Meet the world’s smartest leadership coach, NILES, NLI’s Neuro Intelligent Leadership Enhancing System. Designed to make leaders smarter, faster. In today's tricky environment, leaders are under pressure to do more with less, juggling multiple responsibilities with limited resources. What leaders need is an AI tailored to meet their specific challenges. One that provides in-the-moment support, offering insights that are both easily digestible and immediately actionable. A leadership AI should both enhance leaders’ decision-making making, stress management, and help them boost their teams’ engagement and productivity. Unlike generic AI tools, a leadership-focused AI needs to understand the constant overwhelm leaders face. Join Dr. David Rock, CEO and CoFounder of the NeuroLeadership Institute and Rachel Cardero, Vice President of Consulting and Solutions, on the next Your Brain at Work, as they discuss what a leadership AI needs and how NLI has responded to this need with its own leadership AI – NILES: Neuro Intelligent Leadership Enhancing System. Attendees will experience NILES in action. Drawing upon over 25 years of using neuroscience to develop leaders and drive performance, NILES is ready to revolutionize leadership.
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Emma Sarro: Hello! Welcome everyone!
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Emma Sarro: Happy Friday!
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Emma Sarro: Just wait as everyone kind of rolls in as you're as you're joining. You know the the deal. Please drop in the chat, find the chat button where you're coming in from today.
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Emma Sarro: It's beautiful here, just outside of New York City. Finally.
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Emma Sarro: although it may rain during the weekend, which is nothing new for us this year.
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Emma Sarro: Glad to see so many people joining. This is such an exciting episode for us. So it's going to be a lot of fun.
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Emma Sarro: all right. So as everyone is joining for those that don't know me, my name is Dr. Masaro, and I lead the research team here at Nli, and, as I said, just coming in from just outside of New York City. For those of you who know us welcome back. We're excited to have you here for anyone who's joining for the 1st time. This is such a great episode for you to be 1st timer in. We have a surprise guest joining. So it's going to be a lot of fun.
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Emma Sarro: And as you continue to drop in where you are coming in from today's episode. We are kicking off a month of discussions around AI. So every week is a different version of this several within the week as well, this one today how to tailor your AI to meet the specific challenges of leaders
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Emma Sarro: which is really not the same as any other generic AI excited for all of us is that we're going to have a look at how leadership AI should be designed and interact with it today as well. And the name of our AI is Niles, if you haven't heard it before.
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Emma Sarro: So one thing I will suggest especially today, is, please push aside any distractions. Take your watches off. Move your phones to the side, close any windows. This is something you don't want to miss, and I'd love to begin introducing our guest today. Rachel Cardero is our vice president of consulting and solutions. Here at the Neuro Leadership Institute, she specializes in partnering with executives on
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Emma Sarro: transformational human capital initiatives, especially global culture and leadership transformations. And importantly, for today is the one of the major driving forces behind the development of Niles. So Rachel, so happy to have you here with us today.
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Rachel Cardero: Thanks so much, Emma. I'm really excited to be here excited for the conversation. I think AI is on everybody's minds, even just a little bit.
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Emma Sarro: Yep, absolutely, and I'm so excited to welcome in. You know him very well, coined the term neural leadership when he co-founded Nli over 2 decades ago. He's got a professional doctorate for successful books under his name, and a multitude of bylines ranging from the Harvard Business Review to the New York Times, and many more warm welcome to our co-founder and CEO. Dr. David Rock. Hello.
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David Rock: Thanks, Emma, good to see you happy. Friday, hey? Rachel?
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Emma Sarro: Right? Yeah, we are so excited to have you both here today, and we have another guest coming up. But first, st before we bring him in, or it in, or however you want to call it how did Niles come about? Initially, David? You want to start us off.
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David Rock: Yeah, you know, I've been thinking about sort of similar ideas, for, like more than a decade, I kind of always imagined like, well, I mean I for a long time, when I was doing coaching and training coaches, I always watched that there was a very, very, very clear like
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David Rock: next step in every coaching dialogue that had the greatest chance of of insight. So I'd set up these dialogues, and we'd I'd watch people try to kind of coach, and I could see exactly why they'd say the wrong thing, and exactly what the right thing would be to say, and we kind of got clearer and clearer and clearer to the point. I could, you know, stack rank, you know, 50 questions against which ones would most likely to result in insight, and I saw, you know, years ago, more than a decade ago
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David Rock: that there was a very real science to coaching. I always imagined, like one day we'd be able to create a digital coach that actually knew all this and kind of understood this. But it was kind of a crazy idea at the time, but once, you see, there's a real pattern that there's an algorithm.
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David Rock: you can do something with it. So that's what was sort of always there in the background. The other thing is, I was kind of always imagining something that would be able to see like
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David Rock: things going wrong in real time. So when you have something like the scarf model, and in your brain, when you go into a meeting and something goes wrong, you go. Oh, look at that! That's a fairness, reaction. This person used this word, and it created a fairness reaction in them. And then they said something back from their threat response that created a status reaction in the other people. And then that created like, and you can actually see exactly what's going wrong.
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David Rock: so it was. It was really interesting. I've always imagining that there'd be software that would detect like scarf threats and then seeds, biases, and then kind of people speaking at the wrong level, and people mishearing each other. So I was always imagining. In fact, I talked to Ibm about that like 10 years ago, like, there must be a way to do this. But it was sort of too early. And so we've sort of been. We've been dreaming about these ideas for a long time. So we've basically been building an ecosystem of language tools.
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David Rock: for you know better leadership, and to some degree that we sort of almost had too many, because it was like so much to sort of solve. And we got to this point of just having like a lot of different models. So where it ultimately came about was
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David Rock: a couple of years ago, we finally said, well, let's build an off the shelf
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David Rock: foundational leadership program because we'd built more than a hundred custom leadership programs where a company said, You know, help us define leadership. Go and build all our leaders. We did like more than a hundred custom solutions like that.
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David Rock: We're like, okay, we must be able to do something off the shelf. So we did it. And then we kind of worked out the 9 essential habits and the right time to learn those in. And as soon as we kind of put that together and put it down, we realized that people are really impatient and didn't want to wait to the end of the program to know how to like, you know, solve a conflict right? And we're like, okay, so how do we?
