Join us for a special episode of Your Brain at Work, recording live from Davos, the annual meeting of the World Economic Forum, in Geneva, Switzerland. This event brings together top leaders from across the globe and across disciplines, involving political, business and cultural leaders. Dr. David Rock, who will be in attendance, will share his reflections on the event, this year themed, “Collaboration for the Intelligent Age”. Don’t miss this opportunity to hear his thoughts, live!
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Ariel Roldan: Welcome back to another week of your brain at work. Live! I'm your host, Arielle Roldan, for our regulars. We're happy to have you back, and for our newcomers. Welcome. We're excited to have you here with us today. For the 1st time in this episode we'll hear from Dr. David Rock as he reflects on his time in Davos, at the World Economic Forum this year themed collaboration in an intelligent age. We're so excited to hear your insights and the sessions you hosted.
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Ariel Roldan: Now, as I quickly share some housekeeping notes, drop in the chat or the comments box on social, and let us know where you're joining in from today.
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Ariel Roldan: We suggest you put your phone on. Do not disturb and quit your email and messaging apps. So you can get the most out of the show today, and it helps with the quality of the audio and video.
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Ariel Roldan: We love interaction. So feel free to share your thoughts and comments in the chat
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Ariel Roldan: time to introduce our speakers, for today. Our 1st guest. You all know him well coined the term neural leadership when he co-founded Nli over 2 decades ago with a professional doctorate, 4 successful books under his name, and a multitude of bylines ranging from the Harvard Business Review to the New York times and many more, a warm welcome for co-founder and CEO of the Neuro Leadership Institute. Dr. David Rock.
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David Rock: Thanks very much, Ariel. Can you hear me? Can you hear me coming through there?
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Ariel Roldan: Yes, thanks for being here today. David.
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David Rock: Excellent.
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Ariel Roldan: And our moderator for today holds a Phd in neuroscience from New York University. She leads the research team at the Neuro Leadership Institute, where she focuses on translating cognitive and social neuroscience into actionable solutions for organizations. A warm welcome to the senior Director of Research at Nli. Dr. Emma Saro.
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Ariel Roldan: Thanks for being here today, Emma, and passing it over to you.
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Emma Sarro: Thanks, Ariel. Happy Friday. Hey, David, how are you doing.
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David Rock: Thank you. It's been a very different Friday for me. I have to say very unusual.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, I mean, we're all super excited to hear what you have to say today. Everyone at Nli. I'm sure a lot of them are joining in today to hear. We're so excited about this episode to hear your thoughts and insights because you've been in Davos for the week at the World Economic Forum, and I know you hosted several events, attended many of them. And so we're.
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David Rock: Going to.
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Emma Sarro: Them all today and hear, hear your insights.
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Emma Sarro: 1st and foremost, I feel like for me. Anyways. This week was full of reports or articles sharing out. You know what goes on at Davos? Who was there? What was discussed? But we're not there, so can you just jump in and tell us a little bit about what it's actually like. There.
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David Rock: Yeah, absolutely. It's it's so interesting. There's so many experiences in life that from a distance you kind of assume a 1 way, and you get up close, and they're completely different. And Davos is a lot like that, like I told my eldest daughter, who's now 21 that I was here, and you know she rolled her eyes and said, What are you doing there? It's a terrible place. You shouldn't be supporting that. And you know many people have this perspective that it's just about. You know, financiers and presidents, just, you know, having a good time. And all this stuff, it's actually very different to what I understood from the media.
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David Rock: And I'll just say, the 1st thing is, I actually think it's a really healthy thing that the planet does this. And I say the planet, because it's people from everywhere
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David Rock: like, firstly, in January, secondly, on top of a mountain that's actually very hard to get to and hard to be at. So it kind of takes a real commitment that people who get here, but also just like to have downtime at the start of a year to actually think bigger thoughts is really healthy, right? But, secondly, to have downtime with people you don't actually really see very often.
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David Rock: maybe never see, but actually get a chance to create in group. Right? So so what's happening is there's this, this possibility of sort of enemies meeting each other and actually getting to understand each other and have shared experiences, maybe find some shared goals and go from, you know, out group to in group. So I think it's a big
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David Rock: in group creation exercise. Right? Remember, we classify everyone as in group or out group. And there's there's, you know, countries like there's Kurdistan, there's Afghanistan. There's Russia, there's the Us. There's you know, countries all over the world represented sharing out what they're about sharing out investment opportunities. But really it's
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David Rock: it's a chance for bigger thoughts
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David Rock: as well as for connections with people you wouldn't normally get to know. And I actually think those 2 are healthy things. Overall. So that was that was kind of surprising.
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David Rock: The the other thing is, everyone thinks that that it's like, you know, the world Economic forum. They think it's this you know, a bunch of presidents just saying nothing. And you know, just a bunch of talk. But actually, there's a lot that gets done beyond just building relationships. A lot of plans created a lot of you know, decisions made. But the most interesting thing was that there's this whole world of like, you know, economics and finance.
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David Rock: and someone somewhere along the way I don't know who like. 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago. I don't know. I have to research it. But someone said, Let's create an alternate Davos
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David Rock: that actually focuses on the stuff that these money people don't even think about.
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David Rock: And that ends up actually being a much more interesting conference. And it's not like one conference. It's like, there's like 50 conferences. There were 500 talks on over the week, and it's a full time job trying to understand any like just the schedule.
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David Rock: But there were 500 talks, and the majority of them were actually about. Not about like. Do we do this with interest rates? How do we deal with migrants? What are we doing about the war. Most of them were actually about 4 or 5 themes. Right? One of them was, what do we do about the environment? Right? There was a lot of sessions about the environment. And these are hosted outside the kind of main event.
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David Rock: But you're having ministers from countries, and you know, and billionaires and creative people and artists. And all these people kind of in this conversation together.
