Your Brain at Work Live is kicking off the year with a new season and a look at the latest trends to watch in leadership development, a spin off of David Rock’s latest article published in Fast Company. We closed out the year with the staggering realization that change around us is exponentially increasing – 33% in just last year alone. From the volatile state of hybrid work to AI transformations and global polarization, change is likely to continue into 2025. In order to keep up, leaders have had the challenge of adapting just as fast and many are struggling, with 71% of CEOs reporting suffering from imposter syndrome. Whether leaders are able to meet the future challenges head on and turn them into opportunities depends in a large part on their development. This session will explore the key tools to leadership development, from the individual mindsets to embrace to the cultures that can be embedded.
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Ariel Roldan: Back to another.
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Ariel Roldan: Your brain network live. I'm your host, Arielle Roldan. Happy New Year! We're excited to kick this off with you for our regulars. We're happy to have you back. And for our newcomers welcome. We're excited to have you here with us today. In this episode, we'll discuss the challenges facing leadership today and the need to improve how we develop our leaders. As always, neuroscience provides the foundation for successful development.
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Ariel Roldan: Now, as I quickly share some housekeeping notes drop in the chat or in the comment box on Social, and let us know where you're joining in from today.
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Ariel Roldan: We suggest you put your phone on, do not disturb and quit your email and messaging apps. So you can get the most out of the show today, and it helps with the quality of the audio and video, and we love interaction. So feel free to share your thoughts and comments in the chat
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Ariel Roldan: time to introduce our speakers. For today. Our 1st guest, you all know him well, coined the term neural leadership when he co-founded Nli over 2 decades ago with a professional doctorate, 4 successful books under his name, and a multitude of bylines ranging from the Harvard Business Review to the New York Times, and many more a warm welcome for co-founder and CEO of the Neural Leadership Institute, Dr. David Rock.
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Ariel Roldan: Thanks for being.
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David Rock: Thanks, Ariel, good to be here with you.
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Ariel Roldan: And our moderator for today holds a Phd in neuroscience from New York University. She leads the research team at the Neuro Leadership Institute, where she focuses on translating cognitive and social neuroscience into actionable solutions for organizations. A warm welcome to the senior Director of Research at Nli. Dr. Emma Saro. Thanks for being here today, Emma, and passing it over to you.
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Emma Sarro: Thanks, Ariel, it's great to be here with you. Hey, David? Happy New Year!
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David Rock: Indeed great to be back with you.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, yeah. Happy New Year to all of you so excited to see all of these chats coming in. We love a lot of interaction. So, David, I'm going to give you a little bit of a plug. You recently published the 2025 leadership trends in a fast company, and I'd love to have that dropped in the chat if we could.
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Emma Sarro: It was great laid out. Several challenges leaders are likely to face this year. I encourage all of you to read it. One of the things that stood out for me the most was really more so than just even the trends
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Emma Sarro: was the finding that a corn fairy study that came out 71% of Ceos report suffering from imposter syndrome meaning, they question their efficacy or ability to lead, and they probably often ask themselves, What am I doing here? And I'd love to hear from all of you as you're listening. If this is resonating with you if you feel it, if you see this in the landscape. But what do you think about this, David? Why is this happening.
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David Rock: Yeah, it's such a big number. I was blown away by that number like I, you know. If you'd asked me I would have said, Oh, maybe it's a quarter or a 3, rd
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David Rock: but 7, more than 70%, just such an incredible number. And I was thinking about the
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David Rock: the the you know the the reason for this
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David Rock: and kind of what's you know what's going on? And the partially, I think this comes to some research we did last year, where we were looking at how much of what leaders do is kind of the same, and how much is new and how new is it? And last year the data was that change accelerated about 33% just in one year.
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David Rock: Right? So the like this, the speed of the environment people are dealing with is literally a 3rd faster just in a year. And it was about 180% faster in 4 years. So firstly, just like the pace, it's completely different than anything is anyone's
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David Rock: dealt with right? And so we just we don't know how to go at this speed right? It's like driving a car. You've driven a car at 10 miles an hour. Things seem to work. You've driven a car at 30 miles an hour. Things seem to be fine. You've made it to 60 miles an hour, right? You're now, you know you've got your driver's license, and then someone's put you in at 200 miles an hour in a racing car on a track. You're like.
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David Rock: I really know how to do this. Am I going to crash and burn any minute. Right? It's much faster. Okay, maybe the metaphor, the math of the metaphor isn't perfect, but you get my drift. The you know, things are just moving much faster. They have a lot less control
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David Rock: lot, less sense of control, a lot, less sense of certainty as well. And so I think
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David Rock: that's, I think that's a piece of it.
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David Rock: I think another piece of it is
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David Rock: is for sure, just the skills themselves. And we, we studied this and we found some areas where there was a real shift. And and essentially, there were some skills that leaders just never needed before. One of them is, you know, managing a hybrid workplace, you know, before it was like, Come to the office
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David Rock: or don't work for us, you know. And now it's like, well, a lot of you are coming to the office. A lot of you are not a lot of you are mixing it up.
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David Rock: We seem to always have a percentage of people who are never coming in. How do we deal with that? How do we deal with that? For, you know fair promotions for motivation. So the hybrid situation has really changed, like, how you lead and manage. And that's a couple of years old. People haven't had a chance to develop real protocols there also an overwhelmed workforce.
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David Rock: you know, much more overwhelmed workforce than ever a more divided workforce than ever. And then, of course, there's the AI like what what's happening right now? Some industries, you know, in some industries there's sort of the the early wave of enthusiasm has
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David Rock: subsided to, you know the finance department saying, we're not spending $20 a month per employee on, you know, Gen. AI.
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David Rock: And there's too many risks. And it's just sort of people are individually using it. And AI is helping individuals be more productive, effective in a lot of industries. They're researching faster writing, faster, doing things faster. And people are actually enjoying their work more through AI. So even in the companies where they're not centralizing and really integrating AI, there's still like quite seismic changes.
