Struggling to create impactful L&D programs that measurably improve organizational effectiveness? Neuroscience holds the key. Join our free webinar and discover the FACT and AGES models — powerful frameworks for crafting training that fosters knowledge retention and drives results. • FACT (Fluency, Amount, Coherence, Timing): Learn how to structure content for optimal absorption and engagement. • AGES (Attention, Generation, Emotion, Spacing): Discover strategies to grab attention, boost knowledge application, and extend learning impact over time. This webinar equips you with the science-backed tools to design L&D programs that truly empower your workforce.
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Shelby Wilburn: Welcome back to another week of your brain at work. Live! I'm your host, Shelby Wilbur's. We're happy to have you back, and for newcomers. We're excited to have you here with us today. For the 1st time
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Shelby Wilburn: in this episode we'll dive into the fact and ages, models and unpacked science back tools to design impactful learning and development programs. Now, as I quickly share, some housekeeping notes, drop in the comments or chat box where you're joining in from today.
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Shelby Wilburn: we are recording today's session. So if you're interested in a replay, be on the lookout for an email later today, that email is going to include a survey for feedback as well as a number of resources that are aligned with today's conversation. We suggest putting your phone on. Do not disturb quitting out of your email and messaging apps. So you can get the most out of today's show. And it's also going to help with your audio and video quality, and we love interaction, so feel free to share your thoughts and comments in the chat with us.
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Shelby Wilburn: Now, to get this show underway, I'm going to introduce our speakers for today.
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Shelby Wilburn: our 1st partner.
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Shelby Wilburn: our 1st guest partners with large businesses to implement key initiatives for leadership, transformation, culture, change and inclusiveness over the past decade he has led teams that identify and overcome challenges to promote innovation at scale, consulting across many industries, including finance, technology, healthcare, biotech and pharmaceutical. He and his team help drive sustainable change while allowing smooth business processes.
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Shelby Wilburn: Please enjoy me and please join me in welcoming vice president of Client experience at the Neuro Leadership Institute drew Sumter. Great to have you here today, drew.
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Drew Sumter: Yeah, thanks so much, Shelby. Happy to be here. Welcome everyone.
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Shelby Wilburn: Inks
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Shelby Wilburn: our second guest, for today oversees Nli product and advisory functions. She has extensive experience in management and consulting across a diverse array of industries. She's the author of Nli's seminal research on organizational growth, mindset and brain-friendly leadership models.
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Shelby Wilburn: Her current specialty is partnering with executives on transformational initiatives specifically global leadership transformations and large-scale culture change. Please join me in welcoming the Vice President of product and advisory, Rachel Cardero. Thanks for being here today, Rachel.
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Rachel Cardero: Hi, Shelby! Hi! All! It's a big pleasure.
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Shelby Wilburn: And our moderator for today leads the research team at the Neuro Leadership Institute, where she focuses on translating cognitive and social neuroscience into actionable solutions for organizations as well as helps to communicate relevant research in an accessible manner for the public.
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Shelby Wilburn: Previously she was a professor at Dominican College and New York University, and a researcher at the Nathan Klein Institute. She holds a bachelor's degree from Brown University and a Phd. In neuroscience from the New York University a warm welcome to the Senior Director of Research at Nla. Dr. Emasaro. Thanks for being here today, Emma, as always, and I'm passing it over to you.
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Emma Sarro: Thanks, Shelby. Hello! I'm so excited to be here with you, too. I don't think we've ever done an episode, just the 3 of us. So it's gonna be fun. So for everyone that's here, it's going to be a bit of a shift from our recent episodes. Today, we're going to get pretty specific about the work we do with our partners, how we incorporate the science of learning and memory and habit formation, to help companies reach their objectives or solve any of the challenges that they're facing.
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Emma Sarro: We have our 2 most expert individuals who work closely. And this work with our partners, and they're going to give us a look inside into what we call our thinking partnerships. So here, what we're talking about is not just buying a single solution or product off the shelf. So much more than that, it's a way to directly address your company's challenge through what some think of as a journey through a few of our solutions that are designed specifically to the needs are of our partners.
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Emma Sarro: So we call these thinking partnerships because it really stems from both the collaboration or the collaborative journey that we take with our clients, but also because we integrate our understanding of neuroscience. So the ways to design experiences that result in the deepest learning and the strongest memories and the ways that will best manage our partners. Cognitive capacity. So for anyone who follows us often. This is where we're talking about our ages model and our fact models.
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Emma Sarro: Now we'll get into a bit more of the details about each of these models, and how they're used as lenses or or as guiding lights as we design these programs. But I just wanna dive right in. And I'm gonna pull Rachel in for a bit to kind of explain to us a bit of what these partnerships look like. But actually, really, what? What do you see our our partners facing right now? And how are we working with them?
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, it's such a great question. And Drew and I have been partners in crime for almost a decade at this point, doing this type of work us, but our teams together. And it's been interesting to see how our clients and our trusted partners are approaching this work now, and how that's evolved over the last decade plus right. I think if I could
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Rachel Cardero: say one thing about how folks are trying to either maximize their Lnd efforts really bring that custom touch to how they're helping people acquire new skills or see talent management differently is that they are
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Rachel Cardero: constantly struggling with the the demands of changing priorities employee burnout.
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Rachel Cardero: and a a sense of change, fatigue. And so, you know, we have a lot of folks come to us and say.
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Rachel Cardero: We know this is absolutely necessary. We need to make this change. We need to build these skills. We wanna adapt this process. And there's no bandwidth anywhere to do this work. And I know, you know, I'm on other like we did research on organizational behavior change and got lots of really great data. That is surprising, but not surprising, you know, like 70 set 70, I think percent of people saying that
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Rachel Cardero: their change efforts didn't achieve desired results.