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David Rock: You know, how do we give people instant access? Yeah, this was the lead solution. So so you know, we launched lead last year and straight away. We're like, we need something that kind of helps. People get straight to the challenge.
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David Rock: And because there's really sort of 2 ways of doing leadership development, there's sort of just in case learning. And then there's like in the flow of work learning, we're like, you know. Ultimately, people like get stuck. They want something right now. So we sort of play with the idea of a cohort coach which we still have in there a human cohort coach, and we're like, I wonder if we could put all this into AI. And at the time it was like
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David Rock: kind of crazy, big idea. And we didn't realize how quickly AI was accelerating. We might have started earlier. But we're over a year and a half into this now. And you know, training the AI, and we found that it's actually, very, very, very powerful, surprisingly powerful. In fact, the people we're showing it to is just blown away with what it's able to do. So that's kind of the history as a happy accident, although something we've been dreaming about, for, you know, for probably more than 15 years.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, that's so interesting. Because as you're describing all this, I mean, we've been doing. It's just the technology wasn't ready for us yet. Right. We've been doing this all in designing all of our guides and our practice tools, imagining that people have these with them. But now no one necessarily prints these off right away. You need something in the moment, and we've been trying to get more and more in the moment with everything that we've been designing. But now we have this, and it's almost making it for even before the moment like you're you're preparing for the moment with Niles.
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David Rock: Yeah, that'll be an interesting development in sort of the next generation next year of Niles, giving you nudges ahead of time, based on seeing kind of what you do. But already Niles today literally today, will listen to the conversation you have
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David Rock: with him, and at the end of it give you some feedback about your thinking style, and and like things to work on to get smarter. So he's literally listening to your intelligence and helping you get smarter and we're very quickly gonna pivot that to be able to, just, you know, turn him on to listen, to have a meeting
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David Rock: and give you feedback at the end of that meeting about exactly how to get smarter and what you might be missing, you know, from a brain perspective.
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David Rock: So a really powerful coach that can also be used for very specific purposes so it could be listening to a thousand call center operators and giving them feedback about how they're interacting with customers, right? Or listening to a thousand doctors in their 1st year. Helping them be more effective. So can have all these really business use cases as well as you know, a a general coach. So that's some of the some of the sort of vision stuff. But that's happening really fast, and we'll probably be doing some of that in the next few months.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, yeah, I mean, and no one knows more about how fast this is moving and changing than you, Rachel. You are deep in the weeds of this every day. So tell everyone how this is different than any other generic chat, Bot, because we're not the only one.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, this is one of my favorite questions that we get, because it really comes down to
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Rachel Cardero: what was your AI tool trained to do.
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Rachel Cardero: And you know, if we had, let's say, an AI tool that was calibrated and trained for as a recipe, Buddy, right, it would be trained on all these different problems on, you know, people's ovens being calibrated to different temperatures, and, you know, issues with unit measurement, conversion, and with Niles. Niles has really been trained to be neuro intelligent.
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Rachel Cardero: to be an expert on the neuroscience, expert on leadership, on human behavior. And if you think about the difference that that makes. One of my favorite analogies to use is, you know, if you use, let's say, a chat Gpt which is connected to a lot of information. It would be the equivalent. Let's say your Internet went out in your home.
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Rachel Cardero: and you were going to go into a feedback conversation, a difficult feedback conversation. And you called up a friend and you said, Please, please, Google, feedback methodologies. I need help with this. And your friend, you know.
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Rachel Cardero: Hold on to the phone and Googled and said, Okay, I'm gonna read you the 1st couple of search results. This is probably good. It's coming up. First, st you make a decision on whether you want this or not
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Rachel Cardero: versus Niles. If you think about calling somebody that is a trained expert in human behavior, in psychology, in cognition, in leadership challenges calling that expert with more than 30 years of experience, evidence-based experience, that person doesn't need to look up the 1st Google search results. They know exactly what to tell you, based on your role, based on your organization, based on your scarf
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Rachel Cardero: profile, hey? Start with some certainty, start with some relatedness and all types of solutions that I think you just will not get if you're using something that's just trained to be pretty broad. And what I love about where we started like, David was saying.
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Rachel Cardero: because this started thinking about how we can help leaders. It really was this very organic process of well, if we're going to help them do this. Then they need to know coaching. Niles needs to know coaching, and it needs to be an expert. If we're going to help them do this, then Niles also needs to know about how the brain operates and threatened reward and organizational dynamics and organizational hierarchies. And so that's how it got pieced together in a really logical but organic way.
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David Rock: Yeah, it's a good answer, Rachel, and I think if you imagine lawyers are doing really well with legal AI, they have to make sure they don't just believe the output, because it still hallucinates. But legal AI has a very particular structure, a particular output, particular focus. So you know, if you're a physicist, there's an AI. You're using
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David Rock: that that has a particular approach that goes to a particular depth that you wouldn't want from, you know, Chat Gpt, and I think what we're going to see is, you know, AI is just like saying software right? There's not like one kind of software, software is infinitely variable and ais are going to be infinitely variable and focused and fit for purpose. So when you think about leaders, what do they need? They want something, you know. Immediately, something
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David Rock: very effective, something focused, something solution focused, something. Business focused.
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David Rock: something that's not about just you know, something that's balanced between human needs and business needs. Right? There's a lot of nuance that's sort of non-explicit about how a leadership AI needs to be even something as simple as what's the philosophy it's built on. Our AI is built on, you know, growth, mindset, psychological safety, accountability, you know, in equal doses. So
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David Rock: you know, whereas you you might have another leadership. AI, that's just on accountability and doesn't take into, say, psychological safety. Right? So even within a leadership, AI, there's going to be, you know a bunch of them, and and depending kind of what you're trying to create, you'll you'll get some different options. So you know our leadership AI is is very much
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David Rock: for inside companies that we're not trying to compete with. Chat Gpt. This is for companies that want, you know, every single people manager to be the best they can be, and to be getting smarter as quick as possible. Right? So it's it's for inside companies that's gonna get housed on their server. Very often it's gonna be tuned to their leadership model.
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David Rock: and you know, tune to their Hr practices and be this conversational partner where all the data doesn't go back to Apple or Google or Microsoft, whatever like this, the data and the insights remain with these companies. So I think it's a different kind of strategy. So it's fundamentally different. So it's still an AI, but it's it's going to be a very business. And you know, corporate focused AI, that still has the human dynamics in there.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, it's so interesting. So let's let's move on to Niles a bit. Right? Introduce what we talked about, what? What a leadership AI really needs to have. But then, specifically about Niles, what are the different components of Niles right now?
