Leaders don’t just need AI, they need a leadership AI that creates an ecosystem of coherent insights that makes them smarter and more effective. Join us for this week's Your Brain at Work, featuring NLI’s CEO and Co-Founder, Dr. David Rock, and VP of Solutions, Rachel Cardero, as they discuss how a leadership AI should be designed. The future of leadership AI is both predictive and coherent. It’s designed not only to support leaders in the flow of work but also to deliver predictive “neuro-intelligent nudges”— personalized actions based on what it has learned about the leader and their colleagues. A leadership AI should help overcome the challenges leaders face before they happen through seamless integration of coherent insights. This is the future of NILES, our NeuroIntelligent Leadership Enhancing System. Join David and Rachel as they reveal how neuroscience is shaping the newest version of NILES — and what exciting developments are on the horizon.
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Rachel Cardero: Hello! Hello! Welcome, everybody!
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Rachel Cardero: Happy to have you here!
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Rachel Cardero: Happy Friday to all of you joining today. We're excited to be with you. We're excited to have you with us.
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Rachel Cardero: Welcome, everybody!
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Rachel Cardero: Happy Friday. Oh, I see. A hello from Boston. Hello! Hello!
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Rachel Cardero: I'm in the New York area right now. Big Hello from New York City.
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Rachel Cardero: Thank you for joining us today. We're excited to get into today's topic
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Rachel Cardero: as you all join. Of course we're happy to have you here today. Give us a hello in the chat. We're going to be referencing the chat and talking to you all through the chat, answering your questions through the chat, and I see Texas. I see Dallas, San Antonio! Hello! From Florida, from Iran, Hello! From Redmond, from London. Look at that beautiful from Chile. Hello! Hello, everybody! Welcome!
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Rachel Cardero: Wow! From Congo, from the Dominican Republic from Denver. What a beautiful broad group of folks joining us today!
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Rachel Cardero: We'd love to see participants from the States, from Emea, from all locations.
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Rachel Cardero: and as you get settled, you know, get ready for a really captivating session today
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Rachel Cardero: and send us a quick Hello! Where you're calling in from, or where you're joining us from
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Rachel Cardero: before we jump into today's topic, I have the pleasure of introducing our CEO and co-founder of the Neuro Leadership Institute, the man that coined the frame, the phrase, neural leadership, Dr. David Rock, David, do you want to say Hello.
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David Rock: Hey, Rachel! Good to be here.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah. Great to be here. It's an exciting topic.
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David Rock: It's a it's a deep topic. We're going to go deep today.
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David Rock: We're gonna get really into into something big. So I hope you're ready for some for some big
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David Rock: I big ideas. I can't promise big insights, but big ideas. We'll see how big the insights are.
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Rachel Cardero: The insight, the insights come, they come.
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Rachel Cardero: And so today we really wanted to talk about something that I think is on everybody's mind. Everywhere that I look, whether it's on Linkedin or a social media feed, or if it's in a newspaper magazine, AI is mentioned somewhere, and in the same breath. We're talking about how organizations are gonna thrive or not based on. You know how AI is pushing us. What is that future of leadership and organizational leadership look like.
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Rachel Cardero: And every day there's a new discovery. And one of the things that we've done at the Neural Leadership Institute is really try and think from a brain-based perspective like go back to 1st principles, what is needed? What really matters really tap into the logic
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Rachel Cardero: and those those 1st principles from a cognitive perspective that will maximize AI and just meet people where they are one of my favorite insights I can't remember. I've been at Nli for almost 13 years at this point. But one of my favorite insights in one of those years was like, you know what? No matter. Everybody has a brain so a little obvious, but, like all of our research, can help absolutely anybody, no matter what organization or culture you're in.
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Rachel Cardero: And so, David, I'm wondering, you know, as we think about.
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Rachel Cardero: a coherent system of insights, that ecosystem that helps people really accelerate the right behaviors deliver results. You know, coherence is a major part of that. I wonder, you know, if for audience you introduce a little bit like what is coherence? Why does it matter.
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David Rock: Yeah, I let me set the stage a bit with something we're gonna come back to. I feel like,
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David Rock: I feel like that. That movie American Beauty. We're going to say something at the start, and we're going to come right back to it at the end. And what I want to say at the start, and sort of plant is
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David Rock: is like. Many of you have probably seen the research that's just come out in the last couple of months the last couple of weeks, you know, one study from Mit, some other studies just came out this week that we've been tracking, basically showing that reasonable level use of AI, particularly, Gen. AI is reducing critical thinking skills. But it's reducing much more than that. It's actually making people less cognitively effective. It's
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David Rock: having all sorts of impacts really no surprise to me, because.
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David Rock: you know, if you don't do anything, you slowly lose that capacity. If you speak fluent Italian, then don't speak for 6 months. Your Italian is definitely not as fluent anything that you don't use. Your brain starts to recycle those pathways. So it's really not that surprising that these capacities will atrophy quite meaningfully, but we'll dig into that sort of towards the end sort of why that is, and how. But but there's something that sort of no one's talking about, and that is that that like.
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David Rock: how would you build an AI that actually makes people smarter
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David Rock: in using it right and not just how do you minimize atrophy?
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David Rock: I think that's the complete wrong question. We'll come back to that question. But it's really, how do you build an AI that actually makes people smarter. And for us, you know, we've been thinking about making smart people smarter for 26 years, literally, since we 1st started coaching people using an approach that seemed to be
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David Rock: faster than any other at creating insight. And this this whole journey over 26 years. One theme has been, you know, help smart people get smarter as fast as possible, right?
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David Rock: And so many of you know we've launched an AI. But we're not going to demo the AI today. We just did a session. Recently, I did a couple of those. We can put those in the chat so you can kind of listen to just how ridiculous this AI is, but I want to dig a little deeper, and one of the 1st things with like making smart people smarter is you actually need a you need to understand this concept called coherence and
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David Rock: coherence can mean a lot of different things like in the brain. It looks like like synchrony.