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David Rock: talking about what should we do about the environment? There's probably there's probably 50 to 100 different workshops about like, what do we do? And the word regenerative came up a lot. I really noticed that coming back in right? There's exploitive, depleted, sustainable, and regenerative.
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David Rock: We've we've hosted a number of sessions on that. Maybe my team can put in the chat one of those sessions that we did. But it was really interesting to hear regenerative really coming in as a theme around environment. So there's a lot of sessions in the alternate track. So I'm not a President or Prime Minister. So I wasn't in the main conference, which literally costs a quarter of a million dollars to get access to and is like this insane thing, and the security was incredible. That's where trump was. That's where the Prime Ministers are, and that's you know, all that.
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David Rock: But the alternative conference is actually also very hard to get into, and also very complicated, but just really surprising a that it existed. But anyway.
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David Rock: sustain regenerative practices. Big, one big thing, right? From every angle water and food security and
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David Rock: you know, environment, there's a lot of amazing technology being presented here and launched here, whether it's like, you know, reclaiming gas from landfills or turning, making water safer, or there were hundreds and hundreds of presentations of these really awesome startups and kind of technology companies that were doing stuff about the environment. And a lot of them are trying to raise money.
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David Rock: So anyways, environment is a big theme. AI was everywhere. So that's true. But what was interesting it wasn't like AI is gonna be amazing. It was.
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David Rock: how do we do AI properly. There was a lot of sessions on like we shouldn't be giving AI to kids. There was a lot of sessions on. How do we do AI ethically. How do we take it out of you know? How do we take the bias out of it? So there's a lot of really thoughtful
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David Rock: sessions about that. But there was a there was an AI house. They have this situation. Sort of these different brands will take over a whole building and and sort of put on events right across the whole building, and there was a few AI houses. There was a future house and a, you know, a house of trust and a house of innovation. And all this stuff. So anyway, AI definitely big theme environment, a big theme.
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David Rock: and and just the future a big theme like. So a lot of sessions about the future. I actually went to a a whole 4 h workshop way up in a mountain. We had to walk up a snowy path.
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David Rock: To get there and coming down at night in the dark was pretty scary. Actually, I was trying to. I was trying to snowboard on my shoes coming down. It was a really bad idea. Actually, it got snow right into my feet. But but there's this 4 h workshop about the future.
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David Rock: That, you know, we we, with some really fascinating people, musicians and artists and Ceos and venture capital people and
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David Rock: investors. And all this stuff really an interesting session with about, I think there was about 80 of us. You know, workshopping different visions of the future and trying to understand it from the perspective of technology, from wellbeing, from healthcare. And then, you know, producing white papers of you know better possible visions of the future. This kind of thing. Now you could say it's all a talk fest. But actually.
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David Rock: you know, like things start with insights. Right? Good good things start with an idea. And there's a lot of, you know, really powerful
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David Rock: ideas, you know, generated there. So you know, there's a lot about the future, a lot about AI. There were definitely some crypto, you know, there was definitely a crypto theme. I didn't go to that. I'm not necessarily involved in that world but but that was definitely there as well. So lots of crypto, lots of AI, lots of the future, lots of sustainability.
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David Rock: And and then, just, you know, creativity and innovation overall. Those are sort of some of the themes, but literally 500 talks. And you need amazingly good walking shoes, incredible patience and a deep sense of humor
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David Rock: to survive this week. I think my funniest moment was I was finishing a talk, had to get down to get a badge, so I could get into the sort of higher level places where the Prime Ministers, whatever were there was a you had to have this badge. It was a whole process, and, you know, went to get this badge. Came out of a talk
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David Rock: going to the badge. Someone gives me instructions, really, confidently. This is where the badge is, points it on a map. All this great. So I walk 25 min in the snow. Get this badge. I get really close. I'm like
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David Rock: this isn't the badge place.
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David Rock: I run into someone I know. They point me the right direction, which was 25 min back the other way.
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David Rock: Which ended up being 2 min from where I was, and on the way I had to take a taxi to get around an area, and the taxi dropped me somewhere completely random. That got me even more lost. It was hilarious. And so you just have to have a sense of humor. And then I got to the bad place, and the strangest thing happened was,
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David Rock: that I met these incredible people in the line for the badge right. And and and I actually had to go back the next day as well, because there was a complication. So I went to the badge line twice. It's like an hour waiting in a line right like the post office. So I end up in the line twice for an hour, and each time I go. I meet these incredible people
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David Rock: that literally defined my week like they come to my talk. Now I go to their talk. Now we're collaborating on things. I'm still trying to work out was like the universe colliding, or if I went at any time, would I just meet awesome people? I think it's the latter. There's so many interesting people up to such cool things here. It's the biggest like concentration of kind of passionate, you know. Change agents I've ever seen
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David Rock: thousands and thousands and thousands of passionate change agents up to really really cool things, you know, across just so much inspiration, a lot of inspiration. At the same time, you know, the dark side of it was like.
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David Rock: it's so expensive to be here.
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David Rock: The people feel like they have to hustle, and and if you if you're hosting a session, you know. I went to several galas that were amazing in theory, but you got there, and they were like
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David Rock: like sponsor after sponsor, after sponsor for 3 h like talking over dinner at you. And I'm like they just jammed the sessions with sponsors because it's so insanely expensive to be here. But you know, if you're a change agent, or you're just really interested in in sort of
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David Rock: getting a pulse on the positive things happening in the world. It was a surprisingly optimistic and positive place. You can hear it in the energy. I was really surprised by that sort of counterbalance, I guess to a bunch of economists and presidents. It's really a festival of positive ideas about changing the world.
