173
00:42:49.620 --> 00:43:00.050
Dr. David Rock: people, you know, more people can manage their mental state more flexibly than than if they're in the office all the time, and maybe on the days of the office. Also, there's more flexibility. But I think
174
00:43:00.050 --> 00:43:24.449
Dr. Emma Sarro: there's more flexibility from organizations to sort of manage your own work patterns and styles. So you can continue to to focus. Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense and just developing strategies that start to work turning off your camera and walking away. If if you feel like you're going to impact others. Because in in the awareness that when you you do have an emotional reaction that it will impact your team and your team's work at the same time.
175
00:43:24.520 --> 00:43:30.060
Dr. Emma Sarro: So what about individual contributors? So they're not managers, I mean, is it different for them?
176
00:43:30.520 --> 00:43:31.700
Dr. David Rock: No, I think
177
00:43:31.730 --> 00:43:56.520
Dr. David Rock: it's there's there's benefits understanding your brain for a a everyone like everyone can benefit from from understanding a bit more, I think just managers are like can benefit even even more, because it's it's kind of the the job is tougher. But for an individual contributor with some tough clients, and constantly, you know, like changing deadlines and trying to understand others. There's a ton of value in in understanding what's happening, and and the limits
178
00:43:56.640 --> 00:44:25.470
Dr. David Rock: you know, of of cognition. So so I think there's there's a tremendous number of benefits, you know. We've we've just launched for the first time in 26 years we've just launched kind of access to our whole suite of research and models and tools to the public. In our first, ever kind of B to see program with all our research in it. And it's it's a 6 month experience called lead. We've been talking about it for a couple of months now, but it's a it's a 6 month experience of essentially walking you through as a people manager.
179
00:44:25.470 --> 00:44:46.530
Dr. David Rock: the the, the critical habits, the essential habits, not everything, but the essential habits. For like focusing better and managing emotions, and on and, you know, staying positive and resilient like. So a lot of stuff about yourself, lot of stuff about how you just really efficiently work with others and then really, efficiently work as a team. So it's the so foundations of like brain based management,
180
00:44:46.530 --> 00:45:11.399
Dr. David Rock: and leadership. And we, we do think there's an individual contributor version of this. We'll work on in the next few months, but at the moment we we haven't done that. But we we think that there is a there is a sort of maybe a 3 month program to give you all the foundations of kinda understanding your brain as an individual contributor. But lead lead is up there and and out. Now, I think we just literally this week launching our first cohort, and we just opened as second cohort in in March
181
00:45:11.400 --> 00:45:18.219
Dr. David Rock: for people to check out. So I think my teams put put a link in there. Yeah. And I think we're going to be live in March, too. Right?
182
00:45:18.220 --> 00:45:43.389
Dr. David Rock: Yeah, we just this is this is being this fun project, because we've it's it's stretched our our own growth mindset a lot this project. Got, you know, going massively digital and and and we just had this insight, even though we've built the 6 month, digital experience might be fun to have a kick off event in a different city to kinda gather the cohort, meet each other and then work together. So I'm actually kicking off sometime in March my team can put the date in Silicon Valley.
183
00:45:43.390 --> 00:45:56.140
Dr. David Rock: II kick off of a lead cohort. That will then work virtually for 6 months, but we're doing it in person in person. Kick off of that. Which is, it's kind of, you know, an experiment. We're doing a ton of experiments. And
184
00:45:56.350 --> 00:46:08.870
Dr. David Rock: II just think, and this is what we should try to weave into lead. Lead. Lead is literally 15 min a week. It's not very much that 15 min a week of like digesting one specific skill about your brain.
185
00:46:08.870 --> 00:46:28.590
Dr. David Rock: So even like like being a focus better, this one specific skill set around like managing kind of all the logical stuff, and how you kind of organize and synthesize things more effectively. So so you'll you know you'll learn that you practice that for a week. Then you'll learn about like insights. Practice that for a week. So it's literally this kind of one set of habits a week.
186
00:46:28.840 --> 00:46:33.170
Dr. David Rock: Over this journey. And it's it's kind of cool. We're super curious to see.
187
00:46:33.230 --> 00:46:37.490
Dr. David Rock: How how's it gonna go? But we yeah, literally just kicking off this for the first time. Now.
