Performance management is back at the top of the priority list for organizations, and for good reason. The steady state of the hybrid workplace demands new strategies and approaches. How can we effectively manage performance when employees aren't always physically present? What adjustments need to be made to ensure optimal performance management in this new environment? In addition, the calls for accountability and psychological safety in the workplace have only gotten louder. Balancing these critical aspects with effective performance management is a challenge that organizations must address. On this week's episode of Your Brain at Work Live!, join Dr. Emma Sarro and Rachel Cardero to learn how to navigate the complexities of performance management in the evolving workplace.
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Shelby Wilburn: Welcome back to another week of your brain at work. Live! I'm your host, Shelby Wilburn. By regulars we're happy to have you back, and for our newcomers. We're excited to have you here with us today. For the first time in this episode, we're exploring how to navigate the complexities of performance management in an evolving workplace. Now, as I quickly share, some housekeeping notes, drop in the comments or chat box where you're joining in from.
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Shelby Wilburn: We are recording today's session. So if you're interested in a replay, be on the lookout for an email later today, that email is also going to include a survey for feedback as well as a number of resources that are aligned with today's conversation. We suggest putting your phone on. Do not disturb quitting out of your email and messaging apps. So you can really get the most out of today's show. And it's also going to help with your audio and video quality. And we love interaction, so feel free to share your thoughts and comments with us in the chat. Now, to get this show underway, I'm going to introduce our speakers. For today.
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Shelby Wilburn: Our guest for today is vice president of product and advisory at the Neuro Leadership Institute. She brings decades of customer focus, cross industry, consulting experience to analyze product development and expansive range of professional services. She works closely with our largest clients at the strategy level to design custom, brand-based strategies. Her work has been instrumental to analyze research on organizational growth, mindset culture and leadership.
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Shelby Wilburn: She's the author of our seminal research on brain friendly leadership and organizational growth mindset. She holds degree in cognitive neuroscience from Columbia University in New York and multiple professional certifications. A warm welcome to the vice President of product and advisory at the Neuro Leadership Institute, Rachel Cardiro. Rachel. Thanks for being here.
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Rachel Cardero: Thanks so much, Shelby, so excited to see you all in the chat. See Tennessee, Phoenix, California, and so many other places.
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Shelby Wilburn: Nice
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Shelby Wilburn: and our moderator for today leads the research team at the Neuro Leadership Institute, where she focuses on translating cognitive and social neuroscience into actionable solutions for organizations as well as helps to communicate relevant research in an accessible manner for the public.
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Shelby Wilburn: Previously she was a professor at Dominican College and New York University, and a researcher at the Nathan Klein Institute. She holds a bachelor's degree from Brown University and a Phd. In neuroscience from New York University a warm welcome to the Senior Director of Research at Nli. Dr. Emma Saro. Thanks for being here to Emma, and I'll pass it over to you.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Thanks, Shelby. Hi, Rachel! So excited to be here with you. I think it's our first one together right.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, first, one.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, so welcome. All this is an exciting one to have. We've been meaning to have this discussion for a few weeks. Knowing that this topic has been kind of creeping up towards the top of organization's priority list. And we know this. And for anyone who is with us last week. I think we talked about this Stat as well. But latest really profound stat coming out of Gallup.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Basically, that showed that only 2% of Chros from the fortune. 500 companies really strongly agree that their performance management systems inspires their employees to improve
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Dr. Emma Sarro: and it's not just the Chros, also the employees. They feel the same. Only one in 5 of them report that their performance reviews are transparent, fair, and even inspire better performance. I'd love to hear from you all if you feel the same thing. We love interaction in the chat as well, so does this resonate with you do you feel the same? We also found in our own recent last year Summit. We pulled
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Dr. Emma Sarro: organizations and found that up to 90% of the organizations are planning to make or have recently made changes to their performance management. So why is this happening? We could cover a whole realm of reasons why this could be happening, but one of them could just be the steady state of this hybrid workplace. You know. How do we best manage performance when people aren't always in the same place and aren't always working together and and seen
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Dr. Emma Sarro: by managers what needs to change. And also, we've talked about this before as well. The calls for accountability and psychological safety. Both are being asked for. The calls have only gotten louder. But how do we truly manage performance, asking for more accountability while maintaining high levels of psychological safety.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: So that's the current state love to hear your thoughts about. You know how you feel your organization is doing with performance management, and and what you think needs to be changed. But this is where I want to bring Rachel in. So, Rachel, given your years of experience. So what would you say? Are the keys to changing the course of performance management?
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, it's such a great question. And I'm seeing amazing things in the chat right now, like Mariana saying, I've never heard performance management and inspire, used together in a sentence. And I think that that's a great phrase. To sum up, I think, how we've been experiencing performance management definitely what I'm seeing from our clients, you know, for those of you that might be a little newer to Nli or our performance practice.
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Rachel Cardero: This is a place where we've really tried to lean in over the years we have over 35 academic journals that are peer reviewed. We have over a hundred 50 different thought leader publications. And in this space, specifically, we have an average
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Rachel Cardero: behavior change percentage of about 90%. And so we've we really are passionate about performance and performance management. And I think that this came from a place of us asking ourselves, How can we help people be better at work?
