On the next episode of Your Brain at Work Live, discover how fostering a culture of feedback is key to continuous growth, high performance and organizational effectiveness. Dr. David Rock and Dr. Emma Sarro will illustrate how feedback practices have evolved at over the years, and point to a fundamental truth: feedback fuels high-quality conversations, boosts engagement, and improves cognitive capacity for individuals and teams alike. It's a must-have skill for leaders at every level — and we'll show you how to cultivate it at scale.
WEBVTT
1
00:00:10.580 --> 00:00:20.933
Shelby Wilburn: Welcome back to another week of your brain at work. Live! I'm your host, Shelby Wilburn, for our regulars. We're happy to have you back. And for our newcomers, we're excited to have you here with us today. For the first time
2
00:00:21.190 --> 00:00:34.550
Shelby Wilburn: in this episode, we're going to illustrate how feedback practices have evolved over the years and the positive impact it can have on your organization's culture change. Now, as I quickly share some housekeeping notes, drop in the chatter comments where you're joining in from today.
3
00:00:36.050 --> 00:01:02.659
Shelby Wilburn: we are recording today's session. So if you're interested in a replay, be on the lookout for an email later today. That email is also going to include a survey for feedback as well as a number of resources that are aligned with today's conversation. And we suggest putting your phone on, do not disturb quitting out of your email and messaging apps. So you can really get the most out of today's discussion. And it's also going to help with your audio and video quality, and we love interaction. So feel free to share your thoughts and comments with us in the chat.
4
00:01:02.660 --> 00:01:06.769
Shelby Wilburn: Now to get this show underway. I'm going to introduce our speakers for today
5
00:01:07.970 --> 00:01:29.430
Shelby Wilburn: an Aussie turn New Yorker who coined the term neuro leadership when he co-founded Nli over 2 decades ago, with a professional doctorate, 4 successful books under his name, and a multitude of bylines ranging from the Harvard Business Review to the New York Times, and many more a warm welcome to the cofounder and CEO of the Neuro Leadership Institute. Dr. David Rock. Thanks for being here today, David.
6
00:01:29.730 --> 00:01:31.839
Dr. David Rock: Thanks, Shelby. Great to be back.
7
00:01:31.840 --> 00:01:47.930
Shelby Wilburn: Great to have you and our moderator for today is the director of Research at the Neuro Leadership Institute, where she focuses on translating cognitive and social neuroscience into actionable solutions for organizations as well as helps communicate relevant research in an accessible manner for the public.
8
00:01:48.000 --> 00:02:06.990
Shelby Wilburn: Previously she was a professor at Dominican College and New York University, and a researcher at the Nathan Klein Institute. She holds a bachelor's degree from Brown University and a Phd. In neuroscience from New York University a warm welcome to the Director of Research at Nli. Dr. Msaro. Thanks for being here today, Emma and I will pass it over to you.
9
00:02:06.990 --> 00:02:10.280
Dr. Emma Sarro: Thanks, Shelby. Hey, David! Nice to be here with you again.
10
00:02:10.570 --> 00:02:15.149
Dr. David Rock: Definitely great. Look forward to this conversation. It's a really it's a really rich one.
11
00:02:15.150 --> 00:02:25.509
Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, and actually, for all of you here, it's not just us. Today. We do have a surprise guest joining us towards the end. So if you're patient with us, we will. You'll get to see who it is.
12
00:02:25.800 --> 00:02:49.880
Dr. Emma Sarro: But that's just a little teaser. We've been doing a lot of work around leadership and those essential skills that leaders need to get the most out of their team for anyone who's been following us. One of the areas that we've been thinking about is how we manage the performance of our team. And in fact, there seems to be a lot of renewed energy around performance management. Again, taking into account this new steady state that we're finding ourselves in around hybrid work
13
00:02:50.010 --> 00:03:01.160
Dr. Emma Sarro: and the need for even more agility and accountability. And actually, a recent Gallup report finds that only 18% of U Us. Employees consider their organizations agile.
14
00:03:01.700 --> 00:03:22.676
Dr. Emma Sarro: So we've always anchored on performance management, generally being around conversations that you're having not necessarily the tech that you put in place. And we talked about these as being 6 main conversations. So these conversations are your check in conversations, goal setting, end of cycle, compensation and career conversations.
15
00:03:23.369 --> 00:03:40.719
Dr. Emma Sarro: And last, but not least, the feedback conversations which we feel are the most important ones for continued and sustained improvement. And so this one is the Mo one that we were focusing on today. And I'll just start this off a bit and ask David, why do you think feedback is the most important type of conversation.
16
00:03:41.300 --> 00:03:48.569
Dr. David Rock: Yeah, it's it's interesting. When you look at sort of the the the tonnage of conversations people have like, if you, if you actually could like
17
00:03:48.650 --> 00:04:11.694
Dr. David Rock: have a a stopwatch that went on and off automatically, maybe an AI. When when A, when a manager had a some kind of performance conversation with the team. Right? You know, if you do goal setting really right, it's it's like 15 min a year, or maybe half an hour a year. Right? If you do the check ins really right? Maybe it's an hour a year across, you know, 3 or 4 check ins right? If you do Co. A. Co. You know a Comp. Conversation. It should be about 15 min if you do
18
00:04:11.930 --> 00:04:24.050
Dr. David Rock: the career conversation. Maybe it's half an hour to an hour but if you if you're doing feedback right it's actually many, many hours. And it's it's something that really should be happening, you know, weekly or certainly a few times every month
19
00:04:24.050 --> 00:04:29.520
Dr. David Rock: when it's right. So if you sort of look at the the kind of best practice for the 4 conversations.
20
00:04:30.360 --> 00:04:49.570
Dr. David Rock: it's really the the feedback is the one that that should be really woven into the day to day practices of people, and and probably 2030, 40 times as much tonnage of time and energy as the other ones, but that's, you know, usually not the case. Usually it's nowhere near that. So it's so as well as being sort of
21
00:04:49.690 --> 00:04:53.429
Dr. David Rock: should be the biggest. It also probably has the biggest gap
22
00:04:53.530 --> 00:04:55.330
Dr. David Rock: in terms of
23
00:04:56.046 --> 00:04:57.880
Dr. David Rock: sort of how much people
24
00:04:57.910 --> 00:05:01.039
Dr. David Rock: could get and and want and how much they get?
25
00:05:01.515 --> 00:05:05.519
Dr. David Rock: So we've surveyed people a lot like, you know, how much really useful feedback do you get
26
00:05:05.530 --> 00:05:07.549
Dr. David Rock: that actually helps you?
27
00:05:07.892 --> 00:05:29.430
Dr. David Rock: Like really grow. And let's let's ask the community here how how many times a week? Or let's let's say how many times a month, just to keep it sort of consistent. How many times a month in your role would you get some kind of feedback or or have a conversation with someone that's that actually helps you do better. Maybe you're coding better. Maybe you're building presentations better now. Maybe you're running meetings better. How many times
28
00:05:29.930 --> 00:05:33.939
Dr. David Rock: month. So if it's weekly, maybe, say 4 times a month. Just put in the chat. How many times a month
29
00:05:33.960 --> 00:05:36.860
Dr. David Rock: would you get feedback? That actually helps you get better?
30
00:05:37.350 --> 00:05:45.830
Dr. David Rock: So Marianne is saying twice a month, saying 4 times a month, not often, unless I ask for it once a year. There we go, 4 to 6 times a month, maybe once.
31
00:05:45.870 --> 00:05:53.250
Dr. David Rock: Thanks everyone. Yeah. Keep putting him in there. How many times a month. So maybe once a month. 0 thanks. Once so pretty low.
32
00:05:53.595 --> 00:06:06.219
Dr. David Rock: There's one person constantly fantastic. Love it. So it's really interesting when you, if if you're to study like the way people just work again, if you were just to like film people and like record and watch
33
00:06:06.320 --> 00:06:20.130
Dr. David Rock: if you if you could know, like, how many times people were unsure about what they did. You could sort of see inside the employees head and say, How how many times a month are they unsure? And they wish they could have some information. It's really every day
34
00:06:20.795 --> 00:06:33.679
Dr. David Rock: and if you have some managers, how many times you know a month do you wish you could say something? It's like, Oh, my gosh! I wish almost every day I wish I could say something to my employee. So you've got this weird dynamic right? Okay?
35
00:06:33.680 --> 00:06:34.240
Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah.
36
00:06:34.240 --> 00:06:41.519
Dr. David Rock: But really want feedback. People really want to give it. There's a massive gap. It's really interesting. So.
37
00:06:42.129 --> 00:07:11.179
Dr. Emma Sarro: I mean, I mean, I would also ask the audience again, because I think I think it comes down to like the the challenges we face when we even think about giving feedback. So when you think about like, you know, I need to give feedback to my my team member, like, what are those initial thoughts that are coming up? Especially if the feedback is going to be constructive feedback, you know, to help them get better at something, and at the same time kind of like the flip side of that is, how does it feel when someone comes to you and says, I need to give you feedback.
38
00:07:12.060 --> 00:07:13.409
Dr. David Rock: So that's 2, 10 questions.
39
00:07:13.410 --> 00:07:13.910
Dr. Emma Sarro: Sure. Yeah.
40
00:07:13.910 --> 00:07:16.170
Dr. David Rock: One. Let's give people one question.
41
00:07:16.170 --> 00:07:21.400
Dr. Emma Sarro: Well, the first one. How do you feel when you know you have to give feedback.
