Positive behaviors, extra effort, and a sense of connection are important, but they aren't enough to guarantee a high-performing organization. That takes respect. In the second act of our two-part series on Workplace Culture Fundamentals, we reconvene our panel to: Clarify the distinction between civility and respect Illuminate why respect makes cultures of inclusion possible Provide practical habits for cultivating respectful workplaces As organizations struggle to combat the billion-dollar potential losses incurred by toxic social climates, this webinar will provide leaders with powerful tools to combat toxicity and promote prosocial workplaces that perform well.
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Shelby Wilburn: Welcome back to another week of your brain at work. Live! I'm your host, Shelby Wilburn, for regulars. We're happy to have you back, and for our newcomers. Welcome. We're excited to have you here with us today for the 1st time
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Shelby Wilburn: in this second half of our two-part series on workplace culture fundamentals. We'll explore the distinction between civility and respect, and provide practical habits for cultivating respectful workplaces.
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Shelby Wilburn: As I quickly share some housekeeping notes, drop in the comments or chat box where you're joining in from today.
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Shelby Wilburn: we are recording today's session. So if you're interested in a replay, be on the lookout for an email later today that email is going to include a survey for feedback as well as a number of resources that are aligned with today's conversation. We suggest putting your phone on. Do not disturb quitting out of your email and messaging apps. So you can get the most out of today's discussion. And it's also going to help with your audio and video quality.
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Shelby Wilburn: and we love interaction. So feel free to share your thoughts and comments with us in the chat. Now it's time to introduce our speakers, for today.
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Shelby Wilburn: Our 1st guest broke barriers as one of the first, st and for a long time only, black Sea level speechwriters in a Fortune 100.
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Shelby Wilburn: Her 3 Ted presentations, challenging businesses to get serious about inclusion have collectively over 2.5 million views here at the Neuro Leadership Institute. She solves Dei challenges, builds actionable frameworks and brokers. Honest Dei conversations among top leaders.
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Shelby Wilburn: Please join me in welcoming Nli's global head of Dei Janet M. Stobel. Great to have you here today, Janet.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: Great to be here.
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Shelby Wilburn: Our next guest coined the term neuroleadership when he co-founded Nli over 2 decades ago with a professional doctorate, 4 successful books under his name and a multitude of bylines ranging from the Harvard Business Review to the New York Times, and many more a warm welcome to the co-founder and CEO of the Neuroleadership Institute, Dr. David Rock.
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Shelby Wilburn: Thanks for being here today, David.
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Dr. David Rock: Hey, Shelby? Good to be here with you, and hey, Janet.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: Hey! There!
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Shelby Wilburn: And our moderator for today holds a Phd in neuroscience from New York University. She leads the research team at the Neuro Leadership Institute, where she focuses on translating cognitive and social neuroscience into actionable solutions for organizations. A warm welcome to the senior Director of Research at Nli. Dr. Emma Saro. Thanks for being here today, Emma, as always, and I will pass it over to you.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Thanks, Shelby. Well, back again, David and Janet. Nice to see you all, and welcome back for anyone who was here last week. So just to get the chat started. I know we love hearing from all of you in the chat. If you were here last week, what were your insights that you took away. We talked about civility. We talked about the science underlying, why, it's difficult. We talked about how to create it and what it could look like in the workplace
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Dr. Emma Sarro: anything that you might have done differently as you walked away. Anything that might have you know that you might have taken and tried last week. If you didn't join us today, we're talking a bit about respect and love to know what what brought you here today and like, what about the term respect is is, you know, tapping into your interest, and especially in the workplace.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Now, I'm just going to start us off with a little bit of context here, respect in the workplace is definitely something that we need to work on. We talked about why civility is absolutely something we need to work on. And it's a bit different.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: And we know that only about half of workers actually feel their employees have really cracked the code on fostering respectful interactions in the workplace
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Dr. Emma Sarro: would love to know if this kind of matches, how you're feeling.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: and even in our own research into understanding, civility and respect, even the definitions sometimes blur. And so it's hard to actually understand. You know, what is civility in the workplace. And how do we actually get to respect? So the 1st thing. I just want to throw it out to Janet, and she's been doing a lot of work on pulling these 2 apart. What it means. Both of these in the workplace, and I'd love to know what you think. What's the difference between civility and respect.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: Thanks, Emma. Well, there definitely is a difference. And you know, as a writer, former English major and somebody who studied Latin for way longer than I ever needed to.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: I'm always sort of interested in the words we use for things. So if we think about the difference between civility and respect. It may be helpful even to go back to the roots of the words.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: Civility comes from the word civilis, which is all about society, and how we're expected to act as citizens. But respect, on the other hand, comes from respect us, which means the act of looking back, and respectus comes from the word respicara, which means to look back, regard and consider. So civility is more about maintaining social order. And in the workplace. It's, you know, social order there, too, so it can be superficial.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: It can be being polite.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: It can be just following the rules without any genuine regard for another person. It's kind of, like the minimum standard of behavior in a professional setting.
