Upended work conditions, increased pressure on organizations to perform and the exponential pace of change has put the spotlight on the need for accountability. Our own research has revealed that despite more than 90% of employees agreeing accountability is critical, 97% of managers and employees find it difficult to create. In many organizations, employees view accountability with fear, blame or punishment, a culture of punitive accountability that hinders growth and learning. However, while accountability provides the structure, direction, prediction our brains crave and organizations benefit from; the key is to do it with the brain in mind. Join Dr Emma Sarro and Dr David Rock as they explore the behaviors and expand on the neural underpinnings that embody a culture of proactive accountability, empowering individuals and teams to be accountable, fostering an effective and innovative environment.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Hello, and welcome back to another week of your brain at work. Live! I'm your host for this week, Emma Saro, and I am the Director of Research at Nli for our regulars. We're happy to have you back, and for our newcomers welcome. We're excited to have you here with us for the 1st time
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Dr. Emma Sarro: in this episode we're exploring the behaviors and expanding on the neural underpinnings that embody a culture of proactive accountability. So really diving into the science here, empowering individuals and teams to be accountable and fostering an effective and innovative environment.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Now I'll quickly share some housekeeping notes. Please drop in the chat where you're coming in from. I'm zooming in from just outside of pretty cold New York City today.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: We suggest that you, for you know, to get everything out of this episode. We suggest that you put your phone on. Do not disturb and quit your email and messaging so you can get the most out of the show today, and it helps with the quality of the audio and video, and we absolutely love interaction. So please keep sharing your thoughts and comments in the chat.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: So I'm going to introduce the guest speaker with me today, and you all know him very well. He coined the term neural leadership when he co-founded Nli over 2 decades ago with a professional doctorate, 4 successful books under his name, and a multitude of bylines ranging from the Harvard business Review to the New York Times, and many more. A warm welcome for co-founder and CEO of the Neural Leadership Institute. Dr. David Rock. Hello again.
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Dr. David Rock: Thanks, Emma. Good to be here. Happy Friday! What a great conversation to have! It's such a fascinating area of research! This one.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. We've been diving into this for a while, but I want to kind of zoom back a little bit to some of the conversations we were having based on our summit just a couple of months ago. One of them was on the impact of AI, and how it impacts our creativity. So I'd love for you to summarize that a little bit and kind of weave it into our discussion today.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, for sure. I mean, there's a lot of change happening at the moment. And partially, it's it's AI driven and other things. But this you know, everyone's talking about AI, and you know, late October, the end of October we ran our summit, and I think one of the most important sessions was a whole conversation about AI and creativity.
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Dr. David Rock: And it's just continuing to resonate and and kind of that session has had us really lean in to think about the habits of people who leverage AI really? Well.
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Dr. David Rock: but it's also had us think really deeply about how organizations can like build a really more thoughtful brain based strategy around AI. And I think a lot of people are being like, led by the technology as opposed to being led by really understanding how humans function.
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Dr. David Rock: understanding the kind of systems that are that that are there and could be improved and then doing change management in a really brain based way, because you gotta remember, most change initiatives fail like 3 quarters of them, you know, fail. So we've been, we've been thinking a lot about
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Dr. David Rock: how to drive, you know. AI transformation in a really brain friendly way, and started to lean into to consulting on that and thinking about that. So it's been a lot happening just in the last few months since our summer. But if anyone's interested in a conversation about that helping your organization develop a more brain based AI strategy. Just put AI strategy and your company name in the chat. Someone will reach out and we're starting to have conversations with companies. But it's about a 6 month process of
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Dr. David Rock: really building a an AI integration strategy much beyond just how to use.
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Dr. David Rock: You know how to use Gen. AI like, really, how you transform your company with it, but actually starting from the science and from the brain. So anyway, that's something we're really excited about. But the big the really big thing that came out of that session, I think, aside from all this kind of momentum on these issues was just this insight that
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Dr. David Rock: we really want to make sure that AI usage, particularly Gen. AI,
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Dr. David Rock: that that it it accelerates people having insights and doesn't rob people of the insight moment itself. Right that that AI should help individuals make connections and speed up the ability to solve those impasses right and speed up the ability to execute on the solutions. But we don't want to rob people of the insight. Moment
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Dr. David Rock: like life is built from these insight moments. Engagement comes from that. Motivation comes from that. Big ideas come from that. Relationships come from that. So really, really interesting insight that inside itself, we want to kind of protect, you know, humans having insights and having, you know, deeper, faster, better. You know better ones as part of the process. And then there was a whole lot of really interesting stuff in that session about what's called the zone of proximal development. All this stuff. Maybe my team can put that session from the summit in the chat if you're interested in watching it. Such an interesting.
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Dr. David Rock: an important conversation, I think, like the right way to use.
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Dr. David Rock: AI. So I think my team has that link somewhere. It might take a minute to put in. But really, really interesting on multiple levels. Let's let's not. Let's not make people less engaged, less motivated, less human, by kind of having AI, you know, solve the problems for us. But help us actually have those insights. And then separately, the way we integrate. You know, AI into our company, we have to start with the humans and the processes we're trying to execute on
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Dr. David Rock: and do that in a really brain friendly way. So that's something we're imagining leaning into quite a bit quite a bit next year. So you know. And all of that means just in the last year, 33%.
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Dr. David Rock: That's the number 33% greater acceleration of change. Let me try and say that better changes accelerated 33% just in the last year.