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Rachel Cardero: And when you start to think about that? How can people get better at work performance management is just that one of this like glaring areas where it's like a as one of our audience. Members said, right like it's inspiration, motivation, and great feelings don't often go together. What I'm seeing right now, though, is quite interesting. Like, we're in this period where everybody's talking about how much change they're experiencing
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Rachel Cardero: buca environments, technological change, cultural change.
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Rachel Cardero: Honestly, all of the social changes that we're experiencing on a day to day basis, additional polarization, etc, hybrid workplaces, all the things that you mentioned and what we're seeing from a performance standpoint is, people are actually starting to go backwards
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Rachel Cardero: and look for structures that feel familiar, that feel common to them, even if they know they don't work. And so they're saying, you know, in this hybrid work environment, let me actually go back to the you know the stick and not the carrot. And because I know it. And if I have to deal with all this change, let me just eliminate this one thing, but I mean it. It's just not working as your as the data shows.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, absolutely. So, so what you know, we we often talk about things like, you know, clarifying expectations. These are things that we we should include in performance management. If if we have them, how do we do that? And you know, clarify expectations, how do we? How do we truly motivate individuals, because you won't get your best work out of individuals unless you truly inspire and motivate them, really getting into their intrinsic motivators? And how do you maintain that over time?
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Dr. Emma Sarro: And I think one of the ways, and we'll get into this later on. But one of the ways that you can kind of tap into all of those is to really choose and develop the right conversations. And we are masters of conversations at Ni.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, yeah, definitely, we love to think and talk about ourselves as conversation architects, a lot of the time. And when I'd love that, you're mentioning the accountability piece and like actually tapping into people's motivation. You know, we know from
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Rachel Cardero: a science perspective. If you have people in that threat state, if you have them worried they are less creative, they are less collaborative. They are less able to engage in rational thought, good decision making. And so for over 26 years. At this point I think we have been trying to help people
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Rachel Cardero: figure out how to move people specifically throughout the performance management process out of a state of unmanageable threat to a place of manageable threat, because it's hard with performance to take all the thread out of it. But I think that exactly what you mentioned are those keys to the process and to the cycle.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah.
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Rachel Cardero: So one
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Rachel Cardero: just to reiterate some of the things that you mentioned.
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Rachel Cardero: If you can really help people understand in a way that is inspiring and feels light and motivating. Right? So this, that growth, type of accountability, what is expected of them? Clarity of expectations are key and tying that to the overall objectives of your performance, management, cycle, or process. What are you actually trying to get out of it?
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Rachel Cardero: How do you hold people accountable for growth, for improvement, for learning.
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Rachel Cardero: And then those conversations super key. Those conversations are what make feedback palatable, enjoyable sometimes for some people.
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Rachel Cardero: But that's what gives people those moments of insight and those flashes of Oh, shoot! I need to act differently now.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, absolutely. Because I think one of the things. And and for many of us we know that performance reviews are might be around the corner. They're coming up. So this is top of mind, you know. What kind of model do you use when you do your performance reviews? Do you still do performance reviews. I know there are some. Some of our guests have removed them altogether, and I'd love to know if this is if this is working, but there has to be some kind of review. It's a form of feedback. So how do you do that and maintain that human connection?
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Right? Because it's very easy to swing in one direction. Make it easy in in one sense, because it's very transactional, and you provide like a number to an individual, and that gives you the result. But where's the human in that? And how do you expect there to be any kind of performance improvement following.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think, like, when we work with organizations to help them adjust their processes, we're working with a large number of organizations. There are tons of people right now. And I I would love to see in the chat. Yeah, like, as Emma said, you know, share with us where you are. Are you all working on an update? Are you seeing changes in your system?
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Rachel Cardero: So we're seeing a large number of companies trying to refresh their current process.
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Rachel Cardero: And they're asking themselves, how can we make this less of a burden? How can we make it more engaging? And I think a lot of it does come down to those conversations. And so.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah.
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Rachel Cardero: Start all of our processes asking organizations going back to those objectives. How? What do you want to achieve through this.
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Rachel Cardero: And then you can help create this really positive sense of accountability around those objectives. Do you want growth, as I've mentioned? Do you want learning. Do you want high performance? We're getting a lot of high performance organizations where you know you're treating
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Rachel Cardero: how people show up at work almost like a an Olympic athlete. Right? Are you getting coaching? Are you watching yourself? Are you constantly improving? Are you stretching yourself every day when you get those targets. When you get that built into the system, then our approach really centers on those conversations.
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Rachel Cardero: So you can actually break down your conversation architecture into the critical conversations that you need to have. And you can help managers understand exactly what to do in those conversations, what to do, less of and what to do more of, so that this way, even when conversations get smooshed together, even when conversations might happen out of order, they have the tools and the skills to really help people drive their own performance and have those more
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Rachel Cardero: and
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Rachel Cardero: so with goal setting, you know. Are you stretching yourself? What matters to you? Are these goals manageable, or have you created 20 or 50 of them, you know, with your check ins. Are you continuing to keep yourself accountable to that growth, to that learning, to that high performance? And there's an art and a science to all of this, to each one of those conversations that we think is really important.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah. And so I'd love to back up just a little bit. Because I think you know, a lot of people have been doing a lot of work, and it seems like they've been making progress over time on their performance management systems. And we love to talk about how we understand the brain and and how to really get individuals to kind of build new habits and and really tap into the core models of the brain to get them to perform at their best.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: so what is it about the brain that helped us kind of build our own talent, performance, management, field and practice, because we've been building it for 25 years.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, yeah, I think it for me, at least definitely, this place of looking at the literature. I think. Like, when you talk to different scientists.
