During times of intense uncertainty and change, leaders are often called upon to navigate their team through challenges, provide clarity in the face of ambiguity, and make critical decisions under pressure. In the midst of the chaos, leadership development may be deprioritized, when in fact it is more important than ever. Skilled, well-equipped leaders can ignite their teams' performance and foster organizational grit and resilience. What are the key skills that leaders need to mobilize their teams when facing change? How can we provide leaders with the right tools to develop those necessary skills? And how can we get leaders to engage in the learning – one of the central challenges for HR and talent functions? The NeuroLeadership Institute has developed and refined a neuroscience-based leadership development program that has proven effective in increasing engagement and learning. Join Matt Summers, NLI’s Global Head of Leadership and Culture, and Dr. Emma Sarro, Senior Director of Research, to explore the fundamentals of leadership development, the key skills needed to handle uncertainty and change, and the various ways this learning can be scaled and delivered.
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Erin Wickham: Great. Hello, everybody! Welcome back!
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Erin Wickham: So good to have you back on Friday, when I was on my morning walk this morning, I thought, it's been so long since we had a your brain at work. Live. We took last Friday off for a tools down day here at the Neuro Leadership Institute, so we all had the day off. It was very nice to have that extra rest.
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Erin Wickham: but I missed you all in the audience. So welcome back to another week of your brain at work. Live, I'll be your host. Today. I'm Erin Wickham, Senior Director of Insight design at the Neuro Leadership Institute. We're happy to have you back if you're one of our regulars, and if you're a newcomer, welcome, we're excited to have you with us for the 1st time today in today's episode, we'll walk through the current state of leadership, the latest challenges facing leaders, and the work we've done to ensure that each leader can be set up for success.
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Erin Wickham: We'll discuss the Neuroleadership Institute's fundamentals of leadership development, the key skills that all leaders can develop and the various ways this learning can be scaled and delivered.
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Erin Wickham: Now, as I quickly share some housekeeping notes, feel free to drop into the chat. A Hello! A hello! Or you can share where you're calling in from, as it's always great to see where people are calling in from on these sessions.
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Erin Wickham: we do suggest that you put your phone on. Do not disturb and quit any email or messaging app so that you can get the most out of today's show. We love interaction. So feel free as we go through to share your thoughts and comments in the chat. Also share your questions. There. You can just put them in the chat. You don't have to worry about the like. The QA. Tab. We will periodically refer to the chat as we go through today.
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Erin Wickham: Our speakers today, the 1st one you know her. If you've been on one of these calls before she is, she holds a Phd. In neuroscience from the New York University. She leads the research team here at the Neuro Leadership Institute, where she focuses on translating cognitive and social neuroscience into actionable solutions for organizations, a warm welcome to our Senior Director of Research at Nli, Dr. Emma Sorrow, Hi, Emma!
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Emma Sarro: Hi erin.
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Erin Wickham: Good to see you.
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Erin Wickham: And Matt Summers is our other co-host. Today he is the head of leadership and culture at the Neuro Leadership Institute. Matt has 20 years of organizational transformation, culture, change and leadership consulting experience. Matt is also a lecturer at Simon Fraser University, where he teaches the neuroscience of business management to 4th year business students in Vancouver, and I think I'm passing it over to Matt.
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Matt Summers: Great. Thank you so much, Erin. And Hello, everybody, and welcome and Happy Friday to all of you. It's a distinct pleasure again to host, you at your brain at work. Emma and I have been talking at length this week, as we've been planning
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Matt Summers: our conversation for today, and I'm really excited to share just some of the new research neuroscience. And then, of course, most importantly, the practical application of that science that we've been really paying attention to over the last 12 to 18 months in this topic of meeting through uncertainty and change. So thanks for having me today and looking forward to our conversation.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, yeah. Excited to be here with you again. I mean, I think we've been talking about this for at least 2 years. It feels like, right and evolving our thinking. Yeah.
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Emma Sarro: yeah, absolutely. I mean, honestly, what? What aren't leaders facing right now? I mean, it's hard to, you know. Keep track of all of the change, all of the challenges that leaders are facing. You know. One thing that's really that has been interesting is, I've been kind of watching the trends on leadership. And over the last couple of years. What we've been finding is that leaders are reporting that they just feel
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Emma Sarro: sense of imposter syndrome, you know. They just question their efficacy. It'll, you know, cause them to, you know, question whether to speak up whether to the kinds of decisions they'll make. And just some really interesting data coming in 43% of senior executives. This is just out in the last few weeks. Report imposter syndrome, and this 71% of Ceos was
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Emma Sarro: data point that we pulled in late last year. It's really interesting and suggests that they're really struggling with how to lead and struggling with maybe all of the change. And what's kind of coming out of that is
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Emma Sarro: that leadership might be just losing its appeal. The burnout is overwhelming in managers and leaders, and we all feel that we know it's there. There's no question. So the worry is that the pipeline leadership pipeline might be drying up right? So how do we really kind of fill that pipeline? How do we make sure leaders are not feeling burnt out and overwhelmed?
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Emma Sarro: You know. How is this? How is this showing up for you? I mean, you speak to leaders all the time every day.
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Matt Summers: Yeah. And I think that's maybe the story here. Right? The story is, what are we hearing in in recent conversations? In 2025 from Chros, Ceos, Cfos Board members alike.
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Matt Summers: The leadership conundrum, Emma, that we're talking about here is not just at that executive level.
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Matt Summers: So the 1st thing I'd like to share is the story of that. This is leadership at scale broadly across all levels of the organization. Right? So when we say leadership, some people default to executive leadership or senior leadership. Oh, them! They're getting it wrong, right? Whereas it's really across the whole organization, whether you're an informal leader or a formal leader. These predictable human patterns we're seeing for those that take on the extra responsibility of leadership, Emma.
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Matt Summers: The burden is becoming more and more real, and the the weight that they carry is different this year than it was last year. And I think that's what I want to get into our conversation here today.
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Matt Summers: You know, Emma, we talked in 2020, right when Covid. I remember everything shut down in March of 2020, and then everything was virtual. It was mask mask central around the world.
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Matt Summers: And what we saw was this predictable pattern of people leaving organizations very quickly right based on their policies, of how leaders were communicating and how they were operating, whether it be effectively or ineffectively. And so a leadership perspective. What we saw in 2020 was this kind of this great disembarkment of leadership right into other organizations, or kind of putting a pause on
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Matt Summers: on what their careers would look like. Now fast forward to 2025. And what are we hearing from leaders? Well, executives are telling us that the trend they're seeing across industry is, and you'll read this in a lot of leadership books now, or academic papers or Harvard Business Review. They talk about this all the time, and it's this new notion of the great disillusionment.