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David Rock: Yeah, take a quick stab at that, and Rachel fill in the gaps. But there's there's some really specific elements.
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David Rock: so firstly, Niles is an incredibly powerful coach. And we're actually collecting data at the moment about the percentage of interactions that result in an action that you do. And we believe that will be a very, very high percentage compared to other models. Because we've been tweaking for that for 26 years. For 26 years we've been working out. How do you coach people in a way that brings them most efficiently to insight and then action? So they build habit. So Niles is a very, very powerful coach
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David Rock: that's generalized to any situation that involves you just being at an impasse
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David Rock: it could be. I'm just feeling overwhelmed at the moment could be. I'm having trouble with a project having trouble with a colleague. I need to give feedback to someone. So you know, any kind of impasse is going to help coach you. So that's 1 module. The other thing is is it'll actually give you advice. But based on the brain. So you know, you say, Hey, I'm having trouble with feeling overwhelmed.
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David Rock: It can go into coaching, but it can also say, Hey, would you like some ideas from from research about the very best things to focus on here. So you got a coaching module. You got an advice module based on neuroscience
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David Rock: which is really really powerful. You also have a practice module. So you can actually go in and say, Hey, Niles, let's practice this situation. I was just doing that this morning. Actually, let's practice this situation, and including, you know, help me practice coaching.
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David Rock: And so a lot of that. If you sort of umbrella all that the umbrella overall, that is, it's making you smarter, not just giving you answers. And that's a really important thing. We're seeing research. That overuse of AI can make people worse at critical thinking. We're actually improving critical thinking.
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David Rock: But the focus is on giving you insights rather than just answers. And I think that's that's a you know, fundamentally different. A different strategy. Rachel, what would you add with the modules that I've missed in the in the build.
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Rachel Cardero: There are a lot of really interesting things that are built into Niles. I'd say, like the fact that it boosts critical thinking is a huge one. If you think about
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Rachel Cardero: how this amount of stress that your leaders are under in your organization, to have somebody help them slow down and really get the best out of their thinking, literally create new thinking for them and new solutions. It's just such a huge benefit on top of that in order to do that, one of the things that Niles is trained to do is to help you manage your threat level.
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Rachel Cardero: and in order to be more self aware and make those connections. And so this wonderful byproduct of helping you think more critically is actually better stress management, resilience, ability to focus ability to turn off some of the rumination where we lose so much productivity in our organizations, where people are thinking about that conversation where somebody insulted me, and I'm not really sure how to address it. All these people issues that cause a lot of noise.
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Rachel Cardero: I know one client that's thinking about using Niles for a large cultural transformation. And they're just looking at the people across the organization, thinking like, there's so much uncertainty from the change that we're experiencing. And so there are these beautiful wellness benefits that you get from using Niles to that decrease of stress and resilience that I think are very interesting. And we've gotten a lot of great feedback on them.
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David Rock: Yeah, interesting.
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Emma Sarro: You know there's what comes to mind is our. We had a conversation a few weeks ago about the stuff of stuff of thought. Right, David, and this was kind of part of that discussion is, you know, as we're as we're starting to work with AI more often, we naturally default to, you know, just taking the answer and not thinking critically. But this is, as Rachel is saying is providing you a bit of suggestion with the reason why. And this is why
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Emma Sarro: the brain, the brain does this. And this is why we feel this way. And this is like an easy approach, which is all of our work is based on this. So it's taking all of our, you know, at the anchor, we're really just focused on minimizing threat and like providing you with a bit of a growth mindset and helping you communicate with others. Because that's everything that we're doing at work. It's all this, this basic. And if we're provided with the why and able to critically think
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Emma Sarro: and able to action that we'll be able to learn more over time.
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David Rock: Yeah. And it's well said, I mean, I think you know, we because we've been studying the brain and leadership, we come at things from a different angle, and the the
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David Rock: the things that we find get in the way of good leadership. And you think of leadership as just influencing people and collaborating, and, you know, working together. But the things that get in the way of things like not understanding the limitations of our cognitive capacity. So Niles really understands those and knows kind of how to help you deal with the limits of just working memory. The limits of cognitive capacity. A lot of leadership challenges are
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David Rock: just basically cognitive capacity challenges that people are overlooking.
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David Rock: You're giving people too much information, not enough clarity, not enough insight in all this. So that's 1, and you know another. One is just the limits of impulse, control, and self-regulation. The 3rd one is the limits of social cognition, which is sort of understanding people. So we have these sort of 3 limits, limited capacity, limited self-regulation, limited social cognition, and pretty much most of the world's leadership challenges come down to one of those 3, and Niles is like trained to just kind of make you better at those.
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David Rock: So he'll actually. And this is one of the modules at the end, you know, of giving you giving you feedback about your style
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David Rock: without you even asking, although he'll ask permission.
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David Rock: But Niles will literally say, Hey, look! Why don't you try? You know, lifting up? You're lost in the weeds, or why don't you try? You know, more positively orienting this way or what. So he'll listen to trends and the reactions even other people are having to your conversations and be able to give you guidance. So it's quite a different thing. I see quite a few questions coming, but why don't we jump in? Let's do a demo, and then we'll take some of those questions. There's a few technical questions.
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David Rock: And coming in some really interesting ones. Keep them coming. We'll we'll get to them. But let's have a let's do a demo. I know. 5 min, 10 min, something.
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Rachel Cardero: I can. So one of the things that we do is, you know, we try and put ourselves in the seat of the average leader or manager, and really especially pressure test Niles ability to bring us to insight. And so how about I give you a conversation?
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Rachel Cardero: That I heard recently that I walked.
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David Rock: And folks feel free to put a question in the chat. If there's a question, ask Niles, and we're not. Gonna there's really no visual. The visual is just sort of him thinking you thinking, we're not only gonna do that today, we're just gonna have a conversation, because I think Niles will be really powerful, literally, just in your earbud or talking. We want to minimize, screen, use and just be able to like, have a conversation at any point like.
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David Rock: you know you have. You're having a meeting. He's just there in the background, and at the end of the meeting you say, Hey, Niles, can you give me some thoughts on that meeting? What could I have done better? So minimizing screens? So it's really highly fluent.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah.