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David Rock: And the tens of thousands of people here to kind of collaborate on that and work together on that and then stay out very late at the end of the day as well. So I'm just I don't know. By Tuesday I wasn't sure I was gonna make it. So I'm I'm amazed that I've survived. So that's that's devos for you. Recommend it. I'll probably come back next year.
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Emma Sarro: That's amazing. It's so good to hear. And I mean so many thoughts coming up. But one is just this idea of of insight, generation and diversity of thought right? I mean, you wouldn't have
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Emma Sarro: this kind of diversity of thought and experiences in most other places. And also you're in a space where you can really focus on it. And you're not, you know, trying to get other things done. You really, if you're there, you're making the commitment to go. You're going to be focused on the ideas, the people. And so you literally wouldn't have these kinds of insights and ideas in any other place, just because of the diversity of individuals and experiences there.
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David Rock: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You know. I was in a circle last night on top of a mountain with there was a sheikh from Kuwait, you know, from the Royal family. There was someone running an incredible project for women, you know, for empowering women in the Middle East. There was someone else doing an incredible environmental project. There was someone doing amazing things in education. There was someone else doing. You know, there was like literally 30 people. We went around the circle.
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David Rock: 30 people, every one of them doing, you know, really, really awesome, interesting things, and then the other, you know, the other flavor. It was interesting is a lot of investors here. So a lot of family office. I guess I didn't mention that trend, a lot of family office people. And so a lot of you know, wealthy families have a family office. They're sending people here to like look for opportunities and a lot of impact investing. So a lot of companies thinking about
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David Rock: a lot of investors thinking about, how do I make money and do good? And there's a lot of sessions about impact investing and kind of impact investors trying to meet with, you know others. So it was a lot of hustle. It was exhausting and overwhelming, but actually very optimistic. At the end of it. Really, you know, I think it was something, you know, quite beautiful.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, absolutely. And the drive that that everyone feels leaving right? You know what? What's the next thing that you're going to jump into? So it kind of brings me to this idea of you hosted a futures panel, or you were on one. What was that.
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David Rock: I was involved in quite a few different sessions. I was invited to speak, so I was involved in a futures panel which was kind of talking about. Well, we actually worked as a group of people generating possible futures. And then I presented on some of my perspectives, on how we think better about the future. I also hosted a session
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David Rock: called the Neuroscience of Change in the World, and we gathered about 25 really interesting change agents thinking about, you know. What does it really take? If you are a passionate change agent trying to do something? What should you know about the brain? Some themes. If you've been following us for a while, you will have heard of. But but it was really fascinating talking about this in that context, but probably the most inspiring
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David Rock: session for me it's probably 2, 2 most inspiring things. One was I did this workshop for a group of teenagers. There was about 15 of them. It was like it sort of happened. I was invited. Someone met me and said, Hey, I've got this group of teenagers. We get them sponsored to come. Here they were from all over the world, from China, from southeast Asia, from the Us. From Europe. They were sort of from all over, and they were like future leaders. It was kind of a future leaders.
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David Rock: Event. And this amazing, passionate woman, April was, you know, running this event and kind of getting these kids sponsored and trying to get them together. And they were going to all these different talks to learn about. You know the world right as a teenager ranging, you know, ages ranging up to about 20. So it was.
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David Rock: It was a
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David Rock: it was a it was. I've never actually talked to teenagers for heaven for a very, very long time since I've been kind of developing this research. And I ended up giving this 2 h workshop about
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David Rock: basically as a teenager. While your brain is developing, you know you can go and learn an instrument. You'll be much faster to learn it, you know, than if you wait till you're 20 something or a language, right? Because there's this plasticity. But it's like, if you want to be a person that you know does something about the world like a person that influences the world, a person that you can call it a leader.
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David Rock: I'm not necessarily meaning in a corporate sense, but you want to be someone who makes change in the world. If you're a passionate advocate for positive change in the world, what should you do to train your brain while you're a teenager.
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David Rock: What kind of skills should you be honing? And what should you know about your brain if you're trying to build yourself as someone who's going to be of influence later. It was a it was a really fun. I say, fun! It's a banal way. It was a deep, deep conversation, and I can't go into sort of all of it. But it was it was very
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David Rock: was very much about like, really you know if you're going to create change, you're literally going to step into a threat response and create a threat response in other people. And it's so much about learning to control your threat response. And and, you know, keep yourself in a towards state, even when you're like
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David Rock: doing something that's really threatening, you know, and just speaking up. You know there's there were some people who were just not used to speaking up at all, you know, speaking up and saying, I want change in the world. It's a big thing you face a lot of threat. So we talked a lot about like the mechanisms of building better self regulation as a teenager, while you have the capacity to build that. And we talked a lot about scarf as well. The 5 domains of social experience and
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David Rock: kind of how to, you know, worked out all their scarf profiles. And it was really it was a beautiful session. I was really moved. I might write something about it, and it was sort of an unexpected pleasure to to be in that conversation. It was like talking to myself, you know, 40 something 40, something years ago.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, I think about this often just the opportunities you have as a younger self to develop these motion regulation strategies which can be better developed when you're younger, when everything is a bit more plastic, right? It kind of offers an opportunity. And what an opportunity for these individuals to be there, seeing what it's like to change the future, to throw out changes and talk about it and brainstorm it, and come away with like real action plans.
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David Rock: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, to someone's question, to Rob's question there were indigenous populations represented quite a few. There were a lot of people there advocating, you know, from the Amazon, advocating for what's happening there and trying to create change. There are people from many, many indigenous populations that were there and represented. And there were, you know, there were activists. There was, you know, green paint thrown at the Amazon headquarters, you know, that was there, and there was, you know, people blocking rows or activists, you know there as well of various types.