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David Rock: And then, of course, the other end of the spectrum. There are companies that are massively downsizing whole functions. There are certain industries where you just. You know, the industry is going to get decimated. If you're in the translation industry, it's not going to be long before that whole industry is decimated. But the AI hasn't yet brought wide scale wholesale changes.
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David Rock: but it's coming right. And leaders have to understand it. Think about it often. They're not technology. People don't understand technology.
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David Rock: So they just they feel like they're guessing. And to be honest, around AI, all of us are guessing right. We could have
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David Rock: most incredible breakthroughs in 2 years from now, or it could just be like, Huh.
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David Rock: you know, it's really hard to pick. So we all sort of feel like we're guessing a bit. So I think you know those factors. We put all those things together. What we found was all of the timely to spend about half the time they spend is on things that they've really never had to deal with before.
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David Rock: The other half is on things they've always had to deal with.
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David Rock: like how to understand people, how to motivate them, how to grow them and develop them. Right leaders always had to do those 3 things. It turns out those 3 things are actually harder to do if you don't see folks, and they're overwhelmed and divided right.
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David Rock: But they're also more important to do. If you don't see folks. They're overwhelmed and divided. Right? So so you need, they're both harder and more important. So half the skills are brand new. Half the skills are
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David Rock: much harder and much more important all at once. And so people just like I haven't trained for this, you know. I train to kind of, you know. Drive a car at 60 miles an hour. You've given me a racing car at 200, you know. It's insanely fast. I don't know what's happening. So that's I think that's a bit of what's going on from my perspective. What are folks saying in the chat? What are your thoughts? Why is there so much imposter syndrome. What's jumping out for you, Emma?
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Emma Sarro: So I mean everything that you said is so right. I think that the analogy that you brought in was exactly right. I mean just imagining myself in a car, driving at 200 miles an hour like, where do you like? What's the next move? So the uncertainty around all of these decisions that leaders have to make. I think everything that's in the chat is so right on. I mean, the the old way of working isn't going to work. So what do you approach next? And
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Emma Sarro: this actually came up a lot when we were building our accountability. Perspective is the old systems just weren't able to adjust to the new way of working in all sense the hybrid work working all of these new tools that AI is offering us like, how do we invest in de and I in the right way, in the new way of working and just responding in the right way. And that decision process.
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David Rock: Almost that leaders must be feeling in in the uncertainty. Am I going to make the right decision?
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David Rock: Yeah, certainly, if you're still in the model of. I have the answers, you're in deep trouble. But if you're in the model of really engaging your team, and really the whole organization
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David Rock: right to to find the solutions, because it's a lot of a lot of insight comes, you know, way down in the organization, people who are actually talking to customers and doing the work right. There's so much insight comes there from that kind of call face. You know, interface and and leaders who are sort of disconnected from that.
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David Rock: and trying to, you know, look good, right? Maybe they've got a fixed mindset. They just kind of want to look good. They want to look like the leader. Right? They're going to really struggle. I think leaders who really are just constantly trying to improve, who've got more of a growth mindset. They're trying to get better. They're creating psychological safety and others. So that there's real information flow. I think those leaders are just, you know, going to do so much better. So
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David Rock: that's you know that I think the sort of more servant leadership approach is just going to become more and more important as we go forward.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, I mean, willing to willing to change, willing to ask questions and ask questions of everyone in the organization, right? Looking at the data. And and we had a question in in the Q&A tab from when are they experiencing level? 2 and 3 threats, likely. And that's also getting in the way of them, being able to make decisions and look at all of the data.
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David Rock: Yeah, the uncertainty level, the feeling of of having no control that you know, that's gonna create strong threats for people. And I think that's gonna
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David Rock: I think that's, gonna you know, make people freeze and and not, you know, be able to think deeply. And that's you know, that's a problem in this time.
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Emma Sarro: Right? Well, so one of the things that really is coming up for me is.
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Emma Sarro: how do we develop them? Then, like, how are we developing the ones that are just starting out the ones that have been in for years? You know? How do we look at them and and help them develop the right skills to be adjustable, to be adaptable to change? Right? So so what is it about leadership development? How have we done this in the past?
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David Rock: Yeah. So lots to say, I mean, I think we're at this time. We're at this really interesting juncture where you've got developing leaders is more important, right? But it's harder to do. It's a bit like those, you know, those skills I was saying before about understanding others, developing leaders themselves
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David Rock: is actually much more important. We need to spend much more time on it, but it's much harder to do when leaders are overwhelmed, and leaders themselves are feeling so uncertain and so much to do, and all of that. So it's a really interesting juncture. And it's tempting to go back to the way we've always done leadership development in the past which the model for that
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David Rock: sort of personified by Crotonville at Ge. Or other kind of leadership retreats. And I know you know, it's
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David Rock: center for creative leadership is, you know, decades of doing this work with kind of taking people off site. Right? Let's go to a a venue. Let's let's spend like you know, 4 or 5 days, you know, in this deep experience, right? And
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David Rock: that model to some degree still works. If you can get people out for 4 or 5 days. The trouble these days is in those 4 or 5 days, they said. They're gonna be like on their phones and juggling like a hundred other things during the day. It's gonna be impossible, almost impossible, to get people not doing that. You know the phone is your office now? Right?
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David Rock: You know, apps have eaten like your your everything that used to be in your office. An app has eaten, or an alarm clock, a calculator, a planning tool. You know everything that physically used to be in your office is now in your phone, so you can do your whole company from your phone. Now, it's quite incredible. So getting people to not, you know, do the work in their breaks, or even just at night.
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David Rock: Right? So just cognitively, they're going to be really exhausted trying to get those people out. But the bigger challenge
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David Rock: you in theory, can, you know. Get, you know, a group of people off site. And now and then we're running off site. So we're running like a 2 day, right? a 1 and a half to 2 day and getting some value. The trouble is.
