Join us for an enlightening webinar that delves into the art and science of brain-based event design for learning, intertwined with the rich history of the NeuroLeadership Summit. This session is a must-attend for event planners, educators, and anyone interested in crafting impactful learning experiences using neuroscience principles. Webinar Highlights: Brain-Based Design Principles: Learn how to apply neuroscience to create engaging and effective learning environments that cater to the brain’s natural processing capabilities. Evolution of the NeuroLeadership Summit: Explore the journey of the NeuroLeadership Summit, from its inception to becoming a globally recognized platform for groundbreaking ideas in leadership and neuroscience. Interactive Q&A: Engage with our experts, Dr. David Rock and other thought leaders, who have pioneered these concepts at the Summit over the years. Whether you’re looking to enhance your event planning skills or gain insights into the evolution of neuroscience in leadership, this webinar will provide you with valuable strategies and stories from the forefront of neuroleadership.
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Shelby Wilburn: Welcome back to another week of your brain at work. Live! I'm your host, Shelby Wilburn, for regulars. We're happy to have you back as always, and for our newcomers. Welcome. We're excited to have you here with us today. For the 1st time in this episode we'll explore the art and science of brain based event design for large scale learning. And we'll also share the history of our own neuro leadership summit. Now, as I quickly share some housekeeping notes drop in the comments box or chat where you're joining in from today.
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Shelby Wilburn: We are recording today's session. So if you're interested in a replay, be on the lookout for an email later today that email is also going to include a survey for feedback as well as a number of resources that are aligned with today's conversation. We suggest putting your phone on. Do not disturb quitting out of your email and messaging apps. So you can really get the most out of today's discussion. And it's also going to help with your audio and video quality.
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Shelby Wilburn: And lastly, we love interaction. So feel free to share your thoughts and comments with us in the chat. Now, to get the show underway, I'm going to introduce our speakers.
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Shelby Wilburn: Our 1st guest coined the term neuro leadership when he co-founded Nli over 2 decades ago with a professional doctorate, 4 successful books under his name, and a multitude of bylines ranging from the Harvard Business Review to the New York Times, and many more a warm welcome for the co-founder and CEO of the Neuro Leadership Institute. Dr. David Rock. Thanks for being here today, David.
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Dr. David Rock: Shelby. Good to be here. Hi! From New York City.
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Shelby Wilburn: Yeah. And our moderator for today holds a Phd in neuroscience from New York University. She leads the research team at the Neuro Leadership Institute, where she focuses on translating cognitive and social neuroscience into actionable solutions for organizations. A warm welcome to the senior Director of Research at Nli. Dr. Emma Saro. Thanks for being here today, Emma and I will pass it over to you.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Thanks, Shelby. Hello! Again, David, how are you doing today?
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Dr. David Rock: Doing well. Happy. Friday.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Happy Friday. Yeah, it's 1 of the 1st long weeks for a lot of us right back in the swing of things.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah. So well, last week, if anyone was here, we we discussed the brain based design. Everything that we've we've learned to. You know how how the brain learn best when we design any kind of learning program designing for habit, building impact design for for insights, integrating social learning into the design across all delivery methods. So from virtual to hybrid to in person.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: and if you missed it, you might want to download it. It was kind of the basis for the next 2 episodes of our of your brain at work. Live so for anyone that was there. We'd love to hear what your insights were coming out of that. I know it was full of insights for me. All of the research that we put into how we design our learning. Has been years in the making. So I'd love to pass it to you, too, David. What? What came out of the session for you.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, I'd love to hear from folks who are there in the chat. Kind of what what hit you most, or what you had the biggest insight around. Maybe the team can put in the chat the link, if it's I don't know if it's ready yet. Sometimes takes more than a week, but a link to that one. If we have it. Otherwise it'll be in the podcast seasons. Shortly. Look, I I think for me. It's just it's it's an area that is so
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Dr. David Rock: much bias. And in particular, it's an expedience bias, right? One of the big 5.
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Dr. David Rock: We developed in the seeds. Models expedience buys. It's sort of like it feels right. It must be true. Just kind of going with what feels right, you know, going with the gut and and I think
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Dr. David Rock: the you know, the right way to to design learning is is really follow the science experiment, follow the data.
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Dr. David Rock: And I think it's just an area where there's such huge breakthroughs possible in doing that. And it's interesting. We'll talk about this a bit more. What's interesting but sort of post pandemic. There is an opportunity to kind of start with more of a blank slate and start fresh.
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Dr. David Rock: And we're seeing more of that happening with learning, which is, you know, which is encouraging. But we also see a lot of companies, just, you know, hearing. Oh, we want to be back in person. So they're just going back to, you know, workshops, because people are asking for them.
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Dr. David Rock: And not really being thoughtful about the the way to really embed learning, you know, from from a science perspective. So
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Dr. David Rock: yeah, just that. That was it for me, anyone else in the chat? It was a few comments coming in.
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Dr. David Rock: in the chat. But the yeah, really, you're solving for attention from Nick. It's it's really all about solving for attention. And we'll talk a bit more about that today as we talk about larger events. But you're really solving for attention and solving, for insight and solving for action.
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Dr. David Rock: It's really 3 things attention, insight and action. And the outcome of all that is, you know, new habits. If you can get attention if you can turn those that attention to insight, you can get people to take action on those insights, you know, broadly speaking, that's how you drive behavior change. And now you've got something really there. But no one sort of thinks like that. They're solving, for, you know, all sorts of other things. They're not solving for attention. They're not solving for insight. They're not solving for action. They're solving for other things.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah. Yeah. And what struck me was just that one of the things that one of the comments that's in the chat, just the consistent value of the ages model, which is true every every time we dive back into the research we find that this these 4 pillars are still the main 4 pillars that that we need to design for learning best. And what struck me is that it really we can be incredibly efficient with our with our learning, the time that we really need to be spent learning something is actually very
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Dr. Emma Sarro: small. The time that that we actually can be spent spending learning is is so limited, based on our our attention span, but we spend so much time trying to fill every single piece of information into a session that we actually work against the way the brain is learning. So we we do ourselves a disservice unless we spend a little bit of time upfront, just making sure those 4 pillars, those 4 boxes are checked.