188
00:46:37.490 --> 00:47:03.509
Dr. Emma Sarro: yeah, yeah, I mean, I think it's great, because it provides a very tangible set of strategies, just like we've been talking about today. 50 like, how do you, let's say, increase your capacity? A few very easy ways to do that as you're working through a problem that anyone can do and and build on. So I think that's one of the best parts about this is that we're talking about very easy, tangible skills that you can leverage your brain to actually work better. And that's exactly
189
00:47:03.510 --> 00:47:28.029
Dr. David Rock: one of the simplest things. One of the most obvious things people forget is just like, use your brain to process, not store like, use your working memory to process connections between information, hierarchy of information, the relationship between information not to store the information like you've got. You know someone's giving you an idea with 4 or 5 parts. Don't try to like. Remember the idea. Put the idea on your on your flip, child, on your wall, on your on a piece of paper, on a napkin.
190
00:47:28.030 --> 00:47:44.980
Dr. David Rock: Anything? Just kind of get it out of your head so you can actually use your limited capacity because we have this limited capacity to actually process the information, how does it connect to existing ideas? How does it connect internally. What's the order? What's the importance? Like? Everything. So so that's that's some say people make that hiring.
191
00:47:44.980 --> 00:47:58.140
Dr. David Rock: They're working memory a lot unnecessarily. And and I think it's one of the messages of of learning about the brain is is that actually respecting a capacity limits? Is. There's a great book on Self Regulation
192
00:47:58.230 --> 00:48:05.490
Dr. David Rock: called Willpower by Roy Bowmeister, and he talks about David Blaine. There's a famous English
193
00:48:05.670 --> 00:48:18.329
Dr. David Rock: performer who would do these incredible feats of self regulation. It seemed like. And and what he said was he he? If he needed self regulation, the game was up. He set up systems so he didn't need to rely on willpower
194
00:48:18.480 --> 00:48:24.080
Dr. David Rock: that if that willpower is like the last resort, willpower is very limited.
195
00:48:24.230 --> 00:48:26.580
Dr. David Rock: And so so that's you know. That's an example there.
196
00:48:26.630 --> 00:48:38.219
Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, that's awesome. So if we were, you know, we're almost coming up at close, what would you say? Or like the the things that inspire you the most about the brain, understanding the brain and what you used it for.
197
00:48:39.370 --> 00:48:49.230
Dr. David Rock: I mean, I think you know personally, the most fascinating stuff is everything about insight and the the creative process. And I continue to be fascinated in all the research coming out on that
198
00:48:49.330 --> 00:49:10.830
Dr. David Rock: And II think that's really really interesting. II think that we're starting to see more and more information about the the negative effects of you know, social media and you know, multimedia use. And I think that we're gonna get to a time of kind of a lot more kind of controls over over some of that. There's some. There's some really
199
00:49:10.850 --> 00:49:18.159
Dr. David Rock: destroyed young brains out there. So I think that's that's important research for me, the
200
00:49:18.210 --> 00:49:25.609
for me. I think the thing is to constantly be learning about it, going back to the mindfulest question for me the thing is like.
201
00:49:26.330 --> 00:49:41.019
Dr. David Rock: How do you keep learning about it? So you continuing to the kind of pay intention, attention to to do things happening in your brain, or or maybe being reminded, if you're not learning new stuff, you kind of bringing your attention back to things. And so I think,
202
00:49:41.280 --> 00:49:58.670
Dr. David Rock: you know what's what what's in for me. I'm always interested in kind of what's a new area. And if I'm not learning about the brain, I'm learning generally, which means I'm learning about myself. And I'm kind of applying this. So II constantly like to be doing quite difficult things, and challenging myself. And I think, as you do, that your your
203
00:49:58.680 --> 00:50:05.239
Dr. David Rock: literally building, that you know the muscles that you need most. Yeah, well, it's a complete embodiment of growth mindset there.
204
00:50:05.770 --> 00:50:06.779
Dr. Emma Sarro: And it works.
205
00:50:07.080 --> 00:50:11.300
Dr. David Rock: Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. The. I think that the
206
00:50:11.770 --> 00:50:27.819
Dr. David Rock: You know, there's a lot when we look at the word leadership, you know, on Amazon. I don't. You look it up today. I don't know what the number is. The last time I looked there was like one half 1 million books, you know, with the word leadership in the title you know, management is is just literally millions and millions of
207
00:50:27.830 --> 00:50:32.109
Dr. David Rock: a books. And you have to think about like, what does that mean?