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Rachel Cardero: let me bring Niles up in audio, and I'll start a conversation. But if you have a question for Niles, you can put it in the chat or in the Q. And a button.
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Rachel Cardero: Alright! Here we go.
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Rachel Cardero: I'm going to just share my audio, so you can all hear this really well, alright.
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Rachel Cardero: one second sorry this is my side. And just to answer some of the questions that have come up, Niles, we had a question about like the a lot of the evidence, and how we've trained Niles. Niles actually has access to our full research library. A bunch of peer reviewed papers in addition to our full product suite. And that is part of that training.
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Rachel Cardero: Hi, Niall! Can you hear me?
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Rachel Cardero: Yes, Rachel, I can hear you loud and clear. How can I help you today?
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Rachel Cardero: Wonderful
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Rachel Cardero: Niles! I am actually having trouble. With one of my team members. I need to walk into a feedback conversation sometime soon, and I I just don't know what to do. This person doesn't listen. They're not very good. I I'm not sure where where to start.
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Rachel Cardero: I understand you're facing a challenging situation with a team member and need to have a difficult feedback conversation. Yes, there is a great neuroscience reason for that it is
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Rachel Cardero: that feedback can trigger a threat response in the brain, making the other person less receptive. Would you like to unpack this further with me? I can share some insights on how to approach this conversation in a way that minimises defensiveness and maximises the chances of a positive outcome.
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Rachel Cardero: I would love that anything I need help.
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Rachel Cardero: It must be tough feeling like you're walking into a situation where you're not sure how it's going to go. I had a situation once where I had to give some difficult feedback, and I was really dreading it. It turned out that, preparing myself with some insights about how the brain processes. Feedback made a huge difference. I can act as a mentor here and provide advice, models and technical knowledge.
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Rachel Cardero: or I can act as a thinking partner, reflecting your thinking, spotting, self-defeating patterns, questioning your assumptions, and offering alternative ways of thinking about your worldview.
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Rachel Cardero: Which approach would you prefer?
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Rachel Cardero: I think I like that coach approach more
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Rachel Cardero: understood. So as your coach, I'm going to ask you a few questions to help you find a solution. Some may seem a little funny, but they will help you find new solutions
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Rachel Cardero: to start. What specific outcome would feel meaningful to you from this session regarding this team member.
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Rachel Cardero: I I just need to know what to say. We keep having the same conversation, and they don't change, and they think they're the best at everything. But they're not
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Rachel Cardero: okay, it sounds like you want this conversation to finally lead to some actual change in their behaviour, and you want to address their overconfidence. So thinking about the ideal outcome. What would it look like if this team member were performing at the level you expect, and were more open to feedback? What would you be seeing and hearing from them.
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Rachel Cardero: I want to see an actual change in behavior. What I get is a lot of you know. It wasn't my fault. It's not my fault. I do a really good job, but they don't actually change. Or they say, Okay, but they don't change.
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Rachel Cardero: Okay. So you're looking for a shift from excuses to action, and from simply agreeing to actually implementing the feedback, to dig a little deeper. What would that look like in practice?
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Rachel Cardero: Can you give me a specific example of a situation where you'd want to see them respond differently.
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Rachel Cardero: I've been asking them to track
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Rachel Cardero: changes in a system we're building. And I get a lot of yeses, but not a lot of attention to detail. I want to see that they are actually listening to the feedback that I'm giving, and I want them to when they say that they've done something that it's been done, so that when I go in and do other types of testing it's finished.
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Rachel Cardero: So the specific behavior you want to see is accurate and complete tracking of changes in the system.
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Rachel Cardero: demonstrating attention to detail and follow through on their commitments. What would it mean to you and to the team if this person consistently delivered on this expectation?
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Rachel Cardero: I think if she could do it, it would be a lot
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Rachel Cardero: easier. I'm I'm just. I don't know how the team feels about her, but I don't think anybody's enjoying this. You know groundhog's day experience.
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Rachel Cardero: Okay? So if this person could turn this around, it sounds like it would lift a weight off of you, and it would create a more positive and productive environment for the whole team.
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Rachel Cardero: What do you think is the biggest obstacle preventing this team member from meeting this expectation right now.
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Rachel Cardero: honestly, it's her personality.
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Rachel Cardero: I am tired of having conversations with her. I'm tired of her coming back with 0 answers, and just a bunch of defensiveness, and I don't really. I'm I'm really at my wits end with her.
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Rachel Cardero: I hear your frustration. It sounds like you're really feeling drained by these interactions and her resistance to taking ownership. If you could wave a magic wand and change one thing about her approach to these conversations, what would it be?
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Rachel Cardero: I think I would want her to.
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Rachel Cardero: I think openness.
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David Rock: Why don't? Why don't we pause there? Right? Lots of great questions coming in. And yeah, no, really. Thanks. Thanks for jumping into that. Lots of great questions, you know right now. The percentage of people who have coaches who need coaches is or could benefit from coaches is pro in companies we think about, you know, probably something like a billion people work in a company in the world, right?
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David Rock: And and probably like a few 1 million of those have coaches. Right? So this is not so much about putting human coaches out of work, because people will actually prefer to have a human coach?
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David Rock: And maybe that human coach will be even more powerful.
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David Rock: Because of, you know, tools like this, that human coach would have niles, listings and coaching and and improving their coaching right. But what will happen is, the cost of a coach is incredible, whereas, you know this might be, you know, $30 a month.
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David Rock: not $3,000 a month. Right?
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David Rock: And so now you can have, you know, hundreds of millions, or even more people actually having a coach that really helps them unpack insights faster and be more brain friendly. So it's more about expanding the market than like, you know, putting the, you know, a few 100,000 coaches out of work. But yeah, I'd love to hear from folks. Thanks for comments, Martha Scott and others. Yeah, the voice is great. I think we are going to go to an Australian accent next week. We finally found one.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah.
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David Rock: We've been going back and forth on that. But in the final product people will be able to choose an accent. They can, if they prefer, you know, an Indian lilt for their Indian office, so that people can understand it better, or they prefer, you know, singlelish for their Singapore office. There's, you know, there's ways to do that easily. But at the moment we're sort of getting one main accent in that way
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David Rock: that it will be possible.