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Dr. David Rock: Hmm.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: But when you start talking about respect that runs much deeper.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: that requires seeing the inherent worth of a person appreciating their unique qualities and believing that they deserve to be treated with dignity.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: and without that
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Janet Stovall, CDE: any display of respect is just civility in disguise, and it's very superficial. It might look polite, but there's no real meaning to it. Civility is a ceiling. When you don't value somebody sort of inherently, and you might follow the social etiquette. You might avoid being offensive, and you might maintain a professional distance. But you're not going to go the extra mile to understand another perspective. You're not going to advocate for somebody's needs, and you're not going to be able to create a space where somebody truly feels like they belong.
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Dr. David Rock: Hmm.
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Dr. David Rock: yeah, thanks, Janet. Some, some
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Dr. David Rock: some deep thoughts.
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Dr. David Rock: I often see things in terms of the brain's organizing principle, which is like, you know, minimize danger and pain and threat and maximize reward. It's quite a you can sort of represent it as a horizontal line, with sort of positive on one side, negative on the other, and and to me, like civility is like the absence of negative. So you're neutral.
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Dr. David Rock: like civility is like taking away the negative. So there's just no conflict right? Right? Where respect, if you start at neutral respect, is about adding positive. So you're you're actually creating positive conditions for people to bring their full selves in. I think that's that's a really interesting distinction. And just looking at the comments in the chat, too. Some really interesting insights from folks. And firstly, if you did miss last week's session.
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Dr. David Rock: Evan, just put it in the chat. You'll see it there so you can download that and listen to it. But I think, you know, there's a couple of interesting comments like, you know, there's a difference between trying to change people's beliefs and changing their behaviors like, maybe civility is just getting people to behave differently. We're not trying to change their beliefs. We're just saying this. This is how you make a sandwich. And this is how you interact
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Dr. David Rock: with a person when you're not comfortable with them, like there's a standard. It's behaviors. That's what kind of civility is. We're not trying to change your opinion about people or something. You just do things differently.
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Dr. David Rock: and yeah, some other interesting comments.
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Dr. David Rock: the difference between intent and impact, I think, is a is a, you know, really common
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Dr. David Rock: challenge and and important discussion
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Dr. David Rock: in you know, in in organizational context is often such a such a big gap. So yeah, I think I think last session was really interesting. It opened my eyes
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Dr. David Rock: to the challenges of of civility, or, you know, incivility, and
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Dr. David Rock: I think the science that we started to unpack was really, you know, until I sort of saw it. I wasn't sort of clear how much the science would be useful. And then I once we mapped it out, was like, Oh, that's actually very useful.
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Dr. David Rock: is what what we did with the science, with the habits is basically sort of show people the steps to a better behaviour, which is
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Dr. David Rock: kind of notice that you're about to say something mean.
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Dr. David Rock: Inhibit that response and communicate in a clean way, and then showing people what clean looks like.
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Dr. David Rock: And I think those 3 steps. It's almost like an if, then plan right, you know. If you feel yourself, you know, getting worked up.
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Dr. David Rock: Then, you know, pause for a moment and communicate in a clean way. That doesn't leave a residual of, you know, of disquiet for the other person. And so and then we're able to like map out what those mechanisms are in the brain. I think it's a it's an interesting way to teach it to to kind of teach civility like this is what it looks like in the sort of 3 to 5 to 10 seconds that you make a mistake.
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Dr. David Rock: So this is the new habit to build in that way. If there is anyone on the line that's interested in sort of talking more about this, maybe building a pilot together or running a briefing on it for your executive team, or, you know, doing some work together. Just put civility in the chat and your company name
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Dr. David Rock: and we're happy to to have a conversation, just civility, a company name, and we'll have a follow up conversation with you about kind of a briefing, or, you know, learning experience of different sorts. So but let's let's, I think, move on. Emma, back to you.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, yeah, it's great. You know, what's coming up for me even in this discussion. Here is how how much civility is really about this self awareness of what what you're doing in the environment, your own emotions before you act, you know, kind of like taking an assessment of the situation, whether you're responding to someone or before you act. So it's really this, this kind of like self regulation piece, which is effortful and
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Dr. Emma Sarro: it can create this like baseline neutral level of civility in the workplace, not to say that it's easy. But this next step that really kind of aligns with what Janet is describing as respect is this like deeper sense of pro-social behavior that's coming up. And it
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Dr. Emma Sarro: it really takes just like a next level of cognitive resources. Whether it's a social risk you're about to take, or whether it's a physical risk that you're about to take to kind of step forward and and take perspective of another individual. So
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Dr. Emma Sarro: it is going to be a bit more intentional to change the attitude and change the belief system as opposed to just kind of making sure you're self regulated in the moment, which, not to say is easy. But it is something that is the 1st step, and the second step takes that that larger shift in mindset.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: Well and what? And to follow up with that. You use the word intention, and you know it takes intention sort of on a continuum. It takes intention to not be incivil, but it takes a lot more intention to be respectful
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Janet Stovall, CDE: and to your point. That's a little bit of a threat. With that a little bit more, a little bit deeper. You have to go, but at the end of the day that is where inclusion in the workplace comes from. Civility is where you know just the ability to function comes from. But if you really want inclusion, you got to move along that continuum to respect.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: So here's a question that's come. It's come up in our discussions as we were planning. This is
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Dr. Emma Sarro: If you want to respect someone. Do you also have to like them?