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Dr. David Rock: Ages. Yeah, I sort of. I think the way learning's learning is done is, everyone just has this big expedience. By so far we've got half a day. How do we fill it? Right as opposed to? We've got these habits, we want to be. How do we build them?
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Dr. David Rock: And you? You end up with a really different answer. You might only need, you know, 45 min together in person, and actually have a much more powerful experience. If you did a really powerful 45 min, and then, you know, send people off to do really, you know important things and come back the next week for another 45, you know so much better than just starting with you know, we need half a day.
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Dr. David Rock: So I think it's a lot a lot of biases in there, and you know it's a great opportunity to start with with new one. That's a funny one from Liz. A miserable training experiences are ageless ones. Yeah, with no, no ages. Very good. So
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Dr. David Rock: this, you know, it's an it's an interesting time talking about blank slates.
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Dr. David Rock: it's sort of post pandemic. We're starting to see companies coming back to larger leadership retreats. And certainly there are industry conferences that are coming back. But I'm talking more about sort of the the, you know medium to larger companies are saying, Hey, let's get our people together sometimes for the 1st time in years, or maybe the second time now. But there's definitely a swing back to like. Let's bring people together for these larger events. And it's a wonderful opportunity when you haven't done it for a few years to actually.
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Dr. David Rock: you know, have a bit of the clarity of distance and rethink it. But we're still seeing a lot of companies kind of go back to the old ways of doing things which is really a shame. But I think it's a it's a really interesting opportunity that we are seeing a lot more of these larger events.
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Dr. David Rock: And that's what we wanted to talk about today. And I think you pulled up some data on this? What did you? What did you find.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, well, we know this is important. And I think what David saying is absolutely right. We really need to. You think about this or reframe this as an opportunity. So how can we build these better because we know that organizations, budgets are increasing significantly for events, whether they're for their you know, other attendees or in house.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: We know that the numbers are going to be increasing. That's predicted to increase at least 10% over the next year for attendees, and in person events are also increasing. So we'll be talking about all different kinds of events. We know that virtual events can be just as powerful as in person, but a lot of the in person. Events are are increasing. Over 85% of organizations are planning to have either the same or more
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Dr. Emma Sarro: in-person events this coming year.
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Dr. David Rock: Right. And I guess what I wanted to focus on today is is the common theme is larger events. Now, whether they're virtual or they're in person, we'll probably focus a bit more on in person. But we can. We can definitely touch on some of the principles for virtual. You can do really successful, larger, virtual events. We've been doing them but a little bit more on the in person, given that trend, and and like really what it takes to run successful in person events. I think that's a good place to start. Where do? Where do you want to start? There, Emma?
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, well, I mean, I I would say that we have a lot of evidence that we know how to do this. Well, we do it every year, and we will touch on this at the very end. But we we design the most brain friendly events, and I'm a bit biased. But I think that we we do this intentionally, as we plan from start to finish to make sure that all of the pieces of ages and everything else that we're learning is integrated into the design. But let's just start from the complete opposite end. So what would you say, David, are the major pitfalls that you see, as you attend these conferences.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah. So you know, I had this this privilege of you know, designing our event every year, which we've done since 2,007, and every year we literally go back to the drawing board and say, How can we make it better? So you know, we've had this this amazing opportunity to innovate, to, you know, to follow the science experiment and follow the data, you know, for years and years, you know, now decades. So we've had that, plus I get invited a lot to speak at, and, you know, attend and speak at these larger events. I mean, you know, in the fall it's every week.
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Dr. David Rock: But it's it's dozens and dozens of events every year. And then, thirdly,
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Dr. David Rock: we're actually often called on to design these
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Dr. David Rock: by by our partner clients. Where we'll we'll we'll we'll, you know, we'll be a partner in actually designing the whole concept. Sometimes we'll get in and help execute as well. But you know we do a lot of the real design work, and we end up designing really, really differently. I'll give you some examples. Towards the end of this this chapter, but sort of watching all those 3, plus
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Dr. David Rock: like like understanding the science. There's a couple of things that jump out like one of the things. I think that organizations get wrong. And let's let's just imagine a leadership retreat of, say, 200 people, right? You've got 200 leaders. Maybe you've got 10,000 employees, a thousand managers, and you're sort of trying to gather the top 200 right? The the C-suite and one or 2 levels down. You know. What I see.
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Dr. David Rock: 1st of all, is, everyone designs these
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Dr. David Rock: for what happens on the stage instead of what happens in the seat
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Dr. David Rock: right? And and I remember having this big big insight about this. I went to an event that was actually about learning.
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Dr. David Rock: and I won't mention the company or whatever. But it was a. It was a sort of an industry event. It wasn't run by one company, but it was an event about learning. And this organization had lots and lots of resources and lots of bells and whistles and lots of amazing names and amazing technology. And all this stuff. And the stage was like, really special
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Dr. David Rock: you know, the people on the stage was special. The lighting on the stage was special, the technology behind the screen. And it was like, this was like, as far as you could go, pretty much, you know, like really amazing sound library. But the in the audience, basically, the lights were way down.
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Dr. David Rock: And like you were literally kind of in a theater.
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Dr. David Rock: right? But you're in the dark for 2 whole days, right? Sitting with people you really wish you could talk to and learn from.
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Dr. David Rock: and you couldn't.
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Dr. David Rock: And I think it was an accident. And it's an accident. I see happening a lot that people design for the experience on the stage, and sort of keep going further and further and further and further in that direction, without realizing that the the value of these is really what happens in the seat.
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Dr. David Rock: Right? And I'm not saying you don't want amazing stuff on stage. But what you really want to do is design for the for the participants experience in the seat. And I I walk around conferences honestly every single month like I go to a conference, and I and I talk to the lighting people, and I get them to turn the lights up in the main room. It's constant. They're like, are you sure you you know the stage won't stand out as much? I'm like, I'm sure. Can we turn the lights up? And I'm constantly, constantly doing that.
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Dr. David Rock: So I mean, that's just a sort of funny thing. But the reality is, if you're designing for what's happening in the seats, you design really, really differently.