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Rachel Cardero: Some of these insights are clear as day for them, right where it's like, hey? If you encourage a certain type of mindset, these are the outcomes. You get right, less receptive to feedback, less able to learn. When you put people in a thread state, this is what happens. They are less able to collaborate, less able to perform. When you do. X, you get y and when you're close to the science, and then you see how little application there is, and.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Poor!
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Rachel Cardero: Or in day to day. Life it's almost painful.
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Rachel Cardero: And so we've done a lot of research on that threat and reward state in the brain.
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Rachel Cardero: while also looking at the key elements or categories that drive human motivation. And then thinking about, okay, well, then, how do we weave that into a performance cycle.
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Rachel Cardero: And all of that research helped us. See a couple of things. One is that we frequently talk about those critical conversations that need to happen in a cycle. And so we've broken them down into 6 critical conversations or conversation types that we wanna prepare managers to have.
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Rachel Cardero: There's goal setting conversations, check in conversations, feedback conversations, career conversations end of your conversations and compensation discussions. And then, if you can teach a manager how to manage the brain based dynamics in each one of those types of conversations.
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Rachel Cardero: whether they happen separately or whether they, you know, in real time, when we're communicating get pushed together. A manager can learn and know exactly how, in goal setting to manage cognitive capacity and say, Hey, instead of 50 things, let's really help you prioritize instead of talking about being the best and potentially triggering, fixed mindset, talking about
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Rachel Cardero: pushing, learning and development and incremental mastery of different topics, or, you know, goals
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Rachel Cardero: in feedback. You can encourage people to ask for feedback
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Rachel Cardero: which we know based on our research happens down that threat response. So definitely very critical. And again.
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Rachel Cardero: those 6 conversation types that we build our conversation architecture around and that we love. It's really important to train people on how to understand the dynamics of these unique conversation types is their goal, setting
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Rachel Cardero: a check in conversation. Feedback. Oh, there you go, feedback career.
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Rachel Cardero: comp and end of year. Oh, I missed one there.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Go.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: It's hard to keep track of them all.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: I think in. And I mean one of the reasons why they're so useful is that we are also reducing the load on the manager, I mean as a manager going into these conversations, especially for new managers. And this brings up a whole other conversation that we've been having about developing leaders and managers. But it's a hard conversation to enter, and as we've shown several times over, sometimes those conversations are just as if not more stress, inducing
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Dr. Emma Sarro: and overwhelming for the manager to have, especially if they end up being difficult conversations. And so giving them just the ease. The structure of you know this is the way you enter a checking conversation. And it's just an easy flip of some wording around. So you kind of reduce the the overarching threat of the other individual. And then you have a more productive conversation, and we've shown that with these
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Dr. Emma Sarro: kinds of conversations, especially the feedback conversations, if it's done well. The work afterwards is even is even better. It's more efficient. You solve problems better. All of those things happen. So you're opening up the world to having better collaboration if you just have the right conversation. So it just makes it easier. And and having those 6
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Dr. Emma Sarro: distinct conversations laid out, and the tools that we can provide laid out. It just makes the whole the whole experience much easier to enter. And then you can focus on the actual work.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, yeah, I think a really important part of that is also when you're designing your system or redesigning your process, it's important to think about those conversation types as you think about the overall architecture of the system. But to help it, be really automatic, really seamless for managers.
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Rachel Cardero: you can make it so easy for them. You can make it so so easy. How do you set those expectations? How do you create clarity and accountability? And you can give them the answer for goal setting. How do you stretch and inspire? And then, in the conversations like, manage that thread state.
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Rachel Cardero: bring people into that sense of manageable thread of reward even, and get them thinking more critically. So you can make it super automatic where managers know the 3 most important questions to ask to drive those objectives or those outcomes, and then they know exactly what to say. And it's really helpful, I think, in this process, something we've learned through our researches.
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Rachel Cardero: any type of mental contrasting you can provide super super helpful cause, you know, I mean, when you tell people well like make it manageable. Everybody says, Why do that? And it's not
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Rachel Cardero: you show them like, Okay, well, you're gonna be tempted to say, you know, we don't really need to talk so much. You're a great performer. Why don't we just end early? And you have that moment to yourself where you're like? Oh, shoot! I do say that. And instead, like, say, Okay, if you really want to inspire and motivate somebody, then you need to say, Hey, I'm here for you. I'm here to help you learn and grow. I want to see what you've done, and I'm I'm committed to your success overall.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, absolutely showing up for them as well. So we have. We're getting so much in the chat. We really appreciate all this. It's hard to even keep track. But we have a great question. From Mary Ann, and this is this is a good one for any manager who has a lot of individuals direct reports under them. It becomes a challenge when a manager has more than 20 individuals reporting to them. Is there a technique or a model, or a way to make this just less burdensome.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, that is incredibly difficult. Yeah.
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Rachel Cardero: And we see that. I mean, this is so commonplace and retail environments on a plan floor or a shop floor, where you have even the added dynamic of shift work. And like you're working with not just one manager but your shift manager. There are a couple of things that you can do. So again, if you give your managers and your employees that understanding of what makes a successful conversation.