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Dr. David Rock: in large part driven by AI. But many other factors. And there's this
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Dr. David Rock: interesting question, how do we like, you know, with all this change and chaos, how do we make sure people are doing the right things? And how do we make people accountable when there's so much kind of crazy? So so it sort of, you know, leads us to this? To this question.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you can definitely think about, how do you integrate AI into your organization in a way that also kind of helps your own accountability with your organization, your clients, your customers, your employees, and we've been also at the same time as we're diving into AI and thinking about those habits that we might discuss in the weeks to come. Also, how do we think about accountability and like, why is
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Dr. Emma Sarro: this? Why is this coming up? It's not a new problem. It's not a new thing. Organizations have had systems of accountability for years.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: But why is this something that you feel is kind of more popular now than it has been? Or why is it increasing.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, it's it's an interesting question. And there's there's a couple of perspectives on this. There's sort of a there's 1 perspective which is sort of a little bit obvious, which is that we sort of started to care more about people in companies, you know, over the pandemic and post pandemic. There was sort of this general sense of we, you know, we're caring for employees. And and now maybe some Ceos and leaders are like sort of pivoting the other way, saying, enough with the caring, let's get down to business right?
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Dr. David Rock: And from sort of there's 1 perspective that that kind of makes sense. But I'm not sure that's the real story, and I know we were digging in with one of our favorite researchers, Christine Chesbra, into this question, and I think there's something more kind of structural at foot. Maybe you want to like kind of walk through it. I think it's such an interesting perspective on kind of why accountability is
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Dr. David Rock: back in lines.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's a great analogy, actually. And it really really speaks to what happened and think about how our world has been kind of like upended in the last 4 years, and now the pieces are kind of falling back into place, but they're not falling back into place in the same way that they were before. But accountability systems. They were built very structurally and rigid.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: that were based on like where we worked, how we worked, why we worked, and those kinds of those factors didn't change much over the years. But when all of that upended, all of those factors changed where we work change, how we work, change, and a lot of times, why, we work has changed and is still changing and based on that statistic around the rate of change. This is only going to keep evolving over time.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: So those systems that were built so rigidly, just like any rigid structure when it faces some kind of force. It just shatters and creates chaos. And so you can't necessarily go back to the way it was. So these these factors that all of those systems were based on don't work anymore.
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Dr. David Rock: Hmm.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Right. But when you rebuild it, knowing that this change is going to keep continuing how you rebuild it now we can. We can have some impact on that. So maybe we rebuild a structure that's more complex and flexible to withstand how these factors may change over time. Right? So we kind of understand why, all of a sudden, we're not really sure what to do with this. How do we create accountability? But we can't use those old systems anymore.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, yeah. And and some of that's sort of fairly tangible to understand. Like, you know, basically, people would go into an office right? And you know the the manager would see people and know if they're doing things or not. And you know there was this sort of structure that came from, you know, leaving home, going to the office. And it created a structure. And I think a lot of companies found like people who'd been working with each other for years already, when they went to work from home, things were relatively
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Dr. David Rock: effective still, but kind of onboarding all those new people, and it was really hard to kind of
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Dr. David Rock: manage this hybrid world. I think a lot of companies are still struggling with how do we make sure things are happening? How do we know things are happening? How do we make sure things are really being done?
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Dr. David Rock: And often the reflex action is just, you know. Let's force everyone back to the office. But it's not necessarily the answer at all.
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Dr. David Rock: for you know big swathe of the population. So so you know, I think these are. These are a couple of the factors as to sort of why
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Dr. David Rock: accountability is a concept is is coming back. And it's always sort of been there as a topic. But it's it's kind of front and center for leaders, the changing, you know, work, environment and the the sort of rebound from caring a lot about people. I think for those 2 reasons, leaders are saying, look, we need accountability. We need accountability. Much, much more.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, and how to do it. I mean, so wanting accountability. And we'll talk about some of the ways that organizations can default to certain forms of accountability that really aren't going to help your organization, because what it leads to is maybe a lack of growth or a lack of psychological safety. So there are ways to actually build this, that you can propel innovation and growth
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Dr. Emma Sarro: right where people actually opt more opt into it as opposed to fear it. But that kind of speaks to something that also. We talked about this a little while ago. This idea, this false dilemma. So can you explain what that is?
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah. Firstly, let me just go back step. And I think, let's let's anchor on this this important construct of 2 types of accountability. I think that's a good place to start, because usually, when people say accountability, what they mean is
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Dr. David Rock: we need to tell people when they're underperforming fire people when they underperform too long and just like, you know, get really serious about results, you know. So people think of accountability as like, you know, be really serious about results. And you know, kind of punishing people when results are not achieved.
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Dr. David Rock: Right? We're not firing people fast enough. We're not giving tough enough feedback. That kind of thing. That's a type of accountability. It's an approach to accountability that's called punitive accountability, right? The emphasis on do this, or there's some kind of punitive action, and we coined the term. We coined a different term proactive accountability
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Dr. David Rock: to mean a different thing to punitive. And and it's really it's really something that nests within.
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Dr. David Rock: within psychological safety and growth, mindset as well. So it's sort of hard to understand it without realizing that it has an element of growth, mindset and an element of psychological safety. But then it's this 3rd element of kind of really making sure things happen. And you know, G for growth, mindset, P. For psych safety, a for accountability. We've been talking about the Gpa. Now of your leaders. How good are they at growth, mindset, psych safety and accountability.
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Dr. David Rock: You know, what's your leadership? Gpa, is something we've started to talk about, and we may even assess that. But sort of you know, in that context. There's this really interesting dilemma that you brought up, that
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Dr. David Rock: you know a lot of people assume. You're either creating psychological safety or you're creating accountability. Right. You're either people see it as you're either being kind or you're being tough on results, right? And you can't do both.