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Dr. David Rock: you you! Now. It's not just the lights up. It's the way people are interacting. It's how you seat them. It's how many you seat them. It's all sorts of things. But just conceptually, you want to think about the person in the seat and how they're gonna learn the most. Not how do we, you know, keep them watching? Basically television live? For, you know, 6 h or 8 h or something. So that's that's 1 sort of, you know. One thing, I think, that we really have wrong. The second thing that we have wrong is, we don't sort of follow the natural energy
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Dr. David Rock: of people. And and maybe I I see this because I go to so many events. And I understand what I'm seeing. But there's some some very, very basic things like in the morning you get much better attention. You can do much harder things. You know you
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Dr. David Rock: you don't need half hour breaks. Unless you've got large, large number of people you can do a lot with, you know, focus people intensely. 15 min, break focus people intensely 15 min. Break right, move them around, keep it going.
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Dr. David Rock: Once you get to lunch, there's this, this starts to get a little Tmi, but once you get to lunch you have no option but to give people a bio break 60 min after lunch, like you have to, unless.
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Dr. David Rock: you know, unless the room is full of marines who can self control in some way. And particularly if the audience is more female versus male. There's some, you know, slight variation there in in all that. But but you, you must give people a bio. Break 60 min at the most. 75 is no way around. And these conferences that, like, you know, go for 90 min, you know, 2 h like after lunch, you just you just see everyone peeling out right? So that's just an example. But how do you follow? Sort of the natural energy
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Dr. David Rock: of these things, I think, is the is the big question right? And the the other thing is is
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Dr. David Rock: I don't know. Sizzler is making a comeback right? I heard they're coming back right. There's something to that like you got a sizzler. I remember the 1st time as a kid, I saw Sizzler. I was like, Wow, so many options right? And then you can't like eat again for 2 days, because your stomachs just
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Dr. David Rock: in terrible shape, right? But the this attraction of this incredible Smorgasbord of options right?
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Dr. David Rock: compare that to say a tasting menu that's really thoughtfully put together where you know things fit together in the right order, the right foods in the right order. So they, you know you're having the proteins and the carbohydrates in the right order. All this kind of stuff. So so what I see a lot is is they're trying to make the whole experience look amazing to attract people.
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Dr. David Rock: and the way they do that is, they pack the schedule with lots of people.
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Dr. David Rock: Lots of speakers right? Not many breaks
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Dr. David Rock: and
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Dr. David Rock: and and they often like, give people like breakouts like, Go off there. If you're interested in that, go off there, if you but if you if you're trying to bring people together, create a shared experience. The last thing you want is people learning different things
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Dr. David Rock: right? What you want is to really design for coherence.
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Dr. David Rock: not for kind of Smorgasbord, you. So it's it's a different concept. But you're designing. So every piece that you add over the day or 2 days or 3 days makes everything else that you've introduced fit together. Better in some way, right, or set up the opportunity for that. So you're kind of trying to design. So everything fits together beautifully. And everyone has this shared experience. And everyone has these Meta insights
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Dr. David Rock: of stuff. So so those are sort of the pet peeves that I see designing for the stage instead of the seat, not following the natural flow of energy of things and and designing for the Smorgasbord, rather than designing for coherence and shared experience. Those are 3 things might be interesting to hear from the group. What are your what are your sort of pet peeves? What do you see out there?
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Dr. David Rock: As you, I'm sure all of you listening. Attend a lot of events. What are some of the
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Dr. David Rock: sort of pet peeves you have when you design events.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, I know I I love the comment from June and I was actually what was coming up for me as you were talking through those 3 major pitfalls was my own experience with you designing last year it was in person, and the 1st thing that you you said as you walked into the main room was, oh, the tables aren't organized in the right way. The tables for the audience have to be organized with this number of chairs. And that's so important. And this is
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Dr. Emma Sarro: all based on, you know, the ideal number of individuals in a table, and and where the the rows of seats were, and how many are ideal? What that looks like before even turning to the stage. And I thought that it makes so much sense, thinking about thinking about science.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, let's get to that in a minute. Let's talk about sort of some of the principles you can design for rather than just my complaints. But any other complaints from the audience about kind of what you see out there. Thanks, Liz. Yeah. Just speakers talking at you without discussion. QA. Long sessions at any time of day. Thanks. June. Yeah. What are the other pet peeves that you see in conferences? I'll tell you one of mine. It's it's a funny one. And I I fix this problem honestly. Once a week in conference season I'll go to an event. There'll be this giant line of people waiting for lunch. Lunch is pretty short.
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Dr. David Rock: This giant line, like trying to get to the food tables and the food tables will be up against the wall, and I'll just pull the food food tables out.
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Dr. David Rock: So there's 2 sides to the table. I do it almost every week. It's like, can someone just look at the system and like.
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Dr. David Rock: make that change so that like
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Dr. David Rock: people can eat twice as quickly.
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Dr. David Rock: It's it's really funny. Thanks, Amy. So yeah, just, you know, too much content. You know all that. So so yeah, let's talk about what you should be designing for.
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Dr. David Rock: You know, in in what you should be designing for sort of building on what I was saying. But the 1st thing is.
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Dr. David Rock: how do you design for maximum attention, maximizing attention right?
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Dr. David Rock: And there's some rules of thumb, and if you've attended our summit, you'll see we do this pretty religiously, like 1520 min at the absolute most 25
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Dr. David Rock: for for an idea or a concept, an introduction, a point of view, a speaker, a story whatever, and then a little moment to shift gears. We call that a digestion break.
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Dr. David Rock: And we did this based on real research when we published ages that we saw that about 20 min is the maximum. You can really focus closely on something before the brain really ties.
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Dr. David Rock: We've been experimenting with it. It works really well, 1520, 25 at the most
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Dr. David Rock: like it, and just a just a moment to kind of catch up and let the brain just sort of digest. And that could be lots of different things at the summit. We just literally say, Hey, turn to the person next to you and talk about what you've heard so far for 5 min. Right? Don't need 15 min. Don't need 20 min. Don't need 10 min.
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Dr. David Rock: Can do a lot in 4, 5, 6 min.