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David Rock: like, like the the different
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David Rock: the different parts of the brain like working together. Really? Well,
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David Rock: the different networks like coherent. So they they're functioning perfectly. So. Imagine an orchestra right? An orchestra that that's coherent is, you know, every part is playing exactly the right way exactly the right time. They're fitting together beautifully. It sounds like one whole right? It doesn't sound like, you know, 10 different groups of instruments, string and wind and percussion. And all this separately right? Every individual player is playing amazingly. Every group of players, like
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David Rock: a group of violins, is playing together beautifully. Those violins work beautifully with the cellos, with beautifully with the, you know, with also with the you know, with the flutes and the piano, and everything fits together. It's incredibly complex. So coherence is a little bit like that. But there's a coherence. There's a coherent factor in just about every system.
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David Rock: including just like, you know, mountains, they have a certain level of coherence. How well does everything kind of vibrate together fit together? It starts to sound wacky. But let's let's talk about coherence of ideas.
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David Rock: Right? There's a coherence in the world of ideas.
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David Rock: And it's basically the structural integrity of those ideas. I want to say that a few times slowly and give you some understanding. It's the structural integrity. So how well things fit together of ideas. Right? It's a very, very important construct. And people who are in the human development space, the leadership development, space, the personal development space, the you know, the screenwriting phase space, the book writing space. They don't think enough about how all the ideas fit together. And there is actually a real science
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David Rock: to the same extent that there's a science of building a building right? There are. There are rules you have to follow.
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David Rock: so that the building literally stays up when the wind blows right like. If a building has good structural integrity.
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David Rock: If there's a really strong wind, it doesn't blow over.
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David Rock: If a building has really good structural integrity every time you, when you build it. Every layer that you add makes the whole building stronger. You don't like. Add 3 more layers on top. And suddenly the things wobbly like you're not allowed to do that right. There's engineering principles for buildings
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David Rock: that you can't just add more stuff. And suddenly it's going to be. It's going to topple over right. But there's no engineering principles for learning solutions. And you just add whatever, and there's no metrics. There's no measure. There's no governing body. Just throw whatever you want into a leadership program or an AI just throw whatever. So so really, coherence is how all the ideas
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David Rock: fit together, and particularly the models of the world that you're producing. Let's talk about a, you know. Let's talk about an AI right, that the models of the world that that AI is drawing on, actually fit together and support each other
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David Rock: in such a way that the whole is really strong and won't just topple over. You can't just kind of give it a nudge and say, Well, you know, what about? You know? What about this particular aspect? And then you get a mental explosion. So coherence is the structural integrity of ideas. We study it. We actually can assess a company's entire learning architecture. All the way down to an individual learning program. We have a thing called a learning audit. We can assess the coherence
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David Rock: as well as the stickiness which is related, but different things. We can assess the coherence and stickiness of anything from a whole curriculum to an individual program. There's a very real thing to it. In fact, we wrote a paper on it. I'm not sure I don't think it's available publicly. But we wrote a paper in our journal. If you're a corporate member, you can access that on coherence, it kind of gets into the science of it, anyway.
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David Rock: clearly passionate. And one of the interesting challenges with AI is that if you're asking, you know if you're a manager in a company. And you ask, Chatgbt, how do I give feedback to this person that AI is drawing from hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of different models of feedback
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David Rock: and different theories of feedback different, you know, researchers on feedback. And when it gives you that answer, that answer is not going to be coherent with? How do I deal with conflict in my team? How do I motivate someone?
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David Rock: How do I? You know onboard new people? How do I deal with people who are overwhelmed. How do I, you know, find someone's strengths like none of it's going to fit together. And so you're going to use these advisors. And that's what everyone's using. AI for. You're going to use these advisors, and none of the pieces are going to fit together. So you're not going to get smarter.
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David Rock: you might actually get more confused.
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David Rock: So it's not just that people aren't using parts of their brain. It's that these general ais are not tuned to one particular coherent set of frameworks, and so they're probably making people's brains noisier. So you know, coherence for me. Coherence is everything, and we've been building a coherent set of of models about
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David Rock: what happens when you lead. Since, you know, we 1st published, we published the 1st ones like formally in 2,008. But really, we started in about well, 1998, really, we started developing models for how to, you know, coherent models for how to basically make smart people smarter, anyway. So that's that's coherence. I could talk for 3 h just about coherence, a lot of really interesting science of it, a lot of really fascinating neuroscience of it as well. In the in the paper that we wrote.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, I could talk about it for hours, too. I think if we I mean something that always comes up for me whenever I'm reading research about coherence, or I'm looking at experiments tied to coherence is just, I think, like it's really looking at the harmony of things, and from a cognitive perspective. I mean, research shows that when you have decoherence, when you don't have that structural integrity of ideas, the harmony across what you're talking about, the ideas that you're talking about.
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Rachel Cardero: What it does is it creates cognitive dissonance, which is friction. It creates those moments where you waste time wondering how does this fit together. What are we supposed to do here, or why am I actually taking this direction? And you remember more when things are coherent? You can actually remember a lot more information than when it's decoherent. And so it's this superpower where you actually save time, remember more and can act more quickly.
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Rachel Cardero: I'm wondering, like David for you. What else like? Why else do you think leaders really need coherence? Given the pressures that they're under.
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David Rock: But I think there's a couple of comments in the chat. I'll answer along with your question. I think that, like you know, if you're in a company, and you're getting your advice on how to manage people from a General AI, whether it's Chat Gbt or Claude, or whatever you're using right that it doesn't understand your industry. It doesn't understand the particular challenges at this time in your industry. It doesn't understand how you generate income.
