How does cognitive bias impact leadership development opportunities across lines of gender, race and identity? What might we lose when habits of inclusion are left out of the leadership pipeline conversation? On this episode of Your Brain at Work Live, NLI’s expert faculty dives into the surprising positive impact inclusive leadership practices can afford.
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Welcome back to another week of your brain at work. Live! I'm your host, Shelby Wilburn, for our regulars. We're happy to have you back. And for our newcomers, we're excited to have you here with us today. For the first time in this episode, we're celebrating women's history month and exploring inclusive leadership.
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and Nli's expert faculty will dive into the positive impact. Inclusive leadership has on your organization. Now, as I quickly share some housekeeping notes, drop in the comments or chat where you're joining in from today.
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we are recording today's session. So if you're interested in a replay, be on the lookout for an email later today, that email is also going to include a survey for feedback as well as a number of resources that are aligned with today's conversation. We suggest putting your phone on, do not disturb quitting out of your email and messaging apps. So you can really get the most out of today's discussion. And it's also going to help with your audio and video quality, and we love interaction. So feel free to share your thoughts and comments with us in the chat.
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Now to get this show underway, I'm going to introduce our speakers for today.
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Our first guest for today is a researcher at the Neuro Leadership Institute, where she helps clients achieve goals through targeted research and measurement design.
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Prior to joining and Nli, she applied inclusion research to develop leader tools, to improve military force, readiness. She holds a masters of public health and a Ph. D. In community psychology, a warm welcome to the research team's expert on diversity, equity, and inclusion at and Nli, Dr. Bridget Lynn.
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Thanks for being here today, Bridget.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: Happy to be here.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: Our next guest is responsible for leading and developing the corporate solutions and education facilitation teams within, and Nli Amia ensuring, we maintain quality high standards of delivery and generate greater learning insight.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: Prior to joining in Li. In 2,003 she had over 30 years of board level experience within financial services, management, consultancy, and recruitment sectors. She is an executive coach with over 4,000 coaching hours and a coach supervisor. She's completed a postgraduate diploma in neuroscience of leadership, and holds a degree in business administration. Please join me in welcoming master facilitator at Ni. Marcia Smith
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: thank you for being here today, Marcia.
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Marcia Smythe: It's a pleasure Shelby. And I'm really. And our moderator for today is a public speaker who engages on a variety of topics surrounding De and I leadership and women in the workplace, not to mention her Tedx talk on banishing the Miss Congeniality complex. She's also the author of the book. Would the world be better if we were all alike?
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Marcia Smythe: Her expertise in leadership, development, diversity, strategic planning, and Hr. Led her to join, and Nli, where she engages in client-facing, consulting, and facilitating teams to support organizational programs, a warm welcome to our distinguished faculty of leadership and performance at and Nli Kristy pruitt Haynes.
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Marcia Smythe: Thanks for being here today, Christy and I will pass it over to you.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Shelby, and thank you, Bridget and Marcia, for being with us today for this. What I think is gonna be a really impactful conversation. So with that, let's just jump right in because we have so much, I think, to talk about and unpack and sort of share our perspectives on.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: So, as we all know, this is women's history month.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: And such an important part, when we think about particularly women in the workplace is how organizations can really prioritize women in leadership, what the, what people's experiences are in organizations, and how that may differ from the experiences of men and things of that nature. So that's a little bit of what we want to talk about today. And you know, we've all heard all of the statistics on
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: the business imperative of having women in leadership, and how that ultimately can actually help the organization function, help it, kind of pull things together and deliver better results. But we've also heard so much around women having very different experiences in the workplace than what men do. So part of what we want to talk about today is really dive into the question of
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: how can we keep our talent? How can we retain women? How can we make sure women are moving up in leadership. And how can we make sure the experience they are having and the process it takes to get? There is one that is both efficient and effective, but also really honors who we all are at our core.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: So we want to talk a bit about. And from a neuroscience perspective, we usually look at this in the through the lens of priorities, habits, and systems. If you know anything about Nli, you've heard us talk about Ph.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: so we're gonna talk a lot about both the priorities and the systems that can help women move up into the world of leadership and make sure that organizations are capitalizing on having women in those roles as much as possible.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: So the focus of our conversation today specifically being, if organizations are not intentionally moving, women up helping women succeed? Are they unintentionally setting women up for failure? And more importantly, are they unintentionally cannibalizing their own results in their own success?
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: So where we'd love to start. The conversation is just a quick thought about what it is. We mean when we say leadership. I think we want to do a bit of context and definition setting, if you will.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: So so often, when people think of leadership, we think only of people leadership.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: And do you have a team under you that's reporting to you. And obviously, that's a huge part of it. But there's also the idea of process leadership and project leadership and things of that nature. Bridget, I would love to to maybe hear from you. Just get your thoughts on your definition of leadership, and how the 2 of those may really come together.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: Yeah, thank you so much, Christy. So for me, I have not held a role where I have been a leader of a team. I've had a single direct report. In a previous position.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: However, I do find that I often find myself leading projects or processes. That are important for the team, and
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: so for me. When we were first talking about me coming on, I was hesitant thinking, like, Am IA leader? Is this leadership. What types of behaviors am I engaging in? And I was so happy to start that conversation with you, to say there can be many ways to lead. And so I like that broad definition. Going into this conversation.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Wonderful. Thank you. And, as Andrea stated in the chat, and so well stated, we are all leaders of ourselves.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: and when we think of it through that lens. Each of us do have that responsibility to be a leader, to lead ourselves to lead processes, etc, Marcia. Anything you'd like to add. There.