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Rachel Cardero: But 65 of people saying that they didn't think that their organization was more effective after whatever the change was. And so
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Rachel Cardero: a lot of the way that we partner is meant to directly address some of those missteps, or some of those friction points. So no matter what we do, we are. I I'm always telling people at Nla. We're obsessed about habits. You know. What are the behaviors? We're gonna target. How are we gonna actually help people shift
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Rachel Cardero: specific behaviors. Not just understand which we want them to do. Not just, you know, say the right things. But really this true alignment of what is important? What are those small behaviors? And then what are the environmental factors? We can help you with the systems, the processes, the talent management steps that create this whole ecosystem for change. And so our team spend a lot of time helping people
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Rachel Cardero: really get clear on their goals. And we do that with a lot of design, thinking principles, a lot of brain based principles around co-creation where we're meeting week to week. We're live editing and documents. We're getting the best from our clients, helping them define their goals and then getting really like laser focused on those behaviors so that they can become sustainable, sustainably embedded in the organization.
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Rachel Cardero: And it's a it's a fun journey. One of the things I think we're pretty proud of is everybody walks away learning a little bit of science as they partner with us.
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Rachel Cardero: and that's always a dream.
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Emma Sarro: No, that's great. And I love that we. We start with the science right away. And we even bring that into like, how we actually hold each of the meetings and and what we bring to each of the meetings, we explain the science as we're talking about, why we're in adding in each of the steps.
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Emma Sarro: so even as you're as you're describing this, and and as we were kind of planning this session a bit, we were thinking about talking about the a typical, or maybe a customized pathway. But is there even such a thing as a typical pathway, right? And like? What if, for instance, we have a partner come to us and say they, they want to just improve the inclusive behaviors of their leaders. I mean, is it the same for every single
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Emma Sarro: client or
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Emma Sarro: Now, what would you? What would you say to that?
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah.
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Rachel Cardero: And like for us at Nli, when we're talking about a learning pathway, you know, we often get a question from our clients, and our partners? Should we should we build a program and go really deep on a certain set of skills? And you know, should we put people in a in a room for 2 weeks, and they're just, you know, going through, you know, building their encyclopedic knowledge on this topic.
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Rachel Cardero: And that's like for a lot of us. It's just not a fit for how we're supposed to manage our priorities, for how we're asked to be delivering in our organizations. And so our learning pathways are an attempt to help people balance the pressures of work, the demands of work with also their learning and development needs. And so with a learning pathway. What Nli does is that we help you identify those critical skills or behaviors.
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Rachel Cardero: We help you string them together in a coherent experience that can even be micro learning right? It can be a tiny little 5 min a week. Learning burst or a learning snack.
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Rachel Cardero: But because we use the science of learning and memory and linguistics, neuro linguistics. Everything's woven in there. We can help people really string together those skills in a really meaningful way.
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Rachel Cardero: And so when we're thinking about pathways, I don't know if there's just a single pathway. I do think that there are some some typical features of a pathway. And I'm curious also about what Drew's other take. Drew and his team have trained millions of of learners through our work, especially our our big scalable work, but I think like it's always great messaging.
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Rachel Cardero: That is a great feature of a good pathway, and I would say, probably starting with the skill that creates the most openness for people, or that really will set them up for success as they go through that journey of either multiple skills or multiple learning solutions
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Rachel Cardero: and drew anything you'd add to to what I'm mentioning.
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Drew Sumter: At absolutely. And thank you, Rachel. I I love hearing about the custom work. I like taking part in the custom work and really building the right proper approach for all of our clients. Here, Nli.
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Drew Sumter: one of the things. And I'm I'm gonna take this just in a different direction before coming back to the pathway. But one of the things you mentioned is change, fatigue, and I'm I'm just curious. We have 185 participants. How many of you have been experiencing change, fatigue? Drop in the chat? Because it's real. I speak with clients every single week who talk about change fatigue and what we can do to really combat that
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Drew Sumter: and and basically analyze approach is, is we look at successful organizational change around deeply rooted change management. And that's done through understanding the neuroscience number one, right? But human psychology of how people respond to change. And when we're looking at effective change management, we must always consider the brain's natural resistance to change. Because it's due to perceived threats.
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Drew Sumter: The change poses due to the uncertainty and the unpredictability of the events that can come, and this consistently blends into any sort of training or learning initiative. Right? Our brains are wired to always prefer stability as well as predictability.
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Drew Sumter: These conditions require much less cognitive effort, and they're perceived as safe, right? So when change occurs it really disrupts our brains, expected patterns, our expected routines our amygdala, which is right here right above our ears is a region associated with processing threat
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Drew Sumter: and it processes fear. So the activation of of the threat really triggers this response which is known as fight, flight or freeze right? And this leads to increased stress, anxiety and resistance. And we've evolved as human beings where this has been natural to us. And it's a way we've survived. But this blends into the workplace altogether. And when we think about
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Drew Sumter: how to navigate this, when we partner with our clients we wanna emphasize the importance of framing change in a way that minimizes threat and maximizes the feelings of reward. Many of you might be familiar with the scarf model which is one of our our core models here. Threat and reward.
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Drew Sumter: But we really wanna help organizations leverage our science and programs to change for the better over time and much of that through the pathway approach. Really involves clear communications around the reasons for change. How these things are implemented. The the most importantly, the benefits. What are what are people gonna get out of this? And we wanna do our best to reduce uncertainty as well as increase buy in
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Drew Sumter: and and we're seeing in a lot of instances this, this change management, this change fatigue
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Drew Sumter: ever since Covid, a lot of things have been thrown on us A lot of things have been put forward in terms of learning virtually, and new ways to do this. And hey, look how easy it is to do this. Virtually we don't need everyone in a room. So let's just give more and more and more right. So when we're working with our clients. We wanna be very succinct. And we wanna make sure that we're very careful on how we roll these
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Drew Sumter: types of initiatives out
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Drew Sumter: going back and and sorry to derail us there and go off kind of on a a tangent but back to what Rachel was referring to in in terms of a a typical pathway.