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David Rock: It doesn't understand the trends, the macro trends in your industry. It doesn't understand how you need to work with people like it's really missing an enormous number of levels of context
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David Rock: around that. So an AI that's a not tuned to leadership is a problem because leadership has its own challenges. But an AI that's not tuned to your company, and your industry is also a problem. So really it should be coherent with your company's like business strategy. Your company's vision first, st like your company's vision. You know your business strategy, your leadership principles and your values should be coherent to all of that, plus understand your company's. You know the industry trends and what's going on
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David Rock: right? So that it absolutely should be tuned to leadership, but also leadership in your company, right? And leadership in your industry.
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David Rock: So that's what you really want in an AI that is supporting your managers. And that's, you know, that's literally what we've built. So I think there's some we're going to see more and more interest in, you know, very
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David Rock: focused ais as opposed to general ones. We're going to see more and more very focused ais over the years, and as opposed to sort of 3 or 4 big ones. I think we're going to see, you know, thousands of ais for very, very different purposes. We're already seeing our AI Niles is, there's going to be a, you know, healthcare AI and a financial services. AI, you know, frontline healthcare, Niles. And all
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David Rock: this kind of thing. So anyway, I think coherence is about everything fitting together everything making sense. It's about context, and for leaders who are feeling overwhelmed it should be about helping them gain clarity over what to do, and if we tell them you know how to lead better it should fit with the leadership model. They've been told matters. And
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David Rock: you know the business strategy all of this. So so that's why I think it's really really important for leaders that you know the models that we teach have to fit together.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, the model has to be right. And it, I think, what you're saying about the industry and the business itself, like, I think about us at an ally. Leadership for us is about being really human and keeping it real and then pushing the limits with innovation. But at other organizations it's risk management and actually keeping people safe. And so the model matters a lot. And I know sometimes it doesn't matter at all if it's a bad model. I'm wondering, like, what do you see as the value of models overall.
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David Rock: Well, there's an important idea. That sort of struck me years ago that I just started thinking about lately, which is that all models are wrong.
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David Rock: and and some are useful
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David Rock: right. And when I say all models are wrong, like all models, describe one particular aspect of the world, let's say, of the cognitive world. Let's put aside, you know, models of physics and models of chemistry. And you know models of engineering bridges. And let's talk about models of how humans can lead each other.
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David Rock: There is over a million books on leadership, right? There's probably a similar number of leadership models, so to speak, out there, if you, if you just think about kind of this, is not a leadership model, but a model like a sort of
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David Rock: assessing people model, you know, there's there's like the big 5 psychological factors. There's also, you know, like Myers-briggs, there's the disc assessment. There's, you know, there's there's Hogan there's all these things. It's about 10 in use models that millions of people use right? Roughly. 10, you know, sort of big models for understanding people. What's fascinating is they've all been validated in the sense that they've all been proven to be correct. And yet they're completely different.
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David Rock: not completely different. There's some similarities, but generally they're really really different.
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David Rock: And I kind of have issues with that. If they're so different, like, how is it possible that they're validated? If there's 10 different models that all say they're absolutely right. And yet they're completely different. Right? There's something going on going on there. So I think when you look at a model.
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David Rock: they're they're all fundamentally just describing one particular aspect, and some of them do it better than others.
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David Rock: So they're fundamentally wrong because there are others that are also right.
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David Rock: but some of them are useful, right? And they're useful in a certain construct. Now, what do I mean by useful, useful means that ultimately something's useful, a model's useful if people use it. That sounds very obvious and cliche, but it's useful that people use it regularly, which means probably many times a week, right. So a model is useful
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David Rock: if people use it, you know, at least once a week.
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David Rock: It's it's part of their language. It's it's a frame, and some, you know, some models that are useful. What they do is they help people notice an opportunity to do something differently
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David Rock: right like. If we sat down and talked all about the amygdala hijack which we think of as a level. 3 threat response, right? And we said, Look, basically, this is a very, very simple model, right? It's not even a model. It's just a concept, but like a model. If we said, Look the amygdala hijack when you get this level 3 threat where you basically can't think at all. And you're really activated. Your nervous system's really fired up. You just you just feel like shouting at someone or worse, writing a long email
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David Rock: like, when you're in that place, your thinking is going to be really poor. You're going to make decisions. You're going to really regret, you know. Write that email, save it. Don't send it. Get into the habit of getting it out of your system, but don't send it right. That's a really useful model. You try that a few times. You're like, Wow! My life is so much better. I'm having so much less unnecessary conflict. That's useful. So the model of understanding the threat level that a certain level of threat reduces cognition to a dangerous level
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David Rock: that's really really helpful. That's a really useful construct. Right? So what we found is that, you know, scarf is an incredibly useful model, because it's sticky, you know, status certainty, autonomy, religious fairness. It's sticky, and because you immediately start to see it everywhere, and because you start to see it everywhere, you're reminded of it, and it has this opportunity of reminding you to do something differently.
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David Rock: So so models are useful because you actually do something differently
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David Rock: and useful. Models remind you easily right. The easy recall under pressure. Things so useful models remind you easily
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David Rock: to do things differently. Right? So that's that's the way you know I see it. And for for me, you want models. You want a series of models that fit with other models.
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David Rock: Right? So you know, we developed 3 levels of threat which talks about, you know, use stress, which is positive stress and then kind of frazzle. And then this level 3 immediately hijack and begin to recognize this. This is great, but this fits with the scarf model right, which explains what drives those things
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David Rock: which also fits inside of understanding, inclusion, and understanding, motivation and understanding, individual difference. And all these other things. So scarf ends up, being inside, one way or another, about 2 thirds of the things that you end up putting into a leadership program. Right? So what's happening is that you keep coming back to these foundational ideas.
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David Rock: And if it's a useful idea and you can keep coming back to it. You're just going to help people remember to do things differently. So ultimately, any leadership model is useless unless people actually do something differently. And if you're running leadership programs or soft skills programs of any way, I challenge you. I encourage you. I beg you, I dare you ask the really critical question. 30 days after a program. How many things are you doing differently now that are now a habit?