42
00:07:21.630 --> 00:07:43.410
Dr. David Rock: Right. What is to feel like when you need to give feedback? What's the experience for you? Be curious. Let's throw that in the chat. What does it feel like for you when you need to give feedback? Thanks, Antonia. Awkward! How does feel? And we'll come back to this fact a little bit expecting defensiveness. Thanks, misty. How does it feel like it depends. Yeah. Stress. I do it daily. So an opportunity varies. Anxiety ridden uncomfortable.
43
00:07:44.460 --> 00:07:46.099
Dr. David Rock: price it to do it right.
44
00:07:46.950 --> 00:07:49.749
Dr. David Rock: Dollars doesn't work. So it's a break.
45
00:07:49.750 --> 00:07:50.089
Dr. Emma Sarro: You look.
46
00:07:50.090 --> 00:08:04.819
Dr. David Rock: I think. Yeah, depends a lot. It does depend, of course, on the kind of feedback and on who and the relationship and all those things. But on average there's a there's some anxiety, right? And I think it's the degree of anxiety it could be very mild anxiety, like, I hope this goes okay, like a mild level one.
47
00:08:05.138 --> 00:08:19.429
Dr. David Rock: If you've got a great relationship, it might be mild level one threat. If you've if there's some issues, it might be level. 2 threat. And if, like, there's some real issues that might be a level 3 threat which is, you know, you might feel overwhelmed by it. So so there's a lot of different different emotions there.
48
00:08:19.778 --> 00:08:47.919
Dr. David Rock: In in this situation. But you know, someone brought out a point there. I think it's important that that you know, in in a world where things are more hybrid, we actually need to give, you have more feedback conversations. I think this is a really important point. Emma mentioned earlier about sort of there's a renewed focus on performance management, right? And and and I wanna just make a point about that. Like definitely, we're in a more of a steady state around hybrid. So maybe if your company is all back in the office, it's not as different. But most companies there's a mix
49
00:08:47.920 --> 00:08:50.429
Dr. David Rock: of in out of the office. Some kind of hybrid
50
00:08:50.510 --> 00:09:09.109
Dr. David Rock: in that world. Performance management is really different when you're not seeing people all the time. And you actually need a lot more conversations. And and they need to kind of be st set set up and and and scheduled, or they don't happen because you don't get the natural conversation. So so there's this whole like additional focus on how do we do performance management
51
00:09:09.150 --> 00:09:24.840
Dr. David Rock: in a hybrid world. And and we keep being asked to that by companies. And the answer we keep coming back to is, you really want to get this feedback piece right? Because it's not really about the end of year Thing or the quarterly thing. It's actually about the the flow day to day, week to week.
52
00:09:24.840 --> 00:09:40.330
Dr. David Rock: And so you really need to get this feedback stuff right? So that the flow of work is is is really right week to week. If you're not seeing someone and things go astray, you don't want to find that out in a quarter so that's that's something that we saw. And then there's also this
53
00:09:40.350 --> 00:09:58.069
Dr. David Rock: really accelerated, focused on agility. Given AI and other technologies, people just like, Wow, we need to be much more agile. And a big piece of that is like giving feedback and people knowing how they're doing and changing goals and changing strategies. And you know all this stuff so basically need richer communication.
54
00:09:58.320 --> 00:09:59.110
Dr. Emma Sarro: Vienna.
55
00:09:59.520 --> 00:10:11.719
Dr. Emma Sarro: and I think what's coming up for me now is just that. Then you also don't want to cross over the line of being like of surveying your team at the same time. I mean, how often do you check in to make sure they're kind of on track.
56
00:10:12.104 --> 00:10:17.019
Dr. Emma Sarro: so you don't really want to cross that line either. So how do you? How do you kind of like kind of balance that.
57
00:10:17.760 --> 00:10:41.689
Dr. David Rock: Yeah, the third, the third theme that we're seeing, you know, there's there's there's the hybrid work. There's the sort of agility. And the third thing is accountability is, the companies everywhere are saying, look, we got all this pressure on us to do less with more. We really need to know people delivering, delivering, delivering, and again, like the the best way to do that is, in a conversation you're having having constantly, not in an end of month or end of quarter. So so all 3 reasons. It feels like
58
00:10:41.740 --> 00:10:47.109
Dr. David Rock: there's this renewed interest in you know, in in feedback, it's become really important.
59
00:10:47.450 --> 00:10:59.719
Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, and this is renewed. I mean, we've we've been in this field for a long time thinking about feedback and maybe at the beginning was, were the reasons the same. So when did you start jumping into into feedback.
60
00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:28.420
Dr. David Rock: Yeah, it's it's interesting. It's actually been one of those things that's always been an issue. So I remember, like, like we started in 1998. I know I'm aging myself like 1998 is like an entire century ago. So so the business started in the first thing that we did as a company was. We were training executive coaches, and we started. Then doing some organizations came to us and said, Can you help us turn our managers into coaches. And so we started doing in house coaching programs, building coaches. It was
61
00:11:28.420 --> 00:11:30.999
Dr. David Rock: really profoundly powerful even then.
62
00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:52.120
Dr. David Rock: and then the next thing that happened is is companies said, well, the the biggest challenge we have is actually, people can't give feedback. And so all the way back in about the year 2,000. It's literally 24 years ago we started building feedback trainings, and I look back at those. I've still got the decks. I'm a hoarder. I'm a digital hoarder. I look back to the decks just recently, and there's a lot we actually had ride
63
00:11:52.713 --> 00:12:08.740
Dr. David Rock: although our our point of view is massively evolved. But it's evolved, not changed. It's it's on the same path. And the path we had right back then was feedback causes. A threat. Feedback makes people really uncomfortable. And if you don't do something about that threat, the feedback doesn't really do anything.
64
00:12:09.040 --> 00:12:24.069
Dr. David Rock: And so we we had these different ways, you know, before we even had scarf of like introducing, you know, threat, reducing conversations. And, you know, asking questions instead of telling people and all this stuff. So it's it actually was for the first thing that we did with companies.
65
00:12:24.690 --> 00:12:31.099
Dr. David Rock: Literally 24 years ago, was these, you know, feedback programs. And we scaled them quite a bit, and they had quite a good result.
66
00:12:31.804 --> 00:12:44.199
Dr. David Rock: But it it it still continued to be something that like, really, you know, really, over that whole 24 years it's continued to be something that's like the hardest kind of nut to crack
67
00:12:44.718 --> 00:12:55.879
Dr. David Rock: and and really hard to know exactly how to like. Fix this and then a a long came this opportunity with Microsoft. I guess it was about 7 years ago now. And
68
00:12:56.100 --> 00:13:12.110
Dr. David Rock: it's really interesting opportunity. They they basically said, they get. They gave us this kind of dream project, they said, look, we've been running feedback programs for, for you know, 1520 years, and nothing seems to change. And we're like, Wow, we've been running them a lot. They seem to be really popular. But it's still really a problem like as well.
69
00:13:12.110 --> 00:13:13.899
Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, figure it out.
70
00:13:14.140 --> 00:13:41.390
Dr. David Rock: Yeah, there's like, what do we know in the science that like that can change this conundrum like, what can we learn from science that really changes this situation. So we can actually like teach people well, and then it it, it's fixed right? Like, can we fix this problem? And we're like great research project. We. We started working on it and looks a long story. I could spend an hour just explaining the the the study we did. We did a lot. The the cliff note is we studied 35 different feedback models.
71
00:13:42.018 --> 00:13:51.389
Dr. David Rock: So so you know, like the feedback sandwich is one, you know it's like, Be nice, you know. Deliver feedback, be nice again. So we studied 35 different models that we thought from
72
00:13:51.400 --> 00:14:11.800
Dr. David Rock: from what we could find online, and everything were were the most dominant feedback models. And what we studied what we were looking for is kind of categorizing them to any of them look like they really work. Is there any evidence? Is there any academic evidence that they work which one from academic research is being studied? And what we found was, it was just unbelievably noisy. There was no signal.
73
00:14:11.800 --> 00:14:29.010
Dr. David Rock: It's just no signal at all. There was no feedback model that stood out as like really the one to use, and that really worked best. That were just different. And they were all essentially doing the same kind of thing which was really scary. They were all like, dance around. The fact
74
00:14:29.040 --> 00:14:33.339
Dr. David Rock: that feedback is really uncomfortable. But you're not really doing anything about it.
75
00:14:33.470 --> 00:14:34.360
Dr. David Rock: Yep.
76
00:14:34.570 --> 00:15:00.920
Dr. David Rock: we sort of like, like, yeah, you know, like, you know, don't make it personal, you know. Take it away. But but people take it personally so that you can't change that. The second thing we did was we looked at we looked at what all the actual academics today think about it. So we interviewed big group of academics, the heads of business schools. We interviewed about 6 different Ivy League business school heads. Who, you know, would teach this stuff and and study this stuff.
77
00:15:00.920 --> 00:15:09.900
Dr. David Rock: and there was no signal there. It was terrifying. I I won't terrify you. How scary those conversations were. The cliff night was like we had to teach something.
78
00:15:09.900 --> 00:15:30.949
Dr. David Rock: So we teach this. We don't really think it works. But we're teaching us. I'm like, these are the future Ceos of the world you're teaching. And you you literally don't teach them how to give feedback. Amazing. So then we so nothing was sort of working. Oh, then we did a Literature Review way back, like literally a hundred years like what is there in the literature? We really studied that, and our team synthesized and digested and looked at like everything that we know
79
00:15:31.210 --> 00:15:41.139
Dr. David Rock: about feedback. And we tried to synthesize that. And we're, you know, we are like world leading synthesizers. That's something that we you know, with the role of Stage 101 of of
80
00:15:41.470 --> 00:15:42.690
Dr. David Rock: synthesizes.