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Rachel Cardero: and you really lean into feedback. That's a place where, in those environments where you have 20 plus direct reports, you can set up these almost automatic ways for people to receive more continuous feedback throughout the workday. And not only that, but you teach employees to help each other with feedback. So it's not all just the manager helping 20 individuals. It might be a team of 20 or 21 helping each other.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah. And so
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Rachel Cardero: in this example, teaching people to ask for feedback, which is our method. It's been our method, for I I feel like we're coming up on. We'll be at the 10 year mark soon. I think it was 2,016 or 17, you know, launched our ask for feedback approach.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah.
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Rachel Cardero: And in all the organizations that we've helped train with our improve program, where we're teaching them how to ask what makes good feedback, even also how to give unsolicited feedback, which is necessary. A lot of the time.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Should be.
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Rachel Cardero: If you teach people to ask for feedback, and you give them the clarity of those expectations, what am I holding you accountable for?
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Rachel Cardero: Then people can start to see that. And you can either work on team, level feedback. You can encourage people to ask for feedback with each other.
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Rachel Cardero: and that really helps lighten the load for those managers.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, absolutely. And you can imagine if you if you develop this culture of feedback, then all of those other conversations are going to be easier because you've maintained their momentum to a level where it's not waving up and down. They're expecting you to check in on them. And they've likely been able to approach their goals at more of a steady or state, so that there won't be as many of those performance gap conversations.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah.
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Rachel Cardero: yeah, absolutely. And I, I have a question for you, Emma, like, what do you see? Coming up from a research perspective like with what our clients are asking. Cause. I mean, we're hearing so much about accountability, about growth mindset. You know what's coming up for you.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, great question, I mean, I think, you know, and a lot of this is coming up in the chat as well. I think all of the change is making it very uncertain about how we're supposed to get to this level of high performance. And so we're getting this. And you mentioned this earlier, this.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: this request for everyone needs to have high performance. But what is that? It's it's absolutely going to look different, depending on the organization and how it's measured and how you get there is going to be different as well, depending on how the teams are built, and you know what roles are being played on the team, but that goal of high performance, and then adding in the factors of a hybrid workplace. And this need for accountability. So we're we're trying to kind of understand.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Understand all of these. And and this is also coming up a bit in in the chat. But the the idea that every organization is different and every performance management system is going to be Kate. It should be catered to the organization. So if you were to say, let's just get rid of performance reviews altogether that may work for some organizations depending on their organizational goals and their business goals. But
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Dr. Emma Sarro: what about those organizations that really need to have those performance reviews. They need to be able to track their employees in some way.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, absolutely. You know, we
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Rachel Cardero: have done so much research on whether it be feedback or managing threat in different performance conversations, something that, I think just comes up year after year. Is those really, really, really, really focused outcomes on growth.
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Rachel Cardero: inspiration and clarity.
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Rachel Cardero: And when you design your system overall. I mean, it can be a filter for any of you that are working towards a performance management revamp. You're in the beginning or the end. Looking through your process and actually taking inventory of.
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Rachel Cardero: do these steps?
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Rachel Cardero: Does this documentation help people focus on growth?
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Rachel Cardero: Does what I've designed help create a culture of accountability, so that people can do more and feel good about what they're doing, instead of actually hindering their their thoughts and their emotions and their creative problem solving. And then, as a result of the process, the system, the steps.
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Rachel Cardero: Are people walking away, getting the clarity that they need, and feeling inspired enough to go do something, and that sounds very simple. But when you actually start to look at your process through the lens of that filter or those filters, a lot of it becomes very clear. Right?
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Rachel Cardero: We have people setting
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Rachel Cardero: 50 different goals, 20 different goals, 10 different goals. Even we have them focusing on what they can achieve instead of what will help them grow. We help them create these exhaustive lists that are almost to do lists. And that's what they're incur like, those are easy places where you can say, am I getting growth out of my folks? Are they really stretching themselves? And if not, then what is gonna be the most important thing to help them grow.
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Rachel Cardero: And so like in those goal setting conversations, using that growth, mindset language, encouraging people to stretch themselves a natural part of performance, sharing just even the language and the expectations right, that accountability, the positive accountability that
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Rachel Cardero: as an organization you are accountable to grow as an individual, to improve your performance, to be the best version of yourself through an active process with your manager, with the organization
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Rachel Cardero: versus
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Rachel Cardero: deliver as much as possible, and give that list like I myself has have had performance reviews, or I remember preparing before them.
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Rachel Cardero: literally sitting down and writing out every single thing I had done that year. Every, I was just like, okay. I wrote this this process, and I did the every single thing done the year so that I could come with justification, most of it unimportant. But I wanted this to be as long as possible, not as meaningful as possible.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Area.
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Rachel Cardero: That's where you really want to flip things on their head.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, right? And align with the organizational goals, I mean. So how can you? I mean? And and we know from the idea of of aligning individuals to a shared set of goals. They're they're more likely to lean in. And so all of those pieces of intrinsic motivation. So I have a question for you about 1. One of the things that organizations are facing now is just this, the generational differences?
