Are you looking to foster a more effective and creative culture within your organization? Discover how neuroscience can revolutionize your approach to team building and problem-solving. In this exclusive webinar, our expert panelists will delve into the latest research on the brain's role in creativity and innovation. Learn how to: Stimulate your team's neural pathways to spark new ideas Create an environment that fosters creativity and collaboration Overcome common barriers to insight Measure and track the impact of effective learning through divergence Don't miss this opportunity to gain valuable insights and practical strategies for driving innovation in your organization.
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Shelby Wilburn: Welcome back to another week of your brain at work. Live! I'm your host, Shelby Wilburn, for regulars. We're happy to have you back, and for our newcomers. Welcome. We're excited to have you here with us today. For the 1st time
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Shelby Wilburn: in this episode we'll explore the latest research on the brain's role in creativity and innovation with a special guest. Now, as I quickly share, some housekeeping notes, drop in the comments or chat box where you're joining in from.
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Shelby Wilburn: We are recording today's session. So if you're interested in a replay, be on the lookout for an email later today, that email is going to include a survey for feedback as well as a number of resources that are aligned with today's conversation. We suggest putting your phone on. Do not disturb quitting out of your email and messaging apps. So you can get the most out of today's discussion. And it's also going to help with your audio and video quality.
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Shelby Wilburn: and lastly, we love interaction, so feel free to share your thoughts and comments in the chat with us.
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Shelby Wilburn: Now I'm going to introduce our speakers for today.
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Shelby Wilburn: Our guest for today is a cognitive neuroscientist who studies the neuroscience of creativity. She holds degree in cognitive science from John Hopkins and Columbia University and earned her Phd. In cognitive and brain sciences from Drexel University.
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Shelby Wilburn: her research focuses on brain mechanisms and psychological conditions that underlie creativity, learning and insight experiences. She's currently a postdoctoral research scientist at Feinstein Institute's Medical Research in New York, and is the Director of Communications and Organizing co-chair for the Society of Neuroscience and creativity.
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Shelby Wilburn: In addition to her academic work, she also began her career here at the Neuro Leadership Institute. So please join me in welcoming Dr. Christine Chesborough. Thanks for being here today, Christine.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: So happy to be here. Thank you.
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Shelby Wilburn: Yeah. And our moderator for today 1st coined the term neuro leadership. When he co-founded Nli over 2 decades ago with a professional doctorate, 4 successful books under his name, and a multitude of bylines ranging from the Harvard Business Review to the New York Times, and many more, a warm welcome to the co-founder and CEO of the Neuro Leadership Institute, Dr. David Rock. Thanks for being here today, David and I will pass it over to you.
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Dr. David Rock: Thanks so much, Shelby, and what a pleasure to get to be the interviewer instead of the interviewee for for a change! And I'm so delighted to be joined by someone who knows. You know a whole lot more than I do about the neuroscience of insight and creativity. What a what a pleasure.
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Dr. David Rock: Christine, we we, you know this is this is such a wonderful thing. I I remember
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Dr. David Rock: I'm going to tell the story in a moment, the very 1st time we met. It was some I know, nearly 10 years ago, probably
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Dr. David Rock: but.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: More than 10 years ago.
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Dr. David Rock: More than 10 years ago. How did you 1st come across, Nli? Let's kind of start there.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: Well, I was. I was a senior in college, and I was looking for what? What would be my 1st job. And I have actually this very, very specific memory of being in the library and
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: bruising job postings on Linkedin. And I came across Nli and and
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: like, you had a couple of job openings, and I tapped my friend next to me, and I said, Oh, my God! Look at this! This looks perfect. This looks incredible, and I I reached out, and
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: the rest is history.
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Dr. David Rock: Actually the story. The origin story is quite funny. I remember I was at a conference. We had a table and all this stuff, and I was speaking at a conference in downtown Manhattan, and you were applying for the Ea roles. I remember, like executive assistant, and must have been more than 10 years ago, because my Ea just celebrated 10 years, which means she has incredibly thick skin. And so it was more than 10 years ago, for sure. But I remember you were applying for the Ea role.
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Dr. David Rock: And I have this habit. People of you know, when I'm interviewing people being really really tough to see how they, you know, think under pressure. And I remember asking, you know, you came up to me, and you were like, Oh, I'm applying for this role I was like, I'm going to apologize in advance. I'm going to be a little mean and hard. I want to see how you think and how you process, and I asked you some like hard. I showed you a spreadsheet or something, and asked you a really hard question, and you went like 7 layers deeper than I'd even thought
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Dr. David Rock: I was like, oh, crap! This person is not going to be my Ea. You're just like way way smarter than anyone I'd met for a long time, and like we got to hire you. And I think we actually hired you and didn't even know what job we're gonna give you. We just said you should work here, and it took a little while to work it out, and I think they were 1st 5 or 6 years, and we were very small. I think we were like 10 people or something in North America.
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Dr. David Rock: and I know you worked in sales for a while, and then in consulting and then in research, and you know all sorts of roles. And then we're very sad. One day when you said I'm actually going to go off and study now and do my Phd, but now you finished. And now we're collaborating again on research and all sorts of stuff. So it's been a wonderful journey from that moment to now. You've got an amazing role in really, in the whole science of insight and creativity now involved in the Institute for that and doing, you know, really
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Dr. David Rock: fantastic research. So congrats on your career. It's been delightful to collaborate for a while, so tell me where just kind of that was the origin story where you know. Tell me about your day job. Now you briefly described it, but I think listeners would be fascinated. Describe your day job now in help paint a picture for us.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: Yeah, yeah. And it has been a very fun journey and quite a journey. So now in my current job, I am a cognitive neuroscientist and I work. Although my research isn't clinical, I'm interested in just
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: you know, I'm interested in all humans and and sort of normal, healthy functioning as well as you know, things like brain disease. But I work in a hospital now because there's a particular group of people who come in for epilepsy monitoring. Actually, they have really bad epilepsy. And
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: they are this very special group of neuroscience subjects because they come in and actually have electrodes implanted into their brains.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: And this is for clinical reasons. The research that we do with them is completely voluntary. They usually actually enjoy it because they're stuck in the hospital for a while, but usually you can't just implant electrodes into someone's brain who's healthy. Usually you have to study the brain from the outside, using things like fmri or go through the skull. And
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: these folks are coming in. They have in the hospital because their seizures need to be monitored. And while they're waiting they're incredible research subjects because we're able to record brain signals literally directly from their brains. So the data that we get is really incredible. And it's a, it's a wild experience to get to work with these patients.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: And the lab that I'm in focuses on a lot of different questions in neuroscience. But what I'm working on is actually attention. So
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: how can we tell when someone is sort of mind wandering off task? We have them do different things, watch movies, engage in sort of boring things, engage in interesting things, and then we just try to tell from their eye movements and from their Eeg signals what their brain is doing. Are they paying attention now, or are they mind wandering? Did their brain go elsewhere?