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Marcia Smythe: Yeah, thanks, Christy. For me. And I'll just start off by saying I'm in a very lucky position. My grandmother was actually a a suffragette. So in the Uk, so yeah, I come from a fairly long line of fairly independent women who really believe in us being able to do whatever we set out to do, whatever we want to achieve. Going back to what you said and ask me about leadership.
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Marcia Smythe: I have to agree with those comments in the chat.
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Marcia Smythe: A leader doesn't need to lead people or processes we lead, or or anything else. We lead ourselves by our attitude. By the way we are, by what we're wanting to the goals we set, the vision that we have and the way that we plan to get there.
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Marcia Smythe: And as we all know, we're only human, we're not always going to get right all the time, but it's what we learn and how we then develop and grow. And
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Marcia Smythe: you know we're leaders. I happen to have children, and I have grandchildren.
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Marcia Smythe: and I very much believe in at times, being the leader in my personal life. I mean, I have a husband, and you know we equal partners. But I believe that leadership needn't be about just leading a team. As Bridget said, it's all encompassing. It's what you want to achieve as an individual.
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Marcia Smythe: and how you then set your sights. Set your goals, and what you do to try and achieve that.
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Marcia Smythe: So that's just my view on it, Christy.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Perfect. And I completely agree. And having said that though there is still something to be said about women actually being in those what we consider traditional leadership.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: So having departments and individuals reporting. And there's so many statistics on. When organizations have women in those leadership roles, we see the success of that organization sore. And I think that's where I'd love to take our our conversation. Next to really talk about some of the realities we're seeing in the workplace when it comes to women.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: and as we do that I'd love to get our audience in on the conversation. Chat, let us know if you feel your organization is really helping or hindering. Women moving into leadership roles feel free to add as much context and background as you would like to that, but would love to know in your opinion, how is that happening in your organization? Is that a priority you're seeing? Are you seeing women ascending to those traditional leadership roles?
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Or are there still some roadblocks that we need to move past
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: now? Having said that, thinking a bit about the reality that we see in so many workplaces. You know I saw a a very. I'll be on a sad statistic recently that women are leaving
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: particularly leadership roles. But leaving organizations involuntarily at a rate about 10% higher than men.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: So we're seeing almost this, this mass exit of women in leadership roles. At the same time, we know that organizations that have women in leadership roles are more successful organizations that have those diverse leadership teams. They perform better. They outperform organizations that don't.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: So we're stuck with this kind of 2 way, this dichotomy, if you will of. We need women in those roles to be more successful. And yet they're leaving and even the women who are staying within the organization often report that they don't have the same experience around being developed around performance, management, opportunities.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: things of that nature. So when we look at those kind of 2 very opposite statistics, if you will, would love to know what comes to mind for for each of you, and thinking about, how can organizations either do a better job or even just? Why is that our reality, Marcia? Any thoughts on the the sort of duality of we need women to succeed yet leaving. And we aren't developing them in the same way. We aren't assessing them in the same way, etc.
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Marcia Smythe: Yes,
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Marcia Smythe: I was. I was, I mean, I mean, I think we have differences, Christy, between yourselves in North America
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Marcia Smythe: and in a mirror.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Yeah, but.
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Marcia Smythe: And there are also cultural differences between the countries in Emea. So it's a very mixed bag for us.
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Marcia Smythe: I'm seeing what we're seeing through Nli through our clients in the Amir region of Nli.
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Marcia Smythe: that there are
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Marcia Smythe: a very large percentage of senior people are women.
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Marcia Smythe: and they're women who are have maybe gone up through the ranks not necessarily in, should we say the traditional sectors that we think that'd be in like Hr. For example.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: With.
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Marcia Smythe: Them a lot of senior women in finance, a lot of senior women who are in operational situations.
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Marcia Smythe: I've been very lucky. I've been working with tech company in Stockholm, and they have in their engineering. They have very, very senior women, and they do everything they can to keep them, they allow. You know, so much more time with the families, so much more social time. And they they have that which really helps people helps women to stay in those roles, they can see how lucky they are. Now, the other hand, is, we have
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Marcia Smythe: other countries where that doesn't happen.
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Marcia Smythe: and you know some of our clients in other areas of Europe are very male dominated. And very few women in senior positions.
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Marcia Smythe: So.
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Marcia Smythe: And there's a lot of
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Marcia Smythe: I'd say toxicity, toxicity around the fact that, you know men will maybe go out on a I don't know. I'll say a Thursday night after work, but their assumption in certain European countries is that women have to go home
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Marcia Smythe: and cook a meal. Look after the children. All this be the homemaker.