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David Rock: let's let's imagine a company of 10,000 employees right? Go to leadership team. These numbers are approximate
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David Rock: just to sort of understand it got a leadership team of 10, right? The C-suite. So the CEO and the Cfo and the chief people officer. And all this about 10 people. Right?
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David Rock: You've got a next level down that those folks manage of about a hundred, right? So you know, senior leaders, you've got about a thousand frontline managers, and then, you know, a bit under 10,000, say 9,000, you know employees. So a company of 10,000 people, about 9,000 employees, about a thousand frontline managers and about a hundred senior managers and 10, you know top people. So the way we think of leadership development is we really want to transform that top 10
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David Rock: right? And the old model of leadership development was the top 10 and really pushing to get the next 100 into something. The trouble is getting the next 100 into something.
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David Rock: By the time you get that whole group through like 30 or 40% of them have turned over. And you never really get a critical mass of that 100. And the problem is that's not really impacting the 10,000.
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Emma Sarro: What you really want to do is have some kind of model that impacts the 1,000 people. Managers, frontline managers right.
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David Rock: And the 100 and the 10 kind of all with a common language.
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David Rock: So you really want something that impacts that whole group. Now you're impacting 10,000, right? But you got to really think differently about that. And the old model of taking people off site even for 2 days. You're not going to get that to the top 1,000. It's incredibly cumbersome, incredibly expensive. So we need really, really different ways of thinking about leadership development.
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David Rock: That is as effective as that retreat. Right? That's just as effective, maybe more, but can scale to a thousand and also scale pretty quickly to a thousand like in the same 6 month period. So that you've got this like critical mass of people all with this, you know, all with the skills. And then, you know, as people turn over, you can quickly get them through it. So we need a very different model, I believe, of leadership development. And that's that's, I think, where we're going, you know, in the future I think that we're going to see more and more of that as we go forward.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, right? And it seems like, still, I mean, what are you seeing? Recently as kind of like the recent innovations that have helped leadership development.
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David Rock: So you dropped out for a second. Ask that again.
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Emma Sarro: Oh, oh, sorry! What are you? What are you seeing as kind of like the recent innovations that we can leverage to kind of build better leadership, development.
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David Rock: I think you know, there's there's a few, you know, the the technology can help
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David Rock: but there's there's there's a lot of
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David Rock: a lot of strategies are sort of driven by this. Oh, amazing! We've got this amazing technology. Let's use it to do. But you actually need a really strong theoretical foundation for what leadership development really is right. And if you don't have that strong foundation, you'll just. You'll do all these experiments with different technologies. I think there's a really interesting role for simulations.
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David Rock: right? Which can be now. You know, we're exploring, doing these with AI like. So it, you know, looks and feels like you're talking to a person
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David Rock: and maybe sometimes it is a person you actually don't know. You're not sure. Right? Sometimes it actually is a person which keeps you sort of guessing in a way, but using AI to develop these simulations. But it's very hard to develop a simulation that really really gives someone an insight that doesn't feel trivial.
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David Rock: that you don't get lost in the context. It's actually, really, really hard to do that, because what exactly are you trying to teach people? What's the what's the habit? And then what's the cognitive principle underneath that? But we've been. We've been thinking about. For example, I work on accountability. We've got this new solution on accountability.
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David Rock: called deliver right? And we took some time to work out the critical habits, and you know there's a there's a 1st habit called sync expectations, right? So there are 3 habits in all our solutions. So sync expectations is the 1st habit. So you absolutely can create a really powerful simulation of.
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David Rock: you know, of an interaction where you can give someone an opportunity to sync expectations well, and then actually give them feedback, really helpful feedback about what they did. Well, what they did, okay, what they missed, and then even give them a second chance to do it right. So I think that in theory the technology is really helpful. But you actually need to know exactly the habit that you're building and the science of that.
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David Rock: Otherwise it just kind of is all over the shop, right? It can be really, really hard. So we're experimenting with that, I think in the next couple of months we'll have simulations, real time simulations, both with humans or AI or bit of mix built into our core solutions. You're going to see that coming up. So I think that's a really interesting thing. Obviously, AI like an AI bot
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David Rock: is really interesting. We've launched Niles that's starting to go into some clients. Niles is a neuro, intelligent leadership enhancing system. And it speaks to this thing about. There's sort of 2 ways you can do leadership development. One is is sort of just in case, you know, giving people a program. And the other is, you know, real time, right in the flow of work. And Niles is one of the few and 1st real time leadership development tools. In that you can literally say, Hey, Niles, I'm
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David Rock: you know, that's going to this meeting with my colleague, you know, Mike, and we had this argument before. This is what happened. Not sure what went wrong. You know. What should I do today? And Niles will actually unpack like your staff profile the colleague staff like what? What? Probably you did wrong?
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David Rock: what what you could do differently, give you some suggestions of like ways. So actually, Niles knows all about the brain, knows all about our research and is built on Chat Gpt as well in case you also want to ask where to go for lunch. And so so in real time, you can.
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David Rock: you know, literally have this coach that guides you, and it'll either guide you by asking you questions, literally coaching you or give you input. You can kind of choose what you prefer. So that's an amazing tool that we can do that. And you know that's there. Now, we're starting to incorporate that. So I think you know, these kinds of tools. These kinds of technologies can really help us. But I think the theory is, how do we help leaders
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David Rock: in real time in the flow of work and make that really fluent. Make that really easy. I think that's you know. I think that's gonna help overall.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, yeah, I mean, what's what's coming up for me is, how are we designing this to work with with the way that leaders need right now. And this is this is kind of speaking to how can we scale it right easily, and the overwhelm that leaders are feeling so in the flow of work, and also where what? Exactly they need, which kind of leads me to, you know the next question I wanted to kind of get into which is, which is my favorite topic is
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Emma Sarro: is, how are we anchoring on neuroscience is what we do. We anchor everything in neuroscience and build our foundation for for everything that we build and how we work with organizations, people.