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Dr. Emma Sarro: And, Janet, what's the answer to that? I think a lot.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: Absolutely not
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Janet Stovall, CDE: you. But you also don't have to respect someone to like them, either. Really, it's imagine 2 coworkers. Okay, so Jamie is a blast to work with, you know. Funny, energetic.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: always keeping the party going. But Jamie is incredibly disorganized and unreliable. So you like them, but you don't respect their work.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: But then there's Tracy over here who's super efficient and skilled, but also blunt. A little bit arrogant, doesn't get, doesn't play well with others. You don't necessarily like them, but you respect their contributions. So it is highly possible that you can like somebody and not respect them, or respect them or not like them, and that did come up in our conversation, and we got kind of a laugh about that.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Absolutely any-, any.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, I think I think my thought is I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts in, maybe in the chat. Let's hear some comments from folks. We've got some lots of people participating today. Do you have to like someone to respect them or like, what's you know? What? What do you guys think in the chat?
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Dr. David Rock: is a question from William is respecting someone's contributions, the same as respecting the person. Hmm!
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Janet Stovall, CDE: No, it's not, and that's a very good point. It's not
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Janet Stovall, CDE: So it does. That's that that you're right. That's a very good point. That's sort of the superficial level. I think that. But I would say
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Janet Stovall, CDE: that
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Janet Stovall, CDE: respect is
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Janet Stovall, CDE: respect is sort of a growing thing. I do believe that sometimes we start respecting people
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Janet Stovall, CDE: by respecting
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Janet Stovall, CDE: how we interact with them. And so, maybe respecting somebody's work is sort of the 1st step. Because if you really don't respect somebody. I don't know that you would respect their contribution. So maybe it's not the work itself. It's the contribution. And I'm trying to think about my own life. Do I have people that I don't respect, but I can respect their contribution. I think I can, but there's going to be some degree of respect
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Janet Stovall, CDE: at some level that has to happen for me to even feel that way.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah.
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Dr. David Rock: Really tricky if you don't. Yeah, it's possible, but but tricky. So you know, people are saying you don't have to like someone to respect them as the general consensus, which is interesting. I like the comment earlier as well just to go back a little bit that someone was mentioning that
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Dr. David Rock: You know, the the company sometimes when they they roll out programs about respect are just focusing on trying to remove the negatives. So they're really doing civility training, but calling it respect training.
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Dr. David Rock: And it can. It can ease that can easily happen. So you know, you, you run a program about respect. And it's really about you know. You know, anti harassment and and bullying and you know all these things so and and so it ends up being really
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Dr. David Rock: not about respect. Interestingly, it's about, you know, not not being in civil, uncivil.
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Dr. David Rock: I'm I'm told you we can say in civil or uncivil, but we're going to oscillate.
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Dr. David Rock: So I think it's it's it's an interesting challenge. I mean, we're trying to say that civility is a clean distinction of
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Dr. David Rock: you know that you should use for kind of the removal of negatives, and if you're trying to add positives, you, you probably want to think about respect and not muddy those. That's my perspective, anyway.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: Well, you know, we wrote something about this 2 years ago. And
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Janet Stovall, CDE: but before the word was really taking over in the workplace.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: it is a really big word right now. It's a really big word. And I think that the reason it's a big word is because we are seeing these behaviors that are in civil and
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Janet Stovall, CDE: and it's because of the lack of respect. I think, that we are seeing this behavior. But you're right. If you muddy the things you don't really fix the deeper problem.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, you know, there's a great question in the chat from Kim Clark.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: And she's saying, Hi, can you? Oh, no, I'm losing it. Can you talk about nice versus kind culture
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Dr. Emma Sarro: related to civility versus respect.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: That's a good question.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: I think they sort of. I think they sort of mirror what we're talking about here. You know, people can be
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Janet Stovall, CDE: nice to each other, which is basically just sort of very surface. You're not. You're not mean. It's sort of like David saying. Niceness is the absence of meanness. And that's table stakes. That's just what you want people to be. It is. It also is not challenging anything. Kindness requires you to do something to step outside of your comfort zone, to actually
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Janet Stovall, CDE: have a reason to care. And that's a little bit deeper. So I think those is sort of the same thing that's
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Janet Stovall, CDE: back to David's point. That's adding something to it. It's not being neutral.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, absolutely.
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Dr. David Rock: And you know, for those who probably lots of people don't know. Janet's really just got such a deep wealth of knowledge and experience, thinking this and
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Dr. David Rock: I was just looking at your recent book lately, Janet, for folks who haven't seen it. I love the title. It's the fine art of not saying stupid shit, and I'll put the link in the chat. People can see it. But there's a lot about this in in your work and about kind of.