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David Rock: So yeah, some questions coming in. We're actually finding 15 min is plenty of time for a coaching session. And usually we find we can bring people to insight. We're finding like, more than 3 quarters of the interactions bring people to an insight
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David Rock: in 15 min. And, in fact, maybe a lot more, we're still getting data. But in human interactions we found it 75 to 90% in a 10 min conversation using our model. And we collected a lot of data on that. So with Niles interactions, we think that's going to be the same or better. But we don't have the data yet. So we're we're kind of. At 15 min. He starts to wrap up if you're still kind of not somewhere. And he starts to ask you about possible actions and and then gives you feedback at that point.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah.
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Rachel Cardero: I think in our testing internally, we see some people having Aha moments and insights as early as 4 or 5 min. But Niles really tries to make sure that it's encouraging behavior change, which I think is another differentiator of Niles is that it's trained on habit, formation and behavior change. And so you get your Aha moment, you get your insight, but it also helps you make that real. What are you going to do? How can I help you plan.
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David Rock: Yeah, exactly. So it's impasse, insight, action, habit, right? And so it's helping you like, identify the impasse helping you turn that into an insight. Using really deep science of insight. We published 3 papers on insight. We've done 21 years of research into insight itself, like how how they actually work, how you actually have more of them. The exact brain state to have more of them, why, they matter how they change the brain, and then even how to measure them.
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David Rock: So it'll be. You know Niles is going to be listening for the strength of insight that you have, and you know, responding accordingly, and kind of jumping into action at all of that. Martha's asking, can we ask now something likely to get a short answer? Yeah, we could ask for guidance or advice on a particular question. We'll do that in a minute.
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David Rock: Does get to know the person absolutely. There's some pretty long-term memory. Do you want to speak to that Raj.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, it does get to know the person. So Niles
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Rachel Cardero: tracks your progress across conversations so it can detect patterns in your thinking. It also gets to know your your preferences based on your scarf profile and based on your your motivation style.
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Rachel Cardero: In addition to all of that, like a bunch of folks have asked about confidentiality, and you know, how do you keep this?
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Rachel Cardero: From an ethical perspective? How do you keep it? Like privacy, high confidentiality. High Niles. Whatever Niles does learn about you, and those patterns in your thinking are completely confidential and private to that user.
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Rachel Cardero: And so Niles doesn't share out to the broader organization like, Hey, lots of users in your organization are having the same issue, or, Hey, I've learned from other people on your team that yes, accountability is an issue. Niles is trained to not do those things, and we have a lot of security, rigid security protocols to make sure that it doesn't happen.
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David Rock: Yep.
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Rachel Cardero: Niles can take demographics into consideration. But the main one that it's really considering is what your level of leadership is. To really help you with those contextualized leadership.
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David Rock: Yeah. And commercially, we're imagining pretty quickly. We're going to move into like healthcare Niles, financial services, Niles insurance Niles, you know, aerospace Niles that has, like the distinctions from those industries and then level. So you know, frontline manager in healthcare Niles, mid level manager in healthcare Niles. So we're definitely imagining a lot of versions of that. And then we're also imagining building custom Niles for very particular purposes. So you might have.
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David Rock: you know, nurses doing behavioral interviewing to help and behavioral kind of coaching to help people with.
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David Rock: you know, with with different things, and could be giving them feedback to improve them on the fly. So very, very specific use cases because we've got this generalized coaching tool. Some interesting questions coming in. I love the questions and we'll do another demo in a sec. Maybe, Rachel, you can see some of the technical questions, but just, you know, broadly, we have trained it on our coaching model, and we trained it on our coaching model because we've tested ours compared to others.
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David Rock: and what I find is if you get a room of 100 people, pair them up, and we've literally done this over and over over about a 15 year period. In our first, st you know. 1, st 15 years or so get 100 people, pair them up.
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David Rock: did it in groups of 24 at the time. But the math is correct. You got 50 scenarios. Get everyone to write down a challenge, an impasse, you know. I'd like to do such and such, but such to get everyone to write down a real impasse they've been struggling with, for, you know, weeks, months, or years, get randomly, pair people up, get them to try and help each other for 10 min. You get about 5%
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David Rock: success. Now, we actually define success as the person has a level 4 insight where they're very motivated. And they and if you ask, and they say they're going to do something differently, and they're very, very confident that they will.
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David Rock: So this is without the follow up you can always do follow up, but without the follow up, you're asking the question, how confident are you on a scale of one to 10 that you're absolutely going to do this action now, and it didn't exist before this conversation, you can collect that data. So what we found is that the success rate in general populations was 5%. If you gave this to lawyers or consultants, it was 0.
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David Rock: So you get all these because basically they just like went in circles and tried problem solving and just didn't get insight happening. General, the coaches trained in other models we found between 30 and 50% success rate.
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David Rock: And we actually studied like, why, that was. And what's different about most of the models are basically kind of sports psychology. So goal setting with action planning, they move too quickly to action before the person's had an insight, and they don't activate the metacognition state necessary for insight.
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David Rock: What they do is they the coach more than 3 quarters of those interactions. The coach asks too much about the issue that actually the coachee, the other person's brain gets really noisy rather than quiet, or they focus on the problem too much, or the coach tries to solve the problem.
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David Rock: And so what happens is you're either making the brain noisier. The coaches brain noisier, or the coach is trying to solve it. Most interactions went like that with most coaching models, and people were unconscious of that, whereas what really creates insight is, you make the coaches brain really quiet, you activate a particular type of metacognition.
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David Rock: and the coach doesn't try to solve the problem at all. So they don't make suggestions unless they're really shifting out of coaching. Right? So what we found is coaching models were between 30 and 50%. We could dependably get up to 75% like dependable. And it was really spooky because we'd run workshops where we had 100% over and over. So you get, you know 12 people have a breakthrough in something that had been happening for months or years
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David Rock: in 10 min. With this, with this approach, and we tried this in like like simultaneously translated. And all this kind of stuff. And you know, this is what this was sort of the birth of our organization. So
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David Rock: we not? We don't want to water down the model. We want to focus it and focus it and focus it on the most powerful way to bring people to insight.
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David Rock: because when they've had an insight, they'll set an action.
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David Rock: And if you, if you just sort of ask about goals and options and ideas, it actually feels a little annoying because you don't really have an insight. So that's a long answer to that one.