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Marcia Smythe: And in those sort of organizations it is really challenging to get people to think outside the box to. Actually, you know, we're we're wanting, I suppose, younger people to come in who really are much more open and accepting
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Marcia Smythe: of the fact that women can do just as good a job at senior leadership levels as men can sometimes better. But then I'm biased. That's a bias. But seriously, it's I think we have. We are. We are. There are differences between ourselves in North America and us in Europe, and obviously I can. I can speak more on the European side, for obvious reasons.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Well, and I'm so glad you brought that up, because that is an important thing for us to think about. There are absolutely regional and geographic differences. Even here in the United States there are differences with between different demographics that I think we'll talk about a bit more in a moment. But one of the things you brought up that I would love to kind of go a bit deeper with is some of the policies around, or assumptions
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: around what women are doing, especially either in the office or after work versus what men are doing. And Bridget, one of the conversations you and I were having previously was about those assumptions, and
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: how we think me when men and women are perceived what we believe they should and shouldn't do sometimes the assignments, even that are given to women in the workplace versus me, and when we think of stretch assignments can be a little different, would love to hear your thoughts on how some of those assumptions may be playing into things.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: Sure. So for me, a very specific example is I used to work at the Army Research Institute and for the United States Army and
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: the United States Army is really a hyper masculine environment that is focused very much on uniformity. And I was a researcher working on diversity, equity, and inclusion, and during my time there I actually took a really cool course, a red teaming course. And in that course I was the only female and I was also the only
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: civilians. So everyone else was uniformed officers, and they were all men, and I actually happened to be pregnant with my second daughter at the time, but I just remember some of the things that used to be said that you know about even going out on a weekend. It was one time they're like, oh, what's everybody's weekend plans? And the instructor looked at me and said, You know you probably don't have much other than looking after the kids.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: And you know, it's just things like that sometimes that I think these societal norms creep into how we view
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: ourselves and each other. And so I think that is an important socio historical piece of what the workplace is for women right now.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Absolutely. And I think those societal norms and some of those assumptions are having a huge effect effect on the experience that women have.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: When we're talking about this episode, doing a bit of digging into research which you know we love? We found that about 26% of women have felt either uncomfortable or unsafe, due to microaggressions or some form of discrimination within the workplace.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: And as well as about fif knowing, 50% of us employees are women, yet we are still significantly below that when we look at our role in leadership. Bridget, any other thoughts on how these statistics and and how that reality may be playing out in the workplace, or it gets a better question how those societal norms are showing up in the workplace.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: I'll talk about something that I feel really passionate about and that's the reality women face when they actually step into leadership roles.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Yes.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: And for me, I think one of the biggest barriers is that
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: women step into a role and a being able to stick to the scope of work that's outlined in the single position that they've been hired for is very difficult.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: and I have personally seen opportunity quickly turn into exploitation a number of times. Which to me it's an extremely harmful form of performance punishment. And so I've seen really stellar women doing fabulous work, being put into situations, and they're given so much work like an impossible amount of work.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: And the responsibility that they, you know, under all of it they begin to crumble because it's it's too much. And the problem is that they're more than capable of doing all of the things they can do, all of the things they're being asked to do. But all of the things is not what they've been hired to do.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: and the scope becomes so broad that they're inadequately resourced, and their efforts really become diluted and ineffective. And to me this is when we start talking about ph, it's really important that we have this clarity and priorities that we have the habits in place that can check ourselves, and what we're asking others to do, and the systems in place to reinforce those behaviors.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: So for me, a big thing is, what's the scope of work for this particular position, and where to scope, creep, come in? And how do I maintain that.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: So glad you said that because that you know, it's one of the realities that I think sometimes makes people and women in particular second guess if they even want to step into leadership roles, because we've all seen those realities play out. So with that I would love to take our conversation and ask each of you, and and I'll respond as well
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: what would motivate you to step into a leadership role as a woman? For those, for you know, positions you've had previously. What made you want to go there? And and what are things organizations even can do to help motivate you to want to move in that direction, Marcy. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.
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Marcia Smythe: Lovely. Well, historically, I can go back
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Marcia Smythe: to the early 80 s. Actually. And I'd had my son. I'd been out of work because we didn't have the the ability at that day and age to claim maternity benefit or have time off.
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Marcia Smythe: And so I'd had my son, and he was 2, and I was.
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Marcia Smythe: I actually missed work. I wanted to go back to work. Yes, I missed the money as well, but I I really missed
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Marcia Smythe: the work
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Marcia Smythe: and the work environment. And I was lucky enough. I joined and this is actually backing up something that you said. They're both Christy and also Bridget. A few minutes ago the feeling that
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Marcia Smythe: I applied for Job with Hertz Corporation. You know the rental car and Vehicle Management company. And I applied for Job. That was lower, should we say, than my capabilities, and lower than what what I'd left before? I mean? I haven't worked for them before, but for the organization, I'd work before I had my son, and I did it because I had this. Why would somebody employ me?
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Marcia Smythe: Because A. I'm a woman.
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Marcia Smythe: and I honestly believe that. And B. I've got a little boy, and I've been out of work for 2 years. Blah de blah.
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Marcia Smythe: I joined them, and actually work my way up. I was with them for 15 years and for 7 of those years I was director of sales, marketing, and client development for them. In the Uk.
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Marcia Smythe: I was the only woman at that level within world, the world for Hertz at that stage, and
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Marcia Smythe: I did it, and I was really lucky because I'm had. My! So my managing director in the UK. Believed in me.
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Marcia Smythe: He saw beyond the fact
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Marcia Smythe: that I was a woman
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Marcia Smythe: he saw that I was capable of doing.
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Marcia Smythe: and more than capable of doing that that role.
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Marcia Smythe: And I do take Bridget's point there of where does this creep come in?
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Marcia Smythe: I actually wanted it because I loved what I did so much, and I enjoyed the company I work, for I was incredibly lucky.
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Marcia Smythe: You know I work for an American organization that even in that stage believed in coaching.