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Dr. David Rock: And it's really a false dilemma, because you actually need to do both to get the right results. It's it's not kind of a 1 or the other situation. Do you want to maybe bring that alive with some examples or kind of make that clearer for people.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah. And it's really interesting, because it is a totally different way of viewing it. And David's right, there is this piece where you have psychological safety growth, mindset and accountability. And they all really need to be working together. They aren't really mutually exclusive. If you want to get the accountability that that works and is sustainable. It necessarily involves a growth mindset as well as psychological safety. So they work together and foster each other.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: So just an example of, you know, being faced with, you know, really a tough project for your team, with really really tight deadlines, high pressure, but at the same time not necessarily knowing whether you want to kind of
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Dr. Emma Sarro: kind of be like kind of a hard ass with your team and force them to, you know. Reach these deadlines where failure is not an option, or you really want to make sure you're looking out for their well-being. And sometimes managers look at that and feel that they can only do one or the other. They can't do both at the same time. So if you choose well-being, you may approach them and say, well, you know, I don't really want to stress you out. These are kind of the goals that leadership has asked us
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Dr. Emma Sarro: to reach. But don't worry about it, you know. We'll we'll figure it out along the way. But what you end up doing is you end up leaving your team feeling a little bit uncertain.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: because at some point they know that at some point this will kind of come back to them. But they're not really sure when there's a huge lack of certainty. And so it doesn't actually lead to a feeling of easiness or ease, because there's still that uncertainty right? But if you go the other route, then failure in this case is not an option. These are the goals you have to reach them, and there's no room for mistakes. And so there. You're kind of cutting off psychological safety.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: and so they feel they leave feeling uncertain and fearful of the future, because they know that they're not necessarily going to reach those deadlines, and they can't make mistakes.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: but merging them together means, you know, these are our high standards, and you know, expect us to make mistakes, because this is a really tight deadline, and when we reach them we're going to approach them and figure out what happened, and we'll still reach them. And this is my role in this as a leader. And this is your role in this here. And we're both going to work together. So in this case, you're actually merging both of these concepts, and you can reach those deadlines.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, no interesting, interesting example. And I think it's helpful to kind of have that tangible example. Right? A team with a, you know, tough deadline and so without, you know, we
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Dr. David Rock: firstly, let me say, if you think of psychological safety, as you know, just kind of focusing on wellness and being kind, then certainly it looks like a, you know, it's an either, or but really psychological safety is actually effective arguing. If you had to choose 2 words right? It's like reducing the bias that can happen and the poor decision making right. But with the least possible threat.
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Dr. David Rock: right? So it's minimizing bias and minimizing threat. But it does involve actually creating some discomfort, like psychological safety is about a minute like a level of discomfort. That's not too uncomfortable. Right? So essentially, you are actually challenging each other. You are actually speaking up. You are actually, really focused on the quality of the work.
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Dr. David Rock: So it's not about well-being and kindness. It's really about kind of safe arguing in that way, right? And so. But it's really hard to do safe arguing. If you don't know exactly what the outcomes are, and you don't have real clarity of what's expected of you, which is what accountability really is. Right. Accountability is really
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Dr. David Rock: a focus on very, very clear expectations. And you know very clear intentionality towards those expectations. Right? So if you if you're soft on accountability, you're like, well, we're just going to go this direction. Generally. We hope we'll get there
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Dr. David Rock: if you're not really clear on accountability. You also don't have psych safety
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Dr. David Rock: right? Because people don't know how to argue or what to argue about. Right? So you so you really need both. And then growth mindset is a foundation of, you know, not not forgetting about outcomes, but but realizing that learning is constant
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Dr. David Rock: and and really valuing the the you know the day to day, learning to keep getting better and better and better. So it's really the synthesis of the 3. That's that's good. But let's, I guess let's dig into accountability and focus on this. It's been. It's been about a year. We've been thinking deeply about this, and I think we're we're really at the point now of starting to scale. Some some habit work in in this space.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, absolutely. And I know we wrote just as a plug for one of our blogs. We wrote about this this meshing of psychological safety and accountability and actually growth mindset, too. And it cites some of Amy Edmondson's work, where she actually showed the effect of accountability and psych safety on performance and teams, and it was always better when both of those 2 things were there and within a team. So that data is fantastic. And it just proves the point that you can get both of these, and it actually works out better.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, it's a nice article. If if I say to myself, I didn't personally write that one. But it's a good one. My team could put in our team could put it that in the chat, perhaps it was in our blog. We also did a piece on Hbr, which was relatively early, and I think we've thinkings evolved a little bit since then, but kind of framing up, starting to frame up
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Dr. David Rock: punitive versus non punitive. I think we just called it non punitive at the time, and then we came up with proactive. So it's a really nice hbr piece as well. If you're trying to sort of influence your leaders on the concept. The Hbr piece is good, and then the
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Dr. David Rock: the other piece is really interesting as well. So we'll get those. We'll get those in the chat momentarily. But yeah, let's let's talk about the habits we've been building. So so one of the things that we love to do is work out the central habits in in domains, that matter, and accountability is like accelerating as a domain that really matters
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Dr. David Rock: And the way we do this is interesting, and you may or may not know this. But the way we do this is we'll create a mental model of someone who does this. Well, it's a study of positive deviancy is we'll look at like, what do people who are really good at accountability
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Dr. David Rock: actually do? And let me maybe start with a question for the group. How many people do you know that you work with on a day to day, week to week, month to month basis. How many people do you have that are just like.
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Dr. David Rock: always do what they say, and no matter what they just like, always deliver like. And and even if it's something they don't know how to do, they they work it out and they absolutely deliver when they say they will, or if not, you know there was no physical way to do it. And they, you know, they they, you know, do what's possible. How many people just give me a number. Is it 0? Is it one? Is it 5? Is it 10? Let's get it in the chat we've got? Dave, says one. We've got 2 sounds like a unicorn. We've got 2 twos, 1, 4. So people that just absolutely
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Dr. David Rock: deliver, you know, every time. Maybe my dog exactly 4, 5, maybe. Yeah, interesting. So we've asked this question, a lot of people and the number is pretty small. Usually, maybe if you add your dog, it goes up. But the number's pretty small when you ask this question. But what's interesting is when you start to kind of mentalize. Well, what do those people do? Right? And and then you start to interview those people, and you look at the steps that they take.