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Emma Sarro: Oh!
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Matt Summers: Leadership.
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Matt Summers: you know. So, Emma, when I think about neuroscience in this space, there's a symbiotic relationship here. You know, there's something going on. If we lift up the hood of leadership leaders, brains, you know, when we think about the current reality that they face, you know, when you look at some of these statistics, folks, as you listen to our conversation here.
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Matt Summers: There are ways that we can address this notion of the great disillusionment, the drawing up of the pipeline for leaders. Right? We're not doing a great job. Organizations are not doing a great job at building that leadership pipeline at building leadership skills for now and for the future.
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Matt Summers: I think we are suffering from an experience bias here, Emma, and an experience bias in organizations of well, what's got us here is going to get us there. And that's just not the case anymore. Right? So for me, it's, you know, when we think about what we can do to extend leaders that olive branch? You know. How do we invest in their learning in a meaningful way?
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Matt Summers: But how do we do that with the brain in mind, Emma, that's kind of our conversation today. Right? How do we build those communication skills that really meet employees, team members projects where they're at when we talk about this real need for and and this has been a conversation, probably for the last decade. But this notion of agility and adaptability have never been more real in 2025 than it has ever been. Emma, back to you.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, I mean hearing you speak. I mean, I think a lot of these problems again. We've been bringing them up these challenges. They continue to be facing leadership. But how can we? How can we make sure that they're getting the learning they need while they're there, or before they take on the role and and the idea around learning means overwhelming numbers. Report that if organizations invest in their learning they'll stay, and this applies to leaders as well before they take on that.
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Emma Sarro: I mean, we, you know you take on a leadership role because you're great at what you've done right? And then, now you're leading a team, and you have all of these other responsibilities. How do I communicate in a way that drives performance? How do I have my one-on-ones? How do I have these conversations? Now? I'm their manager as opposed to their colleague. And this conversation is different, you know. And how do I face these problems that just become more
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Emma Sarro: and more complex. And this whole idea of complexity is coming up a lot now, too. Right? It's not just the challenges we faced 2 years ago. The challenges now have multiple factors. And now I have to look at the problem in a different way. So how can we now? This need for agility and adaptability is more true now than it ever was because of that that massively increased rate of change.
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Emma Sarro: Right? It's yeah. It's overwhelming.
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Matt Summers: So, Emma, you know, to build, I'm gonna pull on the thread that we're kind of, you know, really teasing here.
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Matt Summers: In my conversations with executive leaders, mid-level managers, frontline leaders, supervisors. It reminds me that the response we're seeing from them, you know, in the last 6 months of you know, kind of where their mindset is at right, and where their disillusionment around leadership and feeling unsupported by the organization is at.
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Matt Summers: It reminds me of the story of when I you know, before I joined Nli 9 years ago, before that, I used to work in healthcare, and so, working with physicians and charge. Head nurses charge head nurses or nurse managers. They'd be appointed because they've been a nurse for 30 years and think about any industry, you know. If you've been in service in that organization, you get promoted suddenly into a leadership role.
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Matt Summers: Those are very different skill sets. We all know that. But in 2025. How do you get? How do you accelerate a new leader's skill set, or somebody who's been a new leader is now taking more responsibility as a mid level manager. Those are different. Skill sets, too. Right? So how do I, you know, provide effective feedback? How do I generate real quality, high quality performance. That's what we're talking about today. So for me, it's like, how do we break that notion of
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Matt Summers: I'm just surviving. My eyes are above the water level right as a leader. And so what tends to happen is we see that leaders just build a culture of niceness.
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Matt Summers: Right. Isn't that a scary reality that we see in some organizations that we build a culture of niceness because we we want to continue to feel like we are valued, you know, and appreciated.
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Matt Summers: I mean connected to others in our organization. And yet how effective are we in elevating our performance. And I think that's the gap. It's like we default to building this culture of niceness. So we just kind of keep pushing everything under the water. But actually, we know that there's all this turbulence. So let's dig into that. Let's talk about how do we elevate leadership performance? But before we do that, why don't we hear from our audience? I'd love to actually dig in and ask everybody a question. Let's create some generative thinking in your brains. What does that mean.
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Matt Summers: So from neuroscience, generative thinking is when we get people to apply this conversation, this new language to their current real experience. Right? And so we all have neural networks where we have generative thinking that applies to our current day to day work. So if you think about yourself as a leader or leaders that you're supporting in your organization.
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Matt Summers: The question for all of you is as we check in with you is, you know, Emma and I are talking about this current reality in 2025, that leaders face some of the challenges and the gaps they have.
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Matt Summers: What's missing? What are you missing in your leadership? Or what are you seeing from leaders in your organization currently today? You know, what are the gaps there? What are you seeing based on what we're talking about here. So let's give everybody a chance to, you know. Spend the next 20 seconds on the keyboards. Let's see what shows up in the chat and see what themes we see.
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Emma Sarro: So interesting vision. That's a great answer. I think we've heard that in a while courage, anything plans.
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Matt Summers: Yeah, Emma, I'm seeing this. A lot of and you know, Emma, there's some responses in the chat here that are really unsurprising. But if I could categorize what I'm seeing so far, I'm seeing this notion of, or bucket or category of leadership, uncertainty.
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Matt Summers: Right? And you know, that's core to our conversation today. But you know, it's yeah. I think it's good to hear that that is a reality, and people are being honest here and being vulnerable, that yes, when we don't have clarity, our brains go into this. You know, this place of uncertainty in the default network. There, of course, is, then, this potential space of threat, right.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah. And a lot of this is really a lot of building strategies for their themselves. I think.
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Matt Summers: Thank you. Right?
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Emma Sarro: It's you know. How do I? How do I manage my day? How do I build self-regulation strategies? How do I take care of myself, which I think is really interesting. Given what we'll be talking about.
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Matt Summers: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, Emma, you know, 1st of all, to everybody who's joined us. Thank you for jumping into the the chat box here, you know, there's there's definitely a lot of gaps that we're seeing here. There are a lot of familiar categories. This notion of being overloaded cognitive overwhelm. You know, we've talked about this in previous live podcasts and your brain at work sessions, Emma. But that's something that, too. I think we should be into an address. Here today.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah.
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Matt Summers: Good, all right, folks. So thank you, for you know, engaging in some, you know, generative thinking what Emma and I are going to do. We're going to encourage you to read through other people's comments in the chat, too. Why?