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Emma Sarro: You know, it's interesting. Is that what you're speaking to? This is really based on everything that we that we talk about? But there's so much power in getting others to have their own insights. And it's really hard for someone who's coaching to actually hold themselves back, too. So it's hard for any one of us who is working on coaching someone in our organization to insight when we want to help them solve the problem. And we're we're driven to help them. So you have this coach in Niles that won't ever do that
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Emma Sarro: that will just continue to try to work to get you to insight, and so you don't have to. You can completely benefit from all of those outcomes of having insights.
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David Rock: Yeah, yeah, Rachel, I don't think you got to an insight yet in that conversation you were kind of dancing around. I don't think you got to that moment yet. It's really obvious. When someone has one. They go kind of quiet first, st and then they start to get energized.
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David Rock: And we didn't get get to that. I think we're about 7 or 8 min in and it's also a demo. But in in real situations I've been giving this to friends and literally walking with them while they use it, and then, like seeing them have the insight. Most of the people I've given this to and trying it, having that insight moment in about like 8 to 12 min. What we're seeing.
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Rachel Cardero: That. I think everyone, at least like anecdotally in our internal testing. Everybody has an insight. I can try with a real problem and be really vulnerable.
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David Rock: Let's not do that right now.
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Rachel Cardero: Watch it, my face about me.
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David Rock: With my boss. Let's do it. Let's do it an advice thing. Let's I don't know if you've got something ready or not but people were asking, Can we do know? Like you know, let's do another couple of quick ones. Maybe.
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Rachel Cardero: We we did a we got a lot of great prompts in the in the chat as well. Another thing is, I do see a lot of technical questions coming through. If you are at an organization that's thinking about Niles like, feel like we can put you in contact with somebody and have a really detailed conversation.
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Rachel Cardero: not our privacy standards, but all of our data is encrypted at rest, you know, like personal information, is the identified, like all of the standards, are there.
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David Rock: Yeah. And folks, if you want it, like, if you're from an organization and you want to dig into Niles, just put the word Niles in Iles and your company name someone's gonna reach out to you in the next few days. So just put Niles in your company name and someone will reach out and we can. You know we can. We can have a quick conversation with you and demo it, or we can like really dig in with your tech team, and you know whichever is appropriate. But just put your company name and and the word Niles, and someone will reach out to you that way. So yeah, do you want to do some Demos.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, let's do this.
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Rachel Cardero: Let me bring bias is mean. Wants you to get embarrassed with with Niles. We don't embarrass Rachel.
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Emma Sarro: Rachel's looking for a question. It's actually a really good point. It's 1 thing that's been coming up for me is that when we talk to non humans, we're going to temper ourselves differently. When we know we're talking to a human, we we change our behavior, no matter who it is. So this actually provides you with the open ability to kind of be more authentic because you, despite the fact that he sounds like human, he has this great accent, you'll be able to
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Emma Sarro: tell the difference between them. So you might actually be able to be completely authentic and feel less socially vulnerable.
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David Rock: Yeah, yeah, and that definitely has guardrails, like, even if even if you like, there's a lot of things will just say, that's not my area of knowledge. I'm not going to help you with that. And it definitely has guardrails for any kind of risk and danger. I saw a story today about in the media, about, you know, an AI encouraging someone to have some meth as a treat for themselves. It's like almost
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David Rock: so.
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Emma Sarro: I also won't do that.
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David Rock: Yeah, that's not gonna do that. Yeah. What do you want to take it away? Rich with an example.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, yeah, let's do that now.
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Rachel Cardero: Okay, give me a second. I think I saw somebody. Martha had a great like straightforward one.
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Rachel Cardero: Let me see.
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Rachel Cardero: Okay, let me share my audio again. Apologies.
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David Rock: How you do that. We we're not yet able to put this into individuals hands it is in some companies that we're we're putting this into companies now at scale. It's in a thousand seats already. So it's ready to go into companies. We're not yet ready for individuals, but we're working on it. We're hoping to have that available that you can just get as an app, and you know, pay for and use. So that's coming soon, but not just yet, but it is available now to go into companies.
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Rachel Cardero: Hi! Hi, Niles! Can you hear me?
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Rachel Cardero: No, let me. Sorry I ended the call.
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Rachel Cardero: Hi, Niles! Can you hear me?
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Rachel Cardero: Oh, I did not share my audio with you all. Give me a second. I'm sorry.
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David Rock: So I'll answer some other questions while it's there. There is a there is a wait list. You can go on. Maybe my team can put the link. There's a wait list. You can go on as an individual, and you'll be. You'll be notified really quickly when it's out. My team can put a link there. But yeah, there's an app coming that you'll be able to get from all app stores. And we've been very busy on like the core, you know. Mode the core kind of product without kind of getting into some of the scaling stuff yet, but it's coming.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah.
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Emma Sarro: Can imagine how nice this would be working remote and having kind of like a partner, an office mate much easier to access than.
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David Rock: Yep.
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Emma Sarro: Right.
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David Rock: While she, while she's doing that just I'll just say also that
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David Rock: he's yeah, just some interesting comments. He's definitely gonna be at a tweak to industries and even levels. And
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David Rock: all of that. So, Rachel, you ready there.
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Rachel Cardero: I think so, Niles. Can you hear me now?
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Rachel Cardero: Oh, I'm sorry. It's I think Zoom does not. It keeps kicking my audio off of the platform.
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Rachel Cardero: Niles, can you hear me now? Can you all hear it?
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Emma Sarro: We cannot.
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Rachel Cardero: Niles, please hold on!
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Rachel Cardero: Hold on!
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Rachel Cardero: Thank you to me.
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Emma Sarro: I just wanna make a note that your voice changes a little bit when you talk to Niles. Rachel.
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Rachel Cardero: Does it? Oh, my gosh, that's it's so funny! So I've had a bunch of folks talk about how like one of the biggest benefits of Niles is actually the fact that there's no delay between when you have an issue. And you're having that like tough experience and your conversation. So I think what happens in a lot of organizations, even if you do have a coach, is that
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Rachel Cardero: you don't necessarily get access to that coach immediately. You know you can't be insulted accidentally in a meeting, and then call up your coach and ask like. Ask them to coach you through it yet with Niles it is possible, and it just creates like it really boost productivity of boost morale.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah.