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Dr. David Rock: you can actually see a pattern. You can say, look, these are the actual things these people do, that other people don't do right. Now. What we do at that point is, go all right. What does this mean in the brain? What's the what's the cognitive process? And can we chunk this out into 3 chunks right? We find if we can chunk into 3, which we can't always do. But if we can.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Good.
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Dr. David Rock: Chunk into 3. We can teach people right if if you can't chunk into 3. It's very hard to teach people, you know, giving people 5 or 6 steps. Might make you look smart, but doesn't make other people better at something. So so we were able to chunk this into 3.
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Dr. David Rock: And then there was this really interesting science that we hadn't really explored much in other solutions in each of these. And so that's what we wanted to talk through now is a little bit deeper into this, and we're already starting to do work with organizations to teach these 3. It's such an interesting idea that we can have more of those people who always do things, and, if not like.
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Dr. David Rock: show them, like the cognitive steps, to be more like that, like, like, really what that looks like. So yeah, let's talk through. I know the 1st habit. Maybe you can talk through the science, Emma. The 1st habit is, we're calling sync
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Dr. David Rock: expectations. And the word sync is important. Because really, when you do this right, your 2 brains actually become synchronized in a very particular way in a term from neuroscience. So take us through, what does sync expectations look like in the brain? And then maybe I'll talk through what that looks like when people do it well.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah. Yeah. And as David said, Yeah, that's the one thing we look at is, so what are these people doing without any, without any structures in place. One of the things they do is they just make it really clear what they're going to do. And all of this, and actually, the whole idea of accountability is based on how
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Dr. Emma Sarro: quickly and how well we set our own expectations in our brain. So that's 1 pillar of science that we pulled from is our expectation. Mechanism is so sensitive, meaning that how we feel about others work, so whether we expect someone to turn something in or not, is so sensitive that if we are faced with an unmet expectation that we so quickly reset that. And it's all based on
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Dr. Emma Sarro: a set of dopaminergic neurons. If we really want to dive into the science and how quickly they learn over time. So understanding, that is important because you understand that it's really important to be clear in your expectations and reach them.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: So being clear is communicating well. And this really interesting science that David's talking about is now we're able to record from multiple brains at the same time. And what that's taught us is that when individuals are working together and are in the same room, learning together communicating.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: we can actually see that the brain's activity synchronizes the electrical activity synchronizes it kind of follows each other when they're learning or communicating the same thing, and that predicts how well the understanding is shared. So if you're talking to someone else, and your brain is synchronized with them, they understand what you're telling them so. How can you communicate clearly in a way which we can teach? How can you communicate clearly?
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Dr. Emma Sarro: And then, if you were to measure this, you'd likely measure that the brains were synchronized. So that's that's the 1st step. Is, are you? As a leader and or as a direct report sharing your expectation of what you're going to do clearly enough that everyone understands that process.
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Dr. David Rock: Right, or what you want other people to do, or what you know, what you're expecting them to do right, so it can sort of work in all directions of what you're intending to do or what you want someone else to do. But let's address some of the comments and questions coming up in the chat about this, because it's it's an interesting thing. It's it's more than just caring, although clearly, if you don't care, you won't sync expectations. Right? You'll just say, you know. Get get this to me by 5 o'clock, and and you won't like say, you know which time zone.
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Dr. David Rock: or what you mean by get this to me, or whatever? So it does involve caring, caring is required, but not sufficient. So the people who do this well, what they do is this really interesting step? They reduce one of the biases. There's a particular type of experience bias, right? So experience is one of the 5
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Dr. David Rock: seeds biases. Right? So experience bias. One of the kinds of experience biases is called the false consensus effect, also called the curse of knowledge, right, which is is where you believe people understand you, and you can't understand why they don't understand you. And there's a classic study on this or classic kind of activity on this, where someone will kind of clap a song that they know and assume, like everyone else, will understand it like I go
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Dr. David Rock: like everyone must know, that's happy birthday, right? But actually, when you play this, a lot of people, the vast majority of people don't know it's happy birthday, but my brain can't imagine how you can't imagine that's happy birthday. Right? So this is the false consensus effect where those we will rock you. That's funny. The the
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Dr. David Rock: we. What happens is when we know something. It's impossible to imagine what it's like not to know it. And it's it's a cognitive constraint, and so we'll go in. We'll tell someone you know. Get this to me by 5 o'clock.
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Dr. David Rock: We'll assume they know we mean our time zone. We'll we'll assume they mean, you know.
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Dr. David Rock: they know we mean by email. And all this stuff.
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Dr. David Rock: And you know, basically, everyone hears every sentence completely, differently. People process every single word completely, differently and completely different interpretations of everything. So basically, people who are really good about this are really thorough
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Dr. David Rock: with being extremely clear.
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Dr. David Rock: So that there's a there's a mental image, literally a picture in the other person's, you know, visual cortex that's very similar to the picture they have in their visual cortex. And that's when you've synced. Right? So if you're picturing a 1 page Pdf, email, 5 o'clock Eastern time, right at the latest and 5 o'clock being the deadline, right? Then you're saying to that person, hey? 5 o'clock. Deadline must be here by that time, and I need it as a 1 page. Pdf.
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Dr. David Rock: that's ready to send to a client right as opposed to, you know. Get it to me by 5, you say. Get it to me by 5, and the person goes oh, well, 6 might be fine, right or and I'll just, you know I won't finish it, I'll just, you know. So all these assumptions get, you know, cause problems.
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Dr. David Rock: And so the 1st step with accountability is basically reducing the false consensus effect, reducing all those experience biases being really thorough that the other person has an exact picture of what you have in your mind, so that your brains literally sink, and when you do that there's a lovely, pleasurable response that comes from being in this
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Dr. David Rock: in the synchronized experience with people. And then you are going to meet expectations, or you're going to help the other person meet expectations. And then, when expectations are met, there's this lovely reward response. And now you trust people better all this kind of stuff. So so there's sort of 2 bodies of research.