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: And mind wandering is a very healthy thing. We all do it? But we're trying to tell, you know, just from the brain up. When does someone stop paying attention? When do they start? Mind wandering? And what does it look like?
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: In the brain when someone is mind wandering.
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Dr. David Rock: You're doing really the like. The foundational research on kind of the mechanics of mind, wandering like the timing the networks involved. The experience that's really fascinating. I mean, mind, wandering is sort of. If you had to describe the conditions most likely to increase insight in 2 words, you would use mind wandering. There's a lot more you can say
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Dr. David Rock: but I know you know Jonathan School has been talking about that for years. You worked with him, and you know, many people would summarize the conditions that increase insight as mind wandering. So you really like.
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Dr. David Rock: you're you're really like analyzing the territory of kind of the state that insight occurs in. That's fascinating. What? What's on? What are some of the findings so far is probably too early to say a lot. But what are you? What are you seeing so far.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: Yeah, yeah. So we're really looking for, you know, we want to understand what mind watering looks like in the brain. But the Holy Grail is to be able to detect what happens when we make that switch, when we go from having from paying attention externally to then sort of going within ourselves and and our minds going off. And what is happening in our brains isn't what's going on in the external world.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: So we're looking for this sort of neural signature or sort of fingerprint of what that switch looks like. So the switch from external to internal attention and vice versa. And our brains do this all the time, and it's a healthy thing. It can be an unhealthy thing. So there's lots of implications for what we can do with that information
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: right now. What it looks like is, you know, if you're paying attention, you know, to what's going on around you. All the parts of the brain that are processing sensory information like vision and hearing are all very active, because they're taking in all that information. You're processing it. As soon as you start mind wandering. Those regions kind of go dark, and a network called the default mode network starts becoming very active. So
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: there's probably more to it than that. But that's what sort of the
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: overall big picture looks like, and we're digging deeper into it.
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Dr. David Rock: It's it's fascinating. I mean the I wrote a piece called The Neuroscience of Mindfulness
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Dr. David Rock: years and years ago. That was really the sort of the center chapter of my last book, Your Brain at Work.
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Dr. David Rock: And it described a study that I just got obsessed by the Fab study that you, I'm sure you know, inside out, a big, big team of people did this work to posit that. There were these 2 basic conditions. When you're paying attention. Essentially it's it's kind of
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Dr. David Rock: it's it's you're paying attention to real time stimuli
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Dr. David Rock: in the moment. Mostly that's external. But it can be internal. And so that's like, you know, sight, sound, taste, smell, you know all the senses, and when that network is up the other network is down, a bit of a seesaw, and that other network is, you know, we they call it the narrative network, so we call it the Direct experience versus narrative network. And the narrative network is mind wandering. The narrative network is
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Dr. David Rock: basically memories and fears. And and you know, thoughts and concepts. So there's it's more of a prefunnel network for sort of concepts and goals and strategies. And you know, anxiety and all that stuff. So it's very limbic. And so those 2 are to see sort. So it sounds like you're actually looking at like the the you know, those 2 networks. That's why I hear it. You're looking at sort of what happens when those 2 networks shift. Is, that is that somewhat correct?
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: Yeah, exactly. And you can call it the narrative network. There's other names for it. A lot of neuroscientists call it the default mode network. And it's really sort of what is your brain doing when you're not focused on what's going around on around you? And if you're thinking
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: about, if you're internal and your your mind is going elsewhere. You're usually thinking about yourself and others, or sort of engaging in associated thought, and and that is a very productive state, or it can be a very productive state for creativity.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: It can also be involved in you know, clinical disorder like too much mind. Wandering is not necessarily a good thing, but the right amount of mind wandering is can be really really helpful, and it can make you so much more productive than always trying to be in a very focused state of attention.
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Dr. David Rock: Right? Yeah, we talk about that in relation. Sorry we talk about that in relation to the healthy mind platter that we are very anchored on focus time, which is like goal focus, right? Or we have, you know, physical time, which is really healthy for the brain. Social time is really healthy, for the brain. Novelty is healthy for the brain, but healthy for the brain also is downtime where you're not goal focused at all. And that's a mind wandering. That's when mind wandering can happen
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Dr. David Rock: when you're not focused on goal. So if you shut out all your downtime, you're going to have less mind wandering. So it's interesting. I think a bunch of folks on the line are probably thinking to themselves, can we make sure you don't sell this data to Elon Musk, so he can't like program this stuff he's building to know when we're not paying attention. Just let's make sure we don't do that. But with that aside.
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Dr. David Rock: let me do a sort of 2 min summary through the research that we've done on insight. And you were involved in some of this. But I just think, for folks who haven't heard, I think it'd be really interesting. And we actually ran one of these sessions just in the last month or 2 specifically on the 3 bodies of research we did on insight. So maybe my team can put that in. The chat. Folks can download it later. But we published 3 papers on insight. 1, st one was in 2,008
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Dr. David Rock: which tells you how old I am. That that paper was really inspired by Mark Beeman's work, and and some others who were looking at essentially the the neural conditions for insight to occur. And that paper was
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Dr. David Rock: specifically about like, how do you kind of have more insights like, what? What? What are the necessary conditions for insight? And so we looked at sort of understanding the neural conditions
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Dr. David Rock: and the the cliff. Note. 1st of all, the sort of punchline is that insights involve quiet signals deep in the brain, and anything that helps you be able to notice. Quiet signals increases the likelihood of insights coming through.