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Right? So we have different ways now to then motivate different generations and and uncertainty around how to even work with the different generations. I mean, so these are a huge challenges for organizations. So how do you, you know, manage the performance management process to adapt to each generation.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, that is a really interesting question. Cause we are hearing a lot about you.
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Rachel Cardero: First time we're having 5 generations.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah.
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Rachel Cardero: In the workplace working together. And I, you know, it's so interesting. We actually spend a lot of time at work like thinking about.
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Rachel Cardero: how do we communicate to others? How do I give this feedback? How do I have a performance review given this person's personality, this situation? And so I have 2 answers to that is, one is kind of a longer term answer, which is.
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Rachel Cardero: there are some basic principles of how we run right? I get analy. We're always talking about the brains organizing principle like everything you do. Your brain is saying, is this a threat, or is this something I want to engage in.
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Rachel Cardero: All of the time you're making that judgment call.
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Rachel Cardero: and that is a universal truth across generations. Figuring out the nuance of how to manage that it like again, another universal truth. There are 5 domains of social motivation. So anytime that we work with organizations to either improve their performance practices or their process or train managers. So manager capability work is essential to any type of change with performance management.
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Rachel Cardero: And we've been helping managers for I mean 26 years improve the quality of their conversations. That is one of our biggest breakthroughs long while back. But our connect program was is. And I think that's again, 90% behavior change. We see in folks that go through that 90% of people having
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Rachel Cardero: better performance conversations that create insight, growth, mindset and accountability our improve program where we have people asking for feedback. Where again, we're getting really high behavior change numbers.
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Rachel Cardero: our develop program for career conversation. So really leaning into helping people have those conversations using those universal truths. I think that is kind of the long term way to bolster your organization.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah.
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Rachel Cardero: I would say the short term way. Maybe this is the the funner, or maybe the the cheek your way. We've been seeing people play with AI recently.
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Rachel Cardero: And so even with our own AI tool, I've heard a lot. I mean, so many people are using our Niles tool right now for performance issues.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah.
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Rachel Cardero: They're typing into Niles, which are is our AI leadership coach. Or, you know, neuro leadership.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: So intelligent.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, no intelligent. And they're literally typing in. Hey? I have a performance conversation.
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Rachel Cardero: Help me
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Rachel Cardero: write a text message about it which might be for your agend person where that's something that you do on your team. I have other people that are saying, Hey, actually, let me help me write a long email about this to meet this person's communication style.
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Rachel Cardero: Hey? I'm walking into this conversation with somebody who's really stuck in their ways, and I'm anxious about how to give feedback. And then you have these AI tools that can either role play with you in the moment
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Rachel Cardero: or give you an answer that is tailored for that generation. When you put that criteria into the prompt when you say, Hey, I'm talking to somebody who's been telling me they want more purpose at work. They wanna feel connected to what? To our mission as an organization. How can I help this person
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Rachel Cardero: see more value in the administrative work that they have to do, because not everything can be bells and whistles. We all have to do administrative work. How do I give that feedback?
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Rachel Cardero: And alright, like a finely tuned AI tool geared towards leaders can give you that immediate answer.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah. Oh, I love both of those answers. I mean, I think we've all been using Niles a lot. And it's amazing how much Niles is able to really answer exactly what we need. In the moment.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: but but also I completely agree with your first answer. I think that like at at our core? Just because we come from a different generation, we are intrinsically motivated to improve ourselves. And we have a set of values that we and and a and an ideal set of self that we wanna approach, and a way to really like boost our motivation towards our goals. And I think if
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Dr. Emma Sarro: if we're able to access that, and it might just be trying to understand the best way to communicate that to individuals. So maybe it's a text message as opposed to an email. Maybe it's, you know, trying to figure out the best way these individuals work.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: you know to to get their their work done and reach their goals. And so I think there, it might just mean that managers, you know, should look for other opportunities to to reach those employees. And it's just another obstacle that we that we're facing.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, yeah, sometimes those generational differences. I mean, there, there is difference in our lived experience across the board, even outside of generations. But there's there's so much I hear like what you're saying is so powerful. Cause, even like this perception of in group out group.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: We're different
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Rachel Cardero: Not really working on the same thing. It it creates, it can be divisive, and it create this unnecessary friction. In these conversations.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Can.
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Rachel Cardero: And so and we have like in our conversation architecture. We teach people to work in ways that does not create a sense of out group, so like, even just as simply as starting a conversation with a shared goal.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Hmm.
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Rachel Cardero: Dang.
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Rachel Cardero: we are both here because we care about X, and in a performance context that can be the employee. It can be like, hey, we're both here because we want you to grow and develop as quickly as possible. We're both here to look at what you've achieved in the year, and I wanna help you grow. I know you wanna grow. I wanna help you grow. That immediately changes. I mean in an instant can change a sense of in group, out, group, and create in group between you and whoever the person is on the other.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah.
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Rachel Cardero: Matter what generation they're in.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, yeah, I think the research on how we form a group. It. It's just it's so fascinating. And it's so simple. It's as simple as placing individuals on a team. Now, all of a sudden, you're just more attuned to them. You wanna help them. You show this pro social behavior. So I think that's it. It's amazing that sometimes we don't take that extra step. And it's so simple to get everyone on the same page.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: And this actually relates to a question that Helen just dropped in the chat. I think this is really interesting. The cultural awareness. So just as generational awareness is is one piece. Now, we're much more global. So have you experienced any organizations that have had to
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Dr. Emma Sarro: had to address performance management across cultures.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah. Yeah. And it's a tricky one. Where I see this weigh really heavily on people and create a sense of risk. Aversion is actually within senior leaders in the organization. And so at the manager level. Like, there, there, you have to have that cultural competency. You have to have that cultural awareness and managing different folks and different identity backgrounds and experiences.