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Matt Summers: Because it might. It might create some additional insightful thinking for you, because the science tells us that when we read the insights or the experiences of others, it can help us feel not only connected to others and their experience, but it can also generate different thinking for us. So we encourage you to do that throughout the session.
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Matt Summers: So, Emma, what I'd love to do is, I'd love to create some context for our conversation today. Let's talk a little bit about what we're seeing, what the research is showing us about the predictable human patterns. So industrial psychology and neuroscience are perfectly aligned here with the data. What is the data telling us? The data is telling us that leaders are operating in a very specific type of environment. And this is across multiple industries, right? And so we have an acronym. Let's share that with everyone.
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Matt Summers: So what you'll see here, folks, is an acronym that we've coined, based on the environment in which leaders are surviving and have been surviving in this kind of environment. We've talked about the Vuca world for many years.
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Matt Summers: but it's amplified this year even more so. Right? So what does Vuca stand for? So Vuca is highly volatile you talked about in the chat box. A lot of you said uncertain right? So a great deal of uncertainty, unpredictability. Right?
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Matt Summers: This C. Stands for M. I'm blanking here. C is.
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Matt Summers: what is the C stand for? I haven't had enough coffee this morning, complex, so highly complex. Right? So you're operating in this very complex environment, right? And the A is the ambiguous right?
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Matt Summers: So a lot of ambiguity that leaders face in their day-to-day delivery that impacts their performance. So then, the question is, what does that look like as a result of how they respond to that environment? Well, they respond based on predictable human behaviors, and because they're tired they're overwhelmed. They're resigned, and we can expect them to be feeling neglected. So let's peel back the onion here, Emma, what does that look like.
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Matt Summers: So tired is this notion of this compromising, constant, compromising their values and standards? Because, you know, they just see this this ongoing well, that's just the way things are done around here, even if I don't agree with it or align with it. Right? So that's exhausting. Is this tired experience there cognitively and emotionally.
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Matt Summers: There's a sense of overwhelm right? They're constantly competing with these priorities, the demands and capacity. And they're feeling torn and being pulled in multiple directions.
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Matt Summers: torn talks about this notion of feeling resigned. So I think this talks about the greater disillusionment. It's like resigned to the realities of what leadership is in 2025,
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Matt Summers: you know, with no real path or feeling that there's going to be a change or the sense of hope that I'll get the right resources. I'll get the right skills. I'll get access to education. I'll get access to funding, etc, right? So there's this resignation in that space. And then finally, this feeling of neglect, right like, Hey, I'm isolated from my organization as a leader
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Matt Summers: because I don't feel like I'm being paid attention to, or feeling heard by those in the organization who may have the ability to help but guess what they're having the same experience themselves as leaders. So what we see here typically, I mean, we see in parent systems theory here, Emma, that when organizations are operating in a Vuca world, and when employees are feeling torn in the way we're talking about here.
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Matt Summers: What happens here, Emma? We see this very predictable nature in leaders that they isolate themselves rather than integrating themselves with their peers, their direct reports, their leaders that they report to. And so this lack of integration
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Matt Summers: creates these gaps that we've heard from our listeners today, Emma, any any comments on, you know on torn, and what's showing up for you in our conversation here.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, I mean, a lot of this. Just makes me think their individuals are just developing these survival based
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Emma Sarro: strategies to to make it through, I mean, how do you prioritize? You might not get anything done right. And that's that's a survival tactic. You might, you know. You see, these missed or mismatched expectations you can't trust, you know, those decisions being made. Because, you know, decisions aren't really making any sense. And and you can imagine why the burnout is real
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Emma Sarro: and all based as a as a result of this and
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Emma Sarro: and it's a real it's it's a real symptom right. And and then nothing gets done. And then those individuals that you're leading you know, aren't able to be driven to get their work done either, so you can imagine why the pipeline is driving, drying up.
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Matt Summers: Yeah, so am I. This reminds me of a conversation I had 2 months ago with a Chro.
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Matt Summers: and as I was speaking to the Chro. This was a tech in the tech industry in the Us.
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Matt Summers: And Emma. They described this notion that their leaders were not only feeling disillusioned, but actually, it's almost like they were operating on automatic.
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Emma Sarro: Hmm.
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Matt Summers: So from a neuroscience perspective. Emma, you know I know you've talked about this. You've written about this at length. We talk about the default, mode network in the brain, right?
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Matt Summers: And this kind of automatic, unconscious limbic system that can dominate leaders, day-to-day operations. And really, I would say, dampen rather than amplify their performance. Right?
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Matt Summers: Yeah, so yeah, any thoughts on that. And as we think about that, that correlation to default mode network in the brain.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, I mean, individuals would just be defaulting to. You know those those like well instilled habits. And if those habits are aren't great habits, you know, avoiding, you know, just just working to get whatever they can get done to survive
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Emma Sarro: and and actually, what we talk about a lot is like, what? What kinds of good habits can we build? So that when you are feeling overwhelmed you can default to those, and those are still habits that can help you achieve your goals. So these habits that we're defaulting to that like threat based avoidance or threat based, you know, just kind of like getting by with whatever we can and survival mode that people are chatting about.
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Emma Sarro: That, you know, like nothing I do will actually matter. That feeling is kind of across the board when those expectations of others are not being met. You know I don't trust what my leaders are saying, their decisions that are being made. And so expectations are, you know, I can't trust them. And whatever I do doesn't matter anymore. That resign.
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Emma Sarro: So yeah, how better habits? Right? That would, feeling overwhelmed.
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Emma Sarro: Default to yeah.
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Matt Summers: That's a great segue, and that's like, you know, I could pay $20, because that's the perfect segue into like, what do we do about this right? And then I think that's what everyone's minds. Right? So we have. We have, we have, you know, close to a thousand listeners here today, and I'm sure all of them wondering. Okay, so we know that this is our reality because we face with they face it every day.