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Dr. David Rock: Digestion of the ideas, or ask questions or have a panelist sort of discuss things
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Dr. David Rock: really interesting, as you sort of shift topics.
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Dr. David Rock: The attention needs sort of time to like turn down the networks that you've activated, and then turn up new networks. Right? So if you're talking about, you know apples and talking all about orchards right now you're gonna talk about cows. You sort of got to stop thinking about orchards right now start thinking about grass and fields. And like, you've got to dampen down one network and bring the other one up. And this these sort of little
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Dr. David Rock: segue moments between really helpful so we always present in chapters, we we try to make it no more than 3 chapters and have these digestion bedsight. That's an example of solving for attention. Another example is there's a magic magic number of people at a table, and that magic magic number is 4,
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Dr. David Rock: and the reason for that is every person can't kind of hide. You can't sort of be on your phone the whole time, because you got, you know, 3 people that feel like they're watching you.
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Dr. David Rock: You can pair up with one person and another person, and you can do a 4 way conversation
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Dr. David Rock: where everyone gets a chance to speak in just 5 min. So you got all these options? And there's enough novelty and sort of interest to, you know, really pay attention, but not too much.
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Dr. David Rock: that it takes a long time. Soon as you make it 6 it changes the whole dynamic. Everyone pays a lot less attention.
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Dr. David Rock: Now you can. You know we had an event of 600 we broke into 150 tables of 4. The client thought we were crazy, but it was amazing. Like the the attention in the room, on average, across 600 people like everyone was in the dialogues. If you'd made that 6, you know, tables of 6 table of 8
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Dr. David Rock: just watch the attention actually, plummet. It's really interesting if you sort of study that. So table size, table size, right? You want smallish tables. So you're not like far away from each other.
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Dr. David Rock: So if you're basically solving for attention, the second thing you're solving for you probably can guess is insight.
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Dr. David Rock: Right? You want to. You want to solve for inside. Now, that means like giving people time to reflect right during sessions between sessions.
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Dr. David Rock: you know the way we do it. We'll have us. We'll have a a session, and then a a break, right, a proper break, and then a session, and then lunch, and then a session, and then afternoon tea, and then a session, and then, you know, drinks, and then and then, being originally Australian, more drinks and more drinks. No, I'm joking, but we'll we'll like, after each kind of big idea, an opportunity to mingle with people and discuss the ideas.
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Dr. David Rock: Huge difference.
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Dr. David Rock: right? Huge, huge difference when you do that.
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Dr. David Rock: So you're you're solving for insight. So 1st thing is, you're solving for attention. The second thing you're solving for insight
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Dr. David Rock: lots of different ways.
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Dr. David Rock: And then the 3rd thing that you're solving for is is really action right? And and how do you get
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Dr. David Rock: the you know the group to really do something meaningful with this now depends. Sometimes these events are just like sharing strategy, brainstorming building relationships. You know. So that's okay. But maybe you want to get it. Get the group together 30 days later. Give them an activity they got to report out on. You can do that virtually right. The ideal leadership retreat is a kick off to something that people really have to do like pretty soon.
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Dr. David Rock: So if there's learning involved, the retreat, kicks off a learning experience that they're going to go straight into like in a week or 2 weeks, or a month at the most. Are they gonna kick it off. Get started. Really, that's ideal. And you know, if you're introducing a new strategy.
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Dr. David Rock: probably, you know, maybe once a month for the next 3 months you get in the group together to talk about how they're working on that strategy. So it should never be a stand alone thing unless it's just building relationships.
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Dr. David Rock: But very, very few leadership retreats are just building relationships. So 3 things to solve for attention, insight, action similar to small events, right? The outcome of all that is change is, you know, new habits, organizational change. But those those are really the big things. But I'm doing a lot of talking. Emma, what do you think? What what should we be solving for.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: I I think you're absolutely right. And I and one thing that was coming up when you were talking about the solving for attention and the group size is by adding those little those little segments in for people to move around and chat. You're also helping them to kind of like. Wake up a bit those you can. It allows you to have those long 75 min sessions because and get all of the information out that you want to, because you've allowed individuals to kind of move around just physically turn to their the person next to them.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: and and kind of engage a little bit. It makes the time go by so much faster, and it allows you to cover all of this information while generating insights that that social component so all of those things are kind of solving each other. And it allows you to have those nice long sessions where you have multiple people talking panel or whatever it is that you want to have those keynote sessions.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah.
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Dr. David Rock: I mean, I'll give you a little bit of math.
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Dr. David Rock: So a lot of the insights that happens at these events is actually from other people, right or other people having insights about the content. And it gives you an insight, right or other, or sharing knowledge or building relationships like it's it's definitely about things to do with like connecting with other people. So you go to a normal conference. Let's say a 2 day conference a 2 day retreat right? You're at a table of 8.
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Dr. David Rock: Is really common, because sort of the the caterers are solving for cost, and you know, minimal tables. And you know, so that so you solve for 8. So basically at 8, you'll talk a little bit to the person next to you, and maybe the other side. It's very hard to talk to anyone. You're really beyond that, and you'll stay at that table all day and right, and the next day you might sit with different people. So the chances are on average, you got a hundred people right? They're each meeting 2 others over 2 days. So that's 4 others.
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Dr. David Rock: Right? So so they're having like conversations during the sessions with 4 other people in 2 days right now, put them in groups of 4, and every time there's a break. Mix up those groups of 4
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Dr. David Rock: right? And you got 4 chunks of these a day. So you got 4 threes are 12 times 2 is 24.
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Dr. David Rock: So now you've got 24 meaningful interactions with other participants per person.
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Dr. David Rock: right? Compared to 4,
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Dr. David Rock: right? 24 meaningful interactions with other people, and they're meaningful like the whole session. You're actually discussing the session. You're getting to know each other, you know, each one of those 24 you've spent like an hour with discussing the ideas, you know, on and off.