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Marcia Smythe: and I was coached. I mean. That's what the management style was, and I have compared everything I've done
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Marcia Smythe: every other organisation I work with until I joined Nli, but in between
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Marcia Smythe: nothing matched up to the experience I had there. Where you have belief, somebody believes you. Somebody backs you. Somebody knows you're going to make mistakes. Somebody never took credit for the work I did within sales and marketing and and client development. It was always you've run that, Marcia. You've done it, and once you've experienced that
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Marcia Smythe: it's terribly challenging to be satisfied to work for an organization that doesn't give you that acknowledgement and that feedback constantly. And you you know the 3 of us realize and know very, very well the importance of acknowledgement and and feedback
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Marcia Smythe: and that for me is so important in this day and age for women going into leadership roles, realistic, authentic feedback.
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Marcia Smythe: I've probably gone a long way round answering your question there, Christy, but you know I was lucky.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Yes, and you hit on so many critical points, and some of them I wanna dig into a bit deeper in just a moment as we talk about some of the other, some of the things that organizations can do to really show that this is a priority. And to really you know we always say kind of put your money where your mouth is, so to speak.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: So no, I'm glad you went there. Thank you for taking the long way. Perfect response.
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Marcia Smythe: Thank you.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Yes, absolutely, Bridget. You know your thoughts on what it would take and what would motivate you to want to move into kind of traditional leadership, roles.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: Yeah, I think Marcia, really
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: did a great job of saying what I would think would be so important. And for me, that is as a leader.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: being able to create the right conditions for people to succeed. And that is what I really feel like is powerful leadership. Setting people up to contribute to their full potential and thrive in the work that they do, and
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: that
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: takes a lot of transparency, a lot of thought, clarity and guidance and recognition. I think there's a large piece of engagement that needs to be present. Making sure that you're engaging the people that will be directly impacted by any of the work that you're doing, because they're often the people that will be the most passionate about it as well.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: It's having the autonomy and ability to kind of
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: really seek out what gives people energy to figure out what it is that they want to do and what motivates them and be able to kind of create those conditions and move pieces and parts around. So that to me I feel like is what would motivate me to be in a leadership role is having that greater sense of autonomy and ability to do that.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Absolutely, and I love that you brought up that idea of autonomy and the support, and I feel like what each of you are describing to some extent is
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: the culture of the organization plays such a huge role. In. Not only can you be successful as a leader, but if you even want to. So it becomes really important to think about. What is the culture of that organization? What are those systems that we're seeing showing up? I can't wait to move the conversation to when we get to some of those, some of those thoughts, because I think that's gonna be really important.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: and we'll look forward to hearing from our audience on those as well.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: you know, for me, when I think about leadership roles and moving into leadership.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: It really did have a lot to do with that specific organization, and I will say the other thing, that that probably helped me. Some is it takes a lot of confidence. You gotta be a little fearless because we've talked some about the societal norms that are there. We've talked some about the realities that exist
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: and and it takes a certain amount of of confidence to say, you know what. In spite of that, I am still going to push forward, and then I'm still going to do this. But I think organizations have a huge opportunity to support that confidence and to make sure that they are doing everything to reinforce and letting women know
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: we got you. You can do this. Keep moving ahead.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: And, as we know, with all leaders, none of nobody's going to get it perfect every time.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: And I think how organizations respond to those mistakes that we are inevitably going to make. Makes such a huge difference. You know. I've seen and and read an article recently that said, unfortunately, when we think about performance management, women tend to be criticized a bit more in performance management judged a bit more harshly. And a lot of their performance management sort of comments. A lot of the feedback they get are more related to personality traits.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: then work traits. And that should not be. And when we see that happening, it's really kind of robbing women of developing the skills they need, and even knowing how to how to focus and how to aim their career if you will, to make sure they have the skills to move up.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: and I think that's one of the most significant barriers we see in women being successful in leadership roles is not getting that feedback and not having that support, but from from either of you who wants to jump in any other thoughts on some barriers that we sometimes see existing for women being successful in leadership, roles.
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Marcia Smythe: Christy for me. I think we have to think, to acknowledge
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Marcia Smythe: that there is. Again, I'll use the word toxic, a toxic influence of power.
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Marcia Smythe: and when power gets in the way, you know, people don't want to lose that power, and often that can be seen as
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Marcia Smythe: I hate to say it, but you know we can be seen as weaker.