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David Rock: Yeah, well, let's, I mean, let's talk about the role of neuroscience before we do that, I saw a couple of questions in the chat. So Niles is available to organizations at the moment we're putting it in to quite a few firms. It's fascinating, seeing how people use it. If you're from an organization, and you want to explore Niles. We can get you set up to trial. It just put the word Niles and your company. We don't currently have an individual have a tool for individuals to use it. That will come
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David Rock: hopefully in the next few months. But we're right now working with organizations. So put the word Niles in your company. Name someone. Someone will reach out and and get you set up to be able to explore it, to potentially bring it into your organization. So that's alive and well, it's it's it's really an amazing tool. I know. I use it every day. My team across Nli use it in all sorts of ways so
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David Rock: fantastic. So yeah, let's talk about the role of brain research. So sometimes people look at brain research and say, well, it's just marketing. It's just sort of repackaging things in a, you know, brainy way. So people are more interested, and to some degree there's an element of
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David Rock: of packaging when you put brain into something more. People are interested. That's true. That might pass at some point and have the reverse effect. But it's much, much deeper than that. Firstly, there are 2 ways that we integrate brain research. The 1st is in the design and delivery of any kind of learning solution. Right? So we have a really solid theory for how to design learning how to deliver learning
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David Rock: based on what happens in the brain when learning works so kind of working backwards from habits to actions, working backwards from actions to insights, working backwards from insights to stories and research, and so that whole pathway, understanding. The neuroscience of that whole pathway is really helpful. And how you do that over time.
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David Rock: how you focus attention, how much attention people can hold all this stuff. We actually put this recently into a program for the 1st time, we're running what we're calling brain-based design and facilitation.
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David Rock: We ran one in New York recently, we ran one in London, and we're gonna run one, virtually, which I believe you're running, Emma.
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David Rock: starting it.
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David Rock: Yeah, I think we're doing some sessions together as well. What date does that start? It's a virtual on what dates that program.
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Emma Sarro: That starts the 12, th and it goes a session every week for 3 weeks.
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David Rock: 3, right? So 3 sessions over 3 weeks, the 12th of February that's coming up. So maybe my team can put that link in the chat. And it's yeah, brain-based design and facilitation. So we're doing it virtually for the 1st time. So you know, we're going to be walking through how you use brain research to design any kind of learning solution, leadership solution, soft skills solution, all of that. And that's yeah. I ran the 1st 2 in New York and London. Such fascinating
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David Rock: such a fascinating thing! In the end the biggest insight was actually about insight itself
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David Rock: that really you want to become a master of designing for insight. You're designing to maximize the the strength, intensity of insight, and we even have a measure for that. So anyway, so brain research is, you know. Firstly, that's 1.
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David Rock: I think the bigger use is basically giving leaders a richer language moment to moment of what happens when they lead
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David Rock: right. So right now, the amount of like brain language people have is about a language about one word, right or 2 words. Amygdala hijack people have sort of read about the amygdala hijack like, so they can sort of recognize when someone's like kind of mentally. Not there, right? That's about the entire language. There's this enormous range of language
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David Rock: that when you have it helps, you understand, in real time what's going on literally while you're having a conversation with someone, or while you're planning something right? Or while you're debriefing on something. So you actually know what's going on in the brain.
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David Rock: And you can see when people are hitting cognitive limits and understand what those are and how to change gear and how to still work. You can see when someone's about to have an insight and know that you should shut up. You can see when someone's having a status reaction versus an autonomy reaction or something else. You can see when you're being too directive, right or not directive enough.
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David Rock: So you have all this language that helps, you see, in real time what's going on now, a worst case scenario, when we scale this work is, people will remember a few basics, but those few basics end up being incredibly helpful.
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David Rock: like a few basics like, Are you creating a toward response in your people or an away response. And just being conscious of that right with your style like, Oh, oops! I've created an away response in my people. Right? So that very basic language
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David Rock: goes a long way. It makes people much more thoughtful in how they approach things right. Or maybe they get into scarf. They start to really see what's creating those toward and away responses and be able to really work with those. Or, you know, deeper level. So so you know, even at a very basic level, a few pieces of language have this really big impact on people's awareness moment to moment of what they're doing right.
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David Rock: But you know, often we'll go much deeper than that. So I think it's a bit like Neo in the matrix where
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David Rock: you know. Suddenly Neo sees the data in real time of what the agents are doing, and now he can avoid punches. And all this I think it's a bit like that. As a leader, as you have brain language, you can see in real time what's going to happen even better ahead of time. The best thing is ahead of time.
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David Rock: You know that if you send this email that way, all these people are going to have an autonomy reaction and you go hang on. That's a bad idea. Let's involve people. Let's just involve some stakeholders in this way. And let's tweak it this way. And suddenly it's much less of a reaction. So this, you know. So I think it's 2 things, firstly, the design, and then, secondly, it's this language that really helps people just be more adaptive
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David Rock: as leaders. And it turns out, when you're thinking at that level, you actually have the same language for the 1,000, the 100 and the 10. So all 3 levels of leader, right, senior, middle and and frontline, all 3 levels of leader should have the same language, and you can teach them the same language. You just give them different scenarios, but it's it's the same like cognitive tools at the at the heart.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, absolutely. And everyone has the same understanding. Right? You're all speaking the same same language, same understanding. And I'll say from experience here that all of this work that we're that we're doing. And while it seems very simple in how we're talking about it tore it away, you know, like efficient decisions or autonomy, threats or rewards. It's all based on years and years of very complex research that we simplified into something
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Emma Sarro: simple that individuals can understand really quickly, and I'll say, and the reason that it's important to simplify and make these solutions very simple is that we're all wired to be rewarded by simple solutions, in fact. And so this is something that's recently come out. That kind of qualifies everything that we're doing, the simpler the solution, the more rewarding it is for us. And so you'll lean into that simple solution. And that's what
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Emma Sarro: understanding the brain in this way does, you know we provide this really? Hey? This was a status threat, and you feel it. You understand it. And it makes a lot of sense.