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Dr. David Rock: So so now you've you've multiplied by 6 without changing costs, really, or anything else. You've just multiplied by 6. The number of quality connections people have had just by putting me in tables of 4,
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Dr. David Rock: by by mixing those tables up, you know, each time you break and giving people really good activities between, and you can still produce, you know, do a huge amount of content. So there's there's ways to do this. We do some work in designing these for partners. I've given you sort of some of the principles, but you know we come in and design these for partners. If you're, you know, interested in that
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Dr. David Rock: Just put design, large events and your company name. We'll reach out to you, have a chat and see if there's an opportunity to help you with that. But you know we do. We do that work quite a bit, and I think I think we do a really pretty good job of of.
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Dr. David Rock: you know, attention, insight, and action. The thing I'll just say is your your team will freak out when they 1st see it, because it'll look really different to what they're kind of used to. But anyway, let's let's go on. Emma, where did you want to go next?
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Well, the only thing I just wanted to just jump in there, really quick. And and just to remind everyone is why we design these in person events. So much of it is around the networking piece that you get as a result. So so when you think back to the events that were really powerful for you? Aren't they also the events that you have all these great interactions? So by just adding those little pieces in your your networking ideas. You're learning more. And you leave there with all these great
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Dr. Emma Sarro: social memories as well, which are all business related. So it and and there's tons of research around what happens after an event that you can like help to grow the memories even better. So this this kind of sets you up to do all of that as well.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, you just you just reminded me of sort of I I should probably tell the story. It was a probably one of the most fun projects. We worked on we helped Microsoft build their their leadership model, create clarity, generate energy, deliver success. It's about 10 years ago now, and they asked us to help design their their leadership launch of this to to somewhere like 6 700 people in in Seattle. And we saw the program initially. And it was like all these different speakers and all these different tracks. And you know,
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Dr. David Rock: and you know, big tables and all this stuff. And we, you know, we gave them this new briefing, and at 1st they just like they were like, there's no way we can do this. This is just so different to anything we've done.
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Dr. David Rock: we're like, no tables are 4 like you'll see it. It's just it's completely different. And so we designed it, you know, based on some of these ideas with tables of 4, you know, mixing them around. And it was amazing. These were, I remember, like watching the room when we did it. I was there. And like these are people who are always on their phone. They warned me, like these people are just going to be on their phone and distracted and on their laptops. Hardly anyone
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Dr. David Rock: was on their phone or on their laptops. Because they couldn't, because they were with people, and they knew they were about to do a exercise with people, and they knew they were going to have to like dig in. And so we had really high attention.
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Dr. David Rock: In in the group really, really high attention. And it they actually said it was the highest rated event they've ever done in their history. I think we got 4.7 out of 5. But all we did was design for attention
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Dr. David Rock: and insight and action. It was like half a day on the on, create clarity half a day, on generate energy, half a day on deliver success. And, you know, speakers around those things and activities and exercises. And it was, you know, super successful. So I think there are really different ways of doing things. Any anyone have any questions. There's 1 from Joanna that's interesting. Any other questions coming in that you wanted to address that? I think Joanna's question is good.
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Dr. David Rock: And you know. What about people with social anxiety? You definitely need to explain the strategy upfront to people and
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Dr. David Rock: and let them know why you're doing this. And also the math is that one person can stay at the table right? 3 other people have to move. So you know, if you're if you're someone who really wants to stay in the same position, you know, for the day. Then, you know, you could be that person who stays at that table. Other people move around
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Dr. David Rock: and of course you can give people a chance to opt out. You know, if you really don't want to be part of that, you know. There's a couple of tables over in the back corner for people who don't want to be part of that, for whatever reason, right? So you can always have the opt out. But I think you want to make it the principle that you do this. And then the people that you know. For whatever reason, don't want to be part of that, they can.
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Dr. David Rock: They cannot. You know there are folks who are just like managing a disaster and need to have their laptop open the whole time. They're in the back corner. That tables that's not disturbing others. Those kinds of things. You're always kind of accounting for any other questions. Coming up from folks.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, no, I think this is great. And I think we could. We could talk about this. I mean, it must be amazing to actually see the change, that positive social pressure that that you add by kind of reducing the size of the group, and, you know, like kind of encouraging them to talk to each other, and in the end it might have felt a little bit anxiety inducing and a bit. You know I'm a little nervous to have to talk to this person. I don't know this person, maybe, and then in the end, the rating is is completely different.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, I mean, we wrote a whole piece on this in fast company, that that, like learning needs to be a little bit uncomfortable for it to work like learning. That's just completely comfortable is not learning. You're not. You're not getting the emotions, the E in ages.
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Dr. David Rock: Right? So you want you want some learning that you know you want some emotion. And just that feeling of Oh, I've got to talk to these new people. It can be, you know, strong enough emotion to really embed insights. But you know, really, half of the value of these events comes from what's on the stage, and a good half of it, sometimes more is from meeting other people, their insights, their relationships, their connections. And so why would you want to walk away from 2 days with, you know, 4 good connections when you could walk out with, you know, 24
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Dr. David Rock: and if you're talking about a hundred people that's like, you know, 400 versus 2,400
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Dr. David Rock: connections really, really, really big difference in the connectivity within that team. So it it really starts to to add up.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Absolutely. And now with everything, you know, if we're if we're starting from scratch and the influx of AI and technology, I mean, how would you, in an in person event, even integrate some of these new tools to maybe increase the social interaction, increase the networking after after the.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, there's some interesting things. I mean, we we. So we're going back to our summit, being virtual again this year for a bunch of reasons. We did it in person last year. We've done it virtually before we're doing another virtual one this year, you know, we're expecting more than a thousand participants. Maybe closer to 2 you know. Virtually so. We we think a lot about, how do you engage? Virtually? We also think about, how do you do? A hybrid event right where you've got virtual and in person there's some interesting challenges with that, because
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Dr. David Rock: you kind of don't want people in the room on a device, because as soon as they're on a device they're on it, they're on everything right.
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Dr. David Rock: So sort of really tricky. You're trying to keep people in the room off devices and people out of the room interacting.
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Dr. David Rock: So we end up with a team of folks who are supporting the digital side. And the people on the digital side are still actually doing. Digestion breaks right. But they're doing different things. Different activities in those digestion breaks, or or we have sort of a commentator.
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Dr. David Rock: You know, taking questions and interacting with folks in the dig, you know, in that digital side. So we're sort of reproducing the experience in a similar way. But not exactly the same way.