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Drew Sumter: normally, what we aim for is a very structured multi phase. Approach that equips leaders to be more effective the pathways generally consist of key stages similar to what Rachel was referring to.
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Drew Sumter: We look at assessment and diagnosis right? Most importantly, this is all done at the upfront. Let's take into account current organizational culture. Let's look at existing leadership practices, diversity metrics employee engagement scores. Right? So many times our clients come to us.
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Drew Sumter: They might share surveys or focus group results, executive interviews, whatever it might be to really help us understand existing attitudes, behaviors as well structures, and then based on the assessment. And what we see here, we then can help support and diagnose key areas where changes are needed to maybe enhance inclusivity to develop or optimize leadership effectiveness and to really build out strong organizational culture. So
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Drew Sumter: we assess, then we strategize, we develop, we plan. We set objectives and this is one of the main things that when we're looking at a pathway approach, we're looking multi faceted down the line. Not always just we're gonna solve an issue in 2 days. Instead, this is going to be like, let's look at what this can look like over months. Let's look at what this can look like over years, right? And and we really want to use the insights from the assessment
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Drew Sumter: to set clear and very measurable objectives for what we're looking to achieve.
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Drew Sumter: From there. It's developing strategies that outline the initiative, the programs defining the scope of recommended leadership, development modules or any changes to policy. And then we land on where we really wanna build this out in terms of tailored
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Drew Sumter: and and programmatic build, right? So if you look at something like we have a a client who wants to develop a leadership program that can enhance decision making boost emotional intelligence and provide core techniques and core skills to lead remote and diverse teams effectively.
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Drew Sumter: What we would do is then we would build out and we'd look at analyze, core content, core IP and and put together a program that can best support that. So in this case, maybe it's looking at something like, decide in which we can learn and
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Drew Sumter: discuss and normalize unconscious bias and then build that into the next part of the pathway, which is inclusion which is developing smarter, more inclusive more effective teams. So using the decision making element to promote psychological safety, to understand bias and create a coherent whole in terms of how we want to interact with each other.
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Drew Sumter: And then from there, it's it's building out a case cadence of implementation and and through that implementation. Then you're looking at start dates. You're looking at end dates you're looking at consistent evaluation, continuous improvement feedback loops sometimes priority shift.
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Drew Sumter: Right? So we wanna make sure that we're agile. We're flexible. And the way that we roll these out, and the way that we position in the way we stack these up against competing priorities and whatnot and then we sustain right? So one of the most important core parts about the pathway. Learning is the sustainment of the habits that Rachel alluded to previously habits over time, the sustainment, and how they all work together with
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Drew Sumter: energy to make sure that when you come out through the end of a pathway of maybe it's the side program and the include program there. There's consistent coherent, and everything builds amongst each other and builds on top of it so that the participants are gaining value, and the organization's priorities are being met
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Drew Sumter: and and we typically see that this type of approach not only can help build a stronger leadership culture. But if we're agile we're flexible enough. It can also kind of evolve to meet the needs of a consistently changing and flexible workforce.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah. And what I love about what you're saying
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Rachel Cardero: is.
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Rachel Cardero: and I think we do this very intentionally at an Alli. So anytime that we are helping an organization roll out learning anytime that we're helping you put together a learning pathway to really maximize behavior change or enable or accelerate your transformation. We're looking at a lot of science in the learning itself.
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Rachel Cardero: you know, how do people need to learn? How can they really remember this? How can they apply these skills, habits, and behaviors?
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Rachel Cardero: And then we're also looking at what the container, the, the the mechanism of bringing it to the organization also, with kind of equal attention to how do people learn? How do people understand change?
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Rachel Cardero: And I think it is the the balance of those 2 things, because we get a lot of folks asking us.
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Rachel Cardero: you know, what's the what's the threshold for that like? What's the how? How can I do this? What's the silver bullet. What's the way everybody else does this so that I can get the same results.
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Rachel Cardero: And you actually have to do both of those things. And so you know, a lot of our gold standard solutions where that's been tried and and like, it's true and tested, that's figured out. And you can deploy really quickly. But we're always taking that careful effort to figure out, what do people need? How can they remember more? And I see
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Rachel Cardero: your team's getting shout outs from some folks in the chat which I love to see like if you've had a great experience with us, we wanna hear it and also some folks loving some of those gold standard solutions as well beside connect, grow that really help enable behavior. Change?
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Rachel Cardero: But I saw a question from Ann about. You know, there's often multiple change efforts, you know. How do you deal with that? What type of research have you seen? And I think a lot of it comes down to what Drew was mentioning about that that mechanism for delivering the learning or the learning pathways.
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Rachel Cardero: You know, if you are not taking into account how people process information, how they stay, motivated the mental shortcuts they take.
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Rachel Cardero: Then they all are just separate things, right? It's like a shopping cart filled with just a random assortment of items, but just a little bit of care, some coherence across your learning, or like clear messaging around. Why can help bring a lot of sense to to what people are trying to do.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, I'm hearing a, I'm hearing a lot of references back to things like our models, like fact and ages. We think about them throughout the whole process. So, thinking about the container you're putting everything in is everything that you're working on, whether it's all, all of our solutions as well as everything that they already have in their organization. The language they use all of their systems and processes. Is there coherence across all of these?
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Emma Sarro: And so that's some of the data that we take in is, you know, we want to make sure the language makes sense, and it's easy. It's fluent with everything that they're already taking in. So they don't have to use any extra cognitive capacity to try to understand. It is the language fluent is the is there coherence across the systems and what we're introducing into the organization. So that that's at the front end. And it's also
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Emma Sarro: throughout the whole process. And so that helps to reduce that that change threat that we're that we're thinking about. And so fact comes in throughout the whole process. And then the ages model comes in. As we're designing. So what is the experience like?