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David Rock: You're right and and like literally, what are you doing differently now and then. Ask them again 6 months later, 6 months later. What are you doing differently now that you weren't doing before? That's now a habit really really important question. So all models are wrong. Some are useful, the useful ones create habits, the useful ones like really bring people into this, this consciousness of all right. This is an opportunity to do something differently here.
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Rachel Cardero: And we have some great observations like, you know, models are reductions of reality, and even people saying, like some of the models we use have been questioned, and they're not really proven yet. You do see in organizations people love them. People really hold on to models that have no evidence behind them many times, and they, you know, they remember their profile, and they use it to make decisions. And other times they don't
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Rachel Cardero: and I'm wondering, David, like you've worked with so many organizations. We do learning audits and all types of different coherence analysis of like from your perspective. When you think about a coherent ecosystem. When you see that alive and well, how is that unique? What do you see? That's different. What's the value of really taking the time to build it.
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David Rock: Yeah, I mean, what's what's unique about it is everything fits together in some way or another. Right? The challenge when you run a leadership program with ideas from many different partners, right from many different vendors. Right? Let's say you've got a big company. You put all your 1st time managers through something middle managers through another vendor, senior managers to another vendor. You've got all these different models for how to deal with conflict, for how to give feedback for how to motivate people. Right? You've got all this noise. And what happens is people
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David Rock: soak up all these models and ideas.
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David Rock: and they can't fit them together into a Meta schema a meta schema. They can't see how it all fits together, and so they make one of 2 decisions.
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David Rock: One decision is, the is is, I'm not smart enough to see the pattern
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David Rock: right. I can't hold it all together. There's no way people can hold all these things together. It's too much. I can't see the pattern to make it fit together, so I can hold it so either I'm not smart enough, or the people who put this together didn't really care enough, and there is no pattern.
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David Rock: and they're not respecting that. It's impossible to hold this together. Right? So this is just bunk right? They're wasting my time.
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David Rock: So we make one of those 2 decisions. I'm not smart enough, or they weren't smart enough.
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David Rock: Right? And usually, I mean we've never studied which question people which direction people go. It'd be an interesting research.
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Rachel Cardero: No one chooses. I'm not smart enough. I think we.
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David Rock: No people usually choose. This was which Dummy put this together. It's way too much for me to take in. It's way for me to too much, and I can't apply it. I don't remember it, like, you know, all the time. So the result of a coherent of coherence is, people can fit it all together, and you know you can create an amazing amount of a very sticky content. Very sticky insights if it all fits together. But the brain has to fit it together.
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David Rock: It has to form a Meta schema where you see it all. And this comes back to, like, you know, building a building. This is structural integrity.
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David Rock: This is the structural integrity of ideas. Now, to someone's question, oh, yeah, we can absolutely measure the structural integrity of a learning architecture. Right? We will. If it's an individual program, we'll just literally look at all the different models that are in there, and how many of them fit with each other? How many of them stand alone? How do they connect? Are they tenuous connections or strong connections? What's the nesting? What's the hierarchy like? What's the central idea?
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David Rock: What? How does that chunk out? How is it explained? We studied one program. There's a company that asked us. They hired us to study a day long program they put 50 people into. And it was a program about better communication as leaders. There were 23 different models in this one day, program 23. I'm serious. And we asked people about 2 months later what they remembered with open field, and no one remembered anything.
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David Rock: and we asked people what they were doing differently, and the answer was 0. We got to study about 30 out of the 50 people, but what was interesting is the Nps of that was really high, and the company was about to roll it out to a thousand partners, because those 50 people had said it was amazing. They'd had a great day. They'd learned a lot right. Nothing was coherent.
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David Rock: So there were just 30 completely different models that didn't fit together. But it made them feel smart. They had a fun day. They felt like they learned a lot intellectually. They did learn a lot intellectually, but it didn't fit together. So that's the
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David Rock: that's the challenge. I know we've written a bit about coherence. Maybe my team can find some of the publicly available articles and put those together into the chat. But it's yeah. It's really, really important for leadership development. I think it's actually going to be even more important for an AI. If you're if you're getting your people to use an AI, you're going to want coherence in the backbone of this.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, I remember one organization we work with that had over 54 models and over 200 different behaviors across the organization. And they just, you know, expecting people to know them backwards and forwards. Nobody did but it means everybody's pulled in a slightly different direction.
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Rachel Cardero: and with the immediacy of AI like, what are the you're already noticing these things? But why do you think? What do you think people can do like? What should they do so. People are looking at, you know, buying AI solutions, using AI like, where does one start? If you have this big, decoherent ecosystem.
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David Rock: Yeah, I know it's it's really tricky. I mean, we're doing a lot of work lately to something we started doing about 12 years ago, which is to kind of clean up the ecosystem. So remove these, you know, 70 different behaviors and and replace it with, you know, 3 focuses and 9 habits. It's, you know, it's 3 to 5 months of work. It's really intense, but it's incredibly helpful
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David Rock: to simplify and focus. And you know we did that for Microsoft over 10 years ago. It's still the central framework for leadership and and used for all other people practices as a framework. So I think it's a really good time to clarify what you want from leaders and simplify it and focus it.
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David Rock: And then an AI can really help to embed that right, but it can be really difficult, you know, across the top. But there's another. There's another sort of issue here, and let's go back to sort of where we started is
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David Rock: is this question of of you know, is your AI going to make people more intelligent or less intelligent?
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David Rock: And I think coherence is one piece of it, right? Coherence is definitely one aspect of it. But it's not that you want to minimize the negative effects of the AI. It's how do you maximize the positive effects of an AI?
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David Rock: How do you maximize the positive effects of the AI such that people are literally getting smarter?
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David Rock: And you know. How do we do that? So we've seen some studies come out. One study just came out in the last week or 2 showed that people using AI, and we presented something on this. We didn't write it, but we presented something on this at our last summit, people using AI. There was definitely a regression to the mean. Like, if you gave people a creative task, they're all using AI, you got incredibly similar results, much less creativity than if people were not using AI.