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Dr. David Rock: which is a different theory. It's like insights are always there, and you don't notice them because your brain's noisy. Make your brain quieter. Insights can come through. So it's a really different hypothesis. And then we dug into what those conditions would be, and we developed a hypothesis around 4 conditions that continues to this day to be really helpful.
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Dr. David Rock: But all of them correlate to quiet, being able to notice quiet signals and have them come through. And it's essentially like quiet. So not a lot of activation of the brain. Not a lot of emails, right? Not a lot of talking internally focused. So you're actually not processing data slightly positive because slightly negative is the option. And that's noisier. And then not actively problem solving the way you have so far, so so letting your brain kind of take different parts. So so, anyway, that was that 1st paper.
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Dr. David Rock: and we published a big piece in Hbr. Called How To Have More Insights. We published in a bunch of places about the Aha moment, and a lot of that went into further research. Anyway. That was the 1st paper the second paper you were involved in, which was essentially a paper on kind of why insight is so important.
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Dr. David Rock: and why we call it? Why insight matters? And it turns out that, like when you learn things with insight, you remember it much, much longer. You generalize the insight to many domains, so when you have an insight like Oh, I should prioritize myself, you prioritize yourself in many domains
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Dr. David Rock: in. For as an example, right? So insights, you know, get generalized. They're memorable. They change behavior. And they motivate. And we actually did one study of of people showing a really strong connection between strength of insight and likelihood of action.
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Dr. David Rock: So you know, it's central to learning to read. It's central to creativity. It's central to innovation. It's central to leadership, development, coaching, learning, sort of everything. So that was that second paper.
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Dr. David Rock: And then the 3rd paper was something that I'd been thinking about for a decade before we published, which was, Can we create a measure for the strength of the insight? And that's the Eureka scale?
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Dr. David Rock: So we wrote a paper. We finally got that paper out defining the different steps of the Eureka scale the measures, how we measure it, what it is, and it's a super powerful framework to have a 5 point scale measuring the strength of the insight. And I'd been thinking about that way back, you know, from when I 1st started talking to Mark Beaman like, why is there no
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Dr. David Rock: measure for how strong an insight is? If it's so important, why is there no measure? So there is one now. So anyway, that's that's the research that we did anything you want to add to that just, you know, and then we'll we'll dig into kind of what you've been studying since, and what we're seeing in the literature now.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: No, I mean, I I think that the the way that you have conceptualized insight
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: has is driven by science. You've been talking to scientists for 2025 years now about insight, and so many of the hypotheses that you had, and sort of the way you think about insight, you know, turns out not only to be true, but supported by data now. And you know, data that didn't exist 10 or 15 years ago. Even so.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: I just want to acknowledge how sophisticated your thinking has always been about insight. And really everyone is just catching up to where you've been. So there's lots that's been done. We, you know, insight. We know so much more about it now than we did, and part of that is because the entire field of the neuroscience of creativity has has grown immensely over the last 20 years. Really, the some of the papers that Mark Beeman and John Cunio send
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: Jonathan Schooler wrote in the early 2 thousands. They were sort of the beginning. And now it's a huge field of.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: you know, hundreds of researchers and studying insights, studying lots of other things related to creativity, and it's an exciting time. So there's there's lots that we know now. But you, I think, have always been on the right track.
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Dr. David Rock: No, that's very kind of you. Thank you. As an Australian, I want to deny all of that and say it's not true. But thank you. That's kind. I mean, I was following. I was following a lot of observation. And really, you know, and I was talking to the scientists at the time I was like debating and digging in. It wasn't just. It didn't just come from nowhere. I would never have got these theories without
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Dr. David Rock: a lot of time with Mark, Beaman and and others, and I would just literally fly out and meet them and spend a few days like. Explain this, explain this, explain this and and really try to develop a proper theory. I mean, the scarf model took 3 and a half years of that
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Dr. David Rock: before I published. So it's always really keen to, you know, not just make something up, actually synthesize accurately what the science is. In fact, one paper we published we actually retracted 6 months after we published it, because it just even though we've done the work we just. It wasn't on insight, another domain. But we've done the work. It just wasn't like 100%. So I've always been super passionate about accurate synthesis of the space. Anyway. Enough about me. Tell me, just give us a little more of the shape, like what you just said is really interesting, I'm sure, to people
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Dr. David Rock: give us a little more of the shape of kind of the field over 20 years, and I think you're involved in the industry group now as well, and tell us a little bit more about the shape. Is there? Is there an annual conference? What are they publishing? What kind of things are they studying? And then maybe let's talk about creativity and insight.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: Yeah. Yeah. So as I mentioned the, you know, cognitive neuroscience is sort of nascent, as of, you know, 30 or 40 years ago, which for in in the you know, lifespan of sciences is pretty young, and the neuroscience of creativity is even younger than that, because creativity is really complex. It's easier to study, you know, things like perception. And you know.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: colors and and studying sort of what goes on when we have complicated ideas is one of the hardest things to do in neuroscience. So it has taken a lot of
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: sort of incremental steps, and you know, progress over time to get to a point where we could really study creativity on a neuroscience level. And that time is really now it's a super exciting time to be in the field, and
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: insight was one of the 1st things studied in the neuroscience of creativity, because it's such a discrete moment. And it's always been associated with creativity, and it's a moment that happens in time you can pinpoint it. And so if you can pinpoint it in time, then you can. You can study it with neuroimaging. So that's why some of the very 1st studies in the neuroscience of creativity we're trying to understand. Aha! Moments.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: And from there it's really flourished. And so there's a lot of work on insight. There's also a lot of work on things like divergent thinking sort of the process of generating ideas, whether those ideas are, you know, come by insight or not. There's a lot of research on things like attention and motivation and mind, wandering and creativity really involves the whole brain, which is why I love studying, and you don't need to choose.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: And you know things like, what are the dynamics? That sort of give rise to creativity. What are the characteristics of different types of people who seem to be more creative than others, or at least be able to come up with novel ideas more spontaneously, or sort of higher quality ideas. And what does that look like? In short, on short time scales and long time scales and.