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Emma Sarro: Right?
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Emma Sarro: Yeah.
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David Rock: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I know when we teach people scarf, they immediately start making more sense of the world like they immediately like, Go home and go. Oh, my gosh! I understand my teenager now, right? They're just having an autonomy threat every waking second. And it's just it just like has this kind of face validity that makes it even stickier. And then you start to use it anyway. So that's yeah. That's what I think is interesting. So it. Just you know, the brain research makes you just more adaptive in the moment
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David Rock: because you you see things. And it's a bit like, you know, it's a bit like you're trying to. You're trying to cook, and you knew nothing about salt, sugar, sour, spicy
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David Rock: umami, everything else right? And then someone taught you all those things, and how you increase and decrease all those things. You'd be a much better cook, right? You'd be able to flavor things much more interestingly, because you actually can taste things and know as you're tasting a food, you know. Oh, this is not salty enough, right? Oh, this is not spicy enough. Oh, this is too sweet! So you have language, and without that language and those experiences you wouldn't be able to, you know, make great food
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David Rock: in a similar way, as you have language for leadership in real time, you can actually experiment with things because you know what's going on. You know much, much better.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, absolutely. And you know what's coming up for me is this idea that? And maybe individuals are thinking this too. Do you need to have this like baseline general understanding of the brain. Do we all have need to take it, you know, Neuro 101 in college to take this in? Or is this for everyone?
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David Rock: I mean, they are starting to teach kids a lot more about this, like, we're starting to learn a lot more in social, emotional learning and other classes. And I think it's I absolutely think that we should have taught in our schools a foundational language of the brain, absolutely a foundational language of what creates threats and rewards. There's actually hundreds of
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David Rock: hundreds and hundreds of papers on using the scarf model in education. Now, I discovered. So it is something that we should be learning in schools and universities. And you know, the biases, for example, had a really
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David Rock: reduce biases. You know, all this kind of stuff should should absolutely be be much more universal.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, absolutely. Well. So moving on from the brain and thinking about how we've developed leadership, we have 3 different ways that we're kind of thinking about leadership development. Now, one of which is kind of a customized approach. And we've been talking a bit about for anyone who's listened often. Do you want to talk about our Gpa.
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David Rock: Yeah. So so, firstly, let me say, if you are desperate to run a leadership retreat, you can still call us. We'll do an amazing job. But we're going to teach your leaders about the brain. And so, if you know, if you have that old school kind of need, I don't mean to be insulting. But if if you know, or if you have an opportunity, where your leaders are coming together, your top 10, or even your top 100. And you can imagine getting these people off site for a few days. You know, we're still doing that. And we do an amazing job of that one of the most powerful
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David Rock: activities in that experience is teaching people how to ask for feedback really well and receive it really well, and actually getting that happening right across the team is transformational. The culture is never the same. So anyway, if you're you know, we're still doing that, it's a very small part of our work, but we still do a bit of it. One of the biggest parts of our work these days that's really interesting is
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David Rock: developing a really simple, sticky, memorable leadership model. We've been talking about this for a while. We've been doing it now for about a dozen years. I think the last podcast. We did the last session we did was with Microsoft. We did a 10 year summary of the work. We've done there on this issue. So we developed their leadership principles.
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David Rock: It was a great session. Maybe my team can put the link to that if you missed it in the chat here it was with the Chief Learning officer.
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David Rock: Joe Whittinghill, just retiring now from Microsoft. And you know we built, create clarity, generate energy, deliver success over a decade ago, and still the most central framework in developing leaders there, you know, 10 years later. But we didn't just build that. What we did was we built a way of instilling like create clarity
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David Rock: into a leader's minds at all levels of the business. And so we built all sorts of different kinds of experiences, digital experiences and personal experiences and built this whole leadership development pathway for their model. So we're still doing that a lot. And so one way of doing leadership development is, you develop a model.
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David Rock: We've done this now for Colgate, for mastercard, for lots of amazing organizations. And you develop this model. Then you develop a way of really building habits properly. Now, I was working with my team on this recently. What's the right way of building habits across an organization? The answer is, I can't tell you there isn't 1 we've across a hundred different
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David Rock: different cases. We've done this. They're really different, really, really different. You know, scenarios. And what we're seeing is some patterns, and it's always based on a core set of principles. Right? The principles are, we want to build habits, habits have to take time. Habits form much better in social groups, and they form much better when people have insights slowly over time. So
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David Rock: really, really different ways of actually building it. But what we do is we take about 3 months to build the leadership model and and in parallel build what we call a habit activation strategy. But those habit activation strategies are really really different. But it usually will include something light that goes to everyone, something deeper, maybe to that. That 100 and something actually, still really effective that goes to the 1,000 that actually touches the 10,000.
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David Rock: Right? So we'll we'll build a learning experience that all 1,000 people will go through that will result in them impacting the 10,000 really directly. And so we'll think about the whole system. So anyway, that's that's 1 of the ways that we're thinking about leadership development. And
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David Rock: in this time we're continuing to see demand for what we call leadership principles.
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David Rock: Because you can kind of clean up these complex models and come up with something really, really simple. If that is something you're interested in. Just put leadership principles in the chat and your company name. Someone will follow up. We can share with you a whole bunch of case, studies and examples and talk you through kind of what that takes and how it works. It's actually very fast to do. 3, 4 months. You know, do it very virtually all of that. So anyway, that's 1 way still very powerful, probably more relevant to medium to larger companies.
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David Rock: the the smaller the the second thing that we do
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David Rock: a lot of. And this is what we've been doing for a decade is, and remember to put your company name when you put leadership principles in there. Thanks for those who did that. The second thing we're doing is what we call a pathway
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David Rock: and a pathway is essentially these. These chunks of of learning, and each chunk is a 30 day experience for the participant. Right? So a little bite of learning every week for a month.