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David Rock: and you know there were some people that were pretty mad. And then, you know, in the midst of it all, you know, trump comes along to to say his things, and there was there was, you know, roadblocks, and you know all that kind of crazy stuff. So it was. You know, it's a mix of things. But I think on the whole,
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David Rock: there's a lot more positive stuff happening in the world than we realized. That was my insight. And there's a huge number of people working really, really hard on some very important and high impact things, and we don't hear about them. You know why? Because bad things stick in the brain. More
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David Rock: bad things get more attention, bad things get more focus. It's much easier to get people talking about them. So you know, we're very focused on all the negative. And there was, you know it's definitely been some tough news this week, depending on your politics some people. It was a great week.
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David Rock: so you know, a challenging week for both sides of the political spectrum in some ways. But on the whole, there's a much bigger grassroots of people working to make the world a better place than I realize that's for sure.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, I mean and change in general, that I think the last week, if anything, was just rapid change, and so that in general is just going to just kind of strike everyone with a bit of uncertainty, a little bit of like sense of threat. So I think that's like so so positive to hear that there's a bit more of like a solutions focused optimism that's coming out of this. And with individuals that might have the means to be able to make some changes, and that's.
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David Rock: Yeah.
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David Rock: and a lot of collaborations, you know, a lot of projects funded a lot of, you know, collaborations formed a lot of really cool things. And yeah, of course, there's a lot of song and dance, so to speak, that won't go anywhere. But but there's also these like nuggets of gold that were created, and and a lot of them started, you know, as you're saying with you know, with with an insight that came from, you know, having the space to have insight, and then being surrounded by very diverse populations, and really diverse across the across the socioeconomic levels.
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David Rock: diverse in terms of countries diverse in terms of kinds of work, types of thinking, very, very big melting pot. So I think ultimately, the World Economic Forum is actually very little, or Davos in January, much less about the World Economic Forum, and much more about the 500 other events happening across the week, and all the networking and collaboration that happens on the side of it. I actually think that's where all the the amazing things are are really are really going on.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think in general, like, we think about the conditions for insight. Those are the conditions for insight, even just like the walking in between sessions, the collection, the opportunity just to like, throw out ideas and have a new way of looking at the world. Some good questions in the chat, too, the positivity and negativity. And like how it impacts policy. Was there anything about that
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Emma Sarro: like.
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David Rock: I didn't go to those kinds of talks that you know there was probably there. There was a lot of talks about ethics. There's a lot of talks about what to do about kids and technology. I know there's a lot of really thoughtful sessions. I mean to describe it. There's like about a mile long, kind of promenade. And on each side of the road, basically, these big companies take over these, you know, shops or shopping malls whatever, and make it into. You know Microsoft House and Saudi Arabia House and
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David Rock: all these other things, and then you'll see. Oh, house of trust! And it's like a whole experience about that, or house of of equality, you know, Quality House and all this stuff. One of the most beautiful pieces of art I saw. Here was a musician who created a song out of 185 women saying the word equality.
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David Rock: to video, and really, clearly, beautifully, in their native language.
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David Rock: It was really it was a really beautiful thing, and we'll share that. I actually got the access to that. I'm going to share that we'll send that out afterwards. It's a really beautiful thing. And there's a version that's actually like, kind of a really nice chill, you know, hip, hop, kind of music version and just a clean version. It's really inspiring to hear this. You know the word equality in 1 85 different languages.
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David Rock: You get a just all women saying it. To camera. Really, clearly, the word really clear. It's just like, Wow, there's a lot of different cultures in the world that we are not, you know, conscious of.
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David Rock: And so yeah, I'll share that. We'll share that out. Might take a couple hours to get that handled. But we'll share that out to the group that are here afterwards. It's just it's just been released. So it's, you know, some inspiring art, some inspiring music. But I think the relationships that were built where the real change comes from the collaboration and the things that were funded, relationships built and the things that were funded, I think, is is really what's there? Because, you know, funding.
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David Rock: I think there is a change coming, a lot more money going into impact, investing, impact investing is investing that aims to do good while making a return. So both, there's some serious money going into that now through family offices. And it's a really interesting and optimistic to see that trend, that trend starting to happen.
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Emma Sarro: That's amazing. So would you say, just to answer Maritza's question to us is the like most positive impact on the world that you're kind of like most excited about coming out of that. Would that be one of the biggest trends that you're seeing.
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David Rock: Yeah, I think so. I mean, it was one of them. I think. So. I I just I was optimistic by the number of just really good projects that are out there doing, you know, really good work at a at a grassroots or global level. That was.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah.
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David Rock: That's you know. That was there for sure.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, alright. So the theme was collaboration in an intelligent age.
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David Rock: Well, I that I mean, that was definitely there. I I probably wanted to talk about the session that I did, and sort of the theme of this
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David Rock: of this event, which is the neuroscience of changing the world.
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David Rock: Because I think that's a really, maybe they'll answer sort of some of people's question as well. But you know, collaboration, intelligent age definitely, the whole week was a lot about collaboration was a lot about AI was a lot about technology. And you know, AI was absolutely everywhere. But you know, there were just as many actual workshops about impact investing or about the planet in different ways. So even though AI was a big theme, and you know, sort of the intelligent age, I don't think it was the only game in town at all. I think there was a lot more interesting things. But
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David Rock: you know the main game in town was people trying to create positive change?
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David Rock: Right? People, you know, passionate change agents saying, I want things to be different. And early in the week I ran a session called the Neuroscience of Change in the world, which which was was great. To do that earlier. I got to kind of set things up in my own mind and makes a lot of great connections and wanted to thank Alex Azi, who's a friend and collaborator. Who's got some fantastic technology
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David Rock: for helping me set that up. But the it was a really interesting workshop, but I'm happy to dig into that. If you think that's we should spend some time on that.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, yeah, let's talk about it. Like, what is the neuroscience change in the world?