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Dr. David Rock: The interesting challenges. I'll I will just say, you know, during the pandemic a lot of folks experimented with leadership retreats virtually.
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Dr. David Rock: and I believe there are ways to do them that really do deliver immense value. It's different to in person. There's no question you're not getting as much of the relationship benefits. But you can do it radically cheaper.
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Dr. David Rock: radically cheaper. Like, you know, something might cost 2 million dollars. You can do, for you know, 50,000 right? Radically cheaper. And you can also have radically more creativity and and and insight. And and so you can actually really increase attention, insight and action
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Dr. David Rock: if you design it well. But what it looks like is more like, you know, 3 days of events with, you know, 90 min in the morning, 90 min in the afternoon, you know, for 3 days right? Which ends up adding up and you know. So you're not doing like a whole day virtual event. But there's ways of doing virtual events, or even over 2 weeks, you know. Tuesday and Thursday
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Dr. David Rock: hour, half of the morning hour and half the afternoon. Come back, you know, on the Thursday give people actions in between. Do it again the next week. There are upsides to that kind of virtual design. Even if it's a thousand people, you can do that with 1,000 people tremendous upsides
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Dr. David Rock: to designing like that
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Dr. David Rock: where you're really going in and working on something together, and that you actually couldn't get in person. So you don't get the the relationship benefits. But you can actually get the creativity and insights and actions benefits in ways that are really unexpected. So I'll just I'll just throw that out there. It's there's some different things you can do.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah. So leverage the benefits, if you can. Right, it might just look different.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Well. So I think we should switch, focus a little bit and talk about our own summit, right? Because we have a great story about how we've how we built built it. The inception, how long we've been doing it. So let's talk about our own event and where it started, how it started! What did it look like.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, I mean, look to be honest. At this. It started out of complete self interest. I wanted to get the scientists I'd been talking to and meeting with all around the world. I wanted to get them together and and see what happened. Cause I'd I'd been meeting with all these amazing neuroscientists. This was like between 2,003 and 2,007, you know, over 3 or 4 years. I was meeting with these incredible people who who never talk to each other.
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Dr. David Rock: Didn't even know each other existed. Mostly, you know, someone studying you know, decision making versus someone studying creativity versus someone studying. You know, emotion, someone studying emotional regulation, someone studying attention. You know, all these people, I thought, would be really, really amazing
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Dr. David Rock: to get these scientists together.
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Dr. David Rock: and sort of see what happened if we talked about leadership. And so the 1st summit was in 2,007. It was sponsored by a business school called Chimba, which is a study abroad University in Italy.
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Dr. David Rock: Our ringleb there and then. The team there do amazing work with with students, and we. So we ran this 1st conference. And I thought it would be really, really amazing to get, you know, these scientists together and and see what happened. And and then I realized we needed some business leaders there to sort of help pay for it
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Dr. David Rock: right? We needed some people to buy tickets to help, you know fund it. And what happened was interesting was we got the scientists there together, and what was amazing was that they argued fiercely and disliked each other fiercely, and no connections happened between the scientists really of any meaning like there was no collaborations or any sort of ideas between them. The scientists, of course, were their normal academic selves arguing, but what was fascinating was the connections between the business leaders and the scientists and sort of what emerged out of it.
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Dr. David Rock: and what emerged out of it was, you know, from that 1st
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Dr. David Rock: summit in 2,007, which we have, by the way, on, on video, on on HD video, we filmed. It was an amazing event.
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Dr. David Rock: What happened out of that 1st one was like the birth of the field of neuro leadership, and you know, business week covered it, and all these magazines covered it. And we got all this media sort of by accident. And then we ended up.
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Dr. David Rock: You know, I ended up trying to get someone else to run it the next year, because it was a lot of work, and we couldn't find anyone else to run it. So we started running it in 2,008. We made this ridiculous decision to run one in Sydney and London and and New York nearly killed us. But it was really really helpful.
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Dr. David Rock: And it, it's from there we sort of started to move it around. But the 1st few summits were very much about sort of getting the the right scientists along to kind of contribute their ideas. So you know Marco Yacobone on on mirror neurons. And you know, Matt Lieberman on Social Learning, and Kevin Oxner on on self regulation, and Amy Anson on, on you know, overall prefrontal function. And we had all these amazing amazing speakers come and and talk to us.
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Dr. David Rock: For for that 1st sort of really 10 years or so of the summit. It's kind of building a library of insights and thoughts, and in parallel we started publishing the journal in 2,008
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Dr. David Rock: which is where scarf was 1st published, and and all this so so sort of the journal and the summit kind of came together. We continue to, you know, to do both.
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Dr. David Rock: But it really evolved they, I think one of the really really interesting moments was
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Dr. David Rock: or more important moments was
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Dr. David Rock: we moved to summit around. So we did New York one year. Then we did San Francisco, and then we did somewhere else, and and I. I ran into Warren Bennis, who's who was, you know, one of the most prolific and influential leadership authors of you know, the last 100 years, and I ran into him while he was obviously still alive and in la! At 1 point
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Dr. David Rock: at a, at a meeting of something, and I was telling him what we're doing. He was like, wow! I'd really love to come to that event
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Dr. David Rock: and be part of that. But I'm like 84. I don't get on planes anymore.
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Dr. David Rock: It's really sad. I can't come to this event. I'm like, you know, what would you come if I like
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Dr. David Rock: if we hosted it in. La, would you come? He's like, yeah, absolutely. I'll be. I'll be there. And so we basically the next year ran the event in La, just so that Warren Bennetts could be there.
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Dr. David Rock: We ran it on a use at a Ucla site, and there's a lot of great scientists at Ucla. You know Matt Liebman, Naomi Eisenberger, and many others, and
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Dr. David Rock: and we ran the event. And what happened was during one of Naomi's sessions. She studied social or she was studying social pleasure at the time.
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Dr. David Rock: In the brain during one of her sessions. Basically, he took out he, he basically took the mic
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Dr. David Rock: from the presenters. Say, Excuse me, I want the mic. And he took the mic, and he started basically peppering Naomi with questions about the relevance of the science. So she'd been talking for like 1520 min. He's like, Hold on, just just hold on!