81
00:15:42.690 --> 00:15:46.229
Dr. Emma Sarro: As a lot of material into something very simple.
82
00:15:46.230 --> 00:16:13.059
Dr. David Rock: Yeah, it's a music joke for people in the music space. But the the synthesizer like the synthesizing process like we, we're really good at finding like even very subtle patterns, and we just couldn't find a pattern in all the literature. There was nothing which is really blowing us away. And then I had this this idea, like it, seems so obvious and and dumb at the time. I said, why don't we look at what happens in the brain when feedback actually works
83
00:16:13.140 --> 00:16:29.640
Dr. David Rock: and see if we can deconstruct like a mental model for how to do feedback based on like the brain. Like, let's look at what happens there. And so we interviewed a bunch of scientists, and we did a bunch of research, and we found that there was a process. And it was a very simple process.
84
00:16:29.920 --> 00:16:49.119
Dr. David Rock: and the basic concept was for feedback to work. There was a moment that happened in it. It sounds a little bit like an insight moment, but it's a particular kind of insight but it does release energy. It has similarities to insight. It does release energy. It does create motivation. It does change the brain. But it's a certain kind of insight. It's essentially
85
00:16:49.170 --> 00:17:10.179
Dr. David Rock: you have to do this thing called mental contrasting, which is basically holding 2 complex ideas in mind at the same time and comparing them right. And lots of being lots has been written about mental contrasting. You know the ability to hold 2 different ideas and not explode your brain. And you know all this stuff. Like an example of that is that people are bad at is if you've got.
86
00:17:10.270 --> 00:17:33.349
Dr. David Rock: If you've got 2 bad options in a scenario, people just can't think about them because they just don't like bad options, because you, you know. But sometimes you need to think about 2 bad options, and it's sort of hard to do, and it takes some complicated gymnastics in a similar way, when someone gives you feedback, let's say about the way you run meetings for it to actually be useful. You've gotta hold in real time in your working memory like doing math.
87
00:17:33.350 --> 00:17:50.680
Dr. David Rock: You've gotta hold a picture of the way you currently run meetings. That picture will involve a huge map of memories of all the meetings. You've run, all the books you've read, all the good meetings bad. But you gotta activate this mental map in working memory and across the brain the way you run meetings. And then you've got to create a mental map
88
00:17:50.770 --> 00:18:06.270
Dr. David Rock: based on the feedback someone's giving you like, you know. Why don't you let other people run them? Or why don't you do them in 25 min instead? Or why don't you do them this way? You gotta like, you gotta create this mental map, this picture of the other way of doing it and actually picture it and actually compare it to the first picture.
89
00:18:06.350 --> 00:18:14.939
Dr. David Rock: And this is mental contrasting. And I'm going slowly, sort of trying to help you picture it because it's it's basically a really difficult thing to do. And what happens is
90
00:18:15.583 --> 00:18:38.199
Dr. David Rock: anything like it's like doing long division in your head. Some of you actually remember what long division is? It's it's like doing long division in your head, where you you sort of got up this step and this step, and this step, and this step, and anything that comes along and interrupts you, you start again. Now, the problem is the thing that comes along and interrupts you constantly. When someone gives you feedback is basically this thought. Why are you telling me this? Who are you to tell me this.
91
00:18:38.200 --> 00:18:38.810
Dr. Emma Sarro: Yep.
92
00:18:38.810 --> 00:18:47.709
Dr. David Rock: I I this isn't fair. You basically have a status threat and a fairness threat, maybe an autonomy threat. You having all this threat response. And your brains basically
93
00:18:47.770 --> 00:18:49.850
Dr. David Rock: like trying to deflect.
94
00:18:50.020 --> 00:18:54.299
Dr. David Rock: And this response takes away oxygen and glucose from.
95
00:18:54.300 --> 00:18:54.670
Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah.
96
00:18:54.670 --> 00:19:04.949
Dr. David Rock: The network needs to mentally contrast. Right? So so this is what happened. So basically, we saw, look, you need a lot of cognitive resources to mentally contrast. And
97
00:19:05.330 --> 00:19:24.720
Dr. David Rock: and basically the act of like having a feedback conversation significantly reduces those. And this explains why, you know, some of you be feedback in 6 months later, when you're not upset anymore, you'll be able to think about it. And you're going. Oh, maybe they were right, you know. Yeah. So anyway, that's what we saw. So so basically, we saw, look, we, we say, look anything.
98
00:19:24.970 --> 00:19:30.799
Dr. David Rock: any model that doesn't significantly reduce feedback. Sorry. The threat, the threat of feedback
99
00:19:31.010 --> 00:19:33.220
Dr. David Rock: doesn't, isn't going to work
100
00:19:33.784 --> 00:19:36.059
Dr. David Rock: and this is explained. So so we said, Well, what
101
00:19:36.220 --> 00:19:38.577
Dr. David Rock: actually reduces the threat? Response,
102
00:19:39.750 --> 00:19:53.050
Dr. David Rock: and what we found was there was only one thing that really reduced the threat response, really, and that was actually not to have a feedback conversation the way they actually work like, literally, don't give someone feedback. You won't create threat. And we're like
103
00:19:54.265 --> 00:19:59.834
Dr. David Rock: and to Nancy's point, like, don't call a feedback that helps as well, but people can tell when you're like
104
00:20:00.380 --> 00:20:03.760
Dr. David Rock: calling it something else, you know. Let me share my perspective on how you messed up.
105
00:20:04.430 --> 00:20:08.030
Dr. David Rock: I can still tell. It's good. So
106
00:20:08.100 --> 00:20:18.998
Dr. David Rock: we thought, Well, what is it you could do? And that actually doesn't create a threat, and that we realize the only thing that you could do is is, if you actually ask for feedback
107
00:20:19.330 --> 00:20:29.929
Dr. David Rock: instead of receiving, if if the person on the receiving it actually asks for it instead of a status threat of like, Oh, my gosh, someone send me something! It actually is a little bit of a status reward like you're looking like you're interested. You're smart.
108
00:20:30.410 --> 00:20:38.959
Dr. David Rock: It's overall leaning in like response. You you're like asking for something that's that's an autonomy reward. So like you're
109
00:20:39.100 --> 00:20:53.289
Dr. David Rock: you're you're actually sort of asking in in the fact that you're asking you, creating autonomy. Reward the little bit more certain for you as well. And you're not feeling like this person's like attacking you or against you, because you're asking. So it's a relatedness reward. So so in all these ways.
110
00:20:53.650 --> 00:21:03.509
Dr. David Rock: it turns down the threat response. A lot, maybe not completely, but it turns it down a lot. So so we have this big Aha! We ran back to Microsoft and said, We think we have the answer, don't give feedback.
111
00:21:04.930 --> 00:21:05.920
Dr. David Rock: What? What?
112
00:21:07.340 --> 00:21:08.130
Dr. David Rock: Feedback?
113
00:21:10.300 --> 00:21:10.990
Dr. David Rock: So
114
00:21:12.020 --> 00:21:18.989
Dr. David Rock: it's it's that's that's what happens. So with with Microsoft, we we then developed a framework we call the perspectives.
115
00:21:19.450 --> 00:21:31.099
Dr. David Rock: and we we launched that a few years ago. Now it's rolled out. We then built that for accenture. They developed well, better next with us. That's gone so like a a million people or something. Now, we helped. Ibm build this
116
00:21:31.562 --> 00:21:43.120
Dr. David Rock: this approach. We've helped maybe 3 or 400 different companies kind of build an approach based on asking so that was the that was the really big big insight. And what we found was that
117
00:21:43.927 --> 00:21:55.120
Dr. David Rock: that that if you teach people to ask, well, folks give feedback. Well, but if you just teach people to ask if you just say, Hey, you know, go and ask for feedback. That actually doesn't go well.
118
00:21:55.763 --> 00:21:59.426
Dr. David Rock: Cause other people say you know you. I like your shoes.
119
00:22:00.047 --> 00:22:13.950
Dr. David Rock: You look good today. So so it's not just. And then we we sort of learnt this pretty quickly. It's not just asking. But you you need to ask. Well, and so the training is not in actually giving feedback. Well, the training we found is in asking for feedback. Well.
120
00:22:13.980 --> 00:22:20.699
Dr. David Rock: and the the interesting thing that happens is when someone, especially a manager, asks for feedback. Well, other people ask back.
121
00:22:20.990 --> 00:22:40.000
Dr. David Rock: and that creates a really powerful, you know, dynamic there. So that's that's kind of the Microsoft story. And then, you know, we ended up launching a solution called Improve that's still, you know, really helpful, powerful solution out there that that literally walks people through how to ask, well, on on feedback. So anyway, that's the that's the story.
122
00:22:41.238 --> 00:23:10.160
Dr. David Rock: Someone's asking about. Yeah, Microsoft, it's called Microsoft perspectives. You can actually Google that you'll see all about it, Microsoft perspectives that wasn't branded at Ibm and it was just kind of woven into the fabric of what they did. But accenture it's called well, better next. So what you do? Well, what what you know. What could you do better in the future? And and what is it to do next? So any yeah. Any questions or comments coming up in the chat. Emma, anything that you see, and folks, if you have any sort of questions, that's I could pause for a minute. We'll see what what's coming up there.
123
00:23:10.160 --> 00:23:24.470
Dr. Emma Sarro: We're getting lots of questions. But one question I think we will end up addressing at some point is, if you really need to give feedback to someone, but they're not asking for it. I know that comes up as we kind of go along our conversation. But what would you initially think about that?