208
00:50:32.410 --> 00:50:56.359
Dr. David Rock: What does that mean? That there's all these different books, and and not to get like, you know, get myself like destroying in the world. But same with religions. There are lots and lots and lots of religions. Right? And you know, in in both cases people are describing very similar phenomena and and trying to put solutions to very, very similar phenomena. So I was always interested in what are the phenomena
209
00:50:56.530 --> 00:51:09.289
Dr. David Rock: that all these different leadership books are trying to address right? And you know I give an example, this one just absolutely consistent thing. It's just people, are not you right? People have really different brands to you. And
210
00:51:09.390 --> 00:51:24.070
Dr. David Rock: the more you have to think about the harder. Just remember that, and you'll just do what you need. But as as a leader like really, really being able to imagine someone else as a completely different brain to you. Understand that brain a bit and and adapt rather than be automatic
211
00:51:24.090 --> 00:51:32.619
Dr. David Rock: even in the heat of the moment, like. That's a common thing to just every leadership, you know. Program. You know, being big, like lifting people up to big picture.
212
00:51:32.910 --> 00:51:41.330
Dr. David Rock: Such a, you know an out of the details. Such a common theme across all leadership books. So we that's kind of what you know kicked off this journey like
213
00:51:41.340 --> 00:52:00.440
Dr. David Rock: 20 something years ago. Getting passionate about the science is like, I wanna build better leaders. But I don't wanna write another leadership book. I wanna understand what's inside a million leadership books that kinda drives all of it. And I think that's yeah. That's been a fascinating journey. And I think the more you sort of get to that source code.
214
00:52:00.540 --> 00:52:08.120
Dr. David Rock: The more you've you've got this rich lexicon of of of language to adapt better moment to moment.
215
00:52:08.140 --> 00:52:36.089
Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I mean, I think you know, one reflection of why there are so many leadership books is everyone's trying to figure it out. The best way to do it. It's hard and and I think, you know, using the tool of the brain is one great way to like leveraging that to get the best out of people? Because it is complex. And so one question I have. And this is just a little bit as an aside is we think about the development of AI and how you know AI is
216
00:52:36.090 --> 00:52:43.020
Dr. Emma Sarro: trying to understand the brain and work the way the brain does. I mean any thoughts on that, and like where we're going to go with that.
217
00:52:44.020 --> 00:53:12.830
Dr. David Rock: It's so fascinating. It's so so fascinating. Think about this for a long time. The I mean the thing the thing to note about AI is II don't think like where we are now is all that interesting, but where we'll be in like a couple of years is going to be really, really profound. And and the breakthrough is actually in the interface between humans and and machines. That's where we're gonna see huge huge breakthroughs. And if you think about computers, all the huge breakthroughs and computers have been an interface breakthrough like
218
00:53:12.830 --> 00:53:39.030
Dr. David Rock: going from sort of everyone having to use basic language, to be able to use a mouse on a screen called Whizzy Week. That was like a giant giant leap in the number of people using computers and the number of uses for computers right like. Suddenly it was a 10 x breakthrough in both uses and number. And we we went from the computer screen to a touch screen similar. You went. It was a huge jump in the number of uses, right the phones. And now use for everything. So really, hardly anything. You don't use your phone for
219
00:53:39.030 --> 00:53:49.710
Dr. David Rock: and so, in a similar way, when we go from from touchscreen to to you know, conversations or moving in space, as we're starting to do with the apple.
220
00:53:49.790 --> 00:54:12.479
Dr. David Rock: You know, videos, the the goals like you go into this. It's it's a huge interface breakthrough. And II think we're gonna see as big changes as as sort of pre Internet to like now, like, but it's but in like within 5 years, as opposed to within 20 years. So it's gonna be really, really interesting. But but what you gotta remember is that the human brain is the bottleneck.
221
00:54:12.560 --> 00:54:18.350
Dr. David Rock: And so you're interfacing with the machine. You're interfacing with this very limited capacity called that working memory.
222
00:54:18.400 --> 00:54:22.160
Dr. David Rock: You know, which doesn't like new things. So so that the sort of
223
00:54:22.330 --> 00:54:29.449
Dr. David Rock: you know the the breaks on AI is largely human intelligence. So it's gonna be really interesting to see how that kind of all
224
00:54:29.720 --> 00:54:34.019
Dr. David Rock: all unfolds. But there's definitely some some skills.