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David Rock: There's that quote from it was a quote forgot his name, but I love to learn, but I hate to be taught right. So people don't actually hate feedback. They hate feedback from other people. We get feedback from the world and machines, and you know our feet and everything all the time. So it gives you the chance to get feedback to learn really, really fast. Let's just use mine. I've got a I've got a Nas up. Let's.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, yeah. Sorry. It's my audio that's not.
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David Rock: Hello, David! How can I help you today?
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David Rock: Rachel has a question for you. Niles. Give her a moment. She's going to ask you a question over to you, Rachel.
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Rachel Cardero: Niles, I'd love some advice on a situation. How can I approach an employee about correcting their chronic lateness to work.
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David Rock: Oh.
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David Rock: chronic lateness! It's funny how something that seems so simple can be so disruptive. There's a great neuroscience reason for why this can be such a tricky situation it has to do with how people perceive fairness and status before I dive deeper. Rachel, would you like coaching on this? Or would you prefer to just chat and brainstorm together.
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Rachel Cardero: I wanna chat and get strategies from you. Niles.
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David Rock: Okay, great. I had a situation once where a team member was consistently missing deadlines, which is a bit like lateness in that it impacts the whole team's rhythm. It must be tough feeling like you have to be the enforcer, especially when you want to maintain a positive team environment. One strategy that worked for me, tying it back to Nli's models is focusing on the why behind the lateness. Often there's an underlying issue like a scheduling conflict or a personal challenge.
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David Rock: that the employee might not feel comfortable sharing directly.
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David Rock: Have you considered exploring the reasons behind their tardiness before addressing the behavior itself?
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Rachel Cardero: I haven't. I haven't. I think the thing that I'm really not sure about is the the why sounds like a good idea. But how firm versus understanding should I be? I don't really want to have a conversation where I'm like, it's okay. Just you know. Why. Why? Why do you want this, I need to know what the balance is.
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David Rock: That's a very valid concern. It's about striking that balance between empathy and accountability. Think of it this way. You want to create an environment where the employee feels safe enough to be honest, but also understands the importance of punctuality. One approach could be to start with a firm but empathetic statement such as I've noticed a pattern of lateness. And I'm concerned, I understand things. Come up. But it's impacting the team. Can you help me understand what's been happening
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David Rock: this way, you're setting a clear boundary while also inviting them to share their perspective. Does that feel like a reasonable starting point?
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David Rock: I like that? Okay. Great.
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David Rock: What do you think?
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David Rock: All right, let's pause in there. Yeah.
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Emma Sarro: Okay.
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David Rock: I stopped him there. So you can. You can see how he's giving suggestions. But he's giving suggestions and explaining the neuroscience right? And then you can dig deeper, or you know, and and you know all of that. The other thing that's there. Someone asked about this. I put it in the chat. But you will be able to see the Transcript if you want to. And you'll be able to input text, say, Hey, Niles, can you, you know. Read this email I just got from a colleague and tell me why I'm so upset about it.
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David Rock: or, you know, to help me improve this this communication. This kind of thing, so you'll be able to upload. You know lots of information as well in the way we do with with others, but it's very much anchoring on helping you understand humans
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David Rock: and helping you understand humans better and making you smarter about humans. So it's making you smarter about people which is ultimately making you smarter because you're getting smarter about yourself. So and and as well actually improving that you're thinking. But yeah, let's see what's in the chat. What reflections are there? Yeah, it's
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David Rock: it has some. It has some empathy empathy. Yeah.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, I think the advice was right on, and it gave a good balance of empathy, but also providing the the boundaries the certainty.
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Emma Sarro: I I think we do have a poll to drop into. We might as well before people.
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David Rock: Yeah, but we drop it. Let's.
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David Rock: you know, a poll. So we know kind of how to support people. And then we'll we'll take some more questions, and he has a lot of lot of dynamic in his voice. That really is is pretty game changing. It's it feels really
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David Rock: very very engaging. We've been wondering about the uncanny valley. I'm curious, because I've had this debate like, should Niles empathize with examples of things that he had. Or is that like
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David Rock: going too far? I've really different opinions on this. I'm curious about this. We should have had a poll on this, but so you know you could say I'm having trouble with a you know employee, and Niles could say, that sounds hard, or Niles could say, that sounds hard. I had trouble with an employee once, and so crossing over to, you know, pretending that he's human. Is that a good idea or bad idea? At 1st I was like, no, I don't want to.
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David Rock: Don't want to hear that but in other people are saying, no, it's humanizing him. So I'm curious what people think about that question.
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Emma Sarro: I would love to find out, too. You know I, some of my colleagues have have said that have challenged Niles and said, Well, how can you have your own experiences? And he it? It admits it. Well, I you know, just trying to. You know. You know, give you an example. You know, because I can't have experiences like this. I'm in AI. So it's kind of.
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David Rock: What Laura was saying.
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Emma Sarro: Else as well right.
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David Rock: Was saying, it pulled her out of the experience like, Hang on an AI doesn't have that like
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David Rock: you out of the experience. I thought that as well. So I'm not sure it could be a little patronizing. Yeah.
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David Rock: I think it's distracting. Yeah, I think it's probably distracting ultimately, and and probably the smarter the person is, the more it's probably going to like, annoy them and and reduce trust in some ways. So we'll human niles it. Well, we can humanize it in other ways. I think one of the fun things we're working on as questions come in. We're thinking about the future of Niles. So one of the things is like literally, just make it really, really easy for you to leave it on and give you feedback at the end of a you know, a meeting, or a day, or a week, or a month.
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David Rock: you know, like that's coming. Imagine being a listen to you over a whole week and give you reflections on your week across all sorts of domains. Right? That's coming the really interesting thing. And we talked about this in the stuff of thought.
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David Rock: If you didn't listen to the stuff of thought, I recommend that as one of the podcasts we did recently, it was really, I got a lot out of it. It was weird. We kind of dug deep into how to think about AI and the human brain. But one of the things I was talking about is in that session is that we've been sort of the history of technology is like making it easier and easier to interface with technology. But it's actually not that it's actually making it less and less attentional effort
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David Rock: to go from an intent to an action so wanting something to it happening has gone from like, you know, weeks with Ibm punch cards right to, you know, hours with with machine coding to minutes with basic language to, you know, moments with screens right? But what AI is going to do is actually make you not even have to think about it. It's gonna notice that you call an uber
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David Rock: at, you know, 9 o'clock every Wednesday, and ask you if he wants you to keep doing that for you. So it's going to offload a lot of thinking which is interesting, which can free up your thinking for other things.