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Rachel Cardero: Senior leaders tend to be navigating that at a different scale, where they're not only managing the interpersonal aspects of that. But they're managing different regulatory concerns, legal concerns, preferences across countries and regions, and they're bouncing through those conversations at a speed that makes it very difficult
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Rachel Cardero: to keep track of things. And so
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Rachel Cardero: I think I see, when we're we're working with many organizations, senior leaders really trying to get it right. But also there's a lot of risk aversion there, because the dynamics are so complex for them
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Rachel Cardero: that it feels safer. Again, like I mentioned that regression that we're seeing with so many people it feels safer to like. Oh, you know, why don't we just pause, and how about I give you a rating, and I'll give you a number, and then you'll know how I feel about you and cognitive work. You know the risk and anxiety I feel about that like we don't. We might not have to get into that, or we don't have. So
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Rachel Cardero: there's something in helping even our senior leaders navigate. Where, again, if you can make the conversations automatic.
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Rachel Cardero: if you can tell people exactly what to ask, and you can give them.
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Rachel Cardero: And understanding of those dynamics and those first principles, and that can be done really easily. So in our work with organizations, I mean, we will tell folks and give them kind of the the secret ingredients for create a sense of in group, create a reward state, manage these differences, ask for permission before you do.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Thanks, and.
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Rachel Cardero: Create a space where, with very little prep, very little effort, you can jump in and have a really positive conversation around goal setting feedback. It. I mean all of the things that cause so many people anxiety. They go through these processes.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: I know, and and you know, and they they feel kind of drawn in. They have to do it. They have to check that box. But it is absolutely amazing that you're able to do these very simple steps first, and it reduces and we've shown in our feedback study. It reduces the anxiety levels of both sides. By half at least.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: And so it so it's definitely worth it to take those. Take those steps and and add those pieces to the conversation, and and as we, we often work with organizations to build habits, this might be different right at first. That might, you know, be a little bit of a lift to try these ways, and not go back to the, to the normal patterns. As you're saying, this is a this is a response to threat. Just to go back to what worked in the past just like the return to office was.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Let's just bring everyone back to the office in one fell swoop. And that was also a let's just go back to what worked, because that made a lot of sense. But as we know, things change, and there are different ways of approaching individuals. The environment is different now, so we do have to change with it. And so by making those slight changes to your conversations and then trying to do it over time. That will reinforce the behavior. And you're more likely to build that habit.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah. And we're getting people asking in the chat about some of those steps right?
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah.
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Rachel Cardero: Tying down to those first principles.
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Rachel Cardero: I will say there isn't just a silver bullet that you can put in place for everybody. I mean we do. I'll share some of the first principles in a second, and things that work for everybody. But when we work with organizations we take careful time to look at. Where are you right now?
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Rachel Cardero: What are you trying to achieve as an organization? You can do that pretty fast. You can do that, I mean, honestly, in a week you can get your mind wrapped around where somebody is with the right data collection and the right inputs and conversations. To then know we're all about what the essential is we're all about, you know, we're not gonna throw everything in the kitchen, sink at you, but in a really targeted way. What's gonna move the needle for you in these conversations?
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Rachel Cardero: And a lot of the time it's creating that sense of in group. These are the steps that I use with many organizations, and that we teach many organizations creating that sense of in group creating those shared goals.
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Rachel Cardero: helping activate a sense of reward or moving people to a place. Manageable threat, right? We all know or mo. Most of us know, the like that York stops and bell curve, where it's like the the amount of attention or arousal right makes.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Optimal spot. Yeah.
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Rachel Cardero: There's a place where a little bit of stress can help you pay attention. There's a place.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah.
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Rachel Cardero: Little bit of stress can help you perform better. And there is. There's a big part of that curve where it is not good. It is not like too much stress is bad, and so helping people tune into what motivates them, so that they can be in a manageable thread state, and a place where they can listen and think
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Rachel Cardero: and then really activating that growth mindset. And the trick is, I think, doing it in a way where it doesn't feel like this
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Rachel Cardero: heavy multi step process, but that it's automatic through great questions.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. The the right questions are key. So we're getting some some amazing comments and questions and a lot of stories. I think in the chat as well, which is great. But Catherine asked a question in the QA. About connecting performance management pay. And what happens when we detach that, do you have any thoughts on the benefit of detaching, you know, pay decisions from performance management.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, th, there's a whole bunch. I will say that for so many organizations that we work with
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Rachel Cardero: what happens if it if pay and performance is linked in this really maladaptive way, as we see with most organizations. What you get is people wanting to reward their employees unable to do so unless they can inflate ratings.
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Rachel Cardero: unable to do so unless they can have really superficial performance conversations. And so if you're seeing that if you're seeing everybody in your organization is, you know, 90% of people are at the very tippy top. You know, they're the best performers in the world. There's something to explore there, especially when it's tied to compensation. So immediately you can start to Suss out.