124
00:23:27.790 --> 00:23:37.806
Dr. David Rock: It's really important question. And you know, we've been like attuned to, like, you know, give feedback, give feedback, give feedback. We've always through these training programs. You gotta give lots of feedback.
125
00:23:38.180 --> 00:23:40.310
Dr. David Rock: actually know of one company that
126
00:23:40.646 --> 00:23:53.259
Dr. David Rock: the the operationalized requiring managers to give feedback every week like they had to, and they had to like tick a box and report. And all this stuff the company literally ground to a halt like it. It ended up doing incredibly badly. And
127
00:23:53.649 --> 00:24:01.209
Dr. David Rock: it's it's a. It was an Australian company, not here anymore. And it just it really didn't work. So it's really it's really interesting. But if you
128
00:24:01.913 --> 00:24:09.519
Dr. David Rock: it's there definitely times that you need to just give feedback right? The question. The overall question is, how do you do it, so it says, least
129
00:24:09.640 --> 00:24:12.399
Dr. David Rock: as little threatening as possible. Right creates the least
130
00:24:12.420 --> 00:24:14.539
Dr. David Rock: stress, responds in the other person.
131
00:24:15.010 --> 00:24:25.239
Dr. David Rock: And the answer that will vary, you know like, but but generally, if you can get the person to feel like they have a choice, they they've got some autonomy.
132
00:24:25.928 --> 00:24:44.311
Dr. David Rock: That will help. So in in you know, in the coaching world, when we've trained our coaches that we we call permission, like before you have a coaching conversation. You know. Just check in. You know I have a really close friend. I love him to death, but he's often just like giving me unsolicited coaching, like when I'm not ready. It's like, hang on just like before. You just jump in and do that.
133
00:24:44.620 --> 00:24:55.060
Dr. David Rock: I'm I'm not ready, you know, so if it but if you check with me like, Hey, you know, is this a good time to talk about this? I'd be like, Yeah, okay. And that makes a big difference. So this act of choosing
134
00:24:55.130 --> 00:25:10.839
Dr. David Rock: is really powerful. So so so this first thing would be like, Hey, I have a conversation that I'd like to have with you is now a good time. The second thing is, create a little bit of certainty, because when, soon as you hear that you go, oh, my God, I'm fired right? So I'll always say, like, Hey, you're doing okay, overall, I promise. Your job's not at stake.
135
00:25:11.199 --> 00:25:24.649
Dr. David Rock: And it's just about this project or this thing. So a little bit of permission which creates an autonomy response, a little bit of certainty, right, which which reduces that uncertainty, that panic, and then people's minds will be much open. And then the third thing is, if you can
136
00:25:24.690 --> 00:25:25.950
Dr. David Rock: use a question
137
00:25:25.960 --> 00:25:53.340
Dr. David Rock: because we've we've actually studied this not super formally, but we collected data over quite a lot of workshops, and we found that when given a chance, about 3 quarters of the time, people will know actually what the gap was and what they did wrong, and what they should do do differently. In other words, you know when someone's messed up a a project. If you tell them, hey, you mess up the project this way, they'll tend to argue with you. But if you say, Hey, what are your thoughts on? What you would do differently if you're doing this next time.
138
00:25:53.370 --> 00:26:16.719
Dr. David Rock: About 3 quarters of the time. People are really insightful and really correct about the way they mess up and what they need to do. And so so sort of a little bit of mission, a little bit of of we got placement of of, or context of sort of where you're coming from, re, remove their fears, and then, if you can try and ask it as a question. Now, that doesn't always work. Sometimes you just gotta say, Hey, the way you, you know, organize that
139
00:26:16.720 --> 00:26:42.590
Dr. David Rock: that, you know. Spreadsheet just wasn't really optimal. Can you try this way. That's fine you've given them. You've you've softened the blow but sort of the more likely it's to be threatening the more you wanna do like you know, really permission, really a bit of context, and then ask questions, because about 3 quarters of the time it'll be much less painful for you. So that's what we found when you need to kind of give feedback that way. What else is coming up for you? And folks feel free to ask some questions before we sort of we. I guess we can dig into the research study. We did a bit as well.
140
00:26:42.590 --> 00:26:57.729
Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, which is one of my favorite things. But what's coming up for me is just the idea of the power of the social rewards. I mean, we've just been throwing out all of these different kinds of social rewards that you can the scarf model it. It's amazing. And you just by just by asking, you're giving that choice.
141
00:26:57.730 --> 00:27:20.919
Dr. Emma Sarro: which is why the asking for feedback is so powerful. You're giving the person like the OP. The first step towards getting improving. And as we know, we all want, and we all need that feedback, and we all want to improve. So just giving that option. Take the first step is is enough to kind of like handle whatever is coming your way, that, like potential threat, potential, constructive criticism.
142
00:27:21.260 --> 00:27:49.299
Dr. David Rock: Yeah. And and just I was mentioning scoff. You know, scoff is definitely a framework to remind you to like, send those positive responses around, particularly autonomy and and and status and certainty you know, gives you a really helpful, helpful tool to to think about it. Yeah. But let's talk about the study, I think, and then we'll we'll introduce our special guest. So so really, fun thing that happened is, we were super passionate about this this research we were working at the time with with Microsoft Accenture and others and
143
00:27:49.651 --> 00:27:53.508
Dr. David Rock: and we we we we were working with at the time.
144
00:27:54.213 --> 00:28:19.550
Dr. David Rock: a a big accounting firm in Australia. And we had a really good partnership with the CIO over there, the head of people. And it was a big, you know, big firm. And she said, Oh, I love this feedback stuff. Can we study it? Can we do a study together, and we do this now and again. We'll do a joint study with a company to kind of explore an idea. And we set up this really formal lab in her offices. And again, this is this is a big company. Thousands of people
145
00:28:19.550 --> 00:28:27.770
Dr. David Rock: got roughly 100 people volunteering to do this study. And what without going to the detail of it, what we basically did was we set up a game that they played
146
00:28:28.041 --> 00:28:51.620
Dr. David Rock: and then after that, they would basically give each other feedback, and in certain conditions they would ask for feedback, and otherwise they would just give it. One person would give it, you know. And then then they did another task, a second task, right? That they would have to do together. And so we collected all this really rich data that was behavioral of what happened. And all this stuff, and who performed better. And why? But we also collected bio data. So heart rate.
147
00:28:51.760 --> 00:29:01.430
Dr. David Rock: heart rate variability, all this other stuff. And it was. It took us like a year or so to run this project and collect the data and and explore it, and we discovered some amazing things. The first thing
148
00:29:01.760 --> 00:29:04.470
Dr. David Rock: it was really interesting was, we discovered.
149
00:29:05.178 --> 00:29:15.019
Dr. David Rock: so that we we confirmed our suspicion that feedback was a threat response, but we actually were able to put like a sort of schema to it. We found that
150
00:29:15.325 --> 00:29:23.164
Dr. David Rock: the threat response was about as strong as going for a run. In other words, if you're receiving feedback, if someone says, Can I give you feedback? In this case? It was just about a sort of trivial game, right?
151
00:29:23.470 --> 00:29:50.310
Dr. David Rock: It would be worse in real life. But even on a trivial game, when someone says, Can I give you feedback? The person receiving that their heart rate goes up a lot. And on average it's different between people. What an average was about like you just gone for a run. So a lot. The second thing that was really fascinating, and and we kind of alluded to this in the first question we asked you is that the person giving feedback they had the same or stronger threat response. Isn't that interesting? They had the same or stronger threat response.
152
00:29:50.780 --> 00:30:04.530
Dr. David Rock: And and this explains a lot. This explains like, why people avoid giving feedback. Why it comes out so weird. Why, it's awkward. Is that the the giver of feedback really does have a strong threat response. And again, even
153
00:30:05.412 --> 00:30:19.149
Dr. David Rock: you know, even in a in an environment that's really, you know, relatively trivial. And then the third thing that was really amazing is that in the conditions where someone asked, we found that the threat for both giver and receiver, the threat, for both sides
154
00:30:19.160 --> 00:30:21.879
Dr. David Rock: reduced a lot. It reduced about 50%
155
00:30:22.470 --> 00:30:37.340
Dr. David Rock: and again, there was, you know, variation between people, but roughly, it was about half as stressful for the giver and half as stressful for the receiver. That was like, Wow, that's amazing. It's not like 5% or 10 or 20. It was 50% less stressful. And so this really confirmed our suspicions
156
00:30:38.860 --> 00:30:45.900
Dr. David Rock: and got us really on the path that we're like kind of building this. And and really defining this, we wrote a piece on this in strategy and business.
157
00:30:46.310 --> 00:31:13.280
Dr. David Rock: I think, called using neuroscience to make feedback work or something. My team can put that in the chat, so you can sort of read more about it. But the study was amazing. We ended up publishing 2 academic papers on this and then we built a solution called Improve that literally teaches this you know, and all all that happened. Just, you know, before we change topics and take questions while we're on that. If anyone's interested and you're from a company and you're interested in exploring the improved solution. Just put the word improve in the chat.
158
00:31:13.460 --> 00:31:37.400
Dr. David Rock: and maybe your company name just put improve in your company name, and someone will follow up with you in the next in the next week, and just in case you're interested in that. So so moving on, anyway, that was the study. And we did that some time ago, I think 2,01520 16. We published it. So it's a while ago now. But it's still like super relevant and and super important. So yeah, Emma, what's coming out for you? What do you wanna dig into there?