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Dr. David Rock: you know, not not making a mess of things, which is, you know, is both civility and respect. And so it's it's something that I know. You know. You know a lot about interesting.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: Another thing is, if you think about this sometimes civility and respect.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: power, dynamics play a huge role in that.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: you know, if you are in a higher position of power.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: It's relatively.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: it's easier. It's easier, I think, to be civil most of the time. That's just good behavior.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: But sometimes the respect part is a little bit harder to do. And as leaders
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Janet Stovall, CDE: that's incredibly important, because leaders have an outsized influence, so understanding that difference
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Janet Stovall, CDE: and seeking to do to be additive, to be additive to me. That's how we actually build not only an inclusive workplace, but a truly effective and
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Janet Stovall, CDE: successful workplace. Because if you think about
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Janet Stovall, CDE: what we do, we push for diversity because we say we want people's input, we say it drives innovation. If you don't respect
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Janet Stovall, CDE: the people that are there for their for this diversity. Not in spite of it.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: Then you don't. You don't ever get past that point where you actually leverage it. So to me, respect is not just about being nice to people. There's a business. There's a business reason for it as well.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Absolutely. Yeah. So we've been talking about how these are definitely different terms. Maybe on some kind of spectrum where you really need to start with civility and build towards respect.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: But what does it look like? So how can you even tell that you have a respectful workplace? What are those like maybe 3 basic behaviors or actions. Janet.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: Let's see. Well, I mean, there are. We're going to get a little bit more into the science of this. But when I think about what respect looks like in the workplace.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: It starts with the things you have to get over to get there. I mean, it starts with working on the things that are going to get in the way your unconscious bias, your insecurity, your threat stake.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: and basically your lack of exposure to people that are different. But it's it's really about
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Janet Stovall, CDE: seeing people as in group or out group
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Janet Stovall, CDE: and
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Janet Stovall, CDE: so the way it looks is when you have sort of stepped over those things. So if you talk about, you know biases, when you have worked to mitigate your biases.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: it's a whole lot easier for you to see the things that are getting in the way. So it's and like I said, we'll get a little bit deeper into the science of them. Ask David to do that, but some of it is having empathy. Some of it is being well willing to
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Janet Stovall, CDE: see another perspective. That's not like yours.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: Some of it is actually valuing somebody's difference
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Janet Stovall, CDE: on a day-to-day basis.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: David, what do you think.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, you know, we were thinking about this experience of respect and like, what does it look like? And one of the interesting insights we had was. There's not like one pathway to developing this capacity that there's sort of an underpinning set of cognitive behaviors. But there's quite a few different pathways you can get there.
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Dr. David Rock: I'm not. I haven't thought of a metaphor for this. I'm not really sure. But it's it's you know. It's almost like you know.
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Dr. David Rock: I don't know, you know. Make making a, you know, making breakfast. There's lots of you know, having breakfast, you can. You can go out for breakfast. You can make breakfast. You can order in breakfast, you can. Clearly I'm hungry. You can. You know. There's many pathways to eating breakfast right. There's no like one way you should do it right. Maybe you should mix it up and and I think in a similar respect to sort of an outcome in a way.
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Dr. David Rock: And there are these different pathways. So we you know, we were looking at the different work we do. And I realized there were sort of 3 main pathways
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Dr. David Rock: that gets to respect. And and I think, let's let's dig into that a bit.
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Dr. David Rock: I think there's there's this one pathway that's essentially introducing one of the stickiest and most potent kind of almost like happy viruses into a company. And that's growth mindset. And we've got over a decade of data from hundreds and hundreds of companies and tens of thousands of people showing when you introduce growth, mindset people literally like open their minds every week.
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Dr. David Rock: Right now, when I say people I mean, like 90% you know, like a good, a good outcome for us. And we and we'll measure. This is 90% of people every week are shifting their mindset at least one to 3 times. And they weren't doing before and they're talking about it to others. So so growth. Mindset's a really interesting tool to notice when you might be kind of close about something or someone
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Dr. David Rock: right? And it. And it has this pathway. It has this sort of mechanism, I should say, of making you more thoughtful about your you know your attitude right overall.
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Dr. David Rock: And so, you know you'll you'll go up to someone that you might be about to be disrespectful to, and you'd be like, oh, I must have. Maybe I have a fixed mindset about them. Right? And you'll notice you're you're basically more reflective. You'll you'll notice your automatic prepotent responses right more through growth mindset work. And then also, interestingly, one of the habits is one of the 3 habits that really central. That we really anchor on is is basically asking for feedback.
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Dr. David Rock: And when you get people doing that, even like a couple of times, they're they're like blown away
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Dr. David Rock: with how useful that is, and how much information other people have, and they just get this like deepened curiosity about how other people see the world
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Dr. David Rock: and a little bit of humility.
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Dr. David Rock: So the mindset route is interesting right? It makes people more like aware of their responses. It makes people more able to shift their responses. And it makes people more curious about other people's experience
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Dr. David Rock: and and the outcome of that, if you're measuring it with their team, their teams would say, Oh, my! My boss seems more thoughtful.