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Marcia Smythe: And therefore power. Can people who use power in senior positions
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Marcia Smythe: can be really threatening to even, you know, a woman at a leadership level. It can still be very threatening if you come across
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Marcia Smythe: people who use power in a toxic way, and I very sadly, I think it is happening in in lots of situations.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Okay, completely agree completely up. Agree, Bridget, any thoughts on what some of those barriers may be that we haven't touched on already.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: Yeah, I I think just kind of bringing it all together.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: the barriers are systems that are set up to reward what society is trained as are the stereotypical, successful leaders, and for in North America, in the Us. We need to look no further than our elected Presidents to see what those stereotypes are.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: What it means to be a powerful leader, a stereotypical kind of view of that. And I think one of the barriers that kind of stands in the way is not only that socio historical piece, but also there's this piece that I think will get into as well. You have the power dynamics. You have the
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: really the oppression of women in society and in organizations that happens because we carry all of these biases with us. And it is not necessarily because we are bad people. It is because we've designed systems that are working exactly how they were designed to work that keep this stereotype in mind.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: And so I think some of the ways we start to think about. How do we? You know
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: fight back against this? And one of the things we can use is our seeds model like, what are those biases that constantly creep in that we need to know about and keep in check. And and that's a tool. The seeds model that we can use to kind of examine our biases. So I think for me, that's one big thing in organizations is is looking at the biases that are an embedded in systems
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: and really thinking through what's the stereotypical that I'm pulling to mind when I see somebody filling this position, and how can I make sure that I push back against that.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And you know, to add to that, I think
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: another barrier that we see. And and this is one that really hits close to home. Probably for all of us is, it can be both a pro and a con. But it's the idea of looking at women as a monolith
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: kind of lumping all women together. And, Marcia, I have to credit you and thank you for reminding me even the way we were having this conversation initially, I have to acknowledge, had a very Us. Centric North America centric sort of approach, and the reality is
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: across the world, and even across different demographic groups the experiences that women are having in the workplace while there are a lot of similarities, some of them are different. So I'd love for us to kind of dive into that a little bit, and to start the conversation. You know my thought is
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: when we talk about women as a collective group.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: We then get the benefit of our numbers. We are, you know, at least in the Us. And and pretty much around the world. About half of the population in some place a little more, a little low, but in general we're about half the population.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: So in looking at women as a kind of collective group. We have the power of numbers behind us, so we can come together, and we can hopefully push for for different changes, different shifts and organizations, etc.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: But there's also a bit of danger in that, because different age groups of women are going to face different battles. When women are a bit younger people may assume. Oh, they're going to leave the workplace because they're going to have kids. So the treatment they they get could be a little different.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: or as a woman of color. When I enter a room, and something is is, you can tell when your spidey senses are tingling and something isn't going the right way. I have to ask myself, is it because I'm a woman? Is it because I'm a person of color? In reality it's that intersectionality of it. And I think we have to talk about that, and maybe look at ways that we, as a group of women, can support the subsets of women that still exist within our population.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: So would love to hear any thoughts that that you all have. And I I have a lot I could probably fill the hour on the rest of these. But thoughts on looking at women as a monolith versus really focusing on some of those subsets, whether it's by demographic, or whether it's by region that sort of thing. And I, just before I throw it to each of you, would love to just call out in the chat
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: where several people are talking about how impactful and important intersectionality is as a topic, and it absolutely is, and it is a a part, or it has to be a part of this conversation. Even the term intersectionality came about when a group of black women were filing a suit against an organization saying that they weren't being promoted in the same way, and that company came back and said, Well, but we have women in leadership.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: and we have people of color in leadership. They just happen to be men. So clearly, you're not being discriminated against in any way. And it wasn't until they combined those 2 demographics that they really saw. Oh, we do have an issue that we need to lean into here. So you know, in thinking about the the women as a monolith versus a subset
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Marcia. Any thoughts on how you've seen that play out in how women are approached in leadership, or whether or not, we should look at us as a single group, or really pay attention those subsets. What comes to mind for you when we talk about that.
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Marcia Smythe: I absolutely agree with you. First of all, Christy, about the intersectionality.
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Marcia Smythe: I I often well, no, not often. That's the wrong word.
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Marcia Smythe: It's
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Marcia Smythe: it comes from our own biases, though, as you said, we carry those with us.
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Marcia Smythe: You know I am I've been working with Nl. Since 2,003.
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Marcia Smythe: I've seen a lot of facilitators come and go within a mia, and in, you know, North America and Apac, but certainly within a mia, which is what what I'll talk about.
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Marcia Smythe: And they
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Marcia Smythe: they come, and I'm sort of still there. And so I get to the stage where my intersectionality is. Yes, I happen to be white. I'm a woman.
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Marcia Smythe: do I?
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Marcia Smythe: Is there something? Then that comes in because I'm older than the others who are now.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Can we.
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Marcia Smythe: So ages and comes in as well. And that's a big thing for women at the moment in the Uk.
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Marcia Smythe: I won't get into the politics of it. But you know we are fight as women of a certain age in the UK. Are fighting because we were discriminated against for pensions.
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Marcia Smythe: If you know anything about it, and I'm not gonna go into it and get into the politics. But it was very much. It's against women. It's not against men. And so you, you know, we have this. Whatever the intersectionality is.
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Marcia Smythe: I think it comes the off. Well, we know the bias is there in me which is a very different bias from from yours, Christy, because that's my experience, and yours is yours. As far as
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Marcia Smythe: thinking about organizations are concerned. I don't think
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Marcia Smythe: we have, and I have no
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Marcia Smythe: I have no numbers to back this up, but my feeling is that within amia. We do not have the same level of intersectionality
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Marcia Smythe: that you have as women of colour in North America.
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Marcia Smythe: It's it's it's a different level.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: It's much.
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Marcia Smythe: Less. We don't. We don't see that as much, I mean occasionally you see it, but it is not.
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Marcia Smythe: It's not as big as it is with yourselves in North America.
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Marcia Smythe: I gotta go back, though, to what Bridget said a few minutes ago, and think about how we do put the systems in place.
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Marcia Smythe: make new habits, should we say, to really try and
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Marcia Smythe: get rid of this intersectionality? I don't know how we do it. I haven't got an answer for that, but it's not as big for us, I would suggest in the Uk. In in a Mia. As it is for you in North America.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Thank you so much for that global perspective. And that does make a difference. And I'm sure that gives you the ability to really work more cohesively as a unit, as you're thinking about what we want to see changed and that sort of thing. So I appreciate that.
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Marcia Smythe: Chris. Sorry, Christy, may I just add something sorry, Bridget. I apologize.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: That's okay. Just.