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Dr. David Rock: What does this mean for leaders. Right? What does this mean for me? What does this mean? For, like my Internet, like, just start asking these questions. And they started having this conversation that went on for like 10 min.
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Dr. David Rock: and then he's like, Okay, I'm good. You can keep going now. And she talked for another 1520 min, and he's like, Excuse me, I want the mic again.
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Dr. David Rock: and and everyone looked over at me. I went. Yep, give him the mic again.
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Dr. David Rock: and he did it again, right? And we we just like that. Wow! That's really really useful rather than like, you know, a scientist talking for 45, 50 min, and then 10 min of QA.
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Dr. David Rock: We're like, wouldn't it be better if they present an idea? And then we have some time to discuss it right and so literally from that moment on. Because the rest of us that that summit we we did that from that moment on we've designed every single event following that principle
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Dr. David Rock: of, you know, call it the Warren Venice principle of like an idea, and then a chance to discuss it. And then we sort of understood the science of it as we published ages, I think just the next year. So so that was, you know, interesting. We've we've run them in Boston. We had some amazing folks from mit
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Dr. David Rock: you know Ellen Langer, and we had the the folks studying honest signals, Sandy Pentland and we run it in San Francisco quite a few times with all sorts of really amazing presenters. But we landed it back in New York. We said, it's going to be in New York, or it's going to be virtual
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Dr. David Rock: And every year we've innovated and tried to make it better and better and better.
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Dr. David Rock: And, Emma, I know you're running this one. You've been running the last couple doing an amazing job.
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Dr. David Rock: On this. But you know our goal is the strongest possible insights. So obviously, we're solving for attention. But we're also solving for insights
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Dr. David Rock: and and helping people have the biggest insights. And I think
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Dr. David Rock: my most
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Dr. David Rock: important moment at the end of a summit is, we'll literally give people a scale. An insight scale we call the Eureka scale. You know, level 5 is a life changing moment. That's going to change the way you see the world. And absolutely, you know, you'll be able to track it back in 20 years and say, that's the moment that change, you know. And so we ask people, you know how many people had a level? 5. How many had a level. 4.
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Dr. David Rock: A level 4 is like a very, very strong insight that you're absolutely going to act on, and has, you know, real impact in the world, but you might not know it in 20 years.
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Dr. David Rock: And so we actually track how many level 4, and every 5 insights and and every summit. There's a pile of level 5 insights and a huge huge number of level 4. And that's you know, that's what makes it worthwhile is is really seeing the impact that we're having. So we know those insights extremely likely to, you know, go out and and create change. So anyway, that's the history of the summit. Do you want to share? I think you've got a slide you can share. We can sort of talk through what the plan is this year. A little bit.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, yeah, I can. I can absolutely share
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Dr. David Rock: You know, I was talking about the downside and upside of Virtual. You know the upside of virtual is you can have, like whole teams join for much cheaper. You can, you know, if you're from an organization, you can have your whole team join this wherever they are in the world, and we can get the exact right scientists and business leaders to be part of this. We're out, you know, flying people around. So we end up with a, you know, actual, better program and more people.
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Dr. David Rock: and so there's there's definitely some upsides to to virtual. That's that are really powerful. It's true you don't get the drinks, you know, you don't get the same social benefits and and some of that. But you actually get other things that can be really amazing. So yeah, talk us through, Emma, the the plan. This is Amia. Do you want to show Amia? Did you want to show the North American one.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Well, this one right here shows kind of well, this is the perspective of you in North America, right? The time.
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Dr. David Rock: This is like.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Here are the eastern eastern coast. But we do have some a whole, a Maya session, 2 days of a Maya sessions and a Maya actually kicks us off.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: So you on the east coast could actually attend. It's it starts at 9 am. On the east coast, so you could attend the Maya, the the true kick off, and then it goes into our own sessions, and then at the end, Apac kind of jumps in at the end, and if you really wanted to, you could stay on all day and into around 10 o'clock at night on on the east coast. If you wanted to stay on for.
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Dr. David Rock: Don't do it, don't do it. But we did something crazy. We've designed 3 different virtual live, real time events. We've designed a European program, an Asia Pacific program and a North American program. So, and each group has, like a coherent experience and then dovetails into the other. It's really mind bending trying to understand it. The brain doesn't seem to be built for thinking about these things. Well, but this is the North American timeline. Right? We start at 11 Am. Eastern
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Dr. David Rock: to be nice for the Pacific Coast people. So they're not getting up at 5, and and that's that's the design of it. So yeah, talk us through the the architecture. What you know, what's what's a keynote? What's the foundation? All those things.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: So we usually bracket a single day with with a keynote. So keynote is a longer session. We normally have more more individuals in the panel, talking usually a little higher level, thinking, you know, talking about like the major challenges and how it impacts like globally or organizations. And we touch on on these topics throughout the day as well. So we'll we'll talk about how some of the content that we're talking about in the 1st
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Dr. Emma Sarro: keynote is going to come up later in the day or the next day, and then at the very end of the whole, the whole experience we kind of end with. You know what were your biggest insights, you know, pulling from what we've learned throughout the 2 days and then going forward. So we we do have a method to how we design this. We we bring up. We ask questions of coherence. You know. What are they learning? In the beginning of the session? And the beginning of the whole experience. And how does that emotion
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Dr. Emma Sarro: change throughout the course of of the 2 day experience? So we think about that. And you know, making sure that a leadership session is not overlapping with another leadership session, so that someone who's truly interested just in leadership or in talent and performance or diversity. Equity. Inclusion doesn't, don't have to choose between these sessions.
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Dr. David Rock: Minimize the Fomo. That's very important. And and I love that. You know, we we did this about 3 or 4 years ago, and it's really starting to work. We've got these foundation sessions. So if you're new to Nli, you want to understand our point of view on growth, mindset, on scarf on seeds.