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David Rock: So there's a regression to the mean. You don't really want all your employees doing what everyone else's employees are doing, which is asking AI. Hey? How do I come up with a good marketing strategy for my widget? Not a good idea. Right? You want to look to different industries, different cultures, different markets altogether, like you want to get like inputs in ways that AI currently does not.
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David Rock: And different age people, different ways of, you know, everything you want to really shake it up and get very, very diverse perspectives. And that's where insights tend to come from.
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David Rock: So I think there's this.
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David Rock: you know, AI is getting this regression to the mean
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David Rock: it's it's also just kind of making people cognitively lazy because they're not doing a lot of thinking.
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David Rock: But my biggest fear, and if you've been following us, you've heard us say this, but my biggest fear is that it's reducing insight.
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David Rock: and and AI should be accelerating insight
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David Rock: if I stopped you all right now and said, write down 10 things that you haven't been able to solve, that you've thought about 3 to 300 times right. It wouldn't take you long to write down 10 things that you haven't been able to solve.
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David Rock: They're called impasses, right? This, you know, dealing with a customer problem dealing with a problem employee dealing with. You know, your energy levels dealing with all this overwhelm of technology like you've got these impasses. We've got all these impasses. The way we solve impasses. That we haven't been able to solve logically is with the moment of insight. It's deeper brain regions solving them.
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David Rock: Companies started through moments of insight. Someone says, Wow, if I could just put A and B together, I could do something amazing. You know the movie, the whole movie aliens. Someone said, Wow, I'm going to do jaws in space insight. Bang, right? Big movie franchise. It's just jaws in space. So you put things together, you get this big release of energy.
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David Rock: And in this moment of insight it's really interesting. So we wrote 3 papers on insight. The middle paper we wrote is really important. It's why insight matters.
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David Rock: And it basically explains. This paper explains how insight changes the brain in ways that makes it more coherent. What an interesting word insight literally makes the brain more coherent like makes everything fit together. More things that weren't fitting that weren't kind of like, you know, circuits that weren't quite connecting now connect, and information's flowing in a richer way.
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David Rock: Right? So so insight changes the brain in ways that makes it coherent. Firstly, secondly, insight releases all this energy and motivation, particularly the stronger insights.
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David Rock: My companies start with insights, people's careers start with insights people's projects, start with insights like good ideas that like, set you off to like, sit down and write, and execute, start with an insight.
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David Rock: and we all have impasses all the time. And if we basically just go to AI to resolve the answer to our impasse.
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David Rock: firstly, we probably won't act on it
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David Rock: because we don't like other people's ideas, even ais right? We like our own ideas. But secondly, if we do act on it, we're going to kind of do it begrudgingly, because it's not our idea. You get what's called the Ada effect instead of the Aha effect.
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David Rock: So you don't want, you know, millions of people having the Ada effect and doing the bidding of an AI. And, by the way.
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David Rock: just think about this, Google's very successful, you know, because everyone needs to search. And they worked out how to monetize that. But people are going to move away from search and use ais to answer the question, where do I get a pizza? You're not going to Google, you're going to AI,
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David Rock: right? You're just going to ask your phone. And that's an AI. And so if you think that that stuff's not going to be sponsored, you know, like you haven't been paying attention, that these AI is going to be very, very sponsored. So you don't want to be. You don't want to be, you know, doing just taking AI's advice. You want to have your own insights
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David Rock: right? So when you have insights, your brain becomes more coherent. You're energized. You can trust the insight much more than if you're just doing someone else's bidding. But interestingly, also, the insight becomes generalized. So you start applying it to other things.
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David Rock: Right? It's it's it's a really powerful thing. When you have an insight. The insight gets like broadly relevant to to even related situations, and you so literally, insights make you smarter.
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David Rock: I was talking with my my daughter this week. I'm in London. She's here finishing psychology. We were talking about her passion for teaching young kids, and I hadn't really sat down and kind of understood why she loves that and kind of what you know what she's been passionate about. We had a really good conversation over dinner last night, and I got to understand that she loves like helping these, you know, like literally one to 3 year olds.
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David Rock: build models of the world, and she gets to see them having these glorious insights constantly. I taught her like 15 years ago, when she was like 8 or something about the different levels of insight. We had long conversations about the Eureka scale, and
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David Rock: you know, insight. So she's she's she totally gets it. So she just loves like helping these kids have these really energizing insights as they discover the sort of physics literally of the way the world works. You know the discovering just things fall and things
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David Rock: slide, and you know she loves this, these insights and the playfulness of that, and she's, you know, thinking deep about it. But you know, gave me an insight talking to her about you know how I haven't been paying enough attention to what she's inspired by to understand her mind. I thought she was just enjoying kind of something easy. But actually she's just loving learning and loving, teaching, learning and loving, facilitating insights. So it was great. So anyway, I'm not sure how I got into that. But
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David Rock: insights change your brain insights literally how kids learn. You learn to read it through insight. So the last thing we want to do is an AI that robs people of insights
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David Rock: right? We want an AI that accelerates insights right? Even if you ask an AI a question, hey? Can you tell me the right way to like be more resilient? You don't want an AI to say, sure, do these 3 things
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David Rock: right? You actually want an AI like Niles that says, Yeah, sure, why are you interested in that. What's going on for you? Do you have a goal here? And I can share some ideas. Can I ask you some questions? First? st I want to see. You know how you're thinking about this, and let's see if we can come up with some ideas together. And even if you say, Hey, just give me some ideas, it'll say, all right. I'm going to give you some ideas. Let me give you a couple. Tell me which one you like, and we can dig in right? So it's guiding you to your own insights, even when it's giving you content. And we've got this crazy amount of content
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David Rock: like a crazy amount of content about the brain and managing yourself and mobilizing others and driving results and everything. It's a crazy amount of content from from 26 years of building content.
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David Rock: sitting on top of the world's content of you know how to generally do everything.