159
00:31:37.570 --> 00:31:52.720
Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, well, one of the one of the results that I think is is most amazing. On top of the fact that asking reduces kind of the stress level on both sides by half half is just that we did ask individuals to kind of play like a collaborative game afterwards.
160
00:31:52.720 --> 00:32:11.877
Dr. Emma Sarro: and the performance of those pairs was much better when they had this asking for feedback conversation, so that reduce stress actually helped them to to work better together afterwards. So you can imagine that if you're regularly asking for feedback with each other, then your ability to work better together afterwards, as much is, has
161
00:32:12.220 --> 00:32:13.600
Dr. Emma Sarro: hugely improved.
162
00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:35.097
Dr. David Rock: Yeah, there's a couple of questions about neuro divergent folks and feedback. And I think you know, as a general rule. And and you know, neuro divergence is really broad as a term. There's a lot of people with quite different kinds of you know, needs there, right? And and we we sort of categorize it as in 3 ways. There, there are definitely folks with very specific needs that need accommodations.
163
00:32:35.674 --> 00:32:57.769
Dr. David Rock: because they're they're highly neurodent. Maybe it, you know, maybe on an autism spectrum or some other spectrum. You know, we we tend to sort of think about those, but about something like 30 to 50% of all employees have mental health challenges. That that need some kind of accommodation. And you know, high high anxiety could be. Depression could be all sorts of things. So it's a really big population.
164
00:32:58.136 --> 00:33:07.659
Dr. David Rock: Really do better with some kind of accommodation. And then you've got sort of the whole population where basically, everyone actually processes the world really differently.
165
00:33:07.934 --> 00:33:30.719
Dr. David Rock: And so there's kind of that type of neuro divergence. But if we're focusing on sort of that first category that I mentioned of people who really need some kind of accommodation. Definitely like the autonomy factor is gonna make a big difference like the, the essentially what's what's happening with those people is that it's easier to stress them like it's easier for them to have a stress response. Smaller things can create a larger stress response. Right? So what
166
00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:51.580
Dr. David Rock: what you wanna do there is is kind of go even further down the path that I was saying of, like really checking that it's a good time to have that conversation, really asking that it's okay to do it, even asking what's the best way they want the information like, do you want it in a, in in writing? Do you want a conversation? Do you want to ask questions of me right? Do you wanna tell me what you like giving that person more and more control?
167
00:33:51.905 --> 00:33:58.770
Dr. David Rock: Of the experience and and really feeling like you're in the same side of the table as them. So you're sort of just going further down that path.
168
00:33:59.422 --> 00:34:01.350
Dr. David Rock: That I was explaining
169
00:34:02.205 --> 00:34:02.880
Dr. David Rock: in.
170
00:34:03.260 --> 00:34:08.952
Dr. David Rock: And you know in that way, very good. What? What else is coming up for you in the chat? Emma, before we go.
171
00:34:09.560 --> 00:34:21.469
Dr. Emma Sarro: So? Courtney asked in our, in our question, is any research as to the timing or like context, the place where feedback is best received, so we cover that a bit too.
172
00:34:22.150 --> 00:34:42.020
Dr. David Rock: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Look. The the general principle is, do everything you can to reduce the threat response, the likelihood of a threat response, right the likelihood of a threat response. So generally, when do we have a threat response? Right? When when do we get anxious and think about it? It's like, we're already overwhelmed. Right? So we're now. Cognitive resources are already sort of taxed.
173
00:34:42.020 --> 00:34:53.109
Dr. David Rock: What happens is there's a lot of noise and asynchrony across the prefrontal. The network for controlling emotions is in the prefrontal. It's the brains breaking system at the the ventral, lateral prefrontal.
174
00:34:53.460 --> 00:35:03.720
Dr. David Rock: So anything that sort of anytime is your brain's kind of already overwhelmed, which means you got fewer resources for prefrontal. You're probably gonna accidentally get more anxious. So that includes
175
00:35:03.790 --> 00:35:05.519
Dr. David Rock: overwhelmed, but also includes
176
00:35:05.700 --> 00:35:10.310
Dr. David Rock: being tired, you know, when you're really retired, it includes. If you're sick.
177
00:35:10.880 --> 00:35:12.140
Dr. David Rock: it includes
178
00:35:12.966 --> 00:35:39.900
Dr. David Rock: also, if you're already upset about something else. So it's it's really sort of anytime that that people are not well resourced and not well resourced means this network for conscious processing is is diminished. So what does that mean? Don't have the conversation like on a Wednesday afternoon when someone's overwhelmed right? Maybe a Friday afternoon when they have a second wind is better. Don't have it when people are already upset. And and look at the the environment like a people calm
179
00:35:39.900 --> 00:35:46.129
Dr. David Rock: they are. Do you need to take a walk right? Sometimes the best feedback conversations are actually taking a walk with someone
180
00:35:46.481 --> 00:36:06.310
Dr. David Rock: and having a conversation, because the walking actually comes the brain and reduces the emotions and reduces distractions. So the environment matters but their their general state of mind matters so, and and the the dominant factor is is what what helps them be resourced. So they don't accidentally, you know. Get that that threat response.
181
00:36:06.470 --> 00:36:27.390
Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah. So again, working with their own autonomy, asking them what's best for them, and working with the way that their capacity is, makes a lot of sense. Also, one more question from Stuart is, he's asking about known whether this feedback ties back to known intrinsic goals? What the direct report is most passionate about.
182
00:36:28.680 --> 00:36:36.169
Dr. David Rock: Yeah, I mean, this is this is about like minimizing that threat response. Right? So again.
183
00:36:36.170 --> 00:37:03.730
Dr. David Rock: the the way you minimize threat response one way is, is kind of don't. Don't give people negatives like don't say, you know you're an idiot. That addresses the you know. That's a status threat. But the other thing is create positives right? And one of the ways that we create positives is with aligning on shared goals. Right? So a shared goal creates relatedness, the R and scar. Right for those new set. It's status, certainty, autonomy, relatedness, and fairness.
184
00:37:03.730 --> 00:37:25.909
Dr. David Rock: So when you feel like you have a shared goal with someone when you're triangulating on the same thing, both looking at the same thing, it creates a strong reward response in the form of feeling like you're on the same team that you could trust this person. They've got your back, you know all these kinds of things. So so if you can, you can start a feedback conversation with triangulating and putting attention on, you know, goals you both share.
185
00:37:25.910 --> 00:37:48.069
Dr. David Rock: and particularly goals that that matter to that person. You're creating a strong toward response. And that's gonna turn down the likelihood of threat. So all all of these things, you can kind of see how they're they're they're either re reducing the chance of a threat or increasing the reward side. And you know, in in all sorts of different ways. So that's a that's a really good one.
186
00:37:48.340 --> 00:38:03.989
Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, absolutely. So we've been through this study. We've talked about like our major findings. So synthesizing all of that, what do we typically say, are like the 4 main reasons why we need to ask for feedback or create this culture of asking for feedback.
187
00:38:04.250 --> 00:38:19.619
Dr. David Rock: Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. I mean, we go right back to where we started. People just don't get anywhere near enough of it, right? Like. There's maybe 3 or 4 people in the chat out of a hundred comments that said, I'm getting plenty there's more than a hundred people saying, you know, there's a big gap. So the first one is just to get a lot more feedback
188
00:38:19.981 --> 00:38:25.440
Dr. David Rock: and as as whether you're a manager or an individual contributor, actually knowing how you're doing
189
00:38:25.795 --> 00:38:40.269
Dr. David Rock: and being able to course correct like like weekly, is amazing. Right? You you literally grow faster, you perform better. So so the first reason just to get a lot more feedback. So you can actually perform better right and not just fix problems, but just do better like
190
00:38:40.400 --> 00:38:57.100
Dr. David Rock: so many times. You know I'll see the way someone does something I'll be like. I wish I could tell them, you know, to like, you know. Write more clearly, right? But I can't. If we don't have a feedback culture it's too uncomfortable. So if you're asking you just get a lot more feedback. The second reason this is really important
191
00:38:57.730 --> 00:38:59.000
Dr. David Rock: is is
192
00:38:59.495 --> 00:39:25.449
Dr. David Rock: you could actually get unbiased feedback or or less biased feedback because the problem with receiving it when you receive it, is you basically receive it from people who are really, really upset with you. Now. So generally, we don't give feedback until we're actually, really upset with someone and to be like the Internet. You know this, the Internet is full of like negative reviews, not many positive reviews for everything pretty much because people go in and express their opinion when they're finally upset and they worked up
193
00:39:25.886 --> 00:39:30.460
Dr. David Rock: negative is stronger than positive. So the second reason to be asking for feedback
194
00:39:30.720 --> 00:39:36.460
Dr. David Rock: other than just get a lot of it is actually get richer, more accurate, less biased feedback
195
00:39:36.782 --> 00:39:41.079
Dr. David Rock: and if you're just waiting. You just get it from sort of annoyed people or your boss.
196
00:39:41.410 --> 00:39:47.229
Dr. David Rock: But if you want to know, like how to run the best possible customer presentation you want to ask.
197
00:39:47.240 --> 00:39:54.090
Dr. David Rock: You don't just want to like, wait till your boss happens to tell you. You actually want to ask lots of different people every time you do a presentation really?
198
00:39:54.520 --> 00:40:06.499
Dr. David Rock: Like, that's the optimal. And if you ask one person, you, what you'll notice is that it's just kind of their perspective. You ask 2 people, you ask 3 people. Once you get to 4 or 5 people, you see that pretty much. All feedback
199
00:40:06.540 --> 00:40:10.019
Dr. David Rock: is massively changed by the person's own experiences.