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Dr. David Rock: on insight. There are these foundation sessions that you can go to, and of course, you know, to avoid Fomo, the participants will get recordings of everything afterwards, in case they sort of miss one. But it's always better for your attention to be at the sort of big ones you like live. So there are foundation sessions. They're from the lab sessions, which are kind of updates on the science for people who really want to know the science. We've got one on scarf. We've got one on
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Dr. David Rock: neurodiversity. We've got one on burnout. So you know the big topics we've got the from the field sessions which is understanding how this work happens in companies. So you've got Dei you know, culture and leadership, talent performance. And then the big sessions are trends and breakthroughs. So what's new? We're, we're launching new research on accountability.
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Dr. David Rock: on leadership skills, on success in Dei, on on technology and humanity.
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Dr. David Rock: all sorts of things. And then.
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Dr. David Rock: So what happens is the start of the day and the end of the day. Everyone's together in keynotes.
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Dr. David Rock: and then they go off into these different tracks kind of in the middle. So I think we you know, we're really liking that that flow.
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Dr. David Rock: You know, in in that in that today. And we've got some pretty important new research to share. Opening and closing each day.
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Dr. David Rock: That I think will be really meaningful. What are you most excited about, Emma?
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Oh, man, I'm not sure, because I'm so deep in the design of this that I'm I'm also really excited about the day to actually show up. But I'm I'm very excited about talking about some of the new work that we're putting into leadership development. Some of the new research that we're going to bring in. We have some really powerful scientists coming in with great like, brain measuring technology, brain activity technology that we're. I'm excited about.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: you know, launching some new points of view on civility, accountability. So I'm really excited about those as well.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, those are big. Yeah, you mentioned brain tech. We've been working with Moran Cerf, on a a brain lab we're launching in May in in the spring next year in New York. Maybe my team can put the link in the chat. We're launching a a c-suite brain lab.
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Dr. David Rock: It's a 3 day retreat where you're involved in all these leadership activities while wired up. And all this stuff being measured, and you get all this amazing amazing feedback and get, you know, chance to really build muscles as a leader. It's going to be a super powerful retreat. It's a c-suite brain. Lab.
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Dr. David Rock: May 5th to 8 in. In Manhattan next year, so something to share in in your organization. So we'll we'll be, you know, sharing more about that at the summit. But Moran will be in the closing keynote. I think. Day one. He's an amazing scientist. That we've we've been collaborating with.
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Dr. David Rock: And I know we're also. Soon after the summit we're launching A for the 1st time. We're doing a 1 day brain based design and facilitation workshop. I think I'm running the 1st one in New York, and then one in London. But there's a those of you interested in like designing learning or or facilitating more powerfully through brain principles. We we're doing a 1 day workshop not. I can't remember the date. It's my team will put it in. There we go.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: It's.
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Dr. David Rock: There's the link for it. I think it's October, November 13. There we go. Thanks. So November 13, a couple of weeks after the summit. We're doing that
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Dr. David Rock: in in downtown Manhattan. So look out for that, if you're interested in that. But the summit itself, you know, is an opportunity for us to stretch ourselves. To push ourselves to launch new research. It helps us, you know, really stay on the on, on the research track. Stay really focused.
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Dr. David Rock: You know. Keep innovating all of that, and we'll be, you know, we'll be doing all sorts of things. I think one of the things I'm excited about is we'll have a guest.
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Dr. David Rock: a a guest faculty in every session, which is our AI called Niles so Niles is going to be commenting as well as we go, based on real time things. And it's gonna be really interesting to see how you have an AI at A at a summit actually involved.
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Dr. David Rock: So that's gonna be interesting. Yeah, I think that's probably plenty for today. Any other comments you want to make, Emma before you wrap up and hand back to to Shelby.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Well, I did want to point out that next week we're we're bringing up our topic of learning audits, which is something that is so highly related to what we're talking about today. So do you want to talk a bit about? Why, that's so important.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, yeah, I mean, these bigger events really should be part like a really coherent part of an overall learning strategy. Right? That you should be using them to kick off other things. And all this stuff. So we've seen this increased interest in learning audits where you basically look at the whole learning strategy. We started doing these when the pandemic hit
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Dr. David Rock: because people had to go virtual, and we'd already been doing that for years. But there's increased interest right now because of this huge acceleration in how much there is to learn and how little time there is to do it. So we've been helping companies look at you know, significantly increasing the impact of learning while decreasing the time and the cost.
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Dr. David Rock: And so we'll look at a whole learning strategy and show you how you can get more impact in less time and less cost, you know, quite meaningfully. So we're going to talk about that next week at the at the next session, and we'll do that. We will sort of walk through
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Dr. David Rock: what that looks like, what the insights are. And then. We're also doing that, you know, in companies now. But I think we just thought be interesting to share kind of what we're seeing. Give you some insights. But it's it's been really interesting to see the trends out there in in learning. So if you are interested in that, and you're in a hurry. Can't wait for next session. Just put learning audit and your company name, and someone can reach out and
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Dr. David Rock: and talk to your learning. Audit your company name in the chat someone can can reach out. But I think that's plenty for today, Emma. Thanks for a great conversation. I'm excited to be part of these big events
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Dr. David Rock: again. You know some of them are really great. I was at a fantastic one. This week with Jefferson health. They've really been thoughtful about all these principles. You're really impressed with the the way they designed and and executed the the event. But yeah, watch out for designing for the stage instead of the seat.
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Dr. David Rock: You think about people's experience and think about coherence, not sizzler but you know, that'll make a really big difference. And yeah, hope to see many of you at the summit. So thanks so much. Everyone. Thanks, Emma. I'll I'll hand back to to Shelby. Yeah.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Thanks, all.
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Shelby Wilburn: Awesome. Thank you so much, David and Emma. We appreciate you all the time. Now for our closing. We put our poll up. Let us know how Nli can help you in the future with just a few more quick announcements. So summit 2024 is taking place next month, October 29th and 30, th as we spoke about earlier, we've been working really hard on it. So if you want to learn more about that and get tickets.
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Shelby Wilburn: visit, summit, neuroleadership.com for all of your needs. If you enjoyed today's conversation, you'll love, the your brain at work podcast so wherever you listen to podcasts, check that out.
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Shelby Wilburn: And this is where we officially say farewell. So on behalf of our team, behind the scenes and everyone involved at Nli. Thank you so much, and we'll see you again next week.