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David Rock: Yeah, I mean, I'm still working on it. Obviously, it's a big question. It's a big question. But you know, I want to sort of come at it from a few angles. Firstly, like
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David Rock: positive changes happen. And in fact, we ran a salon on this years ago. About
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David Rock: what? Like reverse engineering, positive movements, not imagining what you need. But but when you look at something that changed and it really changed, what did it right and
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David Rock: what was interesting, and this was a few years ago now, but I think it's still very relevant. What happened was, people could see something differently like literally their occipital lobe lit up with a picture that they hadn't seen before, and that picture inspired them to take action.
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David Rock: Often the action was just basically something different to what the picture was, but it kind of inspired them to have their own insight
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David Rock: right? So they saw a picture of something they'd never seen before. Usually a positive picture.
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David Rock: You know, very, very positive picture. And they'd be inspired by that, and they'd do something that was the same or similar, you know, have their own insight. So so every time something really big and moving happened in the world, it sort of started with people having a vision
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David Rock: and a picture of seeing this new reality. That's a little vague in general, but that's that's what we saw. And so what this means is that people are having having an insight moment, and in our language it's at least a level. 4 insight, and it's possibly a level 5 insight, right? So the Eureka scale, remember. So there's the Eureka scale is a 5 point scale, a 5 on the Eureka scale is something. You remember your whole life. You structure your world around it. You structure your life around it, your career, your
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David Rock: relationship, whatever. But it's a deep insight that changes how you see the world. Right? A level 4 is something that when you have it you're very motivated, and you absolutely do something differently. But it's not necessarily changing your whole life. But you're very motivated by that. A 3 is something that's like interesting. Maybe you'll do it. Maybe you won't right. And a 2 is sort of doesn't pack a lot of energy and a 1 is, you've sort of started the insight process. But you haven't had an insight yet.
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David Rock: It's like, you see, someone, and you don't know how you know them, but you know you know them as a bit of that this week, anyway. So that's the Eureka scale. So I think what happens when positive change happens is clearly people are having
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David Rock: you know, level 4 and level 5 insights. And
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David Rock: so this is one of the things to understand. And I said to this group of people, You may not realize it, but you're all in the business of generating the strongest possible insight for people. So so you know, really helpful to understand how that happens, and having space, you know, gives the brain more quiet. That helps you notice quiet signals, helps them come through. We've written a lot about that. And obviously being in diverse conversations with diverse people
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David Rock: helps a lot. But a lot of it is about having space, and then we sort of being involved in other kinds of conversations. So I think part of it is, people have insight. So if you're trying to change the world. You're trying to create level 4 and 5 insights for people I love the session we did on insight a month or 2 ago with Christine Chesborough. Let's put that one in the chat at some point. It's such an interesting podcast. About the foundational science of insight itself.
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David Rock: Kind of walking through our. Do you know, we've been working on insight for 21 years we've been studying the science of insight and publishing papers. So there's a lot to say about it. But that's that was one chunk. You're in the insight generation business. If you're in the, you know, save the planet business, you're in the insight generation business. That was sort of, you know. One of the 1st things.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah.
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David Rock: The second thing is the real challenge. When you got to give someone an insight.
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David Rock: You got to tell someone about your passionate idea you got this great idea to, you know. Save the rainforest, or save whatever like you have this passionate, amazingly important idea. You go and tell people about it. What happens is without realizing it, you accidentally create an away response for that person.
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David Rock: Because you're essentially, you know, you're telling this person. You got all this passion. You know all this sort of evangelistic energy. You're essentially, unconsciously saying that what the person's currently doing isn't okay. And they're sort of, you know, crazy, just continuing and not seeing this idea right or mean, or stupid, or lazy, or you know, there's this sort of unconscious thing. If you don't get on board. There's something wrong with you. Right?
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David Rock: That's called a status threat. You create a status threat. And people they shut down. So you know, when you're passionate about a project, and it's really hard because some projects really are incredibly important.
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David Rock: you know, incredibly important. It's really hard not to be passionate about it and try to almost shake people. Hey, wake up! You got to get on board with this idea, you know. There's an idea I saw here that could completely transform the entire fossil fuel industry, the energy production completely solve the world's energy crisis. You know, people involved. It's really hard not to shake people and say
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David Rock: you got to do this right. But you get a status threat. You also get an autonomy threat, right? People feel like you're telling them what to do, and you get shut down right? You get an away response. So you're in a towards state passionate about your idea. You accidentally put people in an away state. It's really hard for people with amazing ideas not to do that right. Or instead of that, what they do is they try to create fear about all the things that are going to go wrong if they don't do something about this right? And and then people shut down as well.
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David Rock: So it's it's really hard. When you've got a great idea, an important idea idea. You're really passionate about. You kind of have to swallow your passion and find a really clever creative way of giving people insights and for them to feel like
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David Rock: it was their own idea as well. Because then you get an increase in autonomy or an increase in status and now you can have a shared goal and increase your relatedness. So so there's just there's a lot of that. And I saw a lot of people sort of trying to shake folks like and not realizing they're creating a threat response. And and they're not creating insight. So the thing there is that the more threat, the less insight, right? So
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David Rock: so you got to create this toward response. And somehow, you know, create the conditions for insight. So I think those are sort of 2 really, really important foundations. The 1st thing is, you're in the business. If you're a change agent. You're in the business of creating insights, strong insights. And the second thing is, you can't do that by being passionate and kind of going out there evangelizing. You've got to find other ways
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David Rock: of actually doing this and and and part of that other way. There's sort of a couple of things one is creating pictures. So people really can understand with very little effort
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David Rock: like, understand with high fluency what it is that you see. Right? You need to be you know, you want people to see what you see. The thing is that that passionate change agents basically see things that are not there yet.
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David Rock: Right leaders do that change? Agents do that? Like all the people here trying to trying to change the world.