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Marcia Smythe: One thing that
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Marcia Smythe: I found very interesting. We've got. I won't mention the clients, but in amia we have 2 clients, both very large. One's a management consultancy, I mean, we have lots of clients, but I'm at least just 2 examples. One's a management consultancy, and one is an Energy Company
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Marcia Smythe: and the management consultancy.
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Marcia Smythe: and they
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Marcia Smythe: it. Their their decision Maker was based in mid Europe. Okay, not in the Uk.
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Marcia Smythe: And they specifically asked us.
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Marcia Smythe: 4.
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Marcia Smythe: A male facilitator.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: They would.
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Marcia Smythe: Not look at a female facilitator.
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Marcia Smythe: I was put forward to it as head because I head up the the facilitation team, and they wouldn't even interview me.
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Marcia Smythe: They would only interview males.
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Marcia Smythe: We have an energy company based in the Uk.
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Marcia Smythe: Who are I'm working with at the moment, and I'm going in there and working with them on unconscious bias, and how to become more inclusive because they are aware that their engineers are mainly young white men.
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Marcia Smythe: and they're saying what happens when and of course they've got the the dual thing of of being you know they've got their internal clients as then, because they're engineers to their teams, and they have their customers who are clients out in. You know the homes and the factories and everything else.
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Marcia Smythe: And they're saying we have to
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Marcia Smythe: instill in these young white men that they're not privileged, that they need to treat everybody exactly the same.
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Marcia Smythe: And for me the stark contrast of this energy company versus a management consultancy! Who should be really in our brains, very well aware of all this, much more aware.
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Marcia Smythe: And yet they're they're complete opposites. And I'm sorry. I just wanted to mention that to you, because that's the dichotomy we have within Europe.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: So.
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Marcia Smythe: You know, just regional.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: And and I think that's something we probably see around the world. And and I think it really highlights some of the issues that women are still facing in the world.
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Marcia Smythe: Yeah. Good.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: In general, then leadership in particular. Yes, so thank you for that. I want to go back to you to get your thoughts on. Sort of the idea of men as a as a monolith, as a versus some of the subsets, and some of the differences that we may see, particularly when we think about leadership depending on various, you know, demographics and things of that nature.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: Yeah, so when I think about it.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: I think even more than there being a downside to not looking beyond the majority. It can actually be harmful.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Mmhm.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: I think, by not looking beyond the majority, we can unintentionally reinforce the status quo, even it that appears that it is changing overall for women in a positive direction. If you don't look behind that and see what's happening. For
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: you know, within the group of women, then you can create harm. And so one of the you know, important parts of this is in the diversity, equity, and inclusion work. There was a article that I read that was so important. And that is what happens when white women become the face of diversity, equity, and inclusion. And what happens is that we see sometimes there's a positive movement for women.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: However, we don't look underneath to see how it actually can be harmful to women and people of color, and particularly black women.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: Black women often have the hardest time at work. In facing biases and barriers. And I think if we don't say that out loud and start to understand why it's happening. Then we are reinforcing the systems and holding them in place. That continues that behavior. And so for me, it is about understanding.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: White is a race. It isn't the reference group of you know, that we compare everything to I think it's about understanding that. There are. There is diversity.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: People feel comfort in similarity.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: but if you are not able to feel discomfort
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: and and really embrace what it means to have and be surrounded by diversity. You cannot capture the value, and I think that is an important thing to understand is that if you are uncomfortable you are probably growing. It is something you need to do, and I I always default to pick up the mirror and then point to finger. And what I see is oftentimes people skip to pick up the mirror, part and start pointing fingers and.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Yeah.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: I feel like that is important in diversity, equity, and inclusion work in particular, because when I start seeing things, I like to say, this is what I have done. This is how I've embarrassed myself. This is how I work to fix it, whereas a lot of times I see people say, this is what I've seen others do. And I think if we start at home, then that is the biggest part to kind of dismantling these systems and understanding what goes into them.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Very well said, I feel like I should do a standing ovation. So absolutely, absolutely agree. And I think, you know, we've talked a lot about the realities. What women are facing in the workplace.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: What women, particularly in leadership, are are dealing with and navigating some of those assumptions, some of those societal norms that have been traditionally barriers. But we also know the reality is.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: women are succeeding, and it is capable, and there just have to be some things in place to really set us up for that. So where I would love to pivot the conversation to our what can we do about it. We this, I feel like a lot of this has been very doom and gloom. But there are things that organizations can do to really shift things for the the experience that women and leadership are having. So as we start talking about those, I'd also like to throw a question out to the audience.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Just so far, what's really resonating for you would love to see some thoughts there in the chat. What questions you have or what really stands out for you? Or what's been your experience as a woman leader in an organization, or as a man who's watching sort of other women move and pivot through the organization. So
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: from what we've talked about so far, I would love to know some of the things that are really sticking out for you, and what thoughts it's causing you to have. But as you're putting those in, let's let's shift our conversation a bit to how can we change this. What is the you know? What's the what that can be done?