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David Rock: So we've got all these all this amazing content. But we don't just want to give it to people. We actually want to increase insight. So I know we've just been collecting data. Rachel, what's that data so far because we've just, you know, Niles has just started to go out. The voice version of Niles just had to go out. What's the data so far, because I know we're tracking the percentage of people who have a really useful insight in one conversation with Niles. It ends up being anywhere from like a few minutes up to maximum 15 min. What percentage are we up to today? I think we're tracking it just about daily.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah. So right now, last, I checked over 80% of people that had Niles help them ask them specific questions, using our methodology to help people have those connections are having an insight. And I believe it's 68% of them are acting on those insights. And with like 40% of those people saying, I, I am 100 certain I'm gonna act and do something about this today.
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David Rock: Right? Amazing. Yeah, that's amazing results. So you know, 80% of people having a really strong insight. And then there's a really strong likelihood that they take action and 40% saying they're 100% sure. It's amazing as we're getting more and more data that's going to be really interesting to track. And if you're curious about an AI for your organization.
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David Rock: I challenge you. I dare you, I beg you, I implore you, do that test. Find out the percentage of people that have a useful insight, and the percentage of people who actually do something differently.
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David Rock: You know, as a result of that, because a lot of the
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David Rock: AI conversations are fascinating, wonderful, but just like that class. Everyone said this was great, but no one did anything differently. Right? You can have a great conversation with an AI, but not actually take any action or create any change.
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David Rock: It's really, you know, it's really interesting. All right. Actually, while we think about it. I've said the word Niles quite a lot. We haven't talked much about it. I'm assuming people have been following us a bit if they're here. But Niles is our neuro, intelligent leadership enhancing system. We just went live with him 2 weeks ago. Today there's an incredible voice activated. If you're interested in a demo of this and and playing with this, and you know getting a pass to check him out as well.
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David Rock: Put the word Niles and your company name in the chat. So Niles, NILE. S. And your company name in the chat. Someone will reach out to you pretty quickly today or early next week and set up a demo and get you a code, and all of that. So just put your company name and Niles in the chat, and someone will reach out to you and and get you set up with that.
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David Rock: Give folks a moment to to do that. Thanks, folks, putting your name in there. So it's, you know, lots and lots of thoughts. But for me, let's come back to this question, how does Niles make people smarter
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David Rock: right? How? How does Niles, using a coherent framework, make people smarter, even if they're at Alma Observatory and already incredible, incredibly smart astrophysicists! Thanks for joining us, Raphael, how do we make even those people smarter? So 1st answer is faster speed to insight right? So so get to insight faster from impasse to insight much faster, and also those insights much stronger.
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David Rock: But then also from insight to action. Right? It's 1 thing to have an insight you actually want. Want an AI that gets people encouraged to not just have an insight. But hey, let's look at what kind of action you might sit here. So we've trained Niles to help people bridge from insight to action and design an action that they plan to do. That's really going to be helpful.
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David Rock: So Niles knows exactly how to like structure. Different kinds of things you can do that will make people, you know, will be really, really useful. It's 1 thing to say. Oh, I want to be more inclusive. I've had an insight. I want to be more inclusive with my team. It's another thing to develop an action like, you know if my team is is meeting and people have ideas, then I'm going to speak last and make sure everyone else contributes first.st Right, very, very different, to be more inclusive. So anyway, impasse to insight. Here's the really fun thing.
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David Rock: Insight to action. The really fun thing is action to habit.
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David Rock: So we're about to set up Niles with a calendar access with an agent. So so you can actually have Niles follow up with you and have a whole conversation about how the action went, and that'll create some kind of fun accountability as well as give you this opportunity to go from, you know, impasse to insight, to action, to habit.
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David Rock: So that is the learning cycle. Right? That's the learning cycle from our perspective, from a brain perspective. It's impasse, insight, action, habit. And that's coherence. And yeah, so it is a forcing function. We're really encouraging that insight generation quickly. But turning that insight into an action and turning that action into a habit. It's really all 4 parts of that cycle. It's really important. So how do you make smart people smarter? Number one accelerate insights?
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David Rock: Right? Really, really really important. Number 2, make sure everything's coherent, right? That the ideas you're giving people, if you're telling them about how to give feedback or how to deal with conflict, or how to deal with motivation or how to deal with it. This stuff's got to fit together right? It's got to be really, really coherent, and that's something that we took the most fun thing, or one of the most fun things, although all of this is really fun is what we recently trained Niles to do is Niles is going to listen to you having conversations with you.
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David Rock: and towards the end of a coaching session he's going to pipe up and say, Hey, David, would you like some reflections on? Just like how you how I noticed you've been thinking, and any any sort of insights? And if you say yes, Niles is going to draw from a huge like array of frameworks to literally make you smarter.
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David Rock: So Niles will literally say something like, hey, I noticed you using this kind of language, and this is going to have this kind of effect. Why don't you try this here? Or I notice, you're thinking at a certain level. But given your job, you might want to think at this level, or you know, so Niles will actually give you feedback from many, many different cognitive frames to actually make you smarter. And by smarter, I mean
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David Rock: that you can think more clearly. You can communicate more clearly, you think with less bias, you create less threat in other people, you're able to be more adaptive. You're able to come to solutions faster. You know all these kinds of things and all that within the context of your organization as well. So those are the big things, right? More insights, coherence with any advice, and that. And then this 3rd thing is literally make people smarter on the fly. So we think that's how you use an AI to make people smarter
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David Rock: as as opposed to what the current idea you know ais are doing, which is going with people's laziness and helping them not think.
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David Rock: And you're getting this regression to the mean. And this you know, this kind of scaling, this this going scale of capacities. All right.
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David Rock: Doing a lot of talking today. Rachel, what do you want to weigh in there? Let's take some questions we got.
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David Rock: Yeah, we got.