200
00:40:10.110 --> 00:40:13.129
Dr. David Rock: But once you ask 4 or 5 people, you start to see a bit of a theme.
201
00:40:13.550 --> 00:40:31.299
Dr. David Rock: And so it's really important to ask a lot of people? And this question, and I've applied this to like medical issues, like, if I've got a really serious medical issue, I don't go to one, doctor. I'm gonna go to 3 to 5 doctors because there's so much bias and and sort of history for them in in their in their answers, you know no offense to doctors.
202
00:40:31.300 --> 00:40:58.600
Dr. David Rock: but it's it's you, you know. See this every single time. So in in a similar way, if you ask 3 to 5 people on anything's important, you actually get really interesting data. Now, you actually see the pattern but you know, one person will comment on your fonts. Another person will comment on your you know, on the the on the slides, and the visuals, and another person will comment on something else. But you'll you'll notice that all of them have this theme of like maybe tell more stories, or maybe maybe slow down, or something right? So
203
00:40:58.620 --> 00:41:04.409
Dr. David Rock: which, until you ask 3 to 5 people, you don't really see that. So now the the the reason is
204
00:41:04.855 --> 00:41:07.620
Dr. David Rock: to actually get unbiased feedback that's accurate.
205
00:41:08.317 --> 00:41:13.219
Dr. David Rock: And if you don't ask, you'll never get that. So to get lots of it to get it unbiased.
206
00:41:13.560 --> 00:41:17.899
Dr. David Rock: The next reason is to actually get feedback on the things that you need feedback on.
207
00:41:18.090 --> 00:41:24.249
Dr. David Rock: right like, if you're trying to improve your customer presentations, ask about that right and ask specifically, you know.
208
00:41:24.310 --> 00:41:28.570
Dr. David Rock: And and and so, you know, it's a bunch of reasons like that. And essentially at the end of the day it's like.
209
00:41:28.900 --> 00:41:32.690
Dr. David Rock: if you don't ask, you get rare, biased
210
00:41:33.250 --> 00:41:39.760
Dr. David Rock: mostly unhelpful charged feedback. And if you ask, you know frequently and broadly
211
00:41:39.830 --> 00:41:44.820
Dr. David Rock: right of people. You know, lots of different people who ask frequently and ask specifically
212
00:41:44.950 --> 00:41:51.039
Dr. David Rock: what you find is that every week you're getting really helpful, unbiased feedback. And you're actually just your performance is accelerating.
213
00:41:51.180 --> 00:41:55.929
Dr. David Rock: So this is, you know, companies say to me all the time, what do we do about performance management? I say.
214
00:41:55.980 --> 00:42:01.810
Dr. David Rock: forget everything. Get this one thing right like, get everyone actually asking for feedback well
215
00:42:01.960 --> 00:42:13.120
Dr. David Rock: and giving feedback reasonably in response. And that's what accelerates performance. Because now you go from every employee getting random feedback every few months to everyone getting multiple, really helpful feedback points every week
216
00:42:13.250 --> 00:42:24.380
Dr. David Rock: to me. That's what accelerates performance. That's what accelerates accountability agility. And you know, and performance overall. So that's why I think this is the number one thing for for really creating change.
217
00:42:24.550 --> 00:42:43.894
Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, absolutely. And I can see it reducing the number of times you'll have to have those performance gap conversations or those difficult conversations, because performance is improving along the way people are fixing their mistakes along the way. And and you'll you'll reduce the chances of having to have those tough conversations. Yeah, definitely, power.
218
00:42:44.500 --> 00:42:45.260
Dr. Emma Sarro: yeah.
219
00:42:45.490 --> 00:42:47.460
Dr. David Rock: Any other questions coming up that we want to address. There.
220
00:42:47.460 --> 00:43:00.570
Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah. Well, Brenda asked. About the alignment between explicit or implicit implied expectation. So like people are not always clear about what's expected of them. So how does this kind of like feed into this idea?
221
00:43:01.350 --> 00:43:15.010
Dr. David Rock: Yeah, this is a really really important one. So we're really bad. You know, managers are really bad at delegating as a whole, we had a session on this a few weeks ago. There are kind of 3 3 traps that people fall into around delegating. Maybe we can put that
222
00:43:15.760 --> 00:43:43.429
Dr. David Rock: in here the the one trap is is kind of over like, like, basically micromanaging. Right? So a lot of people give just like too much information, but that that just makes people have a threat response, an autonomy threat. And and and you're being too prescriptive like leaving no space for people to make decisions, and and now the feedbacks gonna be. You didn't do it exactly the way I wanted right. But people don't do things exactly the way your brain sees them. People do things the way their brain sees things, and
223
00:43:43.430 --> 00:44:00.040
Dr. David Rock: you gotta leave space. So that's that's really complicated. So if you're if you're giving too much information, too prescriptive micromanaging. It's really doesn't work, and feedback will be really difficult. Then the other way of giving feedback is managing by abdication, we call it, which is like just basically telling people nothing, not giving them any clever expectations.
224
00:44:00.334 --> 00:44:14.845
Dr. David Rock: and kind of hoping that. You know that things will work out, and a lot of people with high autonomy needs themselves as managers do, that they they kind of just don't tell people much at all, and hope they'll succeed. And now, feedbacks really tough, they've no clear expectations.
225
00:44:15.260 --> 00:44:28.409
Dr. David Rock: How do you give feedback when you really didn't? You really weren't clear on? You know, on what was expected of them. So those are sort of 2 ends of the continuum. The ideal thing is, you give pretty high certainty, but good autonomy.
226
00:44:28.410 --> 00:44:35.760
Dr. David Rock: So what that means is you're you're as a manager, you're you're telling people, really what you're expecting of them. But you're focusing on the outcomes.
227
00:44:35.760 --> 00:44:59.599
Dr. David Rock: not on exactly every step on how to get there. So you're like, this is what the quality looks like. Here's an example of another proposal. That is the quality we need. Actually, here's 3 examples. So you don't anchor on exactly the way to do one. Here's 3 really high quality proposals, the different kinds. That's the quality that we're looking for. But you can decide how you get there. Right? So it's high certainty and high autonomy, high certainty of the outcome high autonomy of the process. Now you can give really rich feedback
228
00:44:59.790 --> 00:45:13.048
Dr. David Rock: of how close to the outcome are you right? And and where? Where do you think the gaps are so we think that high certainty, high autonomy, dimension, is where you can now give the riches feedback, and that's that's a really important one.
229
00:45:13.350 --> 00:45:19.564
Dr. Emma Sarro: Awesome. We're getting a ton of great questions. I know we have to let our our special guest in soon. But
230
00:45:20.500 --> 00:45:28.520
Dr. Emma Sarro: Or one more question from Lisa. If you're asking for feedback in a culture that doesn't ask, how do you not come across as having low confidence in your work, how do you not.
231
00:45:28.520 --> 00:45:54.789
Dr. David Rock: Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. So so this, this habit of asking for the feedback. Actually, it sort of crosses over 2 really interesting domains. To Don's question, this is actually the the strongest power tool for creating a growth mindset culture. So when you ask for feedback, you're actually creating a growth mindset culture, especially as a manager. If you ask your team and really listen to what they're saying, you're you're really creating a trusting event. But it also crosses over psychological safety
232
00:45:54.790 --> 00:46:07.990
Dr. David Rock: that when you ask for feedback, you're actually creating safety for people to give you feedback and safety for them to ask you. So it's it's really powerful. It kind of achieves both things. Now, the thing with with this is, you don't want to say.
233
00:46:08.490 --> 00:46:35.090
Dr. David Rock: oh, I don't really have any idea what I'm doing as a manager. So you know, can you tell me how to do better? Right? That would be sort of fake humility. You wanna have what's called situational humility, which is like, Hey, I'm I'm you know, I I I'm I'm working as the manager right now on improving the way. I you know, delegate, for example, like you know, I know things are great, but I'm trying to improve how I delegate. Can you give me some feedback on how I'm delegating. And this is where the specific part of the model is helpful.
234
00:46:35.090 --> 00:46:40.313
Dr. David Rock: So it's this is called situational humility, and we teach it in our, in, in our
235
00:46:40.940 --> 00:46:43.490
Dr. David Rock: our whole strategy around psychological safety.
236
00:46:43.764 --> 00:47:11.870
Dr. David Rock: And so situational humidity is just basically saying, Hey, I really need your input, in this domain. It's not like, I'm not confident, overall. But in this domain I'm really trying to grow and learn. Can you help me? And it it's a very, very powerful thing to do that. By the way, we we've got a whole solution on psychological safety that we teach. We teach set the stage invite participation response hopefully. If you're interested in talking to someone about that, just put the word team in the chat and your company name, someone will follow up with you. Just put team in the chat and we'll we'll do a demo for you. Show you through the whole
237
00:47:11.870 --> 00:47:16.669
Dr. David Rock: psychological safety solution. And the same with grow. We have a growth mindset solution. Still, one of our biggest
238
00:47:16.820 --> 00:47:37.910
Dr. David Rock: out there. Millions of people are learning this. Put the word, grow in your company name if you're interested in in that. So so asking for feedback is the best performance management tool to focus on. It's the best tool for growing a growth mindset. And it creates a lot of psychological safety. So we think it's a really really important framework to to work on.
239
00:47:39.620 --> 00:47:49.970
Dr. Emma Sarro: And so I know we're bringing our our guest in soon. But if you were to say like, what are the 3 ways to ask for feedback. Well, what are those 3 key things? Take away with.