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: And you know, Bridget, I think it was you who mentioned earlier about the importance of Ph and priorities, habits and systems. And a lot of this for me comes back to some systems, work. That all organizations can do that help to provide the equity and really prioritize women in the workplace. And I do want to say one thing, one call out
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: so often people can get uncomfortable when we start talking about doing things or targeting one group kind of lifting one group up. But I'm a firm believer that when you kind of live from the bottom. Everybody rises.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: So while what we're discussing today may be targeted to moving women in leadership, the reality is having some of these things in place and moving as an organization in this direction really does elevate everybody while also elevating the results of the organization. So there's a lot of win wins here.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: But in thinking of that you know some of the things that really come to mind that we can do to to elevate women in leadership is something we've talked a lot about the conversations and the feedback.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: how essential that is, and and how how much that can provide the direction that women need when they either are in leadership or are aspiring to get to leadership roles.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: So you know, when we think some about the feedback would love to hear from each of you. What are your thoughts on the kind of feedback we need to be sharing? What's some feedback you've gotten? It's been really impactful in your career. What are some things that organizations can do in that way to really prioritize giving quality feedback? So women know what to focus on so they can move into these types of roles.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: And Bridget, I guess so I'll throw to you first, if you don't mind. I think I started with Marcia last time, so, trying to switch it up a bit.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: Sure. Sure. So
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: for me, the first thing I really think about when I think about feedback is
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: different than like verbal feedback. So what feedback am I receiving
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: in, generally speaking? And how does that motivate me
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: in organizations?
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: Almost always there's a level of performance.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: And so to me. What I like to ask is, what are the reward systems that are put in place, recognizing and supporting and reinforcing?
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: And so I start thinking about, how are we rewarded in our behaviors, and how can we shift from a self interest reward system, which I think almost all companies and organizations really are anchored in right now to a public interest reward system, where we're saying it's not about you, it's about we. It's not about yours. It's about ours.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: And I think that that is a dynamic shift to say, like, we're going to reward behaviors that are all about lifting people up. And so one thing I start to think about is
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: when I hear specific call outs. And this has been in every position I've ever held.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: I often see
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: the behavior of going above and beyond, recognized and rewarded. However, how that is
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: really recognize makes the difference. So when I hear individual call outs in all staff meetings that say something like, I want to thank Bridget for working after hours and over the weekend, and on her vacation
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: for helping get to whatever thing that to me is a harmful recognition and reward that is individual based. Bridget did this.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: and she not only that, but then you're reinforcing to everyone that's expected to kind of like work overtime nights, weekends. So to me, that shift would be in the system saying, I wanna recognize this team, this achievement and all the people that went into this achievement, and they got dirty. And they, you know, did a lot of stuff. And they was. It was tough. They were in the mud together. And so we're gonna give them a like a Spa day
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: mud retreat treatment. You know, there's something like that that is much different than like a call out and a reward for an individual. But it's like coming together and producing, which almost always is what has to happen, but making sure that everyone is somehow rewarded in that way as a team and a together and a collective
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: that's good feedback.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Yeah, it is. It is good feedback, and that ties us and moves the conversation directly to compensation and reward systems. So having team rewards as you talked about is a great way, but also ensuring equity in your compensation and reward systems. You know we've all heard a million statistics on
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: salary equity and pay gaps and things of that nature. And when organizations kind of lean into transparency around compensation and really prioritize that equity, women see that, and that sends such a strong message to the culture of that company. If an organization says very publicly, we are going to prioritize compensation equity, we're gonna do a study. We're gonna close any of those gaps that exist. For similar positions
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: that starts establishing the culture as one that truly does prioritize equity truly does prioritize
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: accomplishments over demographics and identity, and can absolutely send that message that we're an organization who want to see everyone rise who we want to see everyone kind of achieve at their highest level. So, thinking a bit about equity in our systems, what we use to evaluate the people who are promoted how we pay people. That sort of thing can be exceedingly impactful
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: when we think about moving women into leadership roles and again going back to the the intersectionality piece moving, making sure we're not just prioritizing one type of woman. But we're looking across the board. So I think equity is another
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: really strong thing we can do, and I have some other thoughts. But before I I continue with some of my other thoughts, Marcia, anything that that really stands out for you as things organizations can do, particularly on a systemic level. Ensure. We're moving in that direction.
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Marcia Smythe: Well, I'm a hundred percent with Bridget on what she said. There for me. It starts with not thinking about numbers, not thinking about ratios, not thinking about percentages, not just
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Marcia Smythe: hiring
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Marcia Smythe: women, because we need to get more women into the organization or whatever it is that to me is the wrong place to start. There was some research I don't know. Maybe some of you saw it. It was actually in Linkedin. It was done. I picked it up couple of days ago. There was some comments by Jay Van Babel, and and also Zohani, where they were talking about
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Marcia Smythe: discrimination in hiring isn't actually that bad at the moment
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Marcia Smythe: where discrimination and there's lots of evidence to show that discrimination gender discrimination persists in other areas. So it's once you get into the organization and it's salary negotiation. It's career advancement. We know this. And it's workplace dynamics which goes back to this power thing again. So I'm with Bridget. I think it's about looking at
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Marcia Smythe: rewards that organizations give. Is it intrinsic or extrinsic? What is it? Because we're all different? But let's try and get
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Marcia Smythe: people really thinking about those intrinsic rewards, the bits that give them the satisfaction. Not just money, not just a bonus, not just profit share. Yeah, they're important in this day and age, but really getting people to believe in the organization and the organization to believe in them.
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Marcia Smythe: And
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Marcia Smythe: with the
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Marcia Smythe: the piece that the British shared on feedback 100%.
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Marcia Smythe: I also think that what we need and I know we've done lots of of conversations we did one last week David Rock on on feedback, but the importance of giving feedback and asking for feedback
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Marcia Smythe: very frequently, not just waiting. And when I think about myself, the fact that you know when I going back to my days in hurts that I was, and in fact, my my boss. Now I I report into the Coo in in your Leadership Institute, and I can go to him and just say, Okay, just I really want you to tell me, after I've done this facilitation, or done this meeting, whatever what it was, that work really well.