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Emma Sarro: So are we, are we asking them to? You know, only use their limited amount of attention as they're as they're going through some of our programs. And does that change depending on the the employee that we're actually working with. So do you see? Often with large organizations depending on? You know what set of employees are seeing this change, that you have to change
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Emma Sarro: the program a bit. So are you using micro learnings? Or are you using, you know, sessions live sessions depending on whether you're working with middle managers? Or, you know, frontline employees. And how does that? How do you design that to make sure you're getting the same information across and the same language across.
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Rachel Cardero: yeah, there's a big question that I think comes up a big decision point whenever we're doing this work where we have to balance the
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Rachel Cardero: amount of learning, the quantity of learning, the density of information that's in a program with its overall efficacy, and that that sounds pretty straightforward, like, yes, we wanted like we want it to be. We have. We want the outcomes. We wanted to do what we wanted to do. We want to see the behavior change.
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Rachel Cardero: But it's it is hard sometimes as you're planning your Lnd efforts a training sprint to learning pathway to say, I'm actually gonna focus on less. Here.
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Rachel Cardero: I'm gonna focus on a lot less. And I'm gonna make sure that we're just honing in on the things that we really wanna see
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Rachel Cardero: and so, as you're thinking about that, there, you could do that from a content perspective. But I think, as you're pointing out, I'm a like modality, wise. Same thing. Right? We're really focusing on. Okay, if I need somebody to learn this, maybe it is a 5 min video a week.
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Rachel Cardero: And what they actually need is more social context for how to implement this skill. And so let's do a big social campaign with lighter learning and more of those social learning elements in order to balance things out. Or
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Rachel Cardero: you know what given where people are, we want to be highly asynchronous with capstone learning events.
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Rachel Cardero: And you know, for us, we use our habit activation platform and all of our beautiful digital learning experiences. I I think there's like a real effort to weigh the pros and the cons and not get stuck in what we think is right, but actually figure out what's gonna be
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Rachel Cardero: easiest and really meet people where they are given their cognitive capacity limits change, fatigue that they're experiencing
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Rachel Cardero: and what they understand to be kind of true and right in the organization.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah. So what you're saying is, one size doesn't fit all within organization and across organizations.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah.
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Emma Sarro: Right? So we have multiple modalities. And I don't know. Drew from your experience what what are you seeing in organizations now, what kinds of modalities that we work in are, you know, most popular people are excited by get the greatest change
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Emma Sarro: buying.
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Drew Sumter: So it's it's a good question. I think
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Drew Sumter: Rachel used the the term. Was it magic bullet or silver bullet?
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Rachel Cardero: Silver bullet. I think.
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Drew Sumter: Silver silver bullet. Yeah. So so there's never really any true silver bullet to to any of this, right? Like I have found for doing this for the past 10 years, that every organization is different, right? Every organization is going to have different needs. We need to meet those needs. And we need to meet the needs of the participants and and find them where they're at. Right? So given the the primary shift to to online, you know we have, we have digital
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Drew Sumter: programs. So the benefits of that is a lot of these can be self paced. So participants can learn. When it makes most sense for them. It's easier to fit into their busy schedule right? As opposed to sending someone out for 3 h or flying them around the country to to send a room with their colleagues. Right? So
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Drew Sumter: we can now look at opportunities where this is all digital. There's interactive content engaging videos are much more common engagement tools like quizzes AI generated scenarios like we are starting to see AI disrupt everything. In which case there's chat bots. There's coach bots. You can interact with a machine the way we used to interact with humans, which is a great just in time tool for the today's busy manager who might need tips or
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Drew Sumter: direction on having a difficult conversation right
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Drew Sumter: in terms with the the digital there's also forums where there's community interaction peer to peer networks to enhance that social learning in terms of the the habit activation platforms we're seeing, because this is really due to drive engagement one of the potential hurdles, though with the digital. And and this is is different across multiple industries. But tech can present a hurdle
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Drew Sumter: and self paced, can present a hurdle as well just given our priorities, and, and, truth be told, the the self discipline
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Drew Sumter: of some of the participants, right? And this goes back to setting the initiative up for success. Right? You need to create the strong with them in order. That's what's in it for me. In order to get people in there and interacting with the digital content on their own, because there's little oversight. Now, conversely, we also have live programs. Now, this is tried and true. We've had live programs for decades
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Drew Sumter: this in in analyze world, right? We're looking at an an other world which I'm sure every one of these 100 plus audience members has probably been in at 1 point or the other. But we're looking at real time interaction
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Drew Sumter: in which a facilitator can get immediate engagement with the between the instructors, the peers and really help understand, and embed new habits through real time exercises with each other. So
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Drew Sumter: live programs doesn't necessarily need to be sitting in a room. It can now be done virtually it could be done over. Zoom, it could be done very similar to what we're doing right here, right there's a lot of flexibility when you're looking at doing this through zoom in terms of a virtual live program modality.
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Drew Sumter: There's the convenience of online access and participants can join globally from anywhere possible. So it it really leads to a more inclusive
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Drew Sumter: learning situation, right? Because you can bring in multiple people from all over the place, and everyone can experience the same exact thing. But again, the downsides you're gonna have in terms of live programs is scheduling conflicts. Sometimes there's tech dependencies. Maybe the interconnection Internet connections. Bad you might be. Traveling might be dialing in from an airport so there could be disruptions there.
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Drew Sumter: And there's always distractions that can impact the level of engagement. My personal favorite, and normally, what we'd recommend given given time given, budget is some sort of blended learning pathway in which you've got the best of both worlds. So you've got the the self paced component with live online or in person sessions to give a more comprehensive
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Drew Sumter: type of learning experience. So this helps with the reinforcement of learning. So people can get small bite size chunks just in time from their laptop and then discuss them in a group with maybe a facilitator or a group of like minded colleagues here. And we've actually seen more impact in the habit formation when you have that opportunity.