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David Rock: and there's various different ways that we do, that we're doing that all sorts of different modalities. But the theory is every participant's getting a little bite of learning every week for a month, and they know that other people around them are getting that a little bite of learning every week for a month. So we have these off the shelf solutions. There's 16 of them now.
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David Rock: Often a pathway will start with grow right, so all say 1,110 leaders will go through growth, mindset, grow over, say, a quarter or a half.
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David Rock: They'll all go through that 30 day experience, all get this language of growth mindset. Right? Then they might. We might bring them back again 3 or 6 months later. Get everyone going through, say, team, which is psychological safety, and so everyone will have the shared languages around psych safety. Then they might come back
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David Rock: and all go around. Go through deliver, which is accountability, right? So growth, mindset psych safety accountability. We think it was Gpa growth. You know, psych and accountability. Those 3 are becoming increasingly popular as a pathway.
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David Rock: But you can actually put a pathway of anything together. But the beauty of this is you've got this very light touch that can impact everyone very quickly.
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David Rock: and it ends up touching the front line, really impacting the front line as well and at quite a low cost. So these pathways you might start with growth mindset. Maybe you'll get into asking for feedback. Maybe you'll get into breaking bias. Maybe you'll get into all sorts of things. So there are lots of different ways of doing it. But right now, kind of Gpa has been really popular growth, mindset psych safety, accountability. So that's another way. We're doing it. And again, it looks different in every company, some companies.
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David Rock: they do all the delivery, some we do, some. It's very customized, some. It's not. We actually got some data recently, because we collect impact data in a really clever way. And we found that the difference when you customize something versus off the shelf was an 8 percentage point difference. So if you're training a thousand people, if you customize, you're going to get 8% of a thousand
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David Rock: which is not insignificant, you're going to get, you know 80 more people have habits than if you just did something off the shelf, and then you can kind of make that decision. Is it worth the extra investment or not. So we've been doing some interesting work there. So anyway, that so leadership principles is one way,
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David Rock: really fascinating work. And we've done about 40 of those leadership principles projects. Now, a pathway. We've done hundreds and hundreds of solutions that way. And you know, you can start with one solution like grow and then add or, you know, kind of plan. A 2 year plan. Probably the most common is a 2 year plan of of, you know, 4, 5, or 6 solutions
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David Rock: that everyone's gonna go through over 2 years. And that becomes your leadership solution. So yeah, anything you want to add there, Emma, to the second one, before we go to some of the other ideas.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, actually, for both of these, what's coming up for me? And this is something that we talk about a lot as a team is how we customize, based on the organization, the culture of the organization. This comes through in our leadership principles that while every single program is different and it's customized to the organization we're going back through and looking at all of our work organizations. And we're looking at like, what is the common thread? And how, how are these?
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Emma Sarro: How are these leadership principles built? Even though they're very customized to the organization which I think is important. And this is what this is what companies want right now is is, you know, what works best for our culture, and it's the same thing for the pathways you know what is working best for for your organization. What do you need? At what different time? While Gpa. Is great? For you know these are the 3 pillars of great leadership. This is what like the research really suggests
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Emma Sarro: depending on your culture, you may need something different, and that I think that we do that really well is that we look in the culture, we see what you actually need. What's the language you're currently speaking? What's working, what's not working. And I think for both leadership principle work as well as for our pathways. We can really fix your pain points right? We come in and we actually see what's working. What's not so. I think that's important to mention here, because both of those really speak to that.
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David Rock: Yeah, they're very custom in in many, many ways, and even the off the shelf solutions. You can put them together and frame them with a custom branding and custom, framing and kind of tweak it so that it really does feel very relevant, extremely relevant to your organization. And I think that's important. Otherwise, just, you know, get just give people access to some digital platform that they'll never use if it doesn't feel really relevant. You sort of may as well not do it. It's got to feel relevant, I think, to to the team.
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David Rock: Let's go to the 3rd area the 3rd way that we're working, and then maybe we can do a quick poll after that. So to sort of get a sense of where people are. But the 3rd thing that we're doing is something really new for us. And it came from the insight that when you look at
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David Rock: the cognitive skills like, how do you understand people better. Right? When you look at the cognitive skills of different levels of leader, they actually are the same like a 1st time manager, that 1,000, the middle manager that 100 and the senior manager that 10, right? All 3 levels of people have challenges understanding humans.
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David Rock: And if anything, it just gets harder as you go up. But it's the same skill. And we realize that most of the time organizations are bringing in like this one set of leadership programs for frontline managers, a different program for middle managers, different program for senior managers, you know, it was just model. Model.
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David Rock: And people were not getting development. That kind of deepened. And so we we developed this solution. It took us over a year, I think, a year and a half to develop. It's called lead. It doesn't stand for anything. It's just lead. And we built this.
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David Rock: We built this as a completely digital platform. With this idea that everyone would be excited by a completely digital platform. And we were completely wrong. People don't want a completely digital platform. It turns out they still want some human interaction. So we've been. But we designed it to enable that to be added. But essentially, we built the the foundational
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David Rock: management leadership skills around, manage yourself mobilize others, drive results.
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David Rock: We built the foundational leadership skills that really lives underneath those pathways. So those pathways are like a double click on growth mindset. A double click on accountability, for example. But what about like foundationally? How do you manage yourself better like, how do you interact with people better based on the brain like, how do you really keep people engaged with you in the conversation? And and, you know, use a coach like approach across the board. And all this. So so we built the 6 month experience
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David Rock: in a way that people could do it completely, digitally. But what we found is, most of our partners are wanting to add some real time synchronous elements which it's designed for. So you can do that 3 times something in person or something. Virtually you can do it 9 times. So one for every habit. So basically 9 habits in 3 chunks over 6 months, and so leads getting some really interesting feedback. It's, you know, we're in our 1st year
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David Rock: of it. We've run some fantastic rollouts, the nice thing with lead for very, very distributed organizations, with very large numbers of, you know, frontline managers. You can do real leadership development that's consistent across the organization at quite low cost and quite quickly, but actually really building habits still. So we just started work with a company right across Asia, thousands of managers
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David Rock: in many, many different countries right across Asia. You can actually bring them together in these cohorts to really learn, together with this digital work in the background as well. So lead is really fascinating. We've been talking about it for a while. But that's where Niles came from. What happened was, we realized some people didn't want to wait to the end of the program to learn some of the skills. And so we created this AI initially to be part of lead.