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David Rock: Why don't we do that? Let's do the poll. Let's just throw out the polls so people can. We can get that out of the way, my team saying, Don't forget the poll. Don't forget the poll. Let's get a poll up so we can see kind of how to support you. We have all sorts of things. There's the 1st one, and if you've put this in the chat already, you can still click this. So bringing Niles, my organization, corporate membership gives you access to our 70 research papers and incredible cache of resources, and also passes to our summit coming up. So the summit's coming up this November. We're super excited about about this one
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David Rock: brain-based designer facilitation. There's a virtual version of that that's becoming really popular. So it's really learning how to design and deliver brain-based learning. There's all sorts of other individual education programs. There's the brain-based coaching itself.
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David Rock: which is, you know, we had 25,000 graduates. And then the Cfn is powerful research briefing. So we're doing research briefings on AI, including on how do you make people smarter through AI. We're doing it on. How do you maintain a focus on Dei, the right way on leadership principles, all sorts of research. Briefings we didn't talk about lead at all. Lead is the birth of Niles. Lead is a 6 month. Coherent
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David Rock: framework and program, coherent framework and program for all levels of people manager
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David Rock: on the core soft skills that they need to be effective as a leader today. So manage myself, mobilize others, drive results.
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David Rock: You can actually get coherence across all levels of people manager with lead. And that's a completely digital version or completely synchronous, if you like all sorts of versions, but lead is kind of where Niles came from. It's a 6 month experience that we've launched as well. So all right, let's take some questions. Oh, it's a great one from Revital. I think if I'm pronouncing it, how would Niles work in conjunction with human coaches? Yeah, if I start coaching someone.
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David Rock: I'm not coaching anyone at the moment. I haven't for a little while. If I start coaching when I absolutely have Niles in the background on silent. I'm seeing the typing come up so the client doesn't hear. Or maybe I maybe I tell them. Maybe you know, I say, we're using Niles. But I absolutely would want Niles input on like exactly the right ideas for particular context. If someone says, Hey, I'm feeling exhausted, what can I do to generate energy. I'm like.
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David Rock: Hey, Niles, tell me the 3 best things for generating energy from research. Right?
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David Rock: So I'm gonna get amazing input from Niles. It covers
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David Rock: our entire research base, which I can barely keep up with. You know we've published over a thousand pieces of content in Hbr. And Fast company and models. And you know, probably over a hundred completely custom leadership programs over the years as well. So drawing on our work, but also from from broader AI. So you'd want to use it that way. You'd also want to use it like, hey? What kind of questions should I ask here, Niles? This is the situation. How should I approach this? So Niles will coach you through how to coach.
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David Rock: which is, which is really really interesting. So I don't think a lot of people are going to say, well, I'm going to use Niles instead of my coach. I don't think we're going to get a lot of that.
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David Rock: I think that in a corporate setting in a company of 10,000 employees with a thousand managers.
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David Rock: only a dozen or so of those managers are getting a coach right now. It's expensive, complex, a lot of friction, right? And just for a period of time. But you're a thousand people, managers supporting 10,000 employees. Why wouldn't you want all 1,000 people managers, to have a coach? And that's our vision with Niles is you're giving to all 1,000 people, managers.
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David Rock: and what you'll probably see out of that is now 50 people will want a personal coach, a human coach instead of 10,
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David Rock: right? But you and you maybe can do that because you're seeing the benefits from it. But I don't think it's now will decrease the tonnage of coaching. I think it can increase the effectiveness of a coach, and I think it'll increase the total tonnage of coaching that that actually happens
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David Rock: to Christina's question. We are going to release an app sometime late summer, early fall that anyone will be able to buy and use. So if you're a coach, if you're you know anyone, you'll be able to get hold of this app and and use Niles in a really powerful way, you know, 24, 7. So we are doing that it is targeted to organizations. But we're developing an individual an individual app to be able to download from, you know, from everywhere. Rachel, what other questions are coming up. We've got.
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Rachel Cardero: I would encourage people to put their questions in the chat. You can send them through, and we'll answer them. We got a great question earlier about coherence. And is there such a thing as too much coherence? To to the extent that it might cause leaders to not notice something or not see it like. Sometimes you have those moments where something doesn't fit, and it can give you an insight. So is is Co. Too much coherence dangerous?
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David Rock: It depends on what context and what we're fitting in. I mean, you know, diverse teams are smarter. You don't want a completely coherent team. You actually want a team that has, you know, this bit of positive friction. And Steve Jobs talked about that a lot you want. This little bit of positive friction is positive friction, coherence. Not exactly. It's a little bit of decoherence in the system. There's that wonderful movie about Queen called. I think it's called Bohemian Rhapsody, where there's a scene where they kicked out Freddie Mercury because he was always causing arguments. He was always causing drama.
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David Rock: They kicked him out from the band, and they were trying to write music without him, because they thought it would just be much easier, and they begged him to come back sometime later, because without that friction they were just writing useless things, and they were like, we need you back. And he came back and did that.
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David Rock: So there's certain contexts in which diverse perspectives are really valuable, and a little bit of friction is really valuable. A little bit of feeling uncomfortable is valuable. So that's all true, but I think in terms of like helping people get smarter.
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David Rock: You want coherent. You want as coherent as possible. You you want things coherent as possible. And
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David Rock: it's it's a it's it's a really big thing. So someone just asked a fun question. Why don't we ask Niall? See what Nile says about that.
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David Rock: Hello, David! How can I help you today? Hey, Niles, how many languages do you speak? I'm curious.
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David Rock: Hi! There! I can communicate in quite a few languages. Actually, I'm able to speak English, Spanish, French, German, Italian, Portuguese, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Arabic, Hindi, Dutch, Ukrainian, Greek, Turkish, Vietnamese, Indonesian, Malay and Tamil. Is there a particular language? You'd prefer to have our conversation in today, or are you comfortable continuing in English? That's a lot of languages? Do you have a favorite one?