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Dr. David Rock: There's 1 body of research around the importance of expectations being met and how the brain works around that. So we'll teach that there's another body of research around how hard it is to get 2 brains to sync on the most basic of things. And what that really looks like when it works what gets in the way of that right? And so we also teach that. So there's all these 2 bodies of research just around syncing expectations. And you teach this to, you know, a thousand engineering managers.
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Dr. David Rock: and they'll find themselves in this science. They'll be like, oh, I see, I've just been making too many assumptions. I actually need to create a picture in the mind of what I have in mind. So they'll find themselves because it's science, and they'll literally get better at these, you know, at sinking expectations. So that's basically that 1st habit. 2 bodies of science and rational people will kind of notice the cognitive habit that they're missing, or need to work on
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Dr. David Rock: and improve on it. So that's the that's the thing. Any other questions you wanted to address there, Emma, from the chat on kind of this first.st
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, I think I mean, this is such a great discussion. Because because, yeah, there is. There is a benefit of when you truly understand each other. There is this sense of reward, and you're also reducing the uncertainty of those around you. So that's also the ambiguity of I'm not really sure what they're expecting of me. But also the idea of making a very clear picture also helps the individual who's making it.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: We talk a little bit about this, too, is this prospective memory that actually has been shown to increase the likelihood of reaching the goal. Because you clearly see where you're going, and then sharing that with others, everyone is really understanding what's happening and what to expect. And and that whole sense of the expectations. That's something that really really creates this, this whole team, and one of the things that
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Dr. Emma Sarro: just to kind of follow up on one of the questions on the like is this just, you know, caring, or or is it really engagement is? You can also help to boost that with this sense of psychological safety as well. And so that's 1 of the ways that it kind of feeds in to each other is when you have psychological safety. You have this sense of what everyone's role is in this project on this team, and you're there to kind of work toward
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Dr. Emma Sarro: towards helping the whole team reach that goal. So there is, you know, those stakeholders. You're working for them as well. So it's the social bonds that you have actually help as well. So there's benefit of that.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, yeah, no, for sure. So yeah, some interesting questions. So perspective, memory. Emma just threw that out. You know some some terms. It's actually a fascinating term.
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Dr. David Rock: respect.
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Dr. David Rock: Memory is imagining what you'll remember in the future.
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Dr. David Rock: It's like, Will. I remember this later.
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Dr. David Rock: And so it's it's a really interesting construct. And so so it's like, it's it's very, very relevant to to setting clear expectations because you kind of want to check. You don't want to leave it to chance that someone will remember what you said later, because people are pretty poor at perspective memory. Right? They? Oh, yeah, I'll remember all that right, and then they completely don't right
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Dr. David Rock: as I think we mature and get older, we learn more and more about our perspective memory, which is, you know, we realize that we probably won't remember things. So it's really good to be really thorough. And you know, document and all these kinds of things. So yeah, it's basically it's it's thinking about the future and what you'll remember, or it's also a future memory, as Emma said. But you know, fundamentally.
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Dr. David Rock: there's a way you can
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Dr. David Rock: set sync expectations. There's a way you can sync expectations that basically doesn't create psychological safety. Like, you know, you're gonna mess this up. I know I'm going to tell you exactly what to do, and you gotta follow this to the letter right now. You're attacking status. You're attacking autonomy. You're attacking relatedness, maybe fairness. But you're trying to increase certainty right? But that's not great. Right? So scarf is like the primary colors of psych safety. But there's a way to sync expectations where you.
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Dr. David Rock: you know, believe people can get better. And you also you know you do it in a way that doesn't create an autonomy threat doesn't create a status threat, but does increase certainty right? And so there's a, you know, sort of a more gentle way to do it. Where you're laying out. You're asking questions. You're clarifying, but you're doing it in a way that
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Dr. David Rock: that that doesn't create a threat response as well. And so that's that's the kind of balance, right? You're creating a lot of accountability.
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Dr. David Rock: With sinking expectations. But you're doing it in a way that people don't basically get annoyed at you. That you're either micromanaging or insulting. And so you're still keeping this sense of safety in in the process.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah. And you can also set expectations around the fact that there might be mistakes, too. I mean, that can be part of the process. You can lay out a plan and be very clear in the plan, and then also you know what we might mess up, but then we'll meet back up again if you run into trouble, or if we, you know, hit a roadblock. So there's also the expectation of this is going to be a challenge.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, absolutely. And that's that's part of the whole psych safety framework setting up that we all are going to make mistakes. And and you know we're expecting them, and we're all going to challenge each other and expect there to be some tension. And that's necessary. You know that that's part of setting up for psych safety. But let's go to have it too. Right? So the 1st one is, you know, literally, both of you having a matched or synced
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Dr. David Rock: picture in mind of what a task has to look like or what the outcome has to be. Maybe you're not picturing every single step, but you've got clarity on the outcome that you need. The second step is interesting. And also this is this, again, is sort of a couple of areas of research that we introduced. This is around
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Dr. David Rock: drive with purpose.
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Dr. David Rock: And those are 2 words, 2 important words, different but linked words. Yeah, talk us through the science of that, Emma. What is it to drive with purpose? And what are those? 1, 2, 3, 4 people that we all recognize? Do this? Well, what do they do?