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Rachel Cardero: Okay, there's a reward here that people are working toward. And I think that's a good place to start to untangle the differences between pay and compensate or performance and compensation.
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Rachel Cardero: and at a minimum, I think we would advise our clients, and we do advise our clients to separate those end of cycle and the compensation discussion. So you do get a cleaner conversation around, what's working, what areas for growth are when you start with those compensation decisions? I mean, the conversation just falls flat. It's like, this is what you're gonna get. And there, there's really you box yourself in as a manager when you start there.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and we know from the research that that financial reward is absolutely motivating. There's no nothing to say that financial reward isn't. But there is an additional motivational drive that comes from all of the other types of rewards that we get so like career. Mobility is a huge motivator. Social recognition is a huge motivator, so like matching and and talking about like where you want your career to be and and see the growth.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: then your skill set, grow, and all of those things separate from also the compensation. And there, that is the additional boost that sometimes people need. So I totally agree. Separating those, if possible, is, is great.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Damn.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: yeah, I also.
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Rachel Cardero: So saw a great question asking about.
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Rachel Cardero: Well, you know, thinking about that, you know, when you're paying for performance, how do you encourage a growth mindset.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah.
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Rachel Cardero: And a great way that we see many organizations do. This is actually, you know, as part of your performance criteria. You can include different elements like
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Rachel Cardero: somebody's propensity to stretch themselves, to learn and develop over time in your performance criteria, as people are thinking about what rating to give or how to do that year end evaluation without a rating, you can tell them. Hey? You're not only looking at somebody's performance in terms of the what did you accomplish with your goals? What were the results? Give me the numbers, did you make it? But you can look at the how
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Rachel Cardero: and specifically conversations around that. How
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Rachel Cardero: did you push yourself?
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Rachel Cardero: Were these goals really important?
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Rachel Cardero: Did you ask for feedback throughout the cycle
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Rachel Cardero: where you focus on improving? Were you a collaborative team player is something that I see all the time you can work within your process to add equal value or support within the conversation in an equal way. What somebody achieves, what made them good, what helped them grow, and then like. And that's how you tease out that how
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Rachel Cardero: and if it's part of the criteria, then they should be rating on both. So yes, you achieved your goals. That weren't maybe that important that required 0 stretch that were as safe as can be.
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Rachel Cardero: You know, if I get something on. Did you achieve your goals? And how that happens? Even with a rating scale? A manager has a little more leeway to rate that person as maybe just meeting expectations. Or sometimes it's inconsistently meeting expectations because of that. How.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, such a great point. And I think also, by doing that, you're also help to instill this A Co, a cultural growth mindset as well, and the fixed mindset of competition. If it's just strictly based on reaching a certain level, a certain set of goals or output, let's say it's much easier to build this
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Dr. Emma Sarro: competition within an organization. So you're instantly reducing the likelihood of collaboration. You're instantly reducing the likelihood of individual growth as well as we know, the power of a growth mindset.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Absolutely. Yeah. So well, one question for you in terms of those getting back to those conversations.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: for you as a manager. What would you say are are like the most powerful conversations for you at getting your team to perform, or what does work the best for you?
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Rachel Cardero: Oh, that's a really great question. I am. Anybody that knows me knows I'm a big fan of feedback
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Rachel Cardero: feedback throughout the week, feedback throughout the month
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Rachel Cardero: like getting feedback, giving feedback. I think that really understanding what makes feedback good.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah.
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Rachel Cardero: And creating cultures of feedback is a huge aspect. It's just a huge thing to get right.
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Rachel Cardero: And in research that we did. I mean, we had some research that we publish a while back where we saw that like asking for feedback. There's tons of data around this, but that we're asking for feedback is one of these critical differentiators for your culture of feedback, but also for that interpersonal dynamic that you see between a manager and an employee.
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Rachel Cardero: I think, in our research we saw that when people asked for feedback, it actually alleviates a lot of the anxiety that the feedback
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Rachel Cardero: giver has. And so we talked about that thread state earlier on. But you know we didn't talk about the fact that managers actually experience thread states, too. And when you have to give somebody feedback, I mean, managers spend so many hours ruminating on. What am I gonna say? How is this conversation? Gonna go? Are they gonna hear me
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Rachel Cardero: gonna have a big emotional response? Am I gonna be able to handle this? How much do I have to prep? You know what. And I mean, you spend hours and hours agonizing over whether you're gonna be heard, whether you're gonna
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Rachel Cardero: hurt somebody. It's like it's something that people think about all the time.
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Rachel Cardero: And so when you can change that dynamic and create cultures where people are asking for feedback weekly, you actually eliminate the thread set, or you minimize the thread state for managers so that they can be clearer and be more creative and problem solve because their own thread state gets in the way of great performance management.
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Rachel Cardero: And I'm we're seeing in the chat, Josh, about sad. How many people managers don't get training on how to deliver.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah. Mac.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah.
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Rachel Cardero: I I wish I mean, you know, before earlier in my career, you know, I wish somebody would have said, this is how you can ask for feedback, I mean so so often. I was so hungry, for you know I want this, and I heard similar things from peers, and I still hear that today from the clients that we work with from folks in different organizations. People want to grow, and they don't know how to get useful. Feedback
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Rachel Cardero: managers want people to change, and they don't know how to give useful feedback.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Thing, definitely.