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Dr. David Rock: Let's pause there. I am going to speak for everyone here and say, tell us more about the individual difference. What have what have we learned in you know, the last 20 years about individual difference, because it does seem like there are people who just seem to come up with a ton of ideas. And there's plenty of bad ones in there but myself being one, I seem to come up with a lot of ideas, including a lot of bad ones.
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Dr. David Rock: It's a.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: Come up with a lot of bad ideas to have a few good ones. And that's actually 1 1 of the things right. People who end up having the most creative ideas generate more ideas, and a lot of them aren't good. But you're sort of you know. You're increasing the likelihood that one is going to be good.
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Dr. David Rock: Reminds me of a meme I saw on a reel somewhere. I'm not on Tiktok, but it popped up somewhere and about like I think it was comparing the big name musicians. And what percentage of their songs are actually hits, you know that, like you think. Oh, my God, Taylor Swift's amazing. She got so many hits. But you see that it's only like
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Dr. David Rock: 1020, 30% of their songs are actually go anywhere. And there's a bunch of them go nowhere. It's like, and you you miss that stuff in life. So
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Dr. David Rock: I think, being able to just generate a lot of ideas must be central to creativity. What else have we learned about individual difference in creativity and insight?
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: Yeah, so you know. And and it sort of piggybacking off of that point. If you're going to sort of put yourself out there, and have just as many bad ideas as good ideas.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: There's a sort of bravery involved in that. There's a sort of tolerance for risk. Creativity, is it can be scary. It's also hard. So you have to be really motivated to engage in creative activity. It's much more difficult. It usually takes longer, and it
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: is more frustrating to choose to come up with something that hasn't been done before, instead of sticking with an option that you might know works. So what are the personality characteristics of people who choose the the latter instead of the former?
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: It's people who are really curious. Who are reward, motivated. And so that sort of translates to sometimes being comfortable with risk
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: and particularly reward, motivated around sort of the rewards of understanding things. You know. It feels good to understand things. It feels good to figure things out.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: And you know that that's just a human thing. We all enjoy puzzles and sort of learning new things. But people who are really successfully creative
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: really appreciate that and and seek it out and and prioritize it over.
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Dr. David Rock: Other things.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: Including oftentimes money and comfort.
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Dr. David Rock: Hmm, they love problem solving. They just like. And and their brain almost gets itchy if they're not problem solving
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: A problem if one doesn't exist.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, yeah, I I sometimes I I joke, you know, if I if I take like a serious vacation, I've got to be careful. I don't, you know, like write a play or something.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: My brain.
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Dr. David Rock: Just keeps going on something right if I try to, you know. So it's best to, just, you know, have good, good, healthy problems to solve at all times. If you've got a brain that kind of likes to do that, I guess that's really interesting. So there's different reward mechanisms involved different sort of prioritizing a problem, solving. But how big is the individual variation? How big is that individual variation in creative output.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: Yeah, I mean, you know, there, you know, creativity is like every other, you know, human characteristic. And there's going to be. It's a continuum right, and there's going to be a 1 really far end of the bell curve in one direction, and then most people are going to be in the middle. And you know
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: the
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: I also came to this sort of, and and still do really believe that
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: you know the way that we've talked about creativity. Historically, this is a bit of a caveat is, you know.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: we talk about these amazing creative artists, and the people who sort of break through are the ones who are successful, and that leads people to sort of conceptualize creativity as this thing, that only some people, some really incredible and sort of the 1% of creative artists are able to achieve. That's just not true. Creativity is a human thing. And that's actually what one of the things that separates us from from other animals. And so everyone
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: is creative. Everyone can be more creative and sort of
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: so much of creativity is also nurture instead of nature. And so there's room for I think.
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Dr. David Rock: Right.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: Lift across the board. That being said, you know, I have run experiments and actually just been flabbergasted at some people. They just like ooze creativity. And it's just it's coming out of their pores. And you know you can. You know, on one hand, I really believe in this sort of democratic view of creativity, and want to encourage creativity and talk about it.
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Dr. David Rock: Have it!
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: Accessible thing that people can see themselves as engaging in. And then it's just also true that there are people who are really creative. And it's usually people who sort of have these sorts of sort of characteristics.
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Dr. David Rock: It's an interesting dilemma. It's an interesting dilemma, because you don't want to like, say, well, there's massive variation in creativity and accidentally create a fixed mindset around creativity right where people go. Well, I'm not that creative. I'm not one of those top people so got to be careful. I think it's it's a delicate dance. There does seem to be strong individual variation, but but all people have it, and all people can improve it.
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Dr. David Rock: and it's a learnable skill. But there, you know that there are people, you know, who might have just, you know, higher starting point than others. You know one of my close friends is one of the founders of the Blue Man Group. You know, highly creative people, highly creative Guy. He's just fun to do anything with, you know, just to go out for dinner with some creative.
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Dr. David Rock: you know. Craziness just happens in the simplest thing. So there are people who just live in a world of constant creativity. And there are people where it's not as primed as sort of the first.st And I think it's partially that priming from from sort of nurture that they've sort of made it, you know their habit, but there's some basis. So we have to be careful of a fixed mindset. Let's go just go back, I said. You sort of set up, but I just want to crystallize it a bit more.