240
00:47:51.595 --> 00:47:57.769
Dr. David Rock: So I think it's it's it's kind of. I've sort of covered it. But it's it's like, ask specifically.
241
00:47:57.940 --> 00:48:25.379
Dr. David Rock: So. Don't you just say, can I have some feedback right? But can I have some feedback about how I'm delegating? Or can I have some feedback about how I run meetings, or can I have some feedback about my emails or the way I'm structuring everything or can I? You know. So so that's the first thing is, is ask specifically. Second is broadly, lots of people, 3 to 5, at least 3, you know, and third, one is often like, get into the habit of doing this weekly, so specifically, broadly, and often, and then really important to ask for 2 things, what am I doing? Well, that I should build on?
242
00:48:25.440 --> 00:48:29.829
Dr. David Rock: And what can I rethink? What am I doing? Well, that I should build on? And what what can I rethink?
243
00:48:31.437 --> 00:48:32.870
Dr. David Rock: Really, really important?
244
00:48:33.364 --> 00:48:45.799
Dr. David Rock: So that way things really work. So yeah, why don't we introduce our special guest? This is a surprise special guest, and as much of a surprise to us as it is to you, because this has been an incredible growth. Mindset journey for us.
245
00:48:46.103 --> 00:49:06.740
Dr. David Rock: Some of you've heard we've been building this solution called lead lead is a 6 month digital experience with all the critical foundations for being a better manager or leader at all levels. So the the brain based skills whether you're a first time manager or CEO for actually leading better. And it's it's a phenomenal solution. We have a demo every week on this.
246
00:49:06.994 --> 00:49:31.699
Dr. David Rock: And yeah, my, Tony's just put in the the link to lead. But in building lead we were like, Wow, it'd be really amazing if there was an AI that you could have a conversation with at any time like 24, 7. What if there was an AI that we sort of powered up with all our models and tools and research and webinars and podcasts. You know everything, we got huge huge amount of content, and we started this thinking about this about a year ago, and the technologies like really accelerated. And we're
247
00:49:31.700 --> 00:49:41.099
Dr. David Rock: actually able to build an AI that you can have a conversation with. And I'm going to show you it's we've given this this AI and name
248
00:49:41.450 --> 00:50:07.850
Dr. David Rock: and we're gonna all ask some questions of it. So so think of some questions you'd like to ask the world. Smartest leadership coach because that's what we have joining us right now. He, he or she or it, or they's name it tends to be a he, because we've called Niles, but you call whatever you like pronoun it seems to answer to all pronouns. Niles is a neuro, intelligent leadership enhancement system. So this is about being the best possible leader based on the brain
249
00:50:08.030 --> 00:50:17.520
Dr. David Rock: and this is, you can ask any questions you like. I just ask, what are the 3 ways? Ask for feedback? Well, and think of.
250
00:50:17.530 --> 00:50:28.839
Dr. David Rock: Think of a question that you might ask, not about managing yourself, managing your team, motivating people, organizing your team, your business itself, growing, your business, thinking about like anything to do with leadership or management
251
00:50:29.178 --> 00:50:31.950
Dr. David Rock: and here's what. And I'll say it'd be specific
252
00:50:33.116 --> 00:50:34.780
Dr. David Rock: and then the broad.
253
00:50:35.230 --> 00:50:53.030
Dr. David Rock: And he's talking about across learning and growth as well. So so let's give some. Let's give some Niles, some challenges. And, by the way, a really challenging question is great. We're trying to find the edges of Niles and challenge Niles. So I'll I'll throw another question while you're thinking. But let's get some questions for Niles in the chat could be about feedback.
254
00:50:53.656 --> 00:51:06.170
Dr. David Rock: We can ask some questions about feedback. But let's see what what comes up for folks. So imagine Niles is powered up with every bit of research. We've done all our models, tools, 15 different programs, everything. What would you like to ask Niles about feedback.
255
00:51:06.770 --> 00:51:07.280
Dr. Emma Sarro: It's getting.
256
00:51:07.280 --> 00:51:08.140
Dr. David Rock: Have, a.
257
00:51:08.140 --> 00:51:12.219
Dr. Emma Sarro: And you've even asked questions that are more outside of work as well. Haven't you.
258
00:51:12.220 --> 00:51:18.594
Dr. David Rock: Yeah, yeah, you'd ask about your kids also things that actually gives you a little disclaimer. But then, actually has often a really different
259
00:51:19.210 --> 00:51:20.840
Dr. Emma Sarro: Hmm! That's a good question.
260
00:51:21.520 --> 00:51:24.750
Dr. David Rock: I'm gonna just put one in while they come in. What does poor performance
261
00:51:25.020 --> 00:51:26.130
Dr. David Rock: look like?
262
00:51:27.240 --> 00:51:28.830
Dr. David Rock: I should spell it correctly.
263
00:51:30.400 --> 00:51:33.090
Dr. David Rock: Poor performance look like. Let's see what Nil says.
264
00:51:33.470 --> 00:51:35.280
Dr. Emma Sarro: And we're getting some great questions.
265
00:51:37.020 --> 00:51:41.000
Dr. David Rock: Why is empathy important to leadership? We'll try that one next.
266
00:51:41.140 --> 00:51:43.150
Dr. Emma Sarro: Cultures. It's great.
267
00:51:44.290 --> 00:51:46.420
Dr. David Rock: And so good questions.
268
00:51:46.980 --> 00:51:49.900
Dr. David Rock: We'll try this one just to give it. It takes about 20 s.
269
00:51:50.220 --> 00:51:54.269
Dr. David Rock: How do you influence a culture of feedback when the executives do. That's nice
270
00:51:58.280 --> 00:52:13.200
Dr. David Rock: consistent value to meet targets, lack of engagement or initiative, ineffective collaboration and communication, and it ties back to different models and in the versions shortly that were released, that actually, you'll be able to click on all these different words that are important and kind of digging in more.
271
00:52:13.637 --> 00:52:15.179
Dr. David Rock: Let's see if it's another one
272
00:52:16.160 --> 00:52:17.389
Dr. David Rock: didn't get it.
273
00:52:19.150 --> 00:52:21.950
Dr. David Rock: How to reduce the threat response when giving feedback.
274
00:52:22.820 --> 00:52:24.310
Dr. David Rock: Let's try that one.
275
00:52:24.400 --> 00:52:28.709
Dr. David Rock: but we'll try some hard ones. Why is empathy important to the leadership? We'll try that one next.
276
00:52:30.180 --> 00:52:59.379
Dr. David Rock: See what it says. So Niles. So we basically built Niles as a part of the lead solution. But we've we've had all these companies say to us, actually, we'd love to just have Niles. And people can click into the different ways and kind of study, you know, like, learn more as they wanna get in and so we're actually gonna do that. We? We're very adaptive. And we're we're starting to have conversations with organizations about that. So yeah, if you're interested in kind of discussing that
277
00:52:59.601 --> 00:53:03.829
Dr. David Rock: just put the word Niles in your company name in the chat someone will reach out. But let's have a look.
278
00:53:05.100 --> 00:53:11.619
Dr. David Rock: increase certainty by setting clear expectations that we go, provide, provide autonomy by involving them in the process.
279
00:53:12.310 --> 00:53:18.539
Dr. David Rock: enhanced relatedness or empathy and support. There we go, still got 3 important things, oops. Let's do a different one.
280
00:53:19.400 --> 00:53:25.659
Dr. David Rock: Yeah, yeah. Just put Niles in the chat. Maybe your company name as well. So we know quickly so how to sort of support you.
281
00:53:27.780 --> 00:53:34.130
Dr. David Rock: Hmm! That's interesting. When we grab this one. Humility is an important leadership trait. Let's see what now says. No keeps grabbing that
282
00:53:35.140 --> 00:53:37.619
Dr. David Rock: it's not cutting and pasting so easily from
283
00:53:38.520 --> 00:53:41.129
Dr. David Rock: from Zoom. But we'll fix that. There we go.
284
00:53:42.750 --> 00:53:44.916
Dr. David Rock: Some good questions coming in.
285
00:53:45.350 --> 00:53:45.970
Dr. Emma Sarro: Please.
286
00:53:52.690 --> 00:53:55.759
Dr. David Rock: Beautiful. Let's see, what else comes in.
287
00:53:55.800 --> 00:54:00.179
Dr. David Rock: How we describe the perfect, unplanned feedback moment. That's a clever one.
288
00:54:00.300 --> 00:54:02.399
Dr. David Rock: Let's try that one and see what happens.
289
00:54:04.410 --> 00:54:15.929
Dr. David Rock: There's some really great questions in here. I wish we had time to go through all of them. We've been testing it. And it's it's actually the heart of the question. The more context that it has in some ways, the better it can do.
290
00:54:16.370 --> 00:54:21.930
Dr. David Rock: Actually, I've got a fun one write me an email to so to someone
291
00:54:22.220 --> 00:54:23.750
Dr. David Rock: who used to
292
00:54:24.830 --> 00:54:26.719
Dr. David Rock: perform well
293
00:54:27.450 --> 00:54:29.340
Dr. David Rock: and recently.
294
00:54:30.112 --> 00:54:33.489
Dr. David Rock: has not been hitting their targets.
295
00:54:33.920 --> 00:54:38.890
Dr. David Rock: So this is where Niles kind of starts to excel. We'll see what it says about humility.