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah. Well, it seems like what they have is a lot of intrinsic motivation just to continue moving forward even in the face of obstacles, figuring out those obstacles and maintaining this towards state. So how do you create that? Or you know, as you sit down every day, this individual always chooses that task first.st So how do you get that decision making to happen? One of those is
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Dr. Emma Sarro: the reason. Purpose is part of this habit is to anchor on purpose. And what purpose is really interesting? What it does is it links to and engages a part of the brain that basically values all of our possible options. How do we prioritize? We prioritize something over any of our other possible options by always choosing that first.st And if you have purpose, you're anchoring on some of your individual purpose
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Dr. Emma Sarro: or your team's purpose, that will always link to what you decide to kind of attack or address 1st every day. So aligning with purpose kind of engages this area of the brain. We call it the ventral medial prefrontal cortex. And that's the area that just that basically evaluates everything you're about to do, and places a value on it. This is the most. This is the highest priority. Do this first.st
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Dr. Emma Sarro: What's interesting about purpose is, the research shows that it also has been shown to build resilience, to maintain confidence in the face of challenge or pain, motivation to face that change. It also just effectively shifts your cognitive resources towards that goal and to maintain that goal focus. So it's a really interesting kind of anchor for. And we can actually do that with individuals, help them align to purpose.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah. And it's interesting. This aligns very directly with the concept of construal level. Right? And and you know, purpose is very high construal. It's 1 of those funny words it's hard to say. CONS. TRUA. L. Construal, and one of our favorite scientists or researchers at Nyu. We've had her a few times at the summit. She's 1 of the world's leading researchers into construal level and leadership. And essentially, it's like, you know, seeing the forest.
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Dr. David Rock: not just the trees, and, you know, kind of stepping up control stepping up. And what we see in research on control level is, you know, as you lift up to higher construal, you're literally much more flexible, much more adaptive. So the same research around purpose is showing up in
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Dr. David Rock: in control research directly with leaders. And then we've also published on this a couple of years ago, back a couple of years back with Elliott Berkman showing that there's actually a why network in the brain different to the how network
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Dr. David Rock: and that as you lift up to purpose, you're activating this. Why, network, that's much more motivating, much more flexible adaptive, which is really different to the how network. So purpose, construal level, why network, all these things are very interchangeable, and what we see is that people, you know, really good at getting things done. Keep the purpose of the task really in mind and self motivate with that, and really make sure things happen
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Dr. David Rock: reminds me of some research. I think Matt Liebman published it in his book, Social about you know. They're like something about it. I'm going to mess this up, but it's vaguely remember, like, you know, give fund rate. People who raise money, you know, who are dialing for dollars raise money, you know, when they meet someone in person that is the recipient of you know what they're what they're raising money for, like their their numbers go up massively like when when they're really like, have a tangible example of the purpose of a task. They're much more motivated.
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Dr. David Rock: And I think this is what's going on is that people are able to picture the the outcome, the the reason they're doing something really, clearly. That's the purpose part. The drive part's really interesting.
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Dr. David Rock: There's this, there's this. And and you can talk more about the the deeper science of this. But a high level. It's like
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Dr. David Rock: it's, it's it's it's about intentionality and and and again removing assumptions
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Dr. David Rock: right? So so real intentionality in in your tasks. And I think about when I think about the people, you know, with really high accountability. And we have lots. I definitely a lot more than 5 in our team. I I can think of dozens and dozens in our, you know, in our organization, who just, you know, fantastic with this and you know, probably everyone you know in in in some way. But as I think about what these people do is they're
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Dr. David Rock: not assuming anything. They're not assuming, you know, that everything is gonna go as planned. They're driving right? They're checking, they're testing, they're making sure they're staying on it. And
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Dr. David Rock: it's it's a really different quality versus sort of you know.
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Dr. David Rock: hoping something will happen right? So driving is almost the opposite of hoping. Right driving is like really being on and paying attention
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Dr. David Rock: in real time to what's to what's happening? So yeah, do you want to talk a little bit about the the science of that as opposed to sort of the purpose side.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, yeah. And some of that comes a bit from the vision level, too. Is it kind of engages this towards state? It kind of essentially disengages the worry of the details and the problems along the way you're continuing to look forward, but also the drive can stem from making sure to mitigate those forward momentum biases. So you know, not always assuming that what you've done before is the right way to
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Dr. Emma Sarro: go forward so checking that experience bias, or making sure that you're not making any expedience biases and just going for the you know. The 1st thing that you see is checking all of the options before moving forward. And what we do find is that in our research of accountability in this behavior, specifically is, there are a lot of biases that get in the way both. They either move us forward too fast without, you know, looking for all the options, and in some cases it also
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Dr. Emma Sarro: gets us stuck or causes us to procrastinate, which is another different kind of of our cognitive biases. So all of these things get in the way. And there are very specific strategies to help you kind of address each of these.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: But leaders can help. So leaders can, you know, make sure that everyone has a purpose and realign on the vision. So make sure. Why are we doing this? What's the purpose? Who are we impacting? What are we expecting? This is one little problem along the way. But let's look at the long term goal here.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, no, that's good. And I just want to make a shout out like the seeds model. Right? Similarity, expedience, experience, distance, and safety. Like when you've learned the seeds model. And and you're you're applying that day to day. This whole like work of accountability becomes kind of much more obvious, like, Oh, yeah, of course, I've got these experience biases. That's why I'm not sinking expectations, right? Or experience biases. And you know, with with drive, with purpose, it's like, Oh, yeah, definitely, experience biases
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Dr. David Rock: are getting in the way. And I'm biased to assume you all know what the seeds model is. My team can put it in the chat as we talk about it a lot. But seeds is a big idea. We published in 2015. It's a framework that defines basically the 5 categories of bias based on the brain.
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Dr. David Rock: It's a really powerful framework. It's used by hundreds of companies. Now, we license it to organizations to use it. It's used by all sorts of parts of the armed forces, intelligence and government, and many, many companies use it as the way of detecting and mitigating biases in real time. It's called the Seeds Model. There's a nice paper called beyond Bias in strategy and business. That's kind of a good introduction to it. But if you want to teach this.
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Dr. David Rock: you reach out to us, we can. We can have a conversation. But seeds, you know, like having this understanding of seeds actually makes it easier, much, much easier to teach people accountability because they've really understood that their brains have a ton of biases that are not their fault right? And like, yeah, we've got these biases.
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Dr. David Rock: We've got to work against them. So they don't work against us. And it's just just how the brain works.