225
00:54:34.100 --> 00:54:40.979
Dr. David Rock: there's definitely some skills for people to learn to kind of engage with AI. And, interestingly, one, you know short story of this, we we
226
00:54:41.390 --> 00:54:45.890
Dr. David Rock: we. We have this amazing interview with a professor who who built a black box recorder for
227
00:54:45.900 --> 00:55:07.970
Dr. David Rock: operating rooms. What he said was like gathering a million data points a day now is relatively easy, you know, for each site, finding the insights in them is a lot extra to understand human experience and behavioral science and neuroscience, to actually find some kind of insight in all the noise like, you can see a million data points about people moving around a room. But what does it mean?
228
00:55:07.970 --> 00:55:20.589
Dr. David Rock: So you actually need to understand the human brain to find the insights, and then the the even harder thing is getting people to change based on those insights. And then you really need to understand the brain. So it's II think, with AI, we we actually ironically need
229
00:55:20.770 --> 00:55:35.170
Dr. David Rock: more awareness of of our humanity and our human capacity to learn to change, to grow, to connect. We actually need more and more about that in order to leverage the best of AI as we kinda get into that interface breakthrough. So I think we're gonna see more and more
230
00:55:35.170 --> 00:56:04.309
Dr. Emma Sarro: people focus on the human side of intelligence in in in parallel. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And and it'll force us to be better at making decisions, you know, really figuring out the right way to make decisions, what data to use, how to ask the right questions of AI, too. Yeah, yeah, really interesting, hey? Just before we jump off, I know my team's got a poll, probably. But just before folks start jumping off, if you're interested in in lead, if you're from an organization and you're interested in kind of looking at lead, because lead lead is the first
231
00:56:04.450 --> 00:56:16.319
Dr. David Rock: like, completely scalable, really transformational leadership experience that we believe it's gonna be more effective than putting people in person. But we? We're doing it, you know, completely, digitally. If you're interested in lead, just for your company name and the word lead
232
00:56:16.320 --> 00:56:37.379
Dr. David Rock: in the chat, and someone will follow up with you. And I think we'll they'll put up a poll as well. We just put lead and your company name and some will follow up. And then there's a link my team can put into the the actual open enrollment version as well. So there's an in house program. There's an open enrollment but you can. You can answer the poll. That's that put up, or you could put something in the chat. And either way we'll
233
00:56:37.380 --> 00:56:47.010
Dr. David Rock: we'll we'll get back to you, but just you know, in in closing we'll let people get back to it in closing, I think. The theme here is
234
00:56:47.580 --> 00:56:48.610
Dr. David Rock: that
235
00:56:48.790 --> 00:57:09.200
Dr. David Rock: the more language you have for what your brain's doing moment to mind with the more the more adaptive you can be, the more of this free, won't that you can exhibit the more the more you can kind of see what's going on in real time. Feel like Neil and the matrix suddenly seeing all the the data right suddenly, oh, what's going on? And I think,
236
00:57:09.710 --> 00:57:17.639
Dr. David Rock: this th. This is even more important as a people manager to have this language. Even more important as a people manager. So
237
00:57:17.640 --> 00:57:41.200
Dr. David Rock: yeah, folks, thanks for for being here. Thanks for listening. Hopefully. This has been useful definitely, at the very least. When you travel long distance, try those, try those things. Don't do the math. Don't get hungry and get the right hours. Not a lot of hours. Super super helpful for me. And seems to work for my kids. So maybe it's maybe it's universal. But Emma, thanks for your great questions and and conversation. Today she'll be behind scenes for everything.
238
00:57:43.900 --> 00:58:08.809
Shelby Wilburn: Thanks so much, Evan. David. I definitely need to put some some of those things into practice. We appreciate you being here, and the poll has already been up. But, just as David said before, if you enjoyed this episode, you will really love lead. So registration is already open for our next cohort, and you can also join us in person for that Kickoff event in San Francisco on March twentieth. So our team already provided the links. But if you need more information, you can also visit our website.
239
00:58:09.030 --> 00:58:27.560
and also if you enjoyed today's podcast or today's episode, then you should definitely check out our podcast your brain at work, we have episodes from the past solo episodes and a lot there to share. So on behalf of our team behind the scenes, thank you for being here as always, and we will see you again next Friday.