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Dr. David Rock: My boss seems to you know, like appreciate me more. My boss seems to kind of ask me more questions, and and the outcome is people feeling more engaged. And you know, ultimately feeling more respected. So that's 1 pathway. We'll talk about the others. But, Janet, what would you add to that? Or or Emma sort of the growth, mindset pathway towards respect.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: Well, I would say that you know
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Janet Stovall, CDE: the growth mindset pathway. There, that's the internal work you do where that shows up and how that pushes out, especially in a Dei concept as context is, think about it. If you open your mind, if you grow your mind, if you have a growth mindset, you are better able to
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Janet Stovall, CDE: see value. Consider
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Janet Stovall, CDE: other people and what their contributions are and what they can, what maybe what their perspectives are. So it's huge. That's definitely one way towards it. And and it's almost a prerequisite that you have to do that. So when you're doing that internal work, it
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Janet Stovall, CDE: it. Probably I can't imagine that it wouldn't, but it definitely makes lays the groundwork for the external work you have to do to be more inclusive in a diverse environment.
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Dr. David Rock: Right? Yeah, I mean, certainly. Like, if we if a company says we want to do Dei really properly, we want to really move the needle. We're going to say, let's start with growth mindset, because it makes people open. Right? Makes people curious, makes people, you know, interested in others. Perspectives see people differently. So it does lay this foundation. And I think the mechanisms there are kind of more. Let's be lazy and call it self awareness, but it's more metacognition, like more thinking about your thinking.
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Dr. David Rock: more ability to change your automatic responses and more interest in other people's perspective. So I think that's what what growth mindset does. And it's it's 1 possible pathway again. This, you know, you want to have breakfast. It's not always right to cook it sometimes do other things. But that's 1 pathway. Emma, do you want to add anything there on growth, mindset?
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, yeah, I think it's a great way to look at it. And I love the idea of imagining growth mindset more as a foundation because it is. It is a shift of it's a huge shift in mindset, and it allows you to just view, even when you're when you're wrong as something to learn from
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Dr. Emma Sarro: sometimes. And in some studies they've shown that being wrong actually, triggers a bit of a reward response. So you're actually encouraged to learn about where where you differ in perspective from someone else. So just that mindset shift allows you to see others, not as competition, but someone to learn from. And so it allows you to maybe seek perspective and listen a bit more intentionally, which are 2 of the major pillars of
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Dr. Emma Sarro: actually being a bit more pro social, and taking the time to ask for another perspective. So your your brain is just looking for other things to learn from, whereas a fixed mindset is one that's completely closed off, and you see others as competition, even yourself, as competition, as opposed to just like open feel to learn from
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Dr. Emma Sarro: nice nice distance.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: And to add to that very quickly to David's point about feedback that is also foundational to allyship, and being able to see, you know, because, you know allyship is ongoing. You make mistakes. If you can't learn from your mistakes, or if you're not willing to admit that you made a mistake, and then seek to figure out what that mistake was as an ally. You can't grow so it very much is foundational growth mindsets foundational to actually creating equity and inclusion in the workplace.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, interesting.
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Dr. David Rock: Well, let's let's talk about the second pathway. And again, these are all like different pathways to a similar endpoint. Should we talk about the bias pathway, I think, next such an interesting one. So you know, our work on bias started a long time ago.
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Dr. David Rock: And it came out of research we did with heads of talent and heads of learning and heads of of leadership and heads of people. All this basically around. This one year we ran all these events and said, What's the one thing that you can't seem to solve? And you're investing in the most, and you're most concerned about. And there are all these issues. And then there was bias.
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Dr. David Rock: And it was. This was like nearly 10 years ago now that, like bias was one of these things that companies were really really anxious about. They were actually spending a lot of time and money trying to fix, making no progress at all.
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Dr. David Rock: And for us. We looked at that and said, Wow, that's a real sign of we're missing something in the science, in in how we're approaching it. And we thought we'd take a year or so to crack something, and 4 years later.
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Dr. David Rock: after publishing and then retracting, and you know, we finally found something that was meaningful. And it's been an amazing journey. It's because bias is such an interesting thing. But what teaching people about mitigating bias does. And it's not so much teaching them about bias. Teaching about bias doesn't do much at all. You ought to teach them about how to actually mitigate bias.
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Dr. David Rock: what what we find that is is. There's this moment, 1st of all
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Dr. David Rock: that people need to have that's not like, Oh, I'm biased. We never try to make people have that moment. It's it's this moment of like,
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Dr. David Rock: you know, it's possible to feel really, really right about something and actually be really, really wrong. And it's sort of a very powerful moment when people have that I'll often sit down with the CEO
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Dr. David Rock: and say, You know,
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Dr. David Rock: something like, you know, have you ever made a really important decision like to buy a company or invest in or invest in a person or
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Dr. David Rock: build a strategy you've ever like made decision. You were really, really sure about it.