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Dr. David Rock: And so it's really helpful having that foundation. So we
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Dr. David Rock: we we, we've, you know, we've been building this leadership program a 6 month leadership experience called lead. You tend to learn accountability a bit later in the experience. But you're learning seeds really early on
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Dr. David Rock: and scarf and some of the other ideas, and they kind of weave through. So anyway, seeds is a great foundation to just
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Dr. David Rock: get people to recognize their own challenges around accountability and self-improve. But I'm looking at the time we should go to the 3, rd
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Dr. David Rock: the 3rd habit. So the 1st one sink expectations really interesting science in there. The second one drive with purpose again, really interesting science and quite rational logical people, engineers, folks in the medical field folks, you know, any sort of rational logical process. Focused person
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Dr. David Rock: can look at this model and go. Oh, that's what I need to work on. And and this is the, you know this is the mental muscle that I can play with to get there. So talk to us about the 3rd habit and the science of that.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah. And this is really speaking to, I think one of the biggest pain points of what maybe leaders are asking for when they're thinking about accountability is what happens at the end or along the way when mistakes happen, or things just don't show up. So why didn't this individual turn this thing in, or show up or follow through, or a lot of blame and finger pointing. So how do we kind of mitigate this this behavior and
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Dr. Emma Sarro: create an environment where individuals are understanding first, st like what their impact was, so comparing the impact of their of their results or their actions along the way with what they intended to so kind of seeing that mental contrast between you know where they wanted to go and where they ended up. And then, with that the need for growth mindset is huge here. So this is really a place where we amplify that
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Dr. Emma Sarro: embracing that gives you the solutions, focused mindset, and also a sense of reward when you're finding solutions. So we want individuals to be looking for solutions as opposed to being stuck and blaming others.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: And so that is, this is a huge part of this habit is embracing that growth mindset. And also the final piece of this is what happens when you mess up, and you need to apologize whether you're a leader or an employee. You do need to apologize, and there is a science to a really well structured apology. And what the science suggests is that when an apology is structured, well and delivered well, in
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Dr. Emma Sarro: individual that's getting an apology said to them is going to be seeing this generation of empathy. Related areas are engaged and deciding whether to forgive is based on engagement of those same areas. And so how do you structure an apology to have that. And what the science suggests is that an apology that's structured to claim ownership of.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: you know, whatever the impact was to communicate very specific plans. So again, kind of like circling back around on this
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Dr. Emma Sarro: like, what are the expectations of what you're going to do, moving forward that those clear, specific plans and then asking the receiver for input along the way. So receiving feedback is another part of this as well. But yeah, so that's kind of like the summary of the science here. Any thoughts on this.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, I know it's an interesting one. It's like teaching people how to apologize well, is actually really helpful, because we're generally in society pretty bad at it, you know, like really claiming ownership like acknowledging that you did it, you know, without the buts and the excuses. Just you know I did it. And I'm sorry what your specific plan to address this is. And then, you know, checking how the other person feels about that really, really a helpful skill
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Dr. David Rock: that can generalize to all sorts of parts of our lives and all sorts of relationships. So it's a really helpful thing. But then, also just learning. You know, there's these own the impact.
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Dr. David Rock: This 3rd habit only impact is also learning from the good things. Right? Oh, this went well. What what habits did we build so that this actually worked? Not just the post-mortem.
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Dr. David Rock: but the post success as well, like just being really passionate about continually learning. And so now we're bringing sort of growth mindset back in
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Dr. David Rock: and all that. So you can see how like
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Dr. David Rock: growth, mindset and psych safety are really woven into, you know, good quality, proactive accountability. It's really, it's really a combination of all 3 in some ways. And we're starting to have some organizations saying, Oh, look, we? We want to roll out all 3
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Dr. David Rock: across our organization. Let's build that. Gpa, let's put, you know, growth mindset across the business, then psych safety, then accountability. And you know, there's a really interesting way, a way to do that. So we'll we'll take a couple more questions, and then we'll wrap up a few minutes, but I think appreciate you. Everyone's comments in the chat. And
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Dr. David Rock: there's there's some really, you know, it's been a really fascinating area of research. What I love about the accountability research is just how much neuroscience there is there. And the way rational people can like really understand what it takes
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Dr. David Rock: step by step to become one of those people. Right? One of those one to 5 people we know. So really, rational people can see. Oh, okay, I need to work on that part, and there's a lot of really good science in there. So we're excited about about rolling this out. We've got some partners already starting to do this. We're actually ready to roll this out early. 2025.
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Dr. David Rock: I guess I'll put this in the chat. Just put deliver and your company name in the chat. If you would like to receive more information about this, we're ready to do what we call hive sessions.
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Dr. David Rock: Which are 3 zoom sessions over a month to rescale this. And we're building a digital solution rapidly, which will be available a little bit into 2025 as well. But just put deliver and your company name. If you're interested in more information on that, or talking to someone, and we'll we'll follow up with you. The other thing is Gpa. So one of our whole approaches to learning is is giving.
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Dr. David Rock: Is actually giving a little bit of content to everyone all at once. And so you can roll growth, mindset out across an organization of any size like a thousand 10,000 100,000 people, literally in a month or a quarter.
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Dr. David Rock: really meaningfully impacting people. So you can roll growth mindset out to a whole company, you know, even a really big company in a quarter, everyone meaningfully having more of a growth mindset the next quarter. Do psych safety with our team solution
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Dr. David Rock: the next quarter do accountability with our deliver solution. So we're we're starting to talk about you know the Gpa. And kind of building building plans to to integrate Gpa across the whole company. So that's another way to think about this. So, Emma, any closing comments on.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Question.