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Dr. David Rock: The relationship between creativity and insight like for the lay person. How would you explain that? So people could, like, you know. Take this to the bank, give, give me this sort of crisp definition on that.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: Yeah. So the way that we think about the relationship between creativity and insight now is that insight is part of creativity. It is not all of creativity. And I say that being extremely fascinated by insight, and I think it's the coolest thing ever. But it is just one part of the creative process. It's a really important part of the creative process.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: in order to have an insight.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: especially a creative insight, you really have had to work at something for a long time, and you have had to be motivated at something for a long time. And so there's this long lead up. And then there's you know what happens. You might have an amazing insight, and then that just gives you more work to do right, because now you you resolve some impasse. You have clarity, you you get it right. And so it's sort of the beginning and the end. And I see insights as sort of punctuating the creative process. It can sort of
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: be the moment of inspiration for something. And then you set out on some process of actually building a thing generating a thing, exploring some new idea or way of doing something
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: and actually being successful at that requires just a ton of focus and grunt work
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: and sustained motivation that that, and especially really big insights. They're going to feed you for a while. But you're going to have to find motivation elsewhere in the meantime.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: and then sort of you know, you come to a problem, and if you have done all your homework and set up, you might. You're gonna have more insights, and so I see it as creativity as a sort of
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: roller coaster and insights, for, like Turbo, you know, engines that can be sort of activated at different times to get you to the finish line. So I think that they're, you know.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: maybe 30, 50 years ago, I think, because insights are so salient. You know we all have them, and they've always been associated with these big moments of creativity. I'm not talking about it, not as that is what creativity is or the end point, but as part of the process that is important, because it's a means to an end motivationally and in terms of your, and in terms of sort of giving you the push to get from Point A to Point B.
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Dr. David Rock: Right? Right? I think. Sometimes I think of it as like the active ingredient like in a drug. You've got an active ingredient, right? But you still need filler, and you might need, you know, a pill you might need coating. You might need things that make it digest, but you have to have that active ingredient. And so it's required not sufficient for creativity. But maybe maybe it's not even required for all types of creativity, but for certain types of creativity. It's
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Dr. David Rock: maybe not required, but it's extremely helpful, but not just on its own as well. You know. I'm a bit of a Japanophile. I'll admit I love love, love, the culture there, the creativity, the novelty of you know those of you who haven't been there. It's like it's like a different version of humanity split off 300 years ago.
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Dr. David Rock: Just they do everything differently. And and whereas the sort of the sort of the whole of the Western world. And then Japan kind of just does everything differently and so fascinating, seeing the divergence of sort of human habits in some ways. And one of the things was fascinating was working with Honda, I think. Did you work with Honda with us for you on that project? Maybe maybe you were.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: I worked on honda a bit after after I worked for analy actually. And and so I got to. I I know what you're talking about. The Japanese corporate culture is incredible. And
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: and yeah.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah. So we worked with Honda that had 25,000 scientists working on like research. So we worked with the research function, with the leadership there and helping them think about like insight, innovation, creativity, how to create more of a growth mindset across, you know, 25,000 scientists. It was fascinating. We went back and forth over quite a few years, and
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Dr. David Rock: but one of the things that really struck me was well, 2 things. One thing was their robot, which they've kind of got out of the robot business now, but they spent probably billions building the most advanced incredible robots and just watching it like literally dance in front of you was just terrifying. But
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Dr. David Rock: we will. And suddenly we're back to Elon Musk again. But the thing that really blew me away was the whole origin story of Honda was basically a guy who saw women riding bicycles, carrying a lot of
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Dr. David Rock: you know, shopping back home and struggling with it, and he thought, Oh, I'm going to add a an engine! It was this whole like all these these engines lying around from the wars in like 19 forties. There's all these like decommissioned engines lying around, and little engines. He's like, I'm going to try putting an engine on a bike
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Dr. David Rock: and see if I can help. You know people get home easier with, you know, big loads of shopping, and I think it was his wife. Maybe I don't remember exact, but that I'm not sure about. But but he was. This was the sort of story, and then he started doing that, and then really quickly accelerated. But there was this basic concept of taking one idea and adding it to another. Let's take an engine and put it on a bike right to solve a problem. And to me, that's what insight and insight is just basically connecting things that haven't been connected before.
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Dr. David Rock: And in the moment when they're connected. It releases energy, depending on sort of how long you've been working on the problem for and the implications of the solution. And all this stuff. But it has this intrinsic motivation. It's very similar to a really really really funny joke.
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Dr. David Rock: but even more so because it can last. It can have these aftershocks, for you know, in this case, lifetimes. But it's such a powerful moment when you put things together that haven't been put together before, sort of in the brain and and all that, and kind of releases energy have we been? Has there been much study on that? Like the sort of Eureka scale concept? What have you seen out there on sort of measuring insight and the impact of them.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: Yeah, definitely. So, you know, there's been a change actually, in the way that insight is studied in the lab that you know. And there's been sort of different phases of insight research, as there are, you know, in in all domains. But
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: it used to be studied more as like you either have one or you don't, or dependent on the kind of problem so different certain problems were considered, you know, insight problems.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: Then people were interested in, you know, differences between arriving at a problem by insight or through a more analytical approach. So just you know this binary choice.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: Aha! Moment or not Aha! Moment. And now, in the past 10 years or so, scientists have introduced scales to that. So not just did you have an insight, but how strong, was it? And also this sort of sub components of insight, that sort of make up.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: That Aha! Experience metacognitively. There's there's, you know, the rewarding component of it. Certainty. The sort of suddenness with which you came to the idea. So sort of picking that apart.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: And you know that those pieces sort of correspond to different cognitive functions. The suddenness is about attention. The rewarding part is about sort of the reward. Mechanisms of the brain and confidence is a sort of can be a downstream effect of reward, but it it, and also sort of
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: you know, how much did you know about this problem before you approached it. And how does that increase the likelihood of you having an insight? How does it increase those factors? So that's a bit of a nerdy answer. But the the sort of trying to understand the intensity of this emotional experience is is very important to understanding what it even is and what it's made of.
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Dr. David Rock: Right? Right? Insight. Yeah, interesting. So the the I put it in the chat earlier. But I'll put it back in the sort of public version of the Eureka scale we published in Fast Company and the Eureka Scale paper. When we published it, took into account all those amazing studies, and we reference a lot of them kind of explaining it. And so
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Dr. David Rock: Eureka scale is like a sort of you can sort of use it in the lab. But it's also something you can use like day to day to just like, understand the importance of an idea like you have an insight like, oh, okay, is it a, you know.