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Matt Summers: So how do we help leaders through neuroscience, Emma? Maybe you could talk a little bit about what are those habits you just referred to that we can instill as having not only new language, but instead of simple and easy to think about and apply habits that we have a clear point of view on Nli
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Matt Summers: in the clients that we partner with we consult with, and that we offer, you know, learning through. What does that look like? And I'll bring that up on screen. Maybe you can talk us through some of these. This kind of point of view, for the pillars of.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah. So what we've been finding is that you know, everyone, everyone wants to have some kind of like anchor, like, what are the like the most important things that will help facilitate other kinds of good habits and other behaviors. And what we've been finding like looking at the industry research, the neuroscience. Research is that there are some foundational
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Emma Sarro: cultures and foundational mindsets that individuals can kind of instill in themselves and role model with others that can kind of foster all of the other things we're looking for. So we talk a lot about growth mindset. And that's that's 1 of them. Growth mindset is a foundational mindset that can kind of open the doors to all of the other habits and behaviors that we want to build, and we'll talk like in a little more detail about that, but that also
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Emma Sarro: can help us understand the importance of psychological safety which we've been talking a lot about. We'll talk about it in depth next week. But the necessary robust debate that we can have with each other. How do we collaborate best to make decisions as a team? How do we make sure that we can bring our best selves, and others can bring their best selves to work
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Emma Sarro: the ability to take those social risks? And then how do we follow through which we know is
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Emma Sarro: like is necessary to getting things done and sharing and having expectations of others, and knowing they'll follow through and trusting in others. So these 3 things and research shows that they work together. They foster each other. So, you know, just starting with growth mindset. We know that growth mindset is critical for the brain to be able to improve over time and people that embrace a growth
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Emma Sarro: mindset see learning as as something they want to do. They see mistakes as something to learn from. They actually
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Emma Sarro: are rewarded in their brain by seeing where errors happen, and and rewarded by finding the solution. So it's such an interesting and such a powerful mindset to have what's coming up for you with growth, mindset.
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Matt Summers: Yeah. So, Emma, growth mindset's been around for decades. Right? It's nothing new, as you say. And folks, I'm noticing that some of you said that my microphone might sound a little quieter, so I'm going to project my voice here as if I'm in the room itself. So, Emma, to build on your comments around growth, mindset, psych safety and accountability.
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Matt Summers: You know, these are not new terms in general. At the same time, when I go back to growth mindset just this year. Right? So we're in April of 2025. Just this year, I've had multiple conversations with leaders who go. Yeah, I noticed that I constantly get stuck in this fixed mindset, like I can't change this right?
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Matt Summers: You know they're not applying that language. I think you know I'm not there yet, right? So just shifting to that growth, mindset language, that network of the medial prefrontal cortex, that frontal lobe so that we can access collaboration, insight generation problem solving executive function right? And then noticing that they're falling into that limbic system, that default, mode network that we mentioned earlier, which is kind of where that fixed mindset notion resides, and they said.
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Matt Summers: is, you know, they've read Carol Dweck's book Growth mindset. They've read our research and our papers, and yet they notice that what's driving their behavior is their human mess, you know. And so we all have to remind ourselves. You know, what are the moments that really matter. And I think this, you know, if you've got a pen, write this down.
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Matt Summers: you know the application for me, Emer is is is noticing the moment for growth and learning that opportunity at work day to day. Notice that moment, catch yourself in some default, mode network, thinking some fixed mindset patterns you might have
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Matt Summers: and just catch yourself and go. Okay, this is the moment. Right? So notice those moments that really matter where I can learn and grow in an area at work, and then shift right? And that's really the key for me is I have. I can have all the knowledge in the language.
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Matt Summers: but I can still be dominated by my old habits. Right? So so that's the 1st thing that shows up the second thing that shows up in those conversations. Emma is, if we want to drive human performance right as leaders. If we want leaders to be accountable more importantly, if we want leaders to build accountability at scale across the whole organization and projects teams, you know.
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Matt Summers: At large scale.
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Matt Summers: We can't expect accountability to be in place if people don't feel safe to think differently, to challenge the status quo, to feel connected, to feel safe, right? And and so we talk about this notion of like punitive accountability in organizations, right? And so people don't feel psychologically safe. So we've got to start there. Once we get the mindset right? We've got to get that site safety. So there is this kind of sequential linear approach, because we see organizations really trying to tackle accountability head on.
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Matt Summers: And the 1st question we ask often ask their senior leadership and their H, you know, Hr teams is, how safe do people feel in your culture? Right? If you're on your team.
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Matt Summers: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, what's interesting is is. And I think this is one mistake that organizations some sometimes make is.
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Emma Sarro: That psychological safety and accountability are counteractive when, in fact, they actually need each other. And there's research that supports this. And this is research that comes from Amy Amundsen that showed that teams that show high levels of psychological safety and high levels of accountability towards each other do perform better than when either of these factors were alone. They are synergistic, absolutely, Peter.
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Emma Sarro: So they foster each other. And with each of these
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Emma Sarro: you also need a growth mindset. How can you expect to follow through on the work that you're doing, and be accountable to your leaders or to others, or to your team? If you aren't able to share and learn from your mistakes and follow through on those mistakes as opposed to blaming others. Right? So that blame culture that we talk about being a part of punitive accountability is also a fixed mindset
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Emma Sarro: right? As so these these 3 pillars necessarily go together and fostering each of them, will help in building the other.
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Matt Summers: Yeah. Yeah. Well, said Emma, thank you. That's symbiotic relationship, right? That interplay between all 3. And it's not like you get growth mindset right, and then you just forget about it, and then pay. Shine a bright light on psych safety. And then, okay, that's in place. Now, we don't have to, you know. Pay attention to that at all. Now, we're going to focus only on accountability. It's this constant weep, right? I mean you and I.
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Matt Summers: We talk about this. You know the neuroscience of coherence. You have to create a build, a very clear, coherent weave between Gpa right growth, mindset psych safety and accountability.
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Matt Summers: So this, this is a really great map for organizations and leaders to think about in their day-to-day practice. Not just once a year in a classroom, right.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, absolutely. It's a constant. It's a constant thing to foster. Just like, you know. Sometimes people talk about psychological safety. It's kind of the soil that fosters other things, and you have to constantly be nurturing that soil so that everything else that's growing out of it grows well right, and is, fosters, Foster well and lives for a long time. So that's that's kind of the way it is for each of these we need to continuously work on them and role model these behaviors. Yeah.
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Matt Summers: You know I'm having a bit of an insight in our conversation, and for those of you listening, this is not like prescribed. This is happening live in the moment, you know, I think, about our last 3 years new Leadership Institute summits. Some have been virtual. Some have been in New York in in person each year when we run the summit, and we have thousands of people attend. Emma. We talk about this this concept of
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Matt Summers: not not just coherence, but this notion of agility right? This notion of being human right? I think Gpa, is that in the moment, day to day me checking in as a leader with myself, and and they are half of me. Here is, you know, I think Gpa. Is such a simple way for leaders to think about it in their day-to-day practice? Right.