296
00:54:40.810 --> 00:54:41.750
Dr. David Rock: So
297
00:54:42.620 --> 00:54:57.120
Dr. David Rock: we're talking about how to help people understand that humility. So you want to model it. You want to incorporate it into leadership programs. So talking about that, you want to recognize and reward humility practices. There we go. There's some good answers. So now we're going to do something tricky. Write me an email.
298
00:54:59.569 --> 00:54:59.979
Dr. Emma Sarro: What?
299
00:54:59.980 --> 00:55:04.959
Dr. David Rock: That's a nice one from Nancy. My leadership style is to be extremely direct. How can I adapt and modify? That's a great one.
300
00:55:07.250 --> 00:55:08.960
Dr. David Rock: These are all great questions.
301
00:55:10.820 --> 00:55:11.310
Dr. Emma Sarro: Well, the.
302
00:55:11.310 --> 00:55:13.249
Dr. David Rock: Yeah, the idea with the
303
00:55:13.510 --> 00:55:14.260
Dr. David Rock: the
304
00:55:15.210 --> 00:55:25.009
Dr. David Rock: if you don't use a rank, your number for performance review from Sarah. That's how it's the best way. Yeah, all of these are fantastic that we want to. We want to do this here we go. Certainly. So it's actually quick at at answering emails.
305
00:55:26.870 --> 00:55:30.440
Dr. David Rock: So there's a little bit of status there. I want to acknowledge your contributions
306
00:55:34.620 --> 00:55:36.540
Dr. David Rock: giving them some autonomy.
307
00:55:36.850 --> 00:55:53.479
Dr. David Rock: So you're actually not having the conversation in text which is perfect. You never want to give feedback if it's not like like difficult feedback, if it's not verbal. So so it's setting up a conversation in a really nice way. That's well done now. So I'll give you a pat on the back. Let's see if we've got another one here.
308
00:55:55.260 --> 00:55:58.110
Dr. David Rock: Which one, do you? Wanna which one do you wanna grab.
309
00:55:59.290 --> 00:56:00.679
Dr. Emma Sarro: Oh, man, so many guys.
310
00:56:00.680 --> 00:56:07.060
Dr. David Rock: Yeah, it's Catholic. That's exactly right, Kathy. It pointed it, wrote an email to set up a time giving a little bit of context.
311
00:56:11.030 --> 00:56:17.580
Dr. David Rock: very good. Yeah. I know it's really surprising, all of us, in some powerful ways. See what other questions.
312
00:56:19.400 --> 00:56:22.939
Dr. Emma Sarro: Well. Asking about the humility from Kath is great question.
313
00:56:23.090 --> 00:56:32.429
Dr. David Rock: Yeah, I did that one earlier. Here we go how to show up a leader for your team. When your own engagement is lower. You're not filling your best. Let's see what I like giving us tough challenges.
314
00:56:39.380 --> 00:56:52.169
Dr. David Rock: Oh, nice one from Susan. Please compose me an elevator speech. So it actually, this is one of its strengths, is writing emails for you and composing speeches for you and developing like a presentation or developing a strategy. It absolutely cleans up
315
00:56:52.565 --> 00:57:07.899
Dr. David Rock: like it? Does it better than I would do on these things. And really, really thorough. Yeah, you want to put your own voice in it a bit. You want to tweak it a bit. You want to make sure it doesn't sound like an AI is written it. But conceptually and strategically, it's really amazing. So we'll see what now says about this. Here we go.
316
00:57:09.400 --> 00:57:16.550
Dr. David Rock: leverage transparency and vulnerability. There's the relatedness to mention by being transparent about their own challenges, but in a professional way.
317
00:57:16.600 --> 00:57:20.190
Dr. David Rock: sharing vulnerabilities to an appropriate degree, can humanize leaders.
318
00:57:20.697 --> 00:57:24.449
Dr. David Rock: Balance transparency with reassurance. That's important. So that's good
319
00:57:24.540 --> 00:57:26.620
Dr. David Rock: focus on strengths and delegation
320
00:57:27.720 --> 00:57:33.470
Dr. David Rock: leaning on the strengths of your team can be a practical strategy. That's really nice implement and maintain routine check. Ins.
321
00:57:34.450 --> 00:57:37.019
Dr. David Rock: Yeah, that's really good. We'll do one more
322
00:57:37.425 --> 00:57:53.870
Dr. David Rock: before we wrap up. I see the time. I know you all. Wanna spend the day doing this, don't you? There's a simple way of doing that. Put Niles put the word Niles in your company name in the chat. Someone will reach out, and we'll see if we can do a pilot with you. To get this in your hands and in the hands of, you know, a few 100 leaders we're ready to pilot. And it's it's working like
323
00:57:54.170 --> 00:57:56.429
Dr. David Rock: amazingly. Well, it's kind of spooky.
324
00:57:57.080 --> 00:57:58.569
Dr. David Rock: See what Niall says
325
00:57:59.260 --> 00:58:02.010
Dr. David Rock: about this one. And you know, powered up with all our
326
00:58:02.916 --> 00:58:14.249
Dr. David Rock: so it's it's a somewhat close system. So it has a little bit of input. But it's got a lot of our research. And and remember, our research is. you know all our conferences. Since 2,008
327
00:58:14.620 --> 00:58:37.049
Dr. David Rock: we've been running a huge international 2 or 3 day conference since then. And you know, journal with with 60 something papers and hundreds and hundreds of blogs and webinars and podcasts, 15, huge training programs about another 100 off the shelf. Sorry custom leadership programs. We built so sort of everything we've ever done in 24 years. Pretty much is in there 26 years. Now, I should say
328
00:58:37.050 --> 00:59:04.459
Dr. David Rock: so. It's there's a lot here we go. So you can. Actually, if you're ahead of Dei, you can ask like, how do I structure Dei, in this political environment. It'll actually give you a really good answer. If you're in, you know, Chro, like, how do I deal with you know, Chro issues. The other fun thing, I'll say, before we wrap is we. We're actually seeing that you could weave in your company's mission vision purpose values and all your Hr tools, so that people could actually be pointed to your own company's Hr. Tools.
329
00:59:05.650 --> 00:59:07.519
Dr. David Rock: There we go. We'll breathe that.
330
00:59:10.570 --> 00:59:11.430
Dr. Emma Sarro: No man.
331
00:59:11.680 --> 00:59:13.630
Dr. David Rock: That's pretty crazy, awesome.
332
00:59:16.110 --> 00:59:37.673
Dr. David Rock: pretty crazy, awesome. So anyway, that's a surprise guest. How long would it take now to produce a whole structured Mini course on this topic. Not very long. About 20 s. That's what's scary. Now. You might need a human then to deliver it. But in about 20 s it's gonna do that sometimes really fast. So so we're kind of disrupting ourselves with this. We don't know where the features going. But we're having our own growth mindset.
333
00:59:38.202 --> 01:00:01.939
Dr. David Rock: and yeah, we'd love any feedback that you're willing to share on this, you know. Throw in the chat we'll say on for a couple more minutes but we wanted to to today. Just bring a bring on a special guest of something that we're been really playing with is really, really cool. It's blowing my mind, and I've tested it with all sorts of people, and it's really rare that it doesn't have a profoundly helpful answer. So you know, technology is coming. Let's be the people to leverage it and use it.
334
01:00:02.385 --> 01:00:08.880
Dr. David Rock: And just yeah, thanks for the opportunity to share this great great session Emma, any closing thoughts before we wrap.
335
01:00:09.430 --> 01:00:13.430
Dr. Emma Sarro: No, this is great. I loved ending this way. We should have special guests more often.
336
01:00:13.659 --> 01:00:38.010
Dr. David Rock: Anyone quite as special as Niles yet, but we'll we'll we'll keep doing it. But we'll have to bring miles in more often. Thanks everyone for being here. Thanks for a great conversation, Emma. Thanks, Shelby. And yeah, just just throw the word Niles you come name with in the chat. If you wanna have a conversation about it we can. We can have you play with it and talk about it. And, you know, talk through different ways. We can pilot there. So thanks everyone, take care of yourselves. Look after each other, see you in the next few weeks. Bye, bye.
337
01:00:40.530 --> 01:01:03.949
Shelby Wilburn: Awesome. Thank you so much, Emma and David, for today's conversation. If you're still on just a few more things. Let us know how we can help you. We'll share our poll to connect with us and work together, and we are getting summit planning underway for 2024. We're extremely excited and looking forward to it. So we want to hear from you. We have a summit survey, and we can share that link in the chat for you to share your thoughts and feedback
338
01:01:03.950 --> 01:01:28.759
Shelby Wilburn: on what we should put together for this year. Our second lead cohort is gonna be kicking off on April eighteenth. So if you're interested in joining that next group, our team can also share that info. And we also have information on our website. It's been a wonderful journey so far, and we're looking forward to moving forward. Insider exchange. This is specifically for senior executives. So if you enjoy this show, we really think you'll love the insider program. It's an exclusive opportunity to have
339
01:01:28.760 --> 01:01:52.240
Shelby Wilburn: roundtable discussions with our internal leaders. So if you are interested in something like that, we will also share that link in the chat and then hosting an Ni event. So if you wanna partner with us to host, we are really looking forward to expanding with our community. If you're interested in your organization working with us, please let us know check out the link in the chat as well, and there will be more information
340
01:01:52.240 --> 01:02:15.090
Shelby Wilburn: on our follow up. And lastly, the. Podcast so if you enjoyed today's episode, you can hear it back and other episodes on our podcast your brain at work wherever you listen, and that is officially where we say farewell. So on, behind, on the behalf of our team behind the scenes. Thank you so much for being here every week we appreciate. You have a great weekend, and we will see you next week.