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Dr. David Rock: Is it a 3? Is it a 4? Is a 5? 1 of my favorite things to do after an event like our our, you know. 2 Day Summit is coming up this October, you know. We'll we'll ask this at the end of each day. You know how many people had a level 5 inside, and the level 5 inside on a 5 point scale is one that you'll probably remember your whole life.
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Dr. David Rock: and you'll reorganize many things in the real world around it, and you know you'll be able to remember it certainly in decades like that moment when something changed right? You picked your career, or you changed your whole life or something. So those are level 5. Those are big. And I'm amazed actually, at how many level fives we get in a really well designed experience. But a level 4 you've obviously got, you know, 4.1 4.2 a 4 is the entry point
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Dr. David Rock: for getting real motivation happening. So when people have a 4, they seem to be motivated enough that they're very likely to take action on on some level and so that's that's your sort of entry point. If you're designing a leadership program or a learning program of any sort or a change, initiative or leadership, retreat, or whatever you want.
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Dr. David Rock: pretty much like 3 quarters of the group at least, to have at least one level. 4 insight or or it's really failing. You really want a hundred percent of people
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Dr. David Rock: to have at least one level 4 insight because they're going to do things differently as a result. And you know the people who say, Oh, yeah, I'm not really going to do much differently out of this, you know. Experience. They haven't had a level 4 insight.
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Dr. David Rock: They probably had 3. Where things are like interesting.
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Dr. David Rock: There's some implications, but not a lot of motivation, you know. So that's that's sort of how we've been framing anything, you know. How would you? How would you sort of
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Dr. David Rock: link that back to the research you're seeing out there.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: Yeah, yeah. So a few things. One is, I would say that. The the
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: in these kinds of learning experiences that you're running. You're getting people at such a perfect moment for them to have insights. You know. They're they're interested. They're coming in curious. And they probably have some problem that they're trying to solve, either if it's related to their own sort of skills and ability to do things, or there's things in their work or their life that they're trying to work on. And you know they've done all of that background work right. And so when you are able to provide
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: explanations and sort of ways of seeing things that tie so much of what they've noticed together into a really sort of coherent picture. You're sort of collapsing all of this uncertainty, and all of this sort of disorganized knowledge that people develop sort of over time in their careers into sort of a clear explanation.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: That is just the perfect moment pedagogically. Or you know, if you're designing learning, that's how you would do it. That's how you would want to get do the work to get someone in that space, and then think about how to bring it all together. So if you're designing for insight, you're not going to, you know, introduce.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: you know. Abcd, you might jump around a bit and then bring it all together so that you can create those powerful moments. So there's actually been some cool research on that in the education space over the last 10 years.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: Yeah, it's it.
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Dr. David Rock: It's interesting. I was talking with Ben Gelb recently, so we ran into each other socially, and I'd seen him perform a few times. He's a comedian, very successful comedian.
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Dr. David Rock: and I loved his performances. They're very impromptu like, like, you know, working with the audience in real time. You can really see how funny someone is when they're not prepared right? He was just hilariously funny, and I really loved talking to him. And I was. I was asking him about sort of the state of
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Dr. David Rock: of comedy. Now we're having this whole intellectual debate because I've been telling him about some of this this science
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Dr. David Rock: over dinner, and and I was explaining what what Mark Beaman said to me. Probably 15 years ago, he said. You know the best comedians sort of create like a like, you know, create like a gap, and then close that gap right? And it's funny. And then that. But then that's part of a bigger story. Then they close that gap, and then sort of the whole comedy set completes with some big insight. That sort of brings it all together, and those are the most rewarding.
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Dr. David Rock: you know. Comedy sets, and also the most rewarding books and movies. And all this other stuff right? Got insights within insights, within insights. And he was, and Ben was lamenting the state of comedy today where it's they sort of given up that art a bit. And it's just like just shooting things that people and just it's sort of like scatterguard approach of funny things without any overarching themes, or they sort of moved away from that stylistically in comedy now, and I was like, Oh, that's really a shame! And
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: Is that is that because sort of I I imagine it's
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: at least partially driven by sort of movements to shorter formats online. So are you basically designing jokes so that they can be captured in the length of a Tiktok video versus
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: spending 20 min on a set that has a really huge payoff that people online wouldn't get if you're only able to clip 60 seconds of it.
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Dr. David Rock: Absolutely. I have no idea how we got onto that topic, but it jumped into my brain. And
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: It's a good, it's a good transition. I on that note. I would, I would, you know, bring up this sort of
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: the importance of attention and insight, and we do think about you know how diffuse attention and sort of being in a mind, wandering state, or being relaxed as the state in which insights can happen. But
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: if, in order, you know, you're not going to have an insight, if you don't have the raw material to connect in those moments and part of what we lose
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: when we are, when our attention is sort of not able to focus on things deeply enough to sort of build up that raw material is the ability to sort of create patterns through reflection after. So for sort of always on.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: And if our attention scattered, and the quality of learning is just worse. We're not in the right headspace to have insight, but we also haven't done the lead up work to even have one if we were in the right headspace.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, interesting. So yeah, I want to address a comment or 2 in the chat with so some an observation that I've seen
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Dr. David Rock: And then I think, let's switch gears and and think about the implications of all this for innovation at work.
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Dr. David Rock: creativity at work, and all that. But you know we've trained a lot of facilitators at Nli over the years. We have a lot of faculty who go out and deliver our work and the goal of our work when we're delivering something. We don't do that much in person anymore. Well, before the pandemic it shifted to virtual. But in that case, even more importantly, the goal is to generate insights. Right? So we're not delivering content. We're trying to facilitate the strongest possible insight.
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Dr. David Rock: And so I've always, I've always explained to facilitators that there's sort of 3 levels at which your attention can be
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Dr. David Rock: pointed. So 3 directions your attention can go as the facilitator of a learning experience. Most people when they're starting out with a new, you know, with a new product, or just starting in the field, their attentions on themselves or the content right there. So they're like trying to remember the content trying to remember where they are, or they're very self-focused, you know, a little bit self-conscious, overly self-conscious, and other people read that as uncomfortable. It makes them uncomfortable.