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Matt Summers: am I, you know, with my mindset? And how am I building growth, mindset opportunities for others? Right? What's my language? Am I putting people in a towards state to make them feel psychologically safe?
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Matt Summers: Am I going 1st as a leader to share my mistakes? Right? Right to to have others in my team feel like they can feel safe to experiment, make mistakes share with the team what they learn from them and then build that performance because I'm elevating my my accountability and and allowing others to drive the accountability. Yeah, yeah, it's really interesting.
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Emma Sarro: Absolutely.
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Matt Summers: Yeah. Okay? So, Emma, we're at this point of, we've talked a little bit, some. The you know, what's the current state in 2025 for leaders, in uncertainty, in complexity, in volatility.
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Matt Summers: We've talked a little bit about the torn model and the predictable human behaviors. We're seeing where leaders are feeling really isolated rather than the goal of getting them integrated right across the with the organization.
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Matt Summers: We've talked about some of the, you know, pillars of leadership through growth, mindset, psych safety and accountability for a way for our listeners to think about to really like support our leaders.
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Matt Summers: what we do in the market. Right? We we partner, you know, with, you know. You know, the top 30% of fortune. 500 companies we partner with you know, meet small medium, large title organizations globally across multiple industries. But what's what's our approach to helping solve for these realities? And getting Gpa, the pillars of leadership
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Matt Summers: activated because we need skills. We need clear habits to get Gpa alive and well in leadership practice every day. So people are probably wondering, like, okay, Gpa is really interesting. I love this idea. But how do I activate that? You know, in my leaders and or in my own leadership? So, Emma, let's talk a little bit about that.
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Matt Summers: So maybe. Why don't I tell the story of what need is, and and how it came to be Emma? And then we'll dig into the science, because I'd love to hear your voice on kind of the underpinning neuroscience behind it.
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Matt Summers: So folks for those of you who have, you know, have been long term listeners. You would have heard about our leap program because it's something that's been, you know, in development over the last 24 months. But since we launched it last year, we've continued, and, as you know.
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Matt Summers: we have a large internal project team of neuroscientists, instructional designers, facilitators working on this. It's an iterative process, right? So the leadership landscape in 2025 is very different to the leadership landscape of 2024. And so we've evolved lead.
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Matt Summers: you know, leveraging new technology, like artificial intelligence, to help with coaching leaders in the space. But the question is, how do we apply the neuroscience of effective management. So we built lead. And when we heard back from Chros, Ceos, mid-level managers, frontline managers, and where those opportunities lie for 2025.
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Matt Summers: And what are the skills they need for the future, too? Right? And so that's what we're trying to solve for is not just the current need, but for the future needs, too. So what it really kind of solves for, and what we're seeing, and what I want you as listeners to think about is the gaps that you mentioned at the beginning of the session. Go back to those, and what we're trying to do is try and close that gap right in a very practical way through science. So the goal is, we want to help organizations who are looking to adapt faster in 2025,
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Matt Summers: with the skills that are needed this year and in the future. So we're forecasting this year. And you know, next 2 to 3 years ahead. This is really helpful for organizations that feel that they are dispersed in nature by the construct or structure of their organization and their geography, and also maybe their return back to work policies, you know, or their hybrid policies of work. And then finally, also.
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Matt Summers: not just talking to the senior level of leadership or the frontline level of leadership, but really, to all levels of people managers so executive level here. And we'll talk about those levels in a moment, Emma. But you know, I think this is really trying to address and meet meet organizations where they're at rather than Hey, we think this is where you're at. But really having.
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Matt Summers: you know, gather the data, follow. The science is what we say. Right, follow the data, follow follow the research.
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Matt Summers: So. But let's let's talk about what does this look like for you? Maybe you could tell us a little bit about this
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Matt Summers: this slide, and and I'll just create some placements for our brain. What are we looking at here? So we both need out to be really simple. And we do everything in groups of threes, because it's easy for the brain to recall and so we created what we call 3 modules. And you know I talk about these as being kind of 3 learning buckets, but each module is broken up into the 1st module of manage myself right? So we have to be able to, as leaders.
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Matt Summers: look inwards to identify our current state, manage our, you know, our optimize, our cognitive abilities. Capacity quality of thinking, to elevate our personal performance. Right
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Matt Summers: module. 2, then builds on, manage self and the skills and the habits from that. And that really then helps you as a leader, to learn new skills for 2025 to to mobilize others. Right? So how can you really connect, efficiently, set the right course, inspire great work as you partner
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Matt Summers: with others, and then building on that. It's how, then, we build that momentum collectively as teams and as an organization to really elevate performance in organizations and in teams to drive the results that we need
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Matt Summers: from our from others. So how do we make it safe? How do we solve problems faster? How do we stay agile.
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Matt Summers: Emma? I'm gonna hand it over to you because you really were at the center of some of the science that drives these 3
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Matt Summers: modules and the habits associated. Do you mind just telling us? Why don't we break it down module by module? Can you tell us a little bit about some of the science behind manage myself. And you know where we're trying to optimize our brains for leaders, regular only emotions as a leader and sustain our own good thinking as a leader in the moments that matter.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, yeah, I mean, so I think the 1st thing that that comes up and it's really speaking back to everything that you all had dropped in the chat earlier. A lot of this, a lot of the struggle that leaders and managers are facing is just how do I manage myself before I go in and work with others. I mean developing strategies. To kind of put your mask on before others is kind of the
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Emma Sarro: theme here, and these strategies. You can then role model for others as well. I mean learning the basic idea of how do I? How do I prioritize? How do I focus at work like knowing the limits of our ability, our brains ability to focus. How can I set my day up so that I'm doing certain kinds of work in certain parts of the day when I'm able to focus best and other kinds of work later, and then being able to bring that to your team and
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Emma Sarro: develop those emotional strategies that help you face difficult situations and then and show up for your team in a way that is steady and stable.
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Emma Sarro: This will help you both at work and at home. I mean thinking about all the social interactions that we face as leaders. It's incredibly emotional and and being under threat, being under pressure overwhelm. It's incredibly emotional. So being able to do that and then setting yourself up and developing healthy brain strategies for yourself like, how do I break my day up so that I can have more insights or take some downtime that's necessary so that I
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Emma Sarro: can focus better. So everything that happens and manage myself, I think, is the biggest area that managers and leaders miss out on, because we jump right into what's needed at the moment who needs us. How do I help my team when you really need to develop those strategies first? st So this is something that I would say, all managers, no matter, their experience may just need like a refresher on, even if you've been in it for years.