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Dr. David Rock: And you know, 3, 6, 12 months later, you were like, who was that person like who made that decision
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Dr. David Rock: and realized it was you and and every CEO I've ever asked that to has looked at me quietly and said, Don't tell anyone. But yeah, it happens all the time, and like, what is that? And so so sort of realizing that it's possible
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Dr. David Rock: to, you know, feel really right, actually be really wrong. It's sort of a stepping stone to realize that your brain is not perfect, and you can't actually trust
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Dr. David Rock: everything that your conscious mind spits out to you. A lot of it is garbage. A lot of it is very biased. A lot of it is amazing.
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Dr. David Rock: But you, you actually have a check, and it creates this, especially when we walk through the 5 categories of bias with people, and they start to see them everywhere and label them.
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Dr. David Rock: And honestly like that day people go to meetings and they go. Oh, look at that! There's a safety bias. Look at that! There's a similarity bias.
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Dr. David Rock: They start to see how pervasive the biases are
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Dr. David Rock: and just, you know. And then they start to about 78% of people start to call out a bias every week that they weren't before. That's what we see when we teach this and what what it does, it makes. It gives them humility.
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Dr. David Rock: And a lot of the biases can only be mitigated by getting other people's perspectives. One of them, in particular.
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Dr. David Rock: which is the experience. Bias like you just can't address that without other people's perspectives right?
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Dr. David Rock: And so it's not that it creates disrespect for yourself.
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Dr. David Rock: but it creates this sort of slight disquiet that you you actually won't make the best possible decisions. If you don't really
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Dr. David Rock: like really taking other people's perspectives.
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Dr. David Rock: And you know, it's this thing a lot of leaders will will talk about. You know I try to surround myself with people much smarter than me, like, yeah, you need to.
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Dr. David Rock: because you'll you'll only see a slice, you know, if you've been trained as a lawyer, you'll only see the world through the lawyer's perspective. You can't see the world through a marketer's perspective or an engineer's perspective or customer service perspective, right? Or even a customer's perspective. You just see the world that way. Anyway, I'm on a rant now, but the the point is, when you teach people about bias, the bias pathway.
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Dr. David Rock: It's a different mechanism than growth, mindset, right? The growth mindset is sort of more awareness. And a little bit of interest with bias. It's it's like.
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Dr. David Rock: even more active, like really reaching out for other perspectives and really challenging your own thinking more. And it creates these conditions that you, you kind of want other people's inputs input so it makes you respect other people in a way. And as soon as you start doing that a few times and making better decisions. You're like, Wow, I need other people. I need other people to be the best you know, performer that I can, and that creates conditions for respect. Emma, speaking of respect, you want to say something.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Know I know it just keeps coming up because you're talking about biases. And we've been thinking about just one of the limiting factors, for respect is just that we get hung up. When I think of bias, I think of the things that just like hang us up a bit. They they get in the way of us, seeing the world and making decisions that might be best for us and for others, our organizations, or whatever, and the one that really gets in the way I think of respect is, and just like delays us in that behavior is the similarity bias that we talk about, that
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Dr. Emma Sarro: our instant either attraction for a group of individuals or avoidance of a group of individuals. And it's, you know, with everyone has it. And it's all based on our prior experiences. And just the way our brains are are made. And so that's that's the struggle is that we do have to find ways of getting over them. So that similarity bias, we we tend to group people
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Dr. Emma Sarro: in our in group based on what team we're on or based on the color of our skin based on where we went to school, based on, you know, like where what state we live in all anything. Really, it's so easy to group individuals into your in group. But then, what it means is that anyone that's outside of that group
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Dr. Emma Sarro: you'll feel less empathy, for you'll feel less motivation to help them. You'll understand them less just
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Dr. Emma Sarro: default. And so it just gets in the way. So we really requires us to get find ways of getting through that 1st takes intention.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, let's let's dig into that. That's a mechanism. I think it's really really important to understand. I was sort of talking quite generally about bias and sort of the disquiet it gives you. But there's this really really important insight inside the similarity bias, which is the 1st s in the seeds model and similarity bias is, it's basically
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Dr. David Rock: in group and out group. And it's similar to relatedness in in the scarf model as well. They have a similar sort of mechanism or brain mechanism. But similarity bias is basically the way people that feel similar to you are given priority processing. And more than that, Jason Mitchell at Harvard showed that you you process similar people's thoughts like you process your own thoughts
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Dr. David Rock: like literally like talking to yourself, whereas people who are different to you or dissimilar. Use a whole different brain network to process everything. And people have taken that that kind of study and run with it. In all these different contexts. And we see that like basic perception is different.
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Dr. David Rock: based on whether you think someone is in group or out group. And if you don't know the concept. The construct in group is, you know, having similar goals, you know. It's us. It's you know. You're on the same team. You feel like you're sharing things with this person, you know, outgroup is like, you know, they're different to me, slightly dangerous. They're on an opposing team, or maybe we have competing goals
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Dr. David Rock: and all those things kind of create
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Dr. David Rock: in group and out group. And it's fascinating how easy it is to create in group and out group which makes it actually a very well studied thing in the lab. Lots and lots of people have been studying what happens in the brain when you create in group or out group. And it's really easy to switch them. And you know, all this stuff. But what we see is that a basic level of perception
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Dr. David Rock: in group members. They're not just given like deep processing, like you perceive everything more richly.