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Dr. David Rock: And other people can see that you're not fully with them, that you're with internal ideas, and it just makes people check out because they don't feel connected to you. Not a good state. Right? The second state people go is they try to make sure that everyone in the room is getting the content.
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Dr. David Rock: Whether that's a virtual room or physical room. And but what happens is you end up teaching to the lowest common denominator.
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Dr. David Rock: Whoever is the slowest person to get this sort of dominates the conversation. You're trying to make sure everyone really understands this. It's ironically not the healthiest way to to create the strongest insights. The healthiest way to create the strongest insights is you try to help people have insights, and then you try to connect them
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Dr. David Rock: together in different ways. And so you try to find those Meta insights that connect the insights together. And so you have people popping, and then you get those people to share their insights, which helps everyone pop as well.
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Dr. David Rock: because insights seem to help other people have insights. And so you're essentially giving attention to insight, not giving attention to people not getting it. You're giving attention to insight, connecting them together and then trying to create those Meta insights like Mark Beaman told me, was so useful years ago. So that's that's how I think the best facilitators actually create the most change is, they literally
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Dr. David Rock: give attention to maximize and deepen insight in that way. Which is a really interesting implication. So.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: Yeah, to to be in conversation with someone, you know, whether it's 2 people talking or the facilitator creating an environment where it feels conversational, and that you know that their attention is on you.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: Should really help. And you know, I saw a paper published just in the last year, and I can't believe that this hadn't been done previously, you know, studying and said in the lab usually happens, you know, one person in one room or at their computer or something, you know, having insights based on some prompt. But someone studied
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: people having insights in conversation, and of course insights happen in conversation just needed someone to sort of do the work to study it. And they found some interesting personality and gender differences, too, which aren't prescriptive. But you know, women report having lots of insights when they're talking to people, and not that men don't. But women just do more. And I think that
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: that sort of reveals, you know, one of the one of the other mechanisms of insight that we don't talk about as much, but obviously is implicit in all of your work is the insight through conversation. And especially if you have a friend or a collaborator where you know enough of the same things that you're speaking the same language, but you're bringing different things
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: and perspectives to the picture, and you can really sort of open up new trains of thought and help one another see things differently. So if you have a friend that you always seem to sort of have jokes or insights with, that's no accident. And and you know the best teams are made up of people. I think you have that kind of.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, super fun, super fun. So yeah, so so many different things coming up for me. But I just want to get this out of my queue which is a you know, brain brain speak. But the
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Dr. David Rock: we decided just in the last few months to actually kind of give away some of our best training and thinking that we normally reserve for our own facilitators and us. And we're actually opening up a program called Brain-based design and facilitation, and one of the features of that will actually be teaching faculty how to generate insights both from a design, perspective, and facilitation perspective. So it's brain based design and facilitation. You could call it insight, based design and facilitation.
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Dr. David Rock: or whatever, because that'll be such a centerpiece. Although real change insights a piece of it. You also want a few other things that are really, really important, so that we're running that in New York in person, we're doing one in London in person, and then we're going to run a virtual one early in the New Year.
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Dr. David Rock: And if you're interested in in sort of getting info about about that. Just put, I guess. I guess it's a complex metaphor name. We need a better name for Bbdf brain based design facility. Put Bbdf in the chat and your company name
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Dr. David Rock: and someone will get back to you with the details of that and the virtual program you'll be able to get into that. So that's that's something that's that's coming up. But I think there's there's a lot of like, you know, when you understand insight. There's a lot of things that you'll do differently.
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Dr. David Rock: you know, in in designing and facilitating the one thing I'll say about
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Dr. David Rock: the data in conversation. I wish we'd really collected data formally. But I I used to run all our brain based coaching programs for the 1st decade or so.
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Dr. David Rock: And I designed an exercise that collected data, but we never formally like collected. But I was observing this, and I would have observed this north of like
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Dr. David Rock: probably north of a thousand people
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Dr. David Rock: over more than 50 different programs over a decade. And what I, what I saw was we collected data about basically, you know, everyone write down a challenge that you you that you wish you had an insight about like something you're really stuck on, for, you know, weeks or months or years.
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Dr. David Rock: Everyone write down a challenge. We call an impasse.
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Dr. David Rock: Pair up randomly, talk for 10 min. See what happens. No, no explanation, no training starting point. And what we found is about 5% of the time when you when you just sit down, have a conversation about an impasse, an insight happens, and we wouldn't. We would define that insight as something changed. And there's a very high likelihood you're going to do something differently now.
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Dr. David Rock: So, as I call it, a level 4 insight, not just a 3, right? So we didn't have that language then, but about 20, about 5% of the time one in 20 conversations, you know if you pair 20 people up
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Dr. David Rock: which means you've got 40 because you're pairs right? You're you're pairing 40 people up into 20 pairs
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Dr. David Rock: a a good. You know, one person from that group will say, Wow! Something really big happened. And I've just not had that insight before. And I really am going to do something differently. As well. So that was really interesting. And then we measured this with people who'd done normal coach training or therapy, or counseling and other stuff. And we, we had an opportunity to measure this. And we found that was 30 to 50%
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Dr. David Rock: in populations that had some training. And just like, you know, more solutions, focused questions, or they just had some, you know, some basic training. But we found when we taught the specific conditions that increase insight when we which which I mean talking about when we actually taught that. And we taught a questioning approach that focused on insight, we got that to 75%.
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Dr. David Rock: And I've been talking about my team about reproducing this and collecting data again formally with a study. But we're able to get that to 75%, and sometimes in the workshops it would be a hundred percent, which was super spooky, because this is a 10 min conversation and something that they'd had for months or years.