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Emma Sarro: And then all of the strategies we bring to mobilize others? Those how do I have those conversations, and how do I have the one on ones, the difficult conversations, the goal setting conversations? There are so many different
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Emma Sarro: one on one interactions that we as managers and leaders, need to have that we kind of break down. And this is what's happening in this conversation to each of our brains. How do I make sure I'm giving feedback? That's usable. How do I have that feedback conversation in a way that that works for me as well, and actually gets the job done. So focusing on those one on one interactions and then bringing that to kind of like a larger group scenario.
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Emma Sarro: So creating the environments, how do I create an environment for team decisions? How do I create an environment for the agility piece which a lot of a lot of what's coming up now and in the chat as well is like all of the problems being able to adapt. How can I create that agility within my organization? So we kind of bring all those strategies. A lot of the same science is woven throughout in different ways.
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Emma Sarro: So you are able to kind of build on that understanding. And but yeah, so I think the way we worked it out kind of like makes sense. Given the way the brain is set up. And within each of these habits there's many different skills that we kind of like map out for you all. So there are many things for leaders, no matter your experience, really to kind of like, refresh and learn here.
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Matt Summers: Yeah, you know, Emma, as I listen to your description here of these 3 modules, I I'm reminded of my own leadership journey, you know. So I go back 20 years ago, when I first, st you know, got promoted and was in this new management roles. And you know Green Manager.
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Emma Sarro: Okay.
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Matt Summers: Nobody ever, you know, I went on, a bunch of leadership courses, but nobody ever taught me
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Matt Summers: or told me that it's a critical skill as a leader at any level in the organization, to think about your own thinking, right to check in with yourself. Right? So when I think about that manage myself. How often do leaders do that right? Is there a frequency and a quality of fluency that they do, that I would argue? No. And in my conversations with leaders. You know what their predictable response here Emma is. I don't have time to think about my own experience.
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Emma Sarro: Lately.
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Matt Summers: And so it's such a critical in the 1st step. And so, if I really want to manage the balance of my cognitive overwhelm, which leaders, you know, describe frequently, Emma, I gotta check in with myself. Right? So what's the frequency of check-in? So if I'm checking in multiple times a day.
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Matt Summers: and I want to treat, elevate the outcome of, you know, driving my performance. I've got to check in with myself around. You know what? What are my downwards right? And what? What's my capacity?
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Matt Summers: And so that's such a critical 1st step. The other story in the application of workplace for mobilize others, too, is, we talked about leaders feeling so isolated, Emma. So in that isolated state, how frequently are they having those important conversations in the moments of a project that really matter to really connect at a level for learning growth, clarity, right? And so there's this predictable lack of clarity. As a result.
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Matt Summers: people don't know what the right course is. So they make it up, or they fill in the gaps right? And they're not feeling very inspired to do great work. And so you know, we are responsible as leaders to to mobilize others, leveraging these very specific habits right? And then, when we think about driving results, I think about accountability here. Right? And so, you know, you've talked about in previous podcasts. And you've written about this at length.
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Matt Summers: this neural synchrony, right? That we need to build as leaders. This like it is, you know. So if you're my manager, Emma, you're trying to build some momentum in my performance, and in my accountability. You know it's it's really your responsibility as a leader, as I'm your direct report to make sure that the picture you have in your mind of the deliverable is the same picture that I hold in my mind right. And how often are those pictures different?
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Matt Summers: I would say full time right.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, the clarity is is critical. Right? And that's that's always been critical for leaders is the is being able to communicate well right with anyone with their direct reports, and and making sure everyone is on the same page, and so often that falls off.
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Matt Summers: Absolutely, Emma, let's move forward and build on this conversation. The question is then, as we think, about lead, and these 3 modules, with these, supporting 9 habits that easy to recall, easy to plan the moment in the flow of work. Who does this apply? For? I mentioned that this is for all levels of leaders. Why do we build it this way, Emma?
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Matt Summers: So our design thinking here is, we can activate these new habits at any level. So it's you know, Emma, we talk about culture change at scale in organizations, you know. One habit at a time across the whole organization. Right? CEO, Dr. David Rock talks about this notion in multiple conversations. And so we've applied that science that approach
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Matt Summers: to shifting culture for leaders at every level. Right? So if you have senior leaders and early managers and mid level managers, all using the same sets of habits and similar language. Boy, does that build connection, coherence, alignment, and elevate performance. Right? That's what the research tells us.
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Matt Summers: So you know. So what we're doing now, Emma, maybe I'll tell the story of a current client. We have a truly global client 1 billion dollar client
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Matt Summers: that we're currently working with. And what we did is we, we met with their top 20 executives. And we ran a 2 h executive briefing because they normally are typically short on time. And we did an in person with them. We can also do this virtually, but we gave them the same language, same sets of habits at that high level, so they have the understanding. They have the habits in place and supporting materials if they want to dig in.
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Matt Summers: you know. So we typically, that's how we'll run that that same language and sets of habits from lead at that level mid-level managers. What we'll run then, typically, Emma, is what we call hives, right? These high impact virtual experiences where people will meet, you know, 3 month learning journey. Highly interactive, facilitated kind of cohort based learning.
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Matt Summers: Where we use. And you know, AI and technology in that process for interaction, for insight generation for alternative challenge, thinking, etc.
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Matt Summers: As you kind of adopt and practice those habits for those mid level managers, so they get a deeper dive in habits, and they walk away with applying those habits in between each of those 3 hive sessions to go and apply to their learning partners using AI technology like our Niles tool. Right? So for those of you who have heard of Niles, but for those of you haven't is our neuro, intelligent leadership enhancement system. It's our own
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Matt Summers: AI technology from Nli that helps these leaders apply and practice and get coaching and advice on how to practice these habits in the real world.
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Matt Summers: And then finally, Emma, you know this early managers right? It's like, so what they get access to is this autonomous, self-directed learning habit activation platform. And this is pretty cool, because it's a 6 month journey
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Matt Summers: right where it's digital learning, social learning on the platform. It's AI coaching. It's in-person coaching. So it's really layers of constant contact with that same habit, that same language, the same application and coaching to shape and form the habits right? So you know, this is a pretty neat way to engage the leadership
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Matt Summers: environment at scale where everybody shares that language. Any comments here, Emma, before we engage the audience on this.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, I think this is a real, great way of just thinking how we're kind of like evolving the way that we work with organizations based on what time they really have for learning and making sure this this learning is in the flow of work for individuals that might be might have more experience, but might need a refresher, but also that that similar language that shared language that Matt's talking about is so key for
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Emma Sarro: everyone's on board with the same habits, the same. Oh, we're thinking about growth, mindset or building psychological safety, or having this robust debate or the accountability delegation. All of those words that we're bringing in and the underlying science, our scarf model, our seats, model those kinds of things that is incredibly powerful and wanting to kind of change culture and and build a strong culture.