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Dr. David Rock: And even there was one study showing that that they just took people and and created them as straw, like like like points of light moving across a screen.
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Dr. David Rock: And you even process points of light moving across the stream differently in the brain, based on in group or out group like, it's very deep processing. And then around empathy and motivation was interesting is a lot of different studies. But there's 1 i think that's just kind of fascinating, which is, you'll get a kind of 2 teams, your home team and an opposing team, and they'll see in the brain what happens when you think that your home team won, you get a big reward response.
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Dr. David Rock: And then when you think an opposing team one. You get a threat response right? And then you see your home team lost. That's a threat response, right? And you see your opposing team lost. That's a reward response, right? And you know, you see this really, really clearly in the data
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Dr. David Rock: that you know, we we're rewarded when people that feel like us win. And when people who don't feel like us lose right? And so there's, you know, it impacts perception. It impacts whether we have any empathy or not. For people
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Dr. David Rock: like people who are in our out group that we think are really different to us who have competing goals. We can kind of be. Treat them inhumanely, because we don't actually classify them as human. In a way.
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Dr. David Rock: you know, we can do really bad things because we've decided they're different to us with competing goals, and it sort of doesn't matter what we do. So
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Dr. David Rock: look, there's there's a whole raft of research around perception around empathy and around motivation.
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Dr. David Rock: That basically everything you do is different, based based on this distinction of is this in group or out group. So at the end of the day you could say, respect is
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Dr. David Rock: classifying someone as in group. It's very hard to have respect for someone who is out, who you believe is out group who, you believe has competing goals to you. You'll just kind of automatically disrespect them like you'll automatically grimace when they win
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Dr. David Rock: right? You won't even know it. You'll subconsciously be unhappy
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Dr. David Rock: when someone in your out group loses.
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Dr. David Rock: you know. Sorry you'll be happy when someone in your out group loses. You won't notice your face. Doing it. So so almost like respect is sort of creating in group. And I think teaching bias and particularly similarity bias is a really interesting path
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Dr. David Rock: to to that whole body of research and and kind of realizing that you need to create in group with people. And then having those you know, creating those shared goals in particular as a as a way forward.
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Dr. David Rock: Janet, what do you think? What's your reflections here.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: All the above and you know. One of the biggest obstacles, of course, to
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Janet Stovall, CDE: respect or including people.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: is bias. And you know, David, I always have this. Go back and forth about the 2 different kinds of cognitive versus implicit, and those words are difficult to understand. But if you think about in more in a simply way.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: the cognitive bias that we're born with that is evolutionary. That's what's going on in our head. We're not aware of it. And so
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Janet Stovall, CDE: if you once you become aware, and once you have a way to mitigate it.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: then you can. You can start working on it from the inside out. But then, even then, when you take that cognitive bias and sort of drop it into society
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Janet Stovall, CDE: and the ways the different lived experiences that we have, or what we see and read, and how we're raised.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: Then you get a different kind of bias that determines what your behavior is. And so if you start with the mitigating inside, it will by default help you mitigate outside. And that's when you can become inclusive. And that's when you can start respecting people, but I always think about in group. The example I always think about is, I went to a small college in the South, and
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Janet Stovall, CDE: a while ago, and there were plenty of times that we just did not get along very different opinions, different things. But once we got out, you know, there were different in groups and out groups. While I was there. Once we got out we would tell everybody, you know we we it's a small college. We are very much
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Janet Stovall, CDE: an in group, but that in group didn't happen while we were actually physically there together. Once we got out in the world, those memories, those perceptions gave us a different group. And so now we have an in group. And now that some of the differences that we had age changed it, too, but some of it is having that. You know, we're all wildcats. And because we're all wildcats, there's something that happens differently there. So I'm a firm believer in
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Janet Stovall, CDE: in group out group happens.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: If you want to actually get over, respect, people create a new in group.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: make somebody else a part of an in group, and then it's a lot easier to get over your bias, to listen to them, to see them in ways that you do an in group that you wouldn't as long as they're not group.
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Dr. David Rock: Right? So the sort of create shared goals with people and and create a group together. You know where you're sharing those goals. Those are the mechanisms for mitigating similarity bias and and creating respect. You'll respect people dramatically more when you've got things to do together. When you've got a shared goal. It's kind of flips them to in group so interesting. So just, you know, lifting up a bit, we've talked about growth mindset as a path to respect.
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Dr. David Rock: We talked about like addressing bias and teaching people how to mitigate bias. Right? You teach people how to mitigate bias. You're creating the conditions for more respect on so many levels. Let's go to the 3rd pathway to respect, and then we'll have time for questions and some comments and all that. But the 3rd pathway is similar, but different. And it's the pathway around inclusion.
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Dr. David Rock: right? And so you can do work on addressing bias and learn to like, see the biases and address them
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Dr. David Rock: and and you'll make different decisions as a result, maybe put in different systems. But everyday inclusion is is, you know, has some crossover. But it's actually a different set of muscles. Everyday inclusion is about. You know how you speak to each other.