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Marcia Smythe: and what I need to maybe rethink for next time, and constantly being aware of then stepping back and saying, Okay, that was genuine authentic feedback. So I can now work with that. So I think the responsibility is on
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Marcia Smythe: in this case, what we're talking about women ourselves
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Marcia Smythe: to actually work out
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Marcia Smythe: the goal of what we're wanting from our organ up from the organization, and how we can then work towards being
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Marcia Smythe: the best we can in that role.
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Marcia Smythe: With the feedback, the acknowledgement feeling a part of a team thinking about those of you who know our work here at Nli, the scarf model being very well assured. You know certain of of how we can work with people. It's the 5 emotional domains of the brains.
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Marcia Smythe: status certainty, autonomy, relatedness and fairness. I won't go into it anymore now, but I'm sure somebody maybe Evan will drop a link into the chat there. So really being aware of that, and organizations thinking about when people are in not just numbers
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Marcia Smythe: Christy over to you.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I think something you say. I really brought up a point for me so often. You'll hear organizations say, we don't have an issue with women in our organization. We're about 50 50, but, as you pointed out, it isn't always in the hiring. It's about how people matriculate through the organization. And that's one of the reasons we really wanted to center this conversation on women and leadership.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: because it is wonderful to have a really diverse organization. But you have to do almost a diagonal slice and look at a cross section of your company
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: is that diversity? And in this case we're talking specifically about women, is it spread across every level and every department? Or do you see huge concentrations in your entry level positions? And the higher you go up in the company, the fewer, you see, and unfortunately, that's the reality that so many are facing. And I think when we talk about some of these systemic changes like
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: making sure that that there's systems that allow people to move up, making sure that we have equity, making sure that we're giving feedback. That is really meaningful and actionable. That's when we can really see the the ascension, if you will, of women throughout every level of the organization, and as we talked about acknowledging, and, as Bridget pointed out, saying out loud the differences that occur, based on some intersectionality
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: and and really prioritizing that.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: And one last thing as we start to wrap up, you know, I think another thing that we really have an opportunity with is the idea of sponsorship
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: reaching out to women whether you are a man or woman in an organization reaching out to other women, being a sponsor, saying their names and rooms that they have not yet reached, knowing the skills that they have and looking for opportunities for them to display those skills within the organization, whether that be through, stretch assignments and make sure they're stretched assignments that are actually meaningful and contribute to the bottom line
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: and not just planning the company party. That's important. But we can do more than that. So really making sure that we are being very intentional
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: in the same way that we say, if you aren't intentionally including you're accidentally excluding. The same is true here. If we, as organizations aren't intentionally prioritizing, intentionally mentoring and intentionally establishing systems that really help women move through the organization in a meaningful way, then oftentimes we are accidentally doing the opposite. And not only do individuals suffer, but the organization's bottom line suffer. And I think that's something that can resonate with us all.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: So we are at time. I know we could have kept this conversation going for so long. Bridget and Marcia. I wanna thank you so much to our audience. I wanna thank you would love to see any final thoughts you have in the chat on what's really standing out for you. But with that, Evan, I'm gonna throw it back over to you. Thank you.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: If you are.
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Christy Pruitt-Haynes: Are from the.
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Dr. Brigid Lynn, MPH: Working with me today. It's wonderful.
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Evynn McFalls: Thank you.
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Marcia Smythe: You.
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Evynn McFalls: So much for a wonderful, wonderful panel. I greatly appreciate you being here, and I appreciate the in depth and powerful conversation I was so excited as you likely saw in the chat. Folks, I'm Evan Mcph here, just offering a few closing announcements. We have lifted up a poll here so that you can let us know how we can best support you as we close out today's session.
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Evynn McFalls: In addition to that, just wanted to share a few things coming up, one of which is, if you enjoy these community learning events here at the narrower Leadership Institute, you're going to love our insider exchange sessions.
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Evynn McFalls: Our insider program allows people to get upfront views into our research and any new innovations that are coming out of the Neuro Leadership Institute. It is for senior leaders at corporate. Yeah, that organizations. And you can learn more by following that link in the chat we are holding our next insider exchange next week. So we'd love to see your applications now and begin processing them.
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Evynn McFalls: The next thing I'd like to know is that we are taking the neuro leadership institutes learning events on the road, and we want to partner with you. We are currently soliciting information from companies like yours that are interested in partnering with us. If you'd like to host a neuro leadership learning event, please fill out the form and the link that was just shared by Tony here in the chat, and we will be in touch with you to discuss what partnership might look like.
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Evynn McFalls: The next thing I wanted to remind everybody, is these episodes of your on a brain at work are recorded. We do send a video after every session. And in addition to that, we also have a, podcast you can listen to this episode and so many more by visiting neuro leadership.com forward, slash, podcast or checking it out anywhere, that you stream podcast
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Evynn McFalls: and with all of that said, there's just one more thing. The neuro leadership Summit is coming back very soon this October, and we want to hear about. Hear from you about what you'd like to hear.
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Evynn McFalls: So if you're interested, please take part in that survey below, and it will be our pleasure to start taking that into consideration as we build the content for next, or for this year. Rather. Goodness gracious! Sooner than we think. And with all of that said, I thank you so much for your time today. You could spend this hour with anybody, and we're so grateful that you choose to do so with us.
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Evynn McFalls: I'm wishing you a happy weekend, and I thank you so much for your time. Farewell, everybody! Thanks.