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David Rock: so that you could at any point ask a question. And then all these partners started saying.
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David Rock: I wanna I wanna just use Niles now, like we're like, Hmm, didn't see that coming. Okay, let's try it, and and now, Niles is out on its own in. I think it's an it right in in organization. So anyway, that's lead. So that's the 3rd way we're doing leadership development. And we can build, you know, custom versions of that. But essentially, lead is a digital platform
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David Rock: giving people insights 15 min a week, about 15 min a week of these insights all the way through, all the foundational stuff about the brain, that you might then afterwards come back and say, all right, let's really double click in this area, in this area, in this area with a pathway. So just put lead in the chat. If you're interested in learning more. Put lead and your company name in the chat, and
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David Rock: someone will follow up with you about that, and lead has Niles involved as well, so those are. Those are the 3 ways. So we're doing, you know, leadership principles.
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David Rock: With these very custom pathways. Essentially, you know, following on in lots of different ways. We're doing these off the shelf
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David Rock: pathways. Across these very, you know, central topics. And then we're doing lead, which is fantastic, particularly for larger organizations that want and yes, you can say yes to all the above, absolutely. We'll we'll get in touch with you. We're doing lead. These, you know, interesting organizations. And, interestingly,
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David Rock: a lot of the organizations that are loving the work are not necessarily, you know, high tech or farmer, or, as you might imagine, and we do work a lot with those. But actually, we're having great success with blue collar companies, mining, manufacturing, high volume, wholesale all sorts of things. So we're finding this work is actually really popular all the way down there. So those are some of the 3 ways that we're
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David Rock: we're doing things. We're also experimenting with something for the top of the house. For that top 10. We're experimenting with something. We experiment all the time. Experiments often fail. I think this one will work. We'll see. But we're running a C-suite brain lab
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David Rock: for senior people. So it's for that top 10. It's for that C-suite. We're running a C-suite brain lab in New York in May. Maybe the folks can put the chat, the link in the chat. But that's a 3 day in-person experience in partnership with one of the professors at Columbia. We're actually going to be assessing people's brains in real time as they're doing leadership tasks, giving them really rich feedback.
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David Rock: From you know, real time. So this will be the 1st one we're running in early May in New York city. So that's something to consider as well. So anyway, that's 3 and a half ways that we're doing leadership development at the moment back to you, Emma, where would you like to go next?
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David Rock: Oh, maybe we should get the poll done. I think we're gonna do that.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, yeah. I mean, just one thing. That's as you're putting the pull up. One thing that's coming up for me is just that as we were building lead. I mean, there are many different skills that we put into it. And one of the things that
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Emma Sarro: is clear is that, despite what type of leader you are, what organization you are. There are so many things that leaders have to learn, and it doesn't matter what kind of industry you're in. These are necessary for working with others, driving others, motivating, others, having conversations. All of these things are critical. So it's definitely useful for anybody in any industry. And actually one question that I'd love
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Emma Sarro: to hear your thoughts on David that came up in the Q. And a. Is leaders and organizations. Do you see them as naturally self-directed to seek out development for themselves? Or do they have to be asked to? I think this is really interesting for leaders who don't think they need it.
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David Rock: There's such a divide. I think there's such a divide, you know. Satya Nadella at Microsoft is way on one side, right where he, you know, in his 1st article about taking on the role more than 10 years ago, you know, he talked about the number of books by his bed, and how much of a learner he was, and how much he needed to keep learning, and he wanted to make the whole organization, you know, learn it alls not know it alls.
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David Rock: and that was sort of the kickoff to his growth mindset push which we work with them on. But I think you've got this one side of real, passionate learners. You know, those people have really diverse networks, their parts that they're involved in really diverse different things. You know, the other side of the world of people who are sort of more fixed mindset, who, you know, focused on looking good. They don't learn new things a lot. If you look at what they're doing in their private life, they're not learning new languages or going to new countries constantly, or
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David Rock: you know anything that particularly challenges them. They're doing things that sort of make them look good, and parts of networks that are kind of, you know more on that focus. So I think there's a real big divide. I don't know the percentage at all. I don't know if anyone studied sort of fixed and growth mindset leaders, but that's how I would think about it. Actually, maybe it's a question I'll pose
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David Rock: I'm heading to Davos for the 1st time next week.
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David Rock: Fascinating kind of event with it's the world's leaders at this big forum, but in parallel to sort of the major events that are very hard to get into, you've got this whole raft of really interesting sessions on, like the future of technology and the future of humanity and the future of healthcare. So it's a real kind of step out and think about the future experience I'm presenting at a couple of sessions there.
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David Rock: and if you have your CEO or any of your senior executives going along to Davos, you know of that. Get in touch with us. We'll invite them to some of the sessions I'm doing, and maybe I can meet up. But I think I'm actually doing a session. Live from Davos in 2 weeks. Right? We're doing one of these.
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David Rock: Live from from. There would be a bit of a wrap up. But I think that kind of event. You know people who go to that kind of event. I guess there's a divide. Some will go just to look good and put it on the Cv. But you know, I think a lot will go because they want to learn. They want to network. They want to bring in other perspectives, and they're sort of hungry to gain information and insight. So I think there's a there's a bit of a you know, a divide about that.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, definitely. And I think I'm in the face of all this change. I think it's necessary to to be more growth, mindset oriented and learn. I mean, I think that's a necessity.