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Drew Sumter: But when it comes down to, if you're a practitioner and you're one of the program. Managers, I mean, the levels of coordination are much more complex when you're looking at this blended style. But we have seen very good uptick and and very good engagement levels. When we do a bit of both, there.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah.
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Rachel Cardero: And the way that we help ourselves at an Alli. So just to pull back the curtain a little bit for you all.
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Rachel Cardero: you know, change, fatigue and decision, fatigue, the same thing that our learners suffer from. We do as well the ones that are planning the learning and our pathways and these big training initiatives
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Rachel Cardero: for Nli. What we've done is as Drew mentioned, all those beautiful modalities are ways of delivering learning.
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Rachel Cardero: We have again, these gold standard combinations of different learning assets or events at that sit in our toolbox, so to speak, and those are our preferred modalities. And so we know, if you needed to be a little more social, we've already done the work ahead of time to think about what are those gold standard modalities
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Rachel Cardero: and what you need for your specific learner, audience or segment, that we got a great question from Daisy around like, how can we? What? What are the best intake questions. For participants or for learners. How can we best learn from them?
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Rachel Cardero: For us a lot of it has to do with keeping the brain in mind. And so my favorite construct, at least, is to ask about.
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Rachel Cardero: how do people
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Rachel Cardero: take in information their cognitive capacity? So are they overwhelmed? Are they bombarded with tons of new information? Will they understand it?
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Rachel Cardero: Is there an easy way to link it to their current priorities? There's I also like to look at motivation. So how? How easily will they connect with the material or the change that you're trying to get them engaged with
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Rachel Cardero: and then we also look at their predisposition for certain cognitive biases or mental shortcuts. Are these folks that might be risk averse? Are these folks that just wanna do what's tried and true, or or for them, right? So it might not be the best way. But the my gut tells me, you know we should do this this way, because this is what I've experienced in the past.
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Rachel Cardero: and so that mix of looking at somebody's cognitive capacity, their motivation and their bias. You can actually see.
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Rachel Cardero: Okay, they need. They're overwhelmed. They need light information. They're not motivated enough. Right? So let's make it more social. And their predisposition is to be more risk, averse that might be their like bias profile if you will. And so let's make sure our messaging and the coherence really helps answer those questions around risk aversion. And so in in both ways that can be, those can be your intake questions. You can get a sense of their experience and their needs as learners.
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Rachel Cardero: And then, as we do at an Alli, you know, we have our toolbox of these gold standard modalities, and how we you know, package learning. And so we can easily say, Well, you need you need this one. And now let's take that modality or that approach to learning.
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Rachel Cardero: Let's customize it. Maybe you want a little more of this. Maybe you want a little less of this and then we apply that content. Next.
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Drew Sumter: Thanks, Rachel, and I just wanna hop in Brenda. Brenda Harrington asked. A really good question. How important is the use of e-learning platforms for engagement. So
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Drew Sumter: it might be a trick question. But I'm I'm gonna take a quick crack at this because e-learning is phenomenal. If anyone's been through e-learning. It's a great way to get synthesized information, synthesized techniques, synthesized skills over to someone in a really relatively quickly digital format right?
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Drew Sumter: what makes it really strong. And what we found is to Rachel's point that social element, right? So it it's not critical. E-learning platform is not critical to behavior change or to skill building it. It absolutely is not. It's a. It's a method to get there right in terms of a
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Drew Sumter: digital modality. But what makes it really, really strong is when you build in that social accountability that social interaction, and what we hear at Nli have found very helpful is to. If we're going through an e-learning module to have someone from Nli be the cohort coach right for lack of a better term there in which we can actually get in there, engage the learners to understand the insights, to have them elaborate.
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Drew Sumter: to understand the practicality of where people might be using the concepts and kind of build on that sometimes. Participants ask about the science, and and we're there to help them. Right? So
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Drew Sumter: we're we're starting to see that more, and that's 1 of the things AI might take away right? Because you can just ask about this. And you're now kind of socializing with a bot. But one of the things that we found is you have an actual human in there, engaging with the learners in the platform to kind of help them
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Drew Sumter: embed the knowledge embed the skills that they're learning.
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Drew Sumter: but absolutely e-learning. It's it's not mission critical. There's other great ways which I mentioned previously to to deliver.
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Emma Sarro: And I'll just jump in there a bit and say a little bit of recent research around AI and using AI, and some of. You may have seen this, and maybe someone can find this article. I don't have it on hand, but the use of AI tools often in the workplace can can lead to a feeling of loneliness.
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Emma Sarro: So I would say, what we've learned about social learning in the latest research and social learning, and we've implemented in some of our our recent ways of learning. Our habit activation platform is the regular engagement with individuals which is kind of like an amped up version of like your typical e-learning platform, is the regular engagement with your your learners and your instructors at the same time as you're learning
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Emma Sarro: in the flow of work. But so it's it's not just that you're interacting with an AI bot which could give you answers absolutely, and might even have like a personalized you know, feel to it. But you're also
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Emma Sarro: You're also learning from each other, and that we know enhances the overall experience. So you're able to jump in when you want, which taps into the feeling of autonomy you're able to have the sense of relatedness with your with your cohort, you and you're you're engaging all of those things, tapping into the ages model as well. So all of those things are incorporated, and and I think that
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Emma Sarro: you get those, with all of our other ways of learning as well with the live sessions. But you're interacting with your with your class and with your instructor and and so all of those things we kind of make sure to incorporate in different amounts and in ways that are are easy for anyone that we're working with to to do so. If you have 5 min, then you have 5 min, or maybe you can only log in at night. So
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Emma Sarro: we make sure to design that, depending on who we're actually trying to trying to get the information across to
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Emma Sarro: well, I guess I'd wanna just like switch gears just a little bit and bring it back to Drew for kind of our like, the proof of principle, right? So we don't just do the work necessarily, but we actually measure how well how well the work is done. So our impact, we like to call it so. Can you just talk a little bit about like what we do? This is kind of at the back end of all of our work.