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Rachel Cardero: Definitely a huge issue.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, absolutely. I mean it will. As humans, we're looking for feedback, anyways. So if you're not giving it as a manager in the right way. They're gonna look for feedback in every other SIM single that you're giving. So a lack of feedback, or maybe just your responses or so I think without it, as you said, we're hungry for feedback, and we'll react to whatever we're getting and so if you're not giving feedback on what they're doing well.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: And this is one of the ways that we talk about giving feedback. It's not just giving feedback on areas to improve, but making sure they continue to do those things that they do well. So giving that that's very specific feedback, you know, you're you're doing great at these kinds of presentations. But you just need to work on XY, and Z. So I think, that you're able to get someone to exactly where they want to be.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: because they'll use that feedback to their advantage. But but I agree, I think, imagine how much difference we could see if if individuals are giving feedback and asking for feedback, often.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah. Yeah. And we got some great comments in the chat. Now, where people were saying, you know, as we're thinking about feedback, as we're thinking about encouraging employees to grow themselves and push themselves. And there's a fine line between pushing yourself towards Burnout, or pushing yourself in a maladaptive way, and I think there's a question in there around how and all I thinks about that balance.
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Rachel Cardero: And I think it's a really interesting question. And it's something that everybody should think about in their performance processes and their feedback conversations. So one of the things the first thing I'll mention is
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Rachel Cardero: and I love that we included these types of steps in our. So we just made a like a brand new this wonderful distillation of this really broad set of IP, our foundational program, our gold standard program for the neuroscience of management, for managers and leaders, people that are learning how to balance these things for the first time.
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Rachel Cardero: and those also that are working at a higher level. Our lead program.
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Rachel Cardero: And we have some of these skills in that lead program. We're teaching people. Okay, how do you push accountability? How do you push your performance and learning and growth?
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Rachel Cardero: And at the same time encouraging people like literally in the program. Al, also take a walk, balance yourself like sometimes taking a walk and getting some fresh air is actually what you need to do to help yourself, have better connections. Consider new ideas creatively, problem solve. So that's definitely like the question that was out definitely in line with what we're thinking and how we're trying
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Rachel Cardero: to train the next generation of amazing thinkers and thought leaders and leaders. But honestly.
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Rachel Cardero: when you think about not just growth and performance. But, as I said, and only always thinking about, what are those key ingredients? What are those first principles and cognitive capacity and emotion?
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Rachel Cardero: Elation are huge parts of that, and so also help managers see and employees see if you're feeling burnout if you can't even read the words on the page, something's off. There, that's that's a maladaptive way of pushing yourself, of growing yourself. Growth should feel hard but productive.
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Rachel Cardero: Growth should feel a little scary in an exciting way, in a good way. It it should not feel like this, never ending grind, and there's a there's a secret to it.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: No, that's such a great point. I love all those. Yeah, I think in in one of the ways that we kind of kind of integrated those thoughts into lead was that we started by asking people to focus on themselves, which is something that managers tend to do. The last of right. So we you know, by
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Dr. Emma Sarro: understanding the limits of your capacity and developing strategies to really work best with it. So you can focus best regulate your emotions, develop strategies before you even go into the conversation with your direct reports. You're able to have a better conversation and pick up all those difficult skills like, how do you delegate work? How do you have those difficult conversations, all of those pieces, or deal with conflict, for instance.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: since which is also increasing. All of those difficult things are much easier when you've managed your capacity and develop those easy strategies. So I think, all of those very simple things. You can find those in all of our all of the ways that we work with organizations. Right? It's all based on the very simple models of the brain, but used in different ways.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: And it's amazing to me always how simple those little tricks and strategies can be with such great rewards.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, absolutely. So. This has been amazing, great conversation. I hope we can do it again. The conversation in the chat has been incredible. I wish we could have you know, jumped onto all of that. I hope this was useful for you all. Any last last words, Rachel.
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Rachel Cardero: Take care of your brain. Ask for more feedback.
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Rachel Cardero: Do that! Ask for more feedback.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, awesome, amazing. So I guess we'll pass it back on to Shelby. Thank you so much.
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Shelby Wilburn: Awesome. Thanks, Evan Rachel, for today's discussion. We really appreciate your time and everything that you shared. Just a few more closing announcements before we head out, so we will put up a poll to let in us. Let us know how analyi can help you.
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Shelby Wilburn: A couple of announcements. We have our summit survey link. We're getting some of planning underway, and our website will be going live soon. But we wanna hear from you about what you're interested in for this year's summit. So please make sure you check that out and participate inside your exchange. This is specifically for senior executives. If you really enjoy the show? We think you'll love this program. It's an opportunity to have round table discussions with our leaders
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Shelby Wilburn: internally, to look at new innovations that we're working on at Ni. So if you'd like to be a part of that, follow the link in the chat, and we can have you apply
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Shelby Wilburn: if you want to partner with us, and we are really looking to expand our community, we have hosting Nli events. So partner with us. If you are interested, check out the link. And you can apply there. And our podcast, if you enjoyed today's conversation, we always have our your brain at work podcast, so wherever you listen, check that out. And this is where we officially say farewell. So on behalf of our team
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Shelby Wilburn: and everyone behind the scenes, we appreciate. You have a great weekend, and we'll see you next week.