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David Rock: they can see something that everyone else can't see. Do you know? What do you know? Do you know, like what the definition of seeing something that isn't there is like when you see something that is in there. That is another definition. I won't be rude about it and but, like, you know, people go to a psychiatrist when they see things that are not there right? There's like something wrong with you. It's not there. Why are you saying this? Right? And so you gotta have a lot of courage.
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David Rock: You have a lot of courage when you see something that isn't there, you've got to have a lot of courage to kind of talk about it and not have. People think that there's something wrong with you, and you've got to be able to manage your own threat response. A lot
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David Rock: right? You got to be able to manage your own threat. Response, as you, you know, share these ideas. But ultimately, what you really need to do is create a picture in people's minds. You want people to have this image of what you see.
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David Rock: And and I think that's where all the work goes is, how do you create a picture. So how do you tell a story? A lot of it's storytelling right? The brain, the brain's natural language is characters interacting with each other in time and space.
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David Rock: So how do we create a story about? You know your idea, paint pictures, create images, and then have people see it, or, you know, take an existing idea and tweak it slightly. Show how just you're taking this idea, and you just tweak it slightly. And then people can understand it. So those are some of the big things. You're an insight generator. You're
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David Rock: You've got to watch creating threat responses. You want to create images, and you have to really manage your own self regulation to do this. And then.
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David Rock: you know, we also dug into sort of the biggest factor for change is this perception that everyone's doing something
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David Rock: right. This perception that it's really important comes from this feeling that everyone's doing it. And you know, and close to that, is this feeling like really important people are doing it. So everyone wants to get, you know, Beyonce involved in their campaign, because then it's got credibility, and then everyone will do it. So you're trying to link status to it. And you're trying to link this perspective
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David Rock: of everyone's doing this, which has been shown in many, many studies to be the number. One reason people do something is they feel like it's normative. It's you know what everyone's having. So those are some of the things that we dug into in that workshop and kind of digging, in explaining how you actually activate those. So I think for people trying to change the world. It's helpful to understand the brain and to realize its limitations.
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David Rock: In terms of just how hard it is to get people to understand new ideas work with those limitations, you know, really work on your fluency, your storytelling focus on creating insight, focus on minimizing threat and creating this perception that everyone's actually involved in it. Those are some of the sort of cliff notes of that session.
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Emma Sarro: Oh, so interesting, I mean, 1st of all, it seems like, if you want to change the world, it's not easy, like you might have this amazing idea. You're driven by it. You're excited by it. But every way that it seems like you're describing how people kind of choose to share, that is all of these persuasion techniques. Right? They're trying to convince them with, like the negative outlook, or how excited they are telling them what to do. Or, you know, sharing their.
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Emma Sarro: But all of those things kind of do the wrong thing right, and instead, you kind of want to go and take the back the back route to how do you? How do you get them to have their own insight about the same thing that you're having an insight about, or something very similar just to get their excitement and motivation up. So you know, communicating well, in a way that paints that same picture. But maybe asking questions around these possible outcomes, so that
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Emma Sarro: the other person has the same insight. Maybe it's a slightly different right? Because we all have our own insights, but it gets people moving in the same direction.
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Emma Sarro: Right? So kind of, you know, controlling that, and also that that status threat or that regulation around that potentially, this person doesn't have the same insight as you, or they have a different idea than you. It comes up with a different solution, right? Because these these ideas that change the world are going to be novel. They're going to be risky, probably, and so others might not have the same kind of idea as you. So it's kind of like, how do you like take the backdoor into, you know, having them have their own insight when you communicate it.
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David Rock: Yeah, it's it's it's a real challenge. Because sometimes the more important and impactful an idea is, the more people will resist it.
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David Rock: the more an idea will really change the world. I will really do something big. The more people will say, no, that's too much. And you know there was a study about change. And 25% of people actively campaign against changes, even when they're going to be fundamentally positive for them.
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David Rock: Like, they just say, no, they just don't want to. People just don't like change. You know, the book who moved my cheese has solved something like 26 million copies. It's just about some mice not being happy that people move cheese. It's like, it's so telling that the basic fact that we just don't like simple changes is, you know, solved so many things. So I think that's the other challenge is that is that almost like the more important your idea is, the more pushback you get
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David Rock: and and the sort of harder you have to work at telling a story. And all that. And you know, it's it's a really interesting challenge. I will say just one person's comment that that a lot of the sessions actually are streamed a lot of technology. Many, many of them are recorded. Many, many of them are streamed. There was a community called Undavos
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David Rock: which is it? Hosts? Lots and lots and lots of different events. You know the future of health, the future of money, that impact investing many hundreds of different events happened around this kind of undavos community. Most of those things are both reported and streamed. And so I think you'll find if you look stuff up. There's a lot online that's actually was streamed live this week, or you know, and has been recorded. It's really quite remarkable.
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David Rock: The technology is there. And we saw a lot of AI summarizing talks and suddenly being available, like the you know, the AI summary people sending in their AI bot to record for them in a virtual environment and summarize for them. And you know all this stuff is coming really, really fast. But I think, you know, going back to sort of the workshop that I did. I think that if you are a change agent.
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David Rock: and maybe going back to the teenagers, you know you prepare yourself. It's a tough road. You're going to deal with a lot of threat. You're going to deal with a lot of resistance. You've got to manage your own. You've really got to manage your own emotions very, very well to ironically. Not be passionate about your idea.
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David Rock: and find these clever ways of helping people see what you see where you don't get this resistance, and at the same time be incredibly energetic and enthusiastic, and never give up.