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David Rock: Oh, my gosh, absolutely! To Cindy's question, there's a big difference. So we have an education pathway for individual contributors. So if you're interested in connecting to our work. But you're not necessarily there. You're not necessarily able to bring things to an organization. You can do our brain-based coaching, which is a fantastic program. 25,000 graduates now on how to coach from a brain perspective, or you can do the certificate in foundations of neuro leadership, which is a 6 month course.
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David Rock: really diving deep into the science. It's not really a practical course at all. You don't really learn skills, but if you're already a facilitator, a coach, you know. Hr. Leader, consultant change agent of any sort. The Cfn. Gives you a really good set of insights into the foundational science over 6 months. So it's fantastic, and
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David Rock: my team can put a link in the chat. It's run, I think, a couple of times a year. So a really really great program for change agents to get into the science. But the science has been packaged for practitioners, whereas lead is literally lead is literally skills based. So the science is in the background. It's like, How do I, you know, get the most for my brain. How do I?
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David Rock: You know, interact with others different. It's a very, very skill based with science there in the background. If you want it, you can actually dig into the papers even. But it's all about the skills and and tools and all that. So and more for managers. Whereas the Cfn. Is more for change agents, although managers could certainly do it. So so that's that's a little bit of the difference. There, thanks, Cindy.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah.
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Emma Sarro: all right. Well, and I would. I would encourage anyone interested in Cfn, because I facilitate it so. I would love anyone to join. It's so much fun. So last question for you as we kind of close close up. And this is up for next week, as we're talking about AI a bit next week? What do you predict? The role of AI is going to have in leadership development? And how how can we leverage it.
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David Rock: I mean, I think I think we're going to talk a lot about that next week, and and I think I want to tie that to Megan's question in in the in the Q, and a. As well about sort of how do you get people to do to really do things right. It's really easy. One of the you know. One of the downsides of AI is. They roll the eyes effect of like, Oh, my gosh! I'm dealing with an AI like we, you know, customer service.
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David Rock: The customer experience of customer service has been plummeting the last few years pretty much in parallel with, as we all start to interface with bots. And it's interesting. We don't like dealing with an AI, and we don't like feeling like we might be being tricked into dealing with an AI, and fundamentally we prefer dealing with the human still, and that'll probably, you know, be the case for quite some time. And so I think there's a there's a challenge with AI is that is that it can. It can augment leadership, development
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David Rock: right? And it can. It can augment the experience. But I still think that we're going to need people involved. And one of the most important factors to Megan's question one of the most important factors is is, how do you make something really far on the compelling continuum versus the mandatory continuum? So a lot of it's like a lot of people answer this with like, Oh, my gosh!
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David Rock: How do we make this mandatory but sort of trick people that it's not mandatory? No. How do you make this really compelling. And when you double down on making something compelling, that's how you get people to maximize completion. And we have amazing completion rates because we basically make things as short as possible and as compelling as possible right like a 1 page. Guide not a 3 page tip sheet. So compelling is the answer.
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David Rock: and you can get 80%, 90%, 95% of people completing a pretty intense experience if it's compelling and all of them will fully participate. If you make something mandatory, you can get 90% of people participate and 90% of them annoyed at you and most of them just ignoring the content. So you just better to stay on the compelling pathway. And I think the challenge with AI is going to be.
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David Rock: not, you know, to realize that humans
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David Rock: who know they're interfacing with an AI. Their brain is responding differently.
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David Rock: Right? It doesn't. It won't feel social and social learning is critical for embedding learning. You want the learning to feel social, you want to feel like you're interfacing with the human. You pay more attention, you have stronger emotions, you have deeper insights.
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David Rock: Right? When you feel like you're interacting with a human, it's going to be much more effective. So I think little bits of an experience like a simulation can be with an AI right? But you don't. Wanna. It's not gonna work, I think, to just completely replace with an AI. So that's my, that's my summary. But we're gonna talk a lot more about that next week on in the session there. So yeah. Great great questions. Great conversation. Emma. Was there anything else we wanted to cover. I think that was that was pretty much everything today.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, we covered a lot. I hope you all join us next week. We'll have another fun discussion. I mean, this was fantastic, and so many, so many things coming up, we could have had this conversation for even longer. So yeah, thanks for everything. And I think we'll pass it back to Ariel to close us off.
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David Rock: Fantastic thanks. So much, Emma. Thanks so much, Ariel. Have a great week, everyone take care. Bye-bye.
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Ariel Roldan: Thank you so much for today's discussion. We appreciate your time and all that you have shared today. So now for closing, if you haven't already. Please take a look at our poll, and let us know how Nli can help you in the future. That Poll will stay up for a few more moments. As I share some announcements, the first, st as mentioned previously, we have our brain-based design and facilitation workshop. So for anyone looking to amplify how they design learning
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Ariel Roldan: whether it's virtual, live, and in person or asynchronous. This workshop will provide you with an inside. Look into how we use a brain-based approach to our own design. The next event like this will begin February 12th as a virtual workshop over 3 separate sessions, and we'll be likely to host one near you in person soon.
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Ariel Roldan: Next is our C-suite brain lab for C-level or senior executives looking to get an inside, look into their own brain as they learn the critical habits for leaders. We are designing a 3 day brain lab of effective habit activation seminars and real-time Eeg, scanning participants, will walk away with insights into their own brain as it faces complex challenges.
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Ariel Roldan: Finally, we have our insider exchange specifically for senior executives. If you enjoy your brain at work, live, you'll love our Nli insider program. We invite you to join this exclusive opportunity where you can enjoy benefits such as 1st looks at new research, roundtable discussions with leading executives and researchers and helping us craft new innovations at work to apply. Please follow the link shared in the chat.
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Ariel Roldan: If you enjoyed today's conversation, you'll love the podcast, show. So make sure you subscribe. You can hear the past. Friday webinars on demand. So look for your brain at work whenever you enjoy listening to podcasts. Now, this is where we officially say farewell for the week on behalf of today's guests, the Nli team behind the scenes. Thank you again for joining us. We'll see you back here same time next week.