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Drew Sumter: Ye? Yeah, exactly. So this is what we term is the the roi, right? So just understanding. This is the the crux of everything we do here. Nli revolves around behavior change
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Drew Sumter: so so not just the upfront work, not just the upfront, you know, e-learning or facilitate events. This is understanding what people are doing differently. So the 1st and foremost thing, and at the beginning, very beginning of the implementation phase, when we meet with our clients for the 1st time. We always start with their business objectives. Right? What are we looking to do differently? And what are we looking to achieve through
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Drew Sumter: the grow program or the connect program, or a custom program. Right? So we really, really wanna understand what's driving this program and how it's gonna fit in, and then from there we look to understand the participant experience. Once they go through this right, and we do this through surveying
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Drew Sumter: In terms of the surveying. And we call this the behavior change assessment. We capture program Nps which is net promoter scores and industry standard. We don't over index on that. But we do capture that because we wanna really understand how valuable
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Drew Sumter: participants think the the program is. But what we really wanna understand, is the behavior change element. So we measure preparedness. So whether or not the the concepts or the skills from the program are becoming easier and natural and automatic for them to use in their day to day.
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Drew Sumter: We look at retention, whether or not participants retained and can recall the the domains of the scarf model or the seeds model or just the very basic habits of the program. We look at frequency, which is super important we wanna know
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Drew Sumter: is, are the new behaviors? Or are the new skills being used? Where are they being used? Is this where we want people to be using it right? So when you bucket all these things together really shows us what the the crux of it all, which is the behavior change? Are people doing differently? And is this is this pathway? Or is this program? Or is this learning event creating
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Drew Sumter: positive behavior change? Are we seeing the habit formation. For example, at a recent client very recently, they just went through. Decide, feel like I'm plugging. Decide a lot on this the session today, but one of their main goals was for participants to understand bias and to call it out real time in meetings with their colleagues. So what we did was we measured the participants of the program
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Drew Sumter: who self reported about 3 weeks post session end. It gives them an opportunity to kind of integrate the the techniques and and the the labeling of unconscious bias into their day to day as a leader. So we give them a a bit time. Once the learning ends to go ahead and apply that. And 75% reported that they called out bias in the team meeting
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Drew Sumter: over one to 3 times over the past week.
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Drew Sumter: Now, what they didn't know was, we were also surveying their direct reports as well.
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Drew Sumter: And the direct reports of those participants. Only 47% of them reported that their managers actually called out the bias when they heard that happened in the meeting. So you're looking at a 30% swing a lot of times. We inform the participants. It's best practice to inform the participants like, Hey, we're gonna measure your direct reports, too. So make sure you're taking this very, very seriously. Right? It's
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Drew Sumter: called positive status pressure. But what we ended up doing was we. We did find out that there was a pretty pretty big discrepancy, and what people are self reporting as well as what their direct reports are are telling them is happening in one, on ones or in team meetings.
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Drew Sumter: But these are the types of things we we identify. We look at, we see the behavior change. And then we try to bring that 30% up. And we worked very hard on on, get more of an informational campaign back out to the managers who went through the program. We worked at stronger sustainment we looked at in person or, or sorry live facilitate sessions to kind of help embed the habits, and a little bit more so that we can eventually see those numbers tick up
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Drew Sumter: but that that's just one of the ways in which we measure. There's multiple ways in which we can do that that I could. We could probably build another your brain at work across this. But it's it's a very, very fun concept. And it really shows us measurable results that we can then tie back to the business objectives. And, you know.
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Drew Sumter: show and report out the Roi, for for our clients.
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Rachel Cardero: I am. We're getting some great questions. So some of the questions that have come through to us have been like, is there a way, we can learn more about this, about our impact measurement and the science of learning. We do often partner with Hr teams, Lnd teams, all types of teams to give them research briefings on the science of learning, and that includes a component around measurement where you all can pick our brains or pick
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Rachel Cardero: the brain of a wonderful scientist on our team and a behavior change expert and so if any of you are interested in learning more about those learning briefings or the science of measurement, and having somebody from our team talk to you. Just put ages in the chat.
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Rachel Cardero: And somebody will reach out to you and get you the information you need.
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Emma Sarro: Amazing. Yeah. And you know, I guess you know we have about 10 min left. I'd love to get to one thing that I think everyone wants to know. So we we talked about what the experience is like and how we measure it. But if we were looking, or if anyone was looking to do this on their own. What would be the like? The common misconceptions you see in others as you're talking to them? Oh, we've tried this and this.
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Emma Sarro: and we did it this way. What would it kind of like ping in your brain is? Oh, well, this was this is what you did wrong, or you had this misconception.
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Rachel Cardero: there are a couple that come to mind for me.
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Rachel Cardero: I think so. I think one misconception that. Maybe I'll start with, this is my favorite one. This is my personal favorite. This is the one that I think I go to 1st all the time. But there is this misconception, that
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Rachel Cardero: coherence of messaging or really clear messaging around your your training initiative around your Lnd efforts are a
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Rachel Cardero: I think it only needs to be okay. And that the coherence of like tying it to other organizational priorities, business priorities. Your strategy, like it, can be done in a little line or a sentence somewhere hidden somewhere in an email. And that's good enough. And one of the things that I would advise to every single one of you. Is that
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Rachel Cardero: actual coherence between
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Rachel Cardero: what your organizational priorities are
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Rachel Cardero: and the why or the intended outcomes of your training or your Lnd efforts. If you position that correctly, people can actually feel lighter, they can remember more. They can take in more information if you focus on coherence.