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Dr. David Rock: and just by having the right dialogue you could bring them to insight. So I'm going to terrify you all by saying that we've trained AI on how to do this now, and we have an AI that has this exact approach to coaching built in now. And we're beta testing this with some partners. It's called Niles. If you haven't been following us
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Dr. David Rock: neuro, intelligent leadership enhancing system. So Niles can actually coach you through any impasse and really help you have an insight. It's quite terrifying and amazing. So it's a
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Dr. David Rock: yeah. That's a that's a lot of fun, anyway. Christine, back to you.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: I'm going to challenge. I'm gonna challenge us to take really, seriously measuring this in the future, because I think that that data is absolutely invaluable. And
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: and the data that you already have is incredible. And everyone you know, the the proof is in the outcomes. But I think that we can capture that data. And and I, I think that we can come up with good ways to also measure
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: what happens. After a month, 3 months, 6 months later.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, I think we could do it virtually now, like pair people up for you know, get people registered for a study and actually just do it virtually like, Oh, you've got, you know, people just popping up in a in a room. So we're gonna design to get onto that. But just. It's just amazing that you could get people to have insights just by, you know, focusing questions on the mechanics of insight. And you could show me, you know, someone says I'm having trouble with a project. You could show me a hundred questions, and I can stack, rank them as to which ones
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Dr. David Rock: are most likely to generate. Insight, like the science, is actually really well
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Dr. David Rock: developed now. But let's let's shift gears your thoughts on innovation in companies, your thoughts on. You know the implications of all this for organizations, innovations, and creativity. What are your reflections on that.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: Yeah, there's you know, there's a there's a really growing interest, I think, in applying the science of creativity to organizational context. And there's quite a bit of research, but less than you might think, actually, because
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: it's a really tough challenge. Right? You have balancing the demands of just getting stuff done and enabling people to sort of fulfill the basic functions of their job in a world that is constantly changing, and then creativity is often kind of seen as a nice to have. After that, I think the changing perspective would be actually the kind of work that we do now requires creativity
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: all the time, even if you don't have sort of a creative job, you know, there's there's careers or or sort of roles that are categorized as like, oh, this is a creative role. This is a non creative role. Like the graphic designers, the, you know, the research scientists who are in R&D, you know the the artists, the the animators, right? Those are the, you know, the creative. So the the screenwriters. And then there's everyone else.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: And I think that there probably are different processes similar to the way that we think about high performers, or, you know, picking out high potential individuals, which, of course, is, you know, the
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: best practices are sort of always in flux on that. But there, there may be different things that you might do for people who are.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: You know those oozing creativity people, because those people can be more difficult to manage sometimes, because, you know, if you if you are, you know.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: I think people have 1 1 of the sort of, I guess big Aha! Moments or funniest things that I feel like I've learned through this process is.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: you know, people who are super creative are not always the easiest to work with. They are they can be really great, but also really difficult. You know, if you think that your creative idea is good enough, you might be kind of, you know.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: really focus on yourself or
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: Bullish in how you approach things. And those are really good things in context, but sort of you know how. So? How do you sort of enable the best from super creative people, and that, you know not all super creative people are like that. But there's a lot that comes with the territory of being in that category. And I and it would be, you know.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: not only noticing that identifying those as strengths rather than problems to fix, and, you know, having different processes or different ways of managing people who have a lot of creative potential is one way. But then I also think that there's solutions for everyone, right? How do we see the opportunities for creativity in all of our work? And it's not that we're trying to make our work more creative. But just notice when
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: different problems actually require a creative approach and label it so that we can sort of lift everyone's boats as well.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, we we apply. Those are really deep thoughts. Thank you. We apply some of that in a lie. You know, we do almost all our meetings are virtual.
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Dr. David Rock: and you know we'll often just pause and say we're we're at a point. We need some insight. Let's all just walk away from our computers. Leave everything on. Go and make a cup of tea. Come back in 5 min, or let's just leave this. Come back to it tomorrow. So we're often noticing when something is an impasse, and that we need like a divergent answer. And we'll let that you know. Really let that sit speaking of divergent answers as we wrap this up. I'm going to hand back to
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Dr. David Rock: to Shelby in a moment, but I know you're speaking at the summit coming up. I'll put that link in the chat. The summit this year is is fully virtual, but the upside of that is you. Can. You can like, bring your whole team along and participate from anywhere. And we've got an amazing program coming up. You're involved in one of the sessions on the keynote, I think on day 2 around AI and creativity in the brain. And we're going to be digging into how to leverage the the strengths of AI and the strengths of the human brain to really increase creativity and
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Dr. David Rock: building on some of this. So thanks for participating in that, it's going to be a great a great summit. We're psyched about the program and the people involved, Christine, just such a pleasure to connect again and congrats on your contributions in in the field. I look forward to a lot more collaboration as we go further in studies, and
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Dr. David Rock: I think we probably should run a neuroscience of insight and Creativity Conference together at some point. And thanks again. Yeah, thanks again for joining us any closing comments before we wrap up.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: No, I mean, I can't thank you enough. You know I've learned so much from you, and I'm so excited to be able to continue learning from you. And there's there's so much opportunity in this space, and I'm really excited to be able to work in a slightly different capacity. Than than before.
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Dr. Christine Chesebrough: But everyone should be excited about the opportunities for creativity at work, and it's going to be really fun.
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Dr. David Rock: I think there's so much more research to do. It's still very, very early days and some incredible things. Yeah, I'm psyched to be collaborating again. Thanks so much for joining us today. Thanks everyone for being here. Back to you, Shelby, and take care of yourselves. Look after each other. Keep doing? What matters bye, bye.
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Shelby Wilburn: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Christine and David, for today's discussion. We appreciate your time and always look forward to hearing new insights as we shared the poll is up. Let us know how analog can help you in the future. As I already mentioned, Summit 2024 is on the way. It will take place October 29th and 30, th and you won't want to miss it. It will be a virtual experience. So if you want any information to know more about our speakers. Sessions that are happening and be in the know visit, summit.neuraladership.com for all your needs.
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Shelby Wilburn: Also, if you enjoyed today's session, we have our podcast, your brain at work. So wherever you listen to your podcast, you can search for that and episodes will be there, and this is where we say farewell. So on behalf of our team behind the scenes. Thank you so much for being here every week, and we will see you back next Friday. Have a wonderful day.