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David Rock: It's there's a lot of but it was. It was really lovely to be surrounded by so many passionate people up to really awesome things. I think it gave me a really optimistic perspective on the world that maybe a lot of other people are not having if they're not here, and I know there's, you know, plenty of challenges in the world whether you're in la or you're in politics, or you're in all sorts of places mentally, you know. Difficult week. But there's some, you know, also some good
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David Rock: things happening in the world. All of it's true. All of it's true. Just kind of depends where you focus.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, I mean, and ultimately, we think a lot about change management. Right? And this is, you know, changing people's behavior is a small part of what you're all talking about this week. Right? How do we? How do we make large changes, same as how do you? How do you get people to, you know, try new behaviors. Even trying something new is a bit, you know, threat inducing
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Emma Sarro: that way.
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Emma Sarro: And so, being patient with people kind of jumping onto the idea and having, you know, ideas that are similar. But you know, you know, might might be a slightly different insight. But yeah, that's a hard thing to do to convince others, to change.
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David Rock: So one of the insights I had this week, and I'm not like don't hold me to it yet. I've got to do some more research. But I was thinking a lot about the idea you and I've been bouncing around, you know, as head of research. And we've been kind of talking about this idea of a habit summit, because there's no like. There's no like
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David Rock: like architecture. Conceptual architecture for studying human behavior change through the lens of habits right? How many habits can you change at once? How big do they have to be? How long do they take? What is it correct to take one. How do you measure them? How do we define them? And so we've been thinking a lot about this concept of sort of a habit summit about really bringing all the different perspectives into this concept of how do we help people build habits better? How do we help?
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David Rock: You know individuals who are changing the world create those habits? And how do we do that inside organizations as well? And I know we've got an incredible amount of data. Now, I think it's about 50,000 people we've been studying now about habits. So you know, one of my thoughts was, you know, maybe we'll run a habit summit here next year bring together some some practitioners and scientists, and say, Let's really build a proper discipline
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David Rock: for this concept of habits, because the way positive change happens also. And I didn't say, this is priorities, habits and systems. And ultimately, you know, change agents massively over index on the priority stage of basically trying to get people to care
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David Rock: right. Everyone says if we just get people to care, everything would change. But there's about 30 years of research showing that getting people to care is just table stakes. It doesn't really do much. You actually have to do the work of building the habits.
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David Rock: But there's really no good science. I almost think of it, like architecture. Architecture has rules right? Like load, you know. Load bearing walls have to be a certain size, and you can't, you know, like there's mathematics involved in architecture, right? And any kind of change project is really a kind of architecture. You're trying to architect something inside
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David Rock: people's heads right? And and for that you need like a lot of coherence between the ideas. But there's no rules of thumb, no benchmarking, no, nothing about how you really build habits? You know literally, how many, how many at a time, how complex they need to be? How long do you need to focus on all that stuff. There's some great books out there, I know, Charles, with the power of habits and great books out there, atomic habits.
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David Rock: you know. There's some great research out there on how an individual builds habits. Better. Cliff note, make them incredibly simple. Something you can do in a few minutes, something that ties to existing other things that it kind of becomes automatic, you know, if you have a stairwell and there's a spot you can do a chin up
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David Rock: trying to achieve every time you go up and down the stairwell. And now you've got to have it right? So a lot of good stuff there about sort of how you make habits a priority which is ironic and a lot of those books kind of describe individual level habit activation, which is good. But what I'm talking about is, hey? If you're trying to make.
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David Rock: let's say, 7 billion people more conscious of the environment, how would you do that? Just throwing that out there, right? What do we know about habits that could help us define habits at a global level? Or you're just trying to make, you know, a city more healthy. Maybe you're in the Middle East. Maybe you're trying to make a city more environmental. You've got the funds, the budget, the thinking. How do we? How do we get a whole city to be both healthier, happier? You know all this stuff?
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David Rock: What can we know about? So that was kind of one of my ideas is sort of starting to build a real methodology for the concept of habits, because ultimately positive change happens, not just because we make that some idea of priority. And because you know, Beyonce is doing it. And you think everyone's doing it, but because you actually go out and start building this new way of living as a habit. And then the systems all support this. So
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David Rock: so that's sort of one of the big, you know big takeaways, so I can't promise. It looks like there's some positive support for it. But I think it's something that we're thinking about. If we don't do it at Davos. Maybe we'll do it somewhere, but I think a habit summit could be a really interesting thing to work on this year.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, absolutely. Because, because, like, you're saying, you know, habits for yourself are one thing, but habits over many people at the rate that we need to be building them, you know, when new people are turning over and coming in like that kind of change is is a different kind of science, and and we've done it really well. But we haven't really totally kind of like synthesized and put it out there and talked about it because we do it. And we.
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David Rock: Measure.
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Emma Sarro: And it works well.
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David Rock: At scale. We've got the biggest data set of anyone about building habits at scale and looking at that from lots of different variables. But there's so much more that we can say about human habits. So you know, we'll see if we can do something about that. Oh, the other thing I didn't mention is, you know, I heard a lot about AI, and how AI could really help people on the fly do all this stuff. And I'm like, Oh, yeah, we already built that. It's called Niles
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David Rock: neuro, intelligent leadership enhancing system. And oh, yeah, we have this AI that you can actually use as a coach today to give you the most incredible insights directly. And so I was talking a little bit about Niles and showing it to people and giving it to some folks. That was that was definitely fun as well. Which just reminds me, you know, before we wrap up we'll wrap up a couple of minutes. Let's just put the poll up. So we know how folks want to
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David Rock: kind of support us. What's in the poll, Emma? Maybe you can kind of walk through that, and then we'll come back to this. This conversation.
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Emma Sarro: What? What is in the poll? Well, we we have a bunch of stuff. And I already forgotten about leadership development. I know we're running brain based facilitation workshop coming up in February. You and I are running that together. I know that we've been talking a lot about like learning audits at organizations, some of our previous sessions. So we have that if you want to learn more about that in line with the changing behaviors and habit building. We we do leadership principles with organizations
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Emma Sarro: very successfully. And so if you want to learn more about that, we have that as well, so those are the.