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Rachel Cardero: And that's something we do a lot of when we do our learning audits, or when we do our kind of consultative work with clients looking at all of their learning curriculum and how they're rolling things out. And that's another thing. If you want more information on on the learning audits, you can put learning audit in the chat, and somebody will reach out to you on how we partner with folks to do kind of full kind of end to end assessment of what your Lnd efforts are. Your curriculum. It covers a whole bunch of things.
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Rachel Cardero: but essentially like what I tell folks is, you know, if, when you design things coherently, there is this umbrella concept that all of these different actions, initiatives, activities get nestled under.
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Rachel Cardero: And we see this as best practice with some of the most innovative organizations in the world. Microsoft, an example. Their big concept was, we wanna become a company of learn it all? Not know it all right. They really wanted that growth mindset to be the 1st thing they did.
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Rachel Cardero: And so for them, coherence look like aligning everything in some way or another to becoming an organization of learn it all. So whether it was a performance management transformation, whether it was.
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Rachel Cardero: you know, compliance, based training, or some type of regulatory training, whether it was improving ways of working on teams. That is what coherence looks like. It is the Co. The harmony of ideas where ideas build upon each other and strengthen each other instead of
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Rachel Cardero: yeah, well, we have this, and we have that. And we have this, and we have that. And we have this. And yeah, they're kind of tied together. But really like coherence. That umbrella concept that you nestle things under helps. People remember more. Make more sense of things.
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Rachel Cardero: And it just will improve everything overall. So you can see I'm passionate about it, Drew. I wonder what your misconception is.
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Drew Sumter: Rachel, how many, how many times have we worked with clients where they they just wanna do everything under the sun all at once and all together. Right? So that's kind of where this coherence thing is playing. And and this is one of the biggest things for for all of you. Here one of the the biggest mistakes that that we see our clients try to make. We? We advise them against doing this, of course. But is
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Drew Sumter: is not being essential and being exhaustive. Right? So what we wanna do is not focus on everything. All at once we wanna focus solely on the most critical and relevant elements versus covering every single detail so easily recallable information. That's super clear, very high amounts.
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Drew Sumter: We wanna limit the amount of time we spend on a concepts. Because we we just want limited amounts of focus. Our brains can only hold so much information so we wanna make sure that the key elements are digestible and most importantly actionable, as I said
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Drew Sumter: and just make sure that anything else that gets funneled in, or that's built to kind of match ties directly back and is super relevant to the objective or the goal that your hand or that you have at hand. Right? Our core focus is on
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Drew Sumter: rapidly disseminating small, manageable, manageable pieces of information in in which case an analyze world. Those are new habits. And this is where we consistently see behavior change at scale. So just focus on the essential, not the exhaustive
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Drew Sumter: one. Size fits all we discussed previously. There is no magic bullet, right? So in the terms and kind of recalling back to the modalities like, if you're looking at scalable digital learning. Right? Hey? This might work very well for an office environment which might be
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Drew Sumter: 45% of the organization. But this sometimes does not play on a manufacturing floor. That might be an additional 35% of the participants where participants may or may not have access to Pcs or top ipads. Right? So you really want to make sure that you're evaluating and taking every single learner into mind when you're building out your learning initiative.
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Drew Sumter: And then I guess. Finally.
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Drew Sumter: Well, I I spoke about this a few years ago at the Analyze summit which is coming up in October. If you you want information drop Summit into the chat there. But one of the things we talked about was a top down approach in which maybe the executive team would just funnel down a directive
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Drew Sumter: for the rest of the organization to follow whether that's learning or something else. Right? So in general, top down can be very good if you're working with a very, very small group, or maybe you have a very strong leader. Led culture. We've seen a lot of these, and that's great. And and we have seen some success right? But learning initiatives do not have to be top down.
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Drew Sumter: Because it limits the autonomy of participants can lead to decreased motivation. It can lead to low engagement. Because individuals
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Drew Sumter: field, they have very, very little control over their own development. Right? So it kind of gets into the autonomy and and scarf domain that we discussed previously. I think we've all had a negative reaction to probably someone more senior than us telling us what to do as opposed to, maybe asking for some input at the front end. So
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Drew Sumter: what really really works instead is, don't mandate directly from the top. We can use stakeholders to be involved and to kind of help push the initiative along but we've actually seen great success in training managers and equipping them to go out and train their teams in the way that works best for them. Right? So it's like.
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Drew Sumter: here's what we wanna accomplish. ABC. Within the next 6 months. Managers, here's some tools, you know. Use your own autonomy and figure out the best way to help support your teams. Through this transition through this learning initiative. Right? So when when we have top leaders, maybe participating in and understanding the learning at hand. They can then expand it out to learners at every single level. It creates an everyone to everyone type dynamic
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Drew Sumter: so that the same concepts, the same techniques, the same content is is resonating throughout the organization. And this is what we call a common language, and it allows people to speak their own language, which is essentially a win win for all. So I think those are my top 3 misconceptions that I normally see Emma and Rachel.
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Rachel Cardero: I love that because I think we do do that. Many organizations we're all familiar with the idea of, like the goals cascade. But there's this inherent
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Rachel Cardero: push sometimes for like a skills cascade like we'll teach folks here, and then somehow, it'll reach every level in the organization. And I do like if you can push that everyone to everyone more of the social context, you know the essential bites of learning and habits where people are helping each other, and it can be super effective.
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Drew Sumter: Yeah. And most importantly, you need to make sure those skills are super relevant to everyone. Right? If you're an account, your accounting skill set might not be relevant to someone who's in marketing. So you really need to keep this in mind. And and, Rachel, that's 1 of the great things that you and your team do? When building out and and consulting amongst our top clients.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah. Well, you know, we're almost at the end. But I did want to just bring up one question that Daisy had about the how do you? How do you make sure to kind of ease the fear of someone who thinks they just can't learn something, or or even unlearn something, because a lot of times we're trying to kind of change behavior from something we don't want to see.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah.