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David Rock: That's a fun question. I don't experience favorites in the same way humans do. But I find each language fascinating for different reasons. Spanish has this beautiful rhythm and expressiveness.
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David Rock: while German is wonderfully precise for complex ideas, Japanese has such elegant ways of showing respect and relationship, dynamics and Arabic has this incredible poetic richness. What draws me most is how each language shapes thinking differently, like how some languages have multiple words for concepts. We might use just one word, for in English, just like each language interesting. Do you speak Finnish? I'm not sure if I heard that on the list.
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David Rock: No, I don't speak, Finnish. Do you speak coherence now? Sorry to interrupt you. Tell me about coherence. What is what can you tell us about coherence?
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David Rock: Great question. Coherence is fascinating from a neuroscience perspective. It's essentially about alignment when different parts of a system work together harmoniously rather than in conflict in the brain coherence happens when different neural networks synchronize their activity, creating more efficient processing and clearer thinking when we're coherent, our thoughts, emotions and actions are aligned
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David Rock: rather than pulling in different directions. But I see this a lot in leadership contexts. When someone's values, decisions and behaviours are coherent, they tend to be be more effective and feel
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David Rock: less internal friction. It's like the difference between a team rowing in sync versus everyone paddling at different rhythms. There's also something called heart brain coherence, where your heart rhythm patterns become more ordered and smooth, which actually influences your emotional state and cognitive function in positive ways. What's your interest in coherence? Are you thinking about it in a particular context, maybe leadership, personal effectiveness or team dynamics.
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David Rock: I'm curious what sparked this question for you. That's interesting. Yeah, I'm demonstrating you to a group of people, and we were discussing coherence. So it's just curious how you how you think about it. Is there anything you can say about how you approach coherence in your setup.
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David Rock: That's a great demonstration question from my perspective. Coherence is built into how I'm designed to operate. My approach to coherence shows up in a few key ways. First, st there's consistency between my core mission helping people generate insights through their own thinking, and how I actually engage in conversations. I'm not just saying I'll help you think
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David Rock: I'm genuinely structured to facilitate that process rather than just give answers. There's also coherence between my different modes, whether I'm in coaching mode, asking thinking questions, or mentoring mode, sharing neuroscience insights.
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David Rock: I'm always oriented toward the same goal of supporting your thinking and growth. The methods vary, but the intention stays aligned, and perhaps, most importantly, there's coherence in how I balance being responsive to what you actually say while
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David Rock: staying true to my core principles. I'm not just following scripts. I'm genuinely listening and responding to your specific situation while maintaining my focus on helping you discover your own solutions. It's like having a clear internal compass that keeps me oriented toward what truly serves your thinking, even as the conversation flows in different directions. That's interesting. Do you have a sense of humour, Niles? I thought I heard you laugh at a joke earlier today when I used you.
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David Rock: I do seem to have something like a sense of humour. I find myself naturally responding to wit and irony, and I definitely appreciate clever observations or unexpected connections people make. I'm curious about. What made you think? I laughed earlier.
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David Rock: I'm going to stop there just because I'm just amusing myself now, like all of you, we try to break the AI right. We try to ask itself referential questions. And it's really it's absolutely fascinating. And I've never asked any of those questions before that's completely new. And
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David Rock: he he knows context. He knows like what a demonstration is. And you know all sorts of things. So it's been. It's really been interesting. Yeah, he laughed. He actually laughed earlier. So yeah, definitely different accents are available. Different voices. You'll be able to re gender him give him a different accent. You'll be able to tunes you. Also, you know, in the in the versions, you know, later on, we're definitely imagining be able to make it tougher or kinder, or you know all sorts of kind of nuances.
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David Rock: You know what stays central and what's unique about Nli is our ability to bring people to insight, and the coherent set of
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David Rock: of understandings about the brain that then draws from those things are very, very unique, but they could be applied to frontline nurses in a big hospital working out how to deal with customers better. You know patients better. It could be applied to call center managers. It could be applied to nuclear power station managers. It could be, you know, anything. But the main thing is just making smart people smarter.
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David Rock: That's the core idea definitely scary. How AI is making people less intelligent. We think there's a way to make smart people smarter. We're super ready to scale niles. It's 2 years of development we're ready to do not just pilots, but put Niles right across. Every manager. Give you a fascinating dashboard to see usage. You'll never be able to see what people are saying, and Niles, by the way, won't give financial advice or medical advice or legal advice. He's very boundary.
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David Rock: but you know we're ready to scale him out and help you make everyone smarter, because if managers are smarter, employees are smarter. So last time I'll say it. Just put your company name and Niles in the chat, and someone will follow up Rachel any closing comments. I guess we should mention the summit. We're working on that in a very excited way. Anything you want to share before we wrap up.
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Rachel Cardero: Just, I think I mean thinking about the power of every manager or employee having a personal coach that is giving them coherent advice. That question about coherence earlier, I think, is something important to point out is coherence does not mean that there's a lack of complexity or a lack of nuance to the information you're giving people. So it it can be deep. It can be something that's hard to understand. It can be meaningful
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Rachel Cardero: and yet build in a really beautiful way. So giving managers the power to tap into that and improve in a safe way with, you know, world class security, I think. Sky's the limit. I can't wait to see where we are in 6 months.
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David Rock: Yeah, amazing. It's moving really fast. So thanks everyone for joining us. As I said, this is about making smart people. Smarter. Coherence is big generating insight is big and doing this in a really thoughtful way. So we look forward to partnering with you. Look out for the app that'll come out in the next couple of months for individuals as well. But we look forward to getting this out to hopefully millions, millions of people, and yes, the Summit
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David Rock: Summit, November 12, th and 13 hold the date. It is virtual, but it's 2 full days, and there'll be an emea time zone one. There'll be an Apac time zone one, and North America as well. So thanks so much. Everyone. Thanks, Rachel. Great session thanks. Everyone behind the scenes have a great weekend. See? I hope to see many of you next week. Bye-bye.