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David Rock: Yeah, the brain, the brain. Sorry interrupt you. The brain based design and facilitation, I guess, is super relevant to what we're talking about here. It's it's for practitioners inside organizations. But it's it's a program. We're running, virtually coming up in a few weeks. Actually, there's 3 virtual sessions. But in real time with colleagues, and it's literally how to design and deliver any kind of change or learning initiative in a brain friendly way. So like, how do you really facilitate insight? But also.
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David Rock: how do you really hold attention? And how do you do that? In all different kinds of formats? So brain-based design and facilitation is coming up. That's a big one. The other thing actually, I was talking about was the lead, which is our 6 month
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David Rock: leadership program. That's completely. Digital. And we're we're just finishing our 1st year of getting that out there. It's it's going out to some really interesting organizations. So lead is the other thing that you can check out. And individuals can actually register for that.
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David Rock: Anyone can sign up for that. And you actually get access to Niles as part of that, so you'll be able to use our AI, which is trained on all our work, including it'll coach you really powerfully. So you get Niles as part of the lead solution. So I think that's in the chat as well. So lead as an individual. You can actually test that out. Go on that 6 month journey. It's a really amazing journey, I warn you. You'll never be the same. You'll know all this stuff about your brain that will make you just a different person.
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David Rock: If you go through that journey it's quite a. It's quite a cool thing. So those are. Yeah, those are some of the things. I see some people clicking the poll about different ways to to get involved, Emma, we'll let people go in a couple of minutes. But what are your insights as we start to wrap up? What are you reflecting on there as our head of research? What's jumping out for you?
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Emma Sarro: Yeah.
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David Rock: Like go to Davos next year.
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Emma Sarro: I know I'll wait and ask that after. But I mean this. This kind of event like excites me just in thinking about all of the conferences that I've been to. This is kind of like an amplified version of that. How excited you are when you leave! How many collaborations you have kind of like planned as you as you leave, and I can't wait to hear about. You know what kind of ideas that you have that you want to kind of jump into. But thinking about, you know.
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Emma Sarro: changing positive change. And we think about that all the time. But at the scale that you were kind of exposed to is exciting to me what were the big insights? And I love the idea of like how do you? How do you inspire others to change. If you have this great idea.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, yep.
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David Rock: Yeah, how do you hold back your enthusiasm? Not sound like an evangelist, and just somehow give people those insights. There's an art to that there's a real art to that, and something that we're constantly exploring how to teach in our work as well. So let's yeah, let's let people get back to things there, but thanks so much for hosting Ariel and Emma. Thanks for a great conversation. It's been an amazing week.
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David Rock: I managed to fit in some snowboarding there. In the in the because Davos is a ski town. I managed to get myself in terrible trouble several times, having to climb up a mountain to get out, and I was following the powder way. Too much ended up in some some scary ravines, and but lovely lovely to be out in the in the mountain and the fresh air and enjoying that, but thanks everyone for being here. Really appreciate you and
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David Rock: thanks, Emma and the team for this and look forward to to to coming back. I think I'm traveling for a couple of weeks. We've got some amazing sessions coming up. I think we have Janet and next week.
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Emma Sarro: Next week. It's gonna be a great session. Yeah, absolutely.
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David Rock: If you've never heard from Kenji Yoshino, and you're interested in Dei, and how to continue that work. Be there. Kenji Yoshino is the most thoughtful researcher about Dei and the legal aspect of Dei as well. He's actually a lawyer. He runs a huge practice about that. So that's with Janet Stobel, our head of Dei. So Janet and Kenji are going to be talking about Dei in this environment. And what we're seeing is something like 85% of companies maintaining or
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David Rock: deepening their commitment to Dei in this environment. So talk to talk to Janet and Kenji next week at this time. And I'll see you guys back back in a few weeks as well. Thanks so much. Everyone. Take care, bye, bye.
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Emma Sarro: And thanks all, and I'm just gonna hand it back over to Ariel. Thank you very much.
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Ariel Roldan: Thank you so much for today's discussion. We appreciate your time and all that you've shared today.
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Ariel Roldan: Now for closing. If you haven't already, please take a look at our poll, and let us know how Nli can help you in the future. That Poll will stay up for a few more moments. As I share some announcements. First, st we have our brain-based design and facilitation workshop for anyone looking to amplify how they
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Ariel Roldan: design learning whether it's virtual, live, and in person or asynchronous. This workshop will provide you with an inside. Look into how we use a brain-based approach to our own design. The next event like this will begin February 12th as a virtual workshop over 3 separate sessions, and we'll be likely to host one near you in person soon.
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Ariel Roldan: Next, we have our C-suite brain lab for C-level or senior executives looking to get an inside look into their own brain as they learn the critical habits for leaders. We are designing a three-day brain lab of effective habit activation seminars and real-time Eeg, scanning participants, will walk away with insights into their own brain as it faces, complex challenges.
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Ariel Roldan: Next, we have our insider exchange specifically for senior executives. If you enjoy your brain at work, live, you'll love our Nli insider program. We invite you to join this exclusive opportunity, where you can enjoy benefits such as 1st looks at new research, roundtable discussions with leading executives and researchers, and helping Us. Craft, new innovations at work to apply, follow the link shared in the chat
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Ariel Roldan: next, our podcast if you enjoyed today's conversation, you'll love, the podcast show. So make sure, you subscribe. You can hear the past. Friday webinars on demand. Look for your brain at work. Wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts, like spotify. Now this is where we officially say farewell for the week on behalf of today's guests, the Nli team behind the scenes. Thanks again for joining us. We'll see you back here same time next week.
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Ariel Roldan: Bye.