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Matt Summers: Yeah, Emma, this might be a good time, I think, just to pull the audience right? So let's hear from folks, you know, we as they, you know. So for those of you that are listening today, we have, you know, close to a thousand people live.
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Matt Summers: Emory, it might be interesting to hear. You know, where are their needs and their gaps, and you know, what? What can some of the science help to close those gaps and solve for
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Matt Summers: so I'm going to invite a poll on screen here, folks, you know, let's hear from you. How can we support you? What can some of the science do to solve? What are the areas of interest you might have just hit those poll answers. Let us know, so that we can.
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Matt Summers: You know, really pay attention to some ongoing conversations, right? So we can connect with you beyond this session to kind of really just explore what our current realities, and how the science and these habits help to to solve. For some of these gaps your leaders are facing.
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Matt Summers: We'll just give you a few more seconds here.
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Matt Summers: Alright, thank you.
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Matt Summers: Alright. So thank you for for digging in there, folks. Thank you for letting us know. We'll keep that poll question up just for a little longer, as we kind of dig into a little bit more context. So you can understand our application here.
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Matt Summers: So, Emma, you know
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Matt Summers: what we know about the brain and learning is that we need to space and chunk it out right? And so with that neuroscience based brain-based approach to adult learning and really activating the hippocampus, which is that learning librarian center in the middle of the brain?
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Matt Summers: Emmett, you know, why is this an effective way for learning. Why, why would 15 min per week, not 15 min per day, but 15 min per week be effective over 2 months per module over 6 month period for those new line managers who are doing this on the habit activation platform.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, I mean, well, first, st people don't have a lot of time. We want to compel individuals to want to jump in and do the learning. But really, we're hoping that outside of those 15 min individuals are are practicing those habits. Habits build with repetition right? And focus. So we're not trying to overload with all of the habits all at once, all of the skills. All at once you learn a skill, you practice it, and that's the way to embed that into your
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Emma Sarro: into your default behavior, and then spacing over time, which is a science-based approach to
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Emma Sarro: to helping learn and embed habits over time. So this is just kind of working with your schedule, but also in the science of learning and beyond learning, and really how you actually embed a habit in into your behavior.
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Matt Summers: Yeah, Emma, for me. When we were designing this, and I said to you, I said to David, I said to, you know a bunch of our internal team, you know. 15 min per week is not enough, you know. But when we think about then how that gets integrated, this is what that journey looks like. Right? So, Emma, this is kind of exciting when we think about, you know, they learn about a habit. Right? Let's take module one right, which is really focused on self.
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Matt Summers: right and managing self. It's this, how do I optimize my brain? Well, there's 3 skills that I just need to remember. And I can record in the moment not 20 skills, because that's overwhelming. Right? So, my hippocampus, you know, learning librarian, can you know, then, encode those skills in my brain.
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Matt Summers: And then I can recall them quickly and easily and fluently, and practicing on my leadership. The beauty of this is that each of those skills build on each other. They don't operate in isolation.
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Matt Summers: So that's build with the coherence of the brain's network. And we give those leadership nudges between each of those habits over time, right? Which is really neat. And what we've really done here is giving them the opportunity and priming in those leadership nudges to go out and now apply it. We give them a 1 page, you know, one page, simple map, right, a guide on what to say, what not to say as they apply those skills with their teams and their peers.
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Matt Summers: The other great thing that really stands out for me here, too, is what we found is that that's not enough right, Emma. And so just, you know, e-learning is not getting it done in its current state. And so what we've done is then added, once they complete a module, then they have a live virtual habit activation lab that's run by moi master facilitator, which really brings the conversations to light, amplifies the insights, and then, hearing stories about mistakes, they made lessons, learned experimentation.
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Matt Summers: those skills in meaningful ways to really coach and reshape thinking for those habits and skills to be implemented in meaningful ways. Anything standing out for you on this approach we're taking.
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Emma Sarro: Other than this is really speaking to the way that we build habits, you know, having those like reminders expanding your learning to different experiences, hearing from that social piece, hearing from your leader hearing from others. And then the habit activation lab is that social learning which we know is is incredibly powerful for kind of reengaging the brain, reengaging the learning and applying it to different scenarios. Yeah.
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Matt Summers: Yeah. Getting a badge on an e-learning platform is not getting it done either. Right.
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Emma Sarro: No, it's not enough.
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Matt Summers: That's not the solution, right? So you know what we've seen with our clients who who are playing in that social space of insight. So we have this this insight space. In fact, you know, why don't I share the next slide? Because you can see what this looks like? You know the journey here is, you know, in that 15 min journey
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Matt Summers: we activate insights at multiple intervals here with the brain in mind. And we start with storytelling right? Isn't that the most powerful way, folks, you know? As you listen to this, you know, I think about all the mentors in my career. It was the stories that they shared about their leadership where I took those nuggets had insights took a skill, you know, and I'll give you an example right whenever I'm facilitating to an executive group, or I'm coaching one on one to CEO.
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Matt Summers: You know, I share one of these skills, and it's you know, it's insight, generating for the listener, too, of that leader. You know, Emma, you've heard me say this many times, but often when you know if you're leading a group, and you ask somebody a question or a group a question, what do leaders typically do once, as soon as they've asked the question and nobody responds, what do we do as leaders?
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Matt Summers: We fill the space right? Because it's uncomfortable. Nobody's talking.
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Matt Summers: But what a mentor a former CEO in healthcare a decade ago told me, was Matt.
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Matt Summers: When you ask somebody a question or a group of question, you know, as a leader.
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Matt Summers: allow them to do their best, thinking. Trust that they have the quality of thinking there and allow the silence to do the heavy lifting.
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Matt Summers: And that was a real great leadership nugget for me right now, why do I share that story? Because storytelling is so powerful? So we built these characters right, Emma, and there's a character story in each one of these 15 min journeys that speaks to that specific habit and skill, and applying it in the workplace. Then you learn a little bit of what Emma and the you know, the neuroscientists in our team have put together to understand what's going on, you know, as you lift up the hood and look inside our
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Matt Summers: brains. What's going on as you are applying this skill in the brain? And how does that affect us in the practical application of it? Right? And then you do that socially on the platform.