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David Rock: And so so we're imagining Niles helping you ahead of time with interactions. Like, hey? You know, I noticed on a Thursday and Friday you tend to really slow down. Maybe you should, you know, have a healthier breakfast, so you can be energized. So, hey, I noticed in your calendar you've got a 1 to one meeting coming up with a new employee on your team. There, there, I can see they're more of a certainty. Person where you're you're more of an autonomy person, just from public information.
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David Rock: You're probably tempted to approach the meeting this way, you might want to approach it this way. So we're going to get to a world of what we call neuro intelligent nudges ahead of time
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David Rock: to help you ahead of time, be able to interact with people better. And going back to another question. You know, we have a bias framework. We have a motivational framework with scarf. We have a bias framework with seeds. We have a levels of thinking framework. We have an insight framework. So we've been building these frameworks that help you understand human interactions. And so all of that's woven into the fabric of it.
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David Rock: so yeah, the you know, the goal is democratized as much as that word as possible is to democratize coaching, make it much more accessible to a lot more people and a lot more use cases, Rachel. We've got about 5 more minutes. Any technical questions you want to answer there, or things coming up, or Emma.
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Rachel Cardero: We had some good questions on. Will Miles become an advice monster? Just telling, telling, telling telling and I'm happy to say it's actually been trained and designed not to do that thing, and so it will always ask your permission before it goes into a deeper coaching session with you. But even when it is giving you advice, there are questions woven in there to help boost your self reflection, and judge your level of readiness to to act
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Rachel Cardero: while it's giving you all the empathy that that you're hearing and putting you in a more reward state. So you can actually plan and think creatively.
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David Rock: Yeah, it's a good question. And people asking, you know, can you tweak how Niles interacts with you like, if you just want to vent. Can you do that? Yeah, absolutely. You can. You'd absolutely just be able to say to Niles, Hey, I just want to vent and and just share what I'm thinking. I don't really want any help right now, and he'll just listen and acknowledge and appreciate. And so you you can. You can say, Hey, Niles. Can you be tougher on me? I've been, you know, like I need you to be a bit tougher on me, or a bit kinder.
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David Rock: so you can. You can give Niles some feedback in his coaching style as well. But there are some things you can't change when he coaches you. He's gonna use a certain approach where you have the insights. He's not just gonna like, have an insight, and then tell you exactly what you should do.
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David Rock: Yeah, in fact, that way. Yeah, interesting.
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Rachel Cardero: One of the things Niles won't do, though, so I've seen like when people are really distressed. I've heard Niles like we'll give you breathing exercises. We'll let you vent we'll listen to you. Niles
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Rachel Cardero: cannot sing to you yet, so that's not a possibility. It can't sing you, and it can't scream, so I've had some people say, like kind of like, Let's let it out like Niles. Will you scream with me? Let's let it out together. It won't scream or sing not yet, never say never. But it will definitely allow you to vent it will role play with you. So if you say, hey.
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Rachel Cardero: tend to be this terrible person, and I have to face them, and I have to give them feedback on how they're making me feel like Niles will absolutely.
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David Rock: Yeah.
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Rachel Cardero: Payroll.
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David Rock: And that's really helpful. Like you help me role, play how to coach this person? Right? It lets you be that person and role play with you real time. It's amazing. So
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David Rock: it's yeah. I'm sorry about the male name. But we liked neuro intelligent. And I was trying to. There was a Nina for a while. Maybe we could do a Niles and a Nina. But we liked neuro intelligence because it really isn't just artificial intelligence. It's artificial intelligence about the human brain built on 26 years of research, like 70 research papers and hundreds and hundreds of programs we've built that are literally about, how do you help people most efficiently?
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David Rock: So it's neuro intelligence, you know, on top of our artificial intelligence. So it's a really different thing. But you know right now, we're looking for partners to like really scale this with, we've got a dozen or so partners that we're kind of. We've got some really amazing pilots. But we're ready to really scale this and get some some real work out there. So you know, Pop, your name, your company, name, and Niles in the chat. If you haven't already. If you're interested in talking about.
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David Rock: we can certainly do small pilots of a hundred folks. But we're actually really ready now with voice to take this out and get this really moving, so feel free to reach out to us and and have that conversation. It's an incredibly exciting time for us. It's like
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David Rock: an evolution. Over 26 years. We've had a lot of big evolutions. But this is a really interesting evolution where you know, something like scarf and seeds, and these things could go to tens, or even hundreds of millions of people to help make them, you know, smarter faster, and that's the tagline. Niles makes you smarter faster, and that's our that's our goal. So I think that's it for me. Thanks everyone for being here, Rachel any closing comments, and otherwise back to you ever.
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Rachel Cardero: Just. I hope you all enjoyed Niles. There's more a lot more to come.
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David Rock: Yeah, fantastic. And if you're from an organization, we might send you the link to try him.
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David Rock: We're just opening him up. So if you're from an organization, we might just you might just get an email, look out for it. In the next couple of days you might get an email that says, here's a free access to to trial this. And you can get in and have a play. So thanks so much. Everyone. Thanks for being here, back to you, Emma.
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Emma Sarro: Thank you both. This has been amazing, exciting. This is just one of many. We're going to have several sessions throughout this month. So on different aspects of Niles, so I hope you join us for the rest of them, and in just a few months we have our annual summit, and Niles will be a featured speaker on hopefully several keynote sessions. So I know we have our landing page now
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Emma Sarro: for for summit, so you can take a look at what we're planning. But absolutely, Niles will be there. So you can see it again. And yeah, and that will be in November 12th and 13.th So I think here is the website, if we haven't
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Emma Sarro: dropped it in already. And so I hope you enjoyed this conversation. If you want to hear any of our others. Make sure you subscribe. You can just look for your brain at work wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts, like spotify, and this is where we all say farewell, and I hope you enjoy your weekend, and on behalf of all of the guests today, and I team behind the scenes, thanks again for joining us, and we'll see you back here same time next week.
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Emma Sarro: Take care.