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Dr. David Rock: Address.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, there was a question around just the order of growth mindset to psych safety. I think that's an interesting one to address. Would you like to address that? Why, why do we suggest growth mindset first.st
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, I mean, look, we've we've built hundreds and hundreds of of leadership programs. And
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Dr. David Rock: increasingly, growth mindset is just is going at the start, you know, as we look at all the IP fresh and and the goals of the of the program. And you know, we're building these big leadership pathways, right for thousands of leaders. And we're building, you know, dozens and dozens of these every year. And every time we look at it we're like we should start with growth mindset. Now, that's not a great answer, is it? But we? We keep looking at it fresh and seeing it. But the reason is that it impacts everything else downstream.
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Dr. David Rock: So basically growth mindset is like, it's like, you're trying to grow a plant. And you're putting really good soil and a really good watering system in, as opposed to just whatever's there. Right? So you're creating fertile ground for learning, because growth mindset is essentially getting people to notice when they're fixed on something and changing right getting people to notice when they're kind of
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Dr. David Rock: not being flexible and adaptive, or learning and self-correcting, that
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Dr. David Rock: what we see from our data is like a quarter of people do that every day when we teach it to them. Right? When we teach this well, literally, a quarter of people do this every day, and something like 90% of people do it every week.
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Dr. David Rock: So so self-correcting, like literally becoming more open, becoming more of a learner becoming more curious
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Dr. David Rock: is is foundational to learning everything else. Right? So a serious Dei pathway. We've often put growth mindset, the start, a serious leadership development pathway of any sort. We've often put growth mindset to start a culture change pathway. So while we're defining a company's new culture in a new culture framework. We've often in parallel, just rolled out growth mindset across the organization while we're kind of working on that. So any big sort of behavior change seems to go really well with growth mindset to start.
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Dr. David Rock: because think about the habits, experiment, value, progress, and learn from others like those 3 habits, are super helpful for everything else that you're teaching. So a great place to start that said you could go straight into accountability. You could go straight into deliver
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Dr. David Rock: but if you're, you know, if you're willing to make the commitment spending, you know, a month on each of those or 3 months on each of those is gonna really, you know, build much deeper habits long longer term, I think. So. That's that's the way to think about it.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah. And I'll just speak up a little bit around. That is that the science actually shows also that if you even learning that you can improve, and that plasticity can happen improves your ability to learn. So this is just kind of setting you up to understand and be able to change. And there's actually, we put all of that research in one of our latest papers on growth mindset and our impact
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Dr. Emma Sarro: on growth mindset. So anyone who's a member or a client can get access to that latest growth. Mindset paper. It's a great one.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, you and the team have been doing a phenomenal job with getting research out. We've just published like our second big paper on growth mindset. Just recently, also just recently published our 1st big paper on accountability. So we have the 1st paper now about proactive accountability. It's for corporate members or clients or partners. We don't. We don't publish it publicly. I'm sorry, and we've also been publishing like on AI and all sorts of things.
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Dr. David Rock: So really our hats off to you and the team really accelerating our publishing of papers. So lots of great things there, we're coming up towards the end, I guess. Just some closing comments from me before some announcements. Emma, I'll let you do the announcements. Just
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Dr. David Rock: it's a really fascinating area accountability. And it's really not about being kind versus being results focused. It's actually about
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Dr. David Rock: real clarity on how to communicate, so that difficult things happen and doing it in a way that people feel respected and get to learn
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Dr. David Rock: right. And and really, that's something that we can all you know, benefit from in our organization. So such a fascinating area of of research, and thanks everyone for the kind comments on this, and I'll hand back to you for some closing comments. Just one last thing, if you are interested again in kind of exploring this further from an organization. Just put the word, deliver your company name in the chat. We'll make sure someone reaches out to you to have that conversation. But
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Dr. David Rock: thanks so much, everyone. I'll hand back to you, Emma, and look forward to seeing you all in the New Year. Take care, bye, bye.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Thanks, David. Yeah, this is fantastic thanks for the discussion. We appreciate your time and everything that you shared today, David.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: for closing. Please take a look at a poll that's about to pop up and let us know how Nli can help you in the future. It's going to stay up for a few moments, as I kind of run through all of my other announcements. So biggest one is. This is our last one until the New Year. On January 10th we'll be back with a kickoff session that explores all the trends in leadership development today. So it's going to be a big one. Many so many leaders are experiencing imposter Syndro
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Dr. Emma Sarro: when it comes to their role, and much of this can be solved with better development. So look out for an announcement to register soon for that one
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Dr. Emma Sarro: brain-based design and facilitation workshop. So for anyone who doesn't know we've been designing these, they've been happening in person. They're going to happen virtually for anyone looking to amplify how they design learning whether it's virtual, live in person, asynchronous. This workshop will provide you with an inside. Look on how we use our brain-based approach in our own design. This event is going to be. The next one is going to be in February
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Dr. Emma Sarro: virtual workshop over 3 separate sessions, and we'll be likely to host one in person near you in person. So if you'd like to go in person that has been fantastic. The virtual one will also be fantastic
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Dr. Emma Sarro: for any C-level or senior executives looking to get an inside, look into their own brain as they learn the critical habits for leaders. We're designing a 3 day brain lab of effective habit activation seminars and real time. Eeg scanning so kind of bringing up that that neural synchrony idea that I brought up before participants will walk away with insights into their own brain as it faces complex challenges so really exciting
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Dr. Emma Sarro: upcoming event, and finally, any senior executives. If you enjoy your brain at work, live, you will love our insider program. We invite you to join this exclusive opportunity where you can enjoy benefits such as 1st looks at our new research, roundtable discussions with leading executives and researchers.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: and helping us to craft new innovations at work. So we love your feedback. Here we will be having an upcoming event soon. So apply, follow the link that's shared in the chat, and look out for the next event.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: If you enjoyed today's conversation, you will love the podcast show. So make sure you subscribe. You can hear past Friday webinars on demand. So look for your brain at work wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts. So now this is where we officially say farewell for the year. We hope you have a wonderful holiday season and a happy New Year on behalf of guests, myself, the Nli team behind the scenes. Thanks again for joining us, and we will see you back here same time next year.