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Matt Summers: So you get to try it. You externalize it as you bring those social engagements to life right? It's pretty neat, and so we have these insights corners where people are putting in their insights and shared insights, activate insights, and others as they read others. It's pretty neat process. Right? So there's this kind of coherent cyclical process of constant integration of these of the language from the skills so that folks can easily recall
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Matt Summers: right? Emma, I wonder if it's helpful just to
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Matt Summers: talk about what it actually looks like. So when when somebody actually logs into that habit activation platform for that you know if the mass of your leadership is typically your frontline managers, right? If you have the highest volume of managers, typically
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Matt Summers: in a leadership construct in organizations as they're going through this habit activation platform. And we've had mid level. Managers go through this and love it too. So it applies there. But you essentially get access on the top left hand corner to that habit. Hub, right? So we go through all the skills we've been talking about and the habits.
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Matt Summers: you get access to a resource library where you get summaries and deeper dives, and one page is really neat, based on in the moment access. So if I've taken the program. And 6 months later I go. Oh, yeah, there was this really neat piece on
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Matt Summers: how to help others generate insights rather than trying to force an insight into their brain. Well, what do we know, Emma? You can't give somebody an insight that physiologically in the brain doesn't work that way
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Matt Summers: you can ask curious questions to prime their thinking so that they can have an insight in their own brain. Right? And so, if I'm a leader needing that skill in the moment, as I'm prepping for feedback conversation or a performance based conversation with somebody or a team, I can access that resource library in the moment and put a 1 page guide on how to, you know. Use a science-based approach and those habits effectively.
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Matt Summers: And there's that social corner on the bottom left hand side. So you can share insights, ask questions, connect. And what's really neat about this 4th component is Niles. I talked about Niles earlier. It's our neuro intelligent coach and advisor
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Matt Summers: that we've evolved. And what we've taken is all this, this neuroscience from, you know, 25 years of research at Nli, all of our models like the scarf model, the seeds model for mitigating human bias. You know our new research on accountability. All of that we put into our vector database for this AI tech.
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Matt Summers: And it's like having your own coach with all that language integrated. It's really cool. So we have a bunch of managers right now, multiple sectors globally, who are leveraging this on a daily basis as they prepare for a meeting or starting a project or want to build accountability, want to build psych want to activate growth mindset. And they have a coach telling them. And that just sits in their pockets. It's pretty cool, right. And Tony, from our team has just put a connection or a link there
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Matt Summers: for Niles. If you are interested in Niles and having that in your pocket. Just click on that link in the chat. Thank you. All right.
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Matt Summers: I'm noticing where we are on time, Emma. And you know, I think, just as we kind of wrap up what lead is really trying to drive this year in 2025, I think.
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Matt Summers: Ultimately, we're trying to get practical right?
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Matt Summers: What we found is that a lot of organizations said their current e-learning platforms are too theoretical and not priming the muscles in the brain for best practice, right and application.
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Matt Summers: And so, you know, getting people to set clear goals and communicate that with their managers and their peers right? So getting out of isolation and into integration. Right? How do we build effective managers and leadership through lead? It's getting them to really externalize it in their environment. Emma, what's the best way the human brain learns you said it earlier. It's in the flow of work. It's in the social context, right with others. Any comments on the practical application of lead. Here.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, well, just I mean everything that we put into it is really how the brain learns best. We've added social. We've added generation. So you're generating your answers. You're reflecting on stories which is a great way to learn. You're given the brain science and deep into the science, if you really want to. So kind of. Do explore your curiosity if you'd like. So I think we've kind of tapped into all the best ways to learn and change your brain. And this is how it shows up. Yeah.
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Matt Summers: Yeah, and then bringing it to life, of course, is is Niles in in the way that it can act as 2 2 functions really one is, you know, it can coach you as you're trying to solve for something, or you're trying to build a skill.
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Matt Summers: The other thing we've seen a lot of leaders. I had an executive leader who's also a board member who is in healthcare in North America. Tell me that they used. They got coached by Niles. This was just last month. They got coached by Niles. You know, on, on strategic thinking.
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Matt Summers: right? So leveraging the scarf model to create towards states so that we can activate alternative thinking how to use what we call the taps model for those of you who are familiar with the taps model. It's this model we use for getting people getting others to think and generate insights in their own brains. So Niles helped them coach them into how to do that practically with fellow board members. A fascinating application in the day to day. Use of work.
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Matt Summers: So I you know I would say that, you know, as we think about the practical application, what's really neat here. And I think we've kind of talked about this. I won't spend much time here to Emma.
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Matt Summers: The activation labs are critical for social dialogue. Right? I think it's in the moment practicing hearing how people bring their application their stories, and where it really works or didn't work, as they, you know, go through each of the habits and the skills and how they see them being connected. So how do I build Psyche? Once I've got growth mindset in place, and how do I then build accountability and continue to come back to checking on the safety and towards responses really, really important. Right?
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Matt Summers: Alright, just given where we are on time. And I'm gonna pass it over to you. I think that kind of concludes our conversation for today, but I know that folks are interested in what's our next topic for your brain at work, so I'll hand it over to you to come.
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Emma Sarro: Yeah, thanks, Matt. So next week I'll be back. I'll be here with our other expert in psychological safety. Dr. Bridget Lynn, and we're going to be talking, having a conversation about psychological safety and the application, and how to build it. So I hope you all join that, and I know we have something coming up in a couple of weeks
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Emma Sarro: in New York City, and David will be there half day. Mini Summit, on challenging conversations that should be really good. So please, there is a QR code there, and I will now pass it back over to Erin. I really appreciate this conversation, Matt. This is great.
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Matt Summers: Yeah, thanks, Emma, love these dialogues and folks for those of you have dialed in hopefully. You saw great value in sharing some new or different perspectives through science that can help us get leaders to where they need to be this year. And in the future. Emma thanks so much, Erin over to you.
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Erin Wickham: Thank you, Matt, and thank you, Emma. That was a great conversation. Our team is adding some links in the chat. Both the registration link for next week's psychological safety. Your brain at work live. And if you'd like to attend the New York City Mini Summit, that link is in there as well. We'll also send everything in a follow up email later today. That kind of brings us to the end of today's conversation. If you enjoyed today's conversation. Thank you for being. Here
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Erin Wickham: you can find all of our past episodes. Wherever you find your podcasts of choice, so apple podcasts, Google
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Erin Wickham: spotify wherever you want to find them. We're online there, but otherwise we will see you next Friday. Thank you for being here with us.