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Rachel Cardero: I'd I think it's a really great question, Daisy. I saw it as it came up, and I was like, Oh, that's a that's a good one, and I would say, growth mindset can be one of the most powerful tools that you can use.
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Rachel Cardero: So a couple of things. You know, there are lots of studies where they give the same exam to groups of students, and for one group of students or participants, they'll tell them. You know, this is a measure of your intelligence. You know the the point of this, like we want you to do, really? Well, and we're gonna see how smart you are, how good your skill set is based on this test or exam to the other group of students. They say
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Rachel Cardero: this is going to be a hard test.
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Rachel Cardero: as kind of the point is to give you difficult material to have you work through it. Do your best.
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Rachel Cardero: It's gonna be challenging
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Rachel Cardero: and the people that get that messaging the this is gonna be hard and it's gonna be challenging. The point is for you to keep working through it
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Rachel Cardero: score better
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Rachel Cardero: score better. So the exact same test, same material, and using your language to help people understand? Before they even get into the classroom before they log into a platform.
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Rachel Cardero: that the point of something is to help them get better, increase accelerate, boost their exposure. All of that language. That's not just about mastery, or, you know, just like you. You know it, or you don't know it can help you.
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Rachel Cardero: I think that any messaging where you are saying, you know, we are working towards back to that coherence. We're working on becoming an organization that has more X more accountability. You, even in accounting learning some of these terms about digital transformation will be useful to you. The point of this is to expose you. The point of this learning is to
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Rachel Cardero: give you something new that you may not have experienced. It may be a little difficult at times. That's okay. That's okay. We want you to learn this. We want you to see it. We want you to experience it. And we're going to support you along the way, just like those verbiage changes and infusing growth mindset into your messaging, or the 1st couple of moments of any training, experience, or learning experience can go a long way.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah.
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Emma Sarro: Go. Ahead. Oh, yeah. Good.
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Drew Sumter: Yeah, it's it's funny. I mean, a a lot of times. You you see that fear you just be. There's there's other comments in here just about resistance to learning one more thing, right? So a lot of times we've seen very strong role modeling
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Drew Sumter: from from senior leaders. Beckton Dickinson, which is a client of ours, and their CEO came on
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Drew Sumter: one of our sessions and and just talked about the importance of growth. Mindset, Microsoft the the know it all is to learn it all right. This is the type of thing that exhibiting and and leveraging a a growth mindset can really help solve. And and we found that kind of unlock potential on some folks that that don't necessarily
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Drew Sumter: feel there's
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Drew Sumter: different things to learn and then honestly, just the acknowledgement, when, if you see that shift and certain skeptics and you're able to turn a skeptic into an advocate. It's 1 of the most powerful things you can do for a learning initiative or any initiative. For that matter. So those are just some some kind of things we always think about when when working with some of the more skeptical folks.
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Emma Sarro: That's great. Thanks, Drew. Actually, one of the things that's coming up for me about growth mindset and just changing. That is that it's actually so easy. It can be as simple as just adding a few words or or having a simple statement, and and it can happen very quickly. I mean, you can just change someone's mindset in a matter of minutes for this learning experience. So it's not. It's not a big challenge.
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Emma Sarro: And I know we're are coming close to the end. This is an incredibly informational session. I think people got a lot out of it. I know that, you know, if anyone here wants to, you know, learn more. Talk to these experts. Just
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Emma Sarro: place in the chat pathways and where you're where you're from, and someone reach out to you, and you can talk to Rachel or talk to Drew or any of their teams. Is there anything else that either of you want to, you know. Say, before we pass back over to Shelby.
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Drew Sumter: I I just I see some familiar faces in the chat some clients we've worked with. I I just wanna thank the participants for joining today and for such great dialogue going in in the chat? These questions come up, and they really inform what we do here in terms of how we work with our clients, and and how we meet the learners, and how we meet participants to to really understand how we can just
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Drew Sumter: be better humans and and do things differently in terms of behavior change. So thank you all for for joining the session today. And thank you. Emma and Rachel for joining as well.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, likewise big. Thank you. I know you all are doing a lot of work to help people learn and have better experiences at work.
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Emma Sarro: Awesome. Thank you, Rachel, and Drew and I will pass it back over to Shelby. Thanks all for showing up today.
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Shelby Wilburn: Awesome. Thank you all so much. Again, we appreciate your time and the information that you shared a few more things before we close out. I know we're a little close to time, so we're gonna put up a poll. Let us know how analyt can help you. And as Drew mentioned. Some of 2024 is underway. We're going fully virtual, and it's going to be on October 29th and 30.th So make sure that you take advantage of our early bird special, which is still going right now.
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Shelby Wilburn: Now visit summit dot neuro leadership.com for all your needs, all of the information and everything that you need to know. For insider change. This is specifically for senior executives. If you enjoy your brain at work, live, we think you'll really love this program. It's an exclusive opportunity to have a round table with our internal leaders to learn more about new innovations at hand. So if you're interested in that we'll send the link as well. And lastly, we want to partner with our
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Shelby Wilburn: our community. So if you are interested in hosting an event with Nli and collaborating with us.
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Shelby Wilburn: Please keep an eye out for that, and also just check in on our page. We'll make sure to get information to you as well in our follow up. And if you enjoy listening to the webinar, then you'll love the podcast it is your brain at work. Wherever you listen to podcasts and for listeners out there. If you do listen and you want a summit ticket, you can use your brain at work 24 to get 10% off, so
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Shelby Wilburn: make sure you take advantage of that. And this is where we say farewell. So on behalf of our team, behind the scenes and everyone else. We appreciate you. Thanks for being here, and we'll see you same time next week.