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Dr. David Rock: how you communicate, how you interact. And you know those of you who know our work. You know. Know, we draw on the scarf model a lot. Scarf describes what's going on in the brain during social interactions and inclusion is really sending positive scarf signals, right? So positive signals of status, of certainty, of autonomy, relatedness, fairness, and address, that so in an inclusion pathway or approach right
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Dr. David Rock: with an organization we're teaching people about to ward in a way and getting people to recognize when a threat's happening. We're teaching them about the challenges of social threats like a status threat and a fairness threat. So we're teaching people to recognize scarf threats and in particular, teaching them to send these positive scarf signals ahead of time.
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Dr. David Rock: So we're actually teaching them to to like, not create. Let's say, for example, a status thread, right. So, being not having respect for someone is going to result in you creating status threats. Right? You're going to kind of put them down
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Dr. David Rock: if you if you don't respect someone, it's going to come out in your tone of voice, and the person's going to detect it right? So so it's just just the way it works, the way we work. It'll happen unconsciously often, you know, if you don't respect someone, you just won't pay attention when they talk to you. Right? You'll cut them off. You'll
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Dr. David Rock: respond very slowly to their comments or emails, and people will detect that as a status threat. So teaching people about inclusion
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Dr. David Rock: and scarf in particular, in particular, and threats you get to see the threats you might accidentally create by being disrespectful. And you'll you'll practice essentially being respectful. So sending positive scarf signals is actually being respectful in many ways, and the 2 are sort of connected. And of course fairness is also another one.
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Dr. David Rock: If you don't respect someone they'll feel treated unfairly. They'll. They'll feel like you're not fair with them, you know. You're giving opportunities to other people. You know, they just won't feel treated fairly. So I think status and autonomy will really play out. But essentially, you know, going that pathway
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Dr. David Rock: it creates an awareness of the way you impact others.
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Dr. David Rock: which is which is quite different to the growth, mindset pathway, right of just sort of being more interested in the bias pathway of of kind of noticing. You know how your thinking works right. This is about noticing how other people react to you
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Dr. David Rock: and responding differently. So like, you know, like I said with breakfast, there's no one way that you should always get there
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Dr. David Rock: different pathways. I think all these pathways can get to respect in kind of different ways. But Janet, just saying with inclusion for a minute, what are your thoughts on? Kind of the inclusion pathway, and how that builds respect cognitively.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: Well, you know, you talked earlier when we were talking about the
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Janet Stovall, CDE: point of it being additive versus neutral to me. That's where inclusion is, it is additive because you are then consciously deciding to bring somebody in, to create a different group, to do that.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: When I think about, you know, weaponized or not. The term Dei.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: The I inclusion to me is the most important thing, and it is the one thing that when you truly want to leverage diversity, which is the easy thing you can get bodies in the building. You can do that. And equity is probably one of the harder things, because that that's
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Janet Stovall, CDE: that's just a hard thing to do. But inclusion is the one thing that we have intention about. And so when we talk about respect, if we truly want to build. Respect. Inclusion is the way we do it, because you can't respect somebody that you don't understand. You can't respect somebody that you know nothing about. It's kind of hard to do that. You'll stay in your in group.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: and I'm a firm believer. I said this in my Ted talk that the workplace
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Janet Stovall, CDE: has the best opportunity for us to do this. It's the best opportunity for us to build respect, because it's the one place we are going to be confronted with people that are different and the ability to have it see and value. It's an opportunity to value a different perspective.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: And that's the inclusion pathway that lets you do that. You learn the behaviors, you practice the behaviors, and then eventually, you know, if you do it enough, you are going to open up, and you are going to be able to pull somebody in, and you are going to be able to respect them.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, interesting, interesting. Let's let's dig in some more. And I want to get to some of the interesting questions in the chat before we do this, let me just kind of get this out of the way. So we can kind of move on to some great questions. But if you are interested in in learning about these pathways. And I'll put this in the chat. Just just put the name of the solution and your company name, and someone will follow up. But there's a there's a way to build a growth mindset across any size organization in a month or a quarter
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Dr. David Rock: without any in-person training that's actually better than in-person training. There's a way to build bias mitigation skills across 100,000 100,000 people in a month or a quarter again, much cheaper, much faster, much better than in person training, and the same with inclusion. So we have these. If you're new to us. You know, we have these ways of doing this.
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Dr. David Rock: But just put I'll put it in the chat. Grow is our solution for growth, mindset, decide for bias and include for inclusion. Just put any of those names and your company name in the chat. Someone will reach out and share some resources with you. See if you want to chat further, to kind of understand how you can build that capacity. And you can also put these together, you know, grow.
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Dr. David Rock: desire to include work amazingly together in a pathway as well. But I just want to kind of get that out of the way. And now we can get to some interesting questions. And maybe before we do that, Emma, what's coming up for you, as you think about these 3 pathways growth mindset. Just, you know, bias and inclusion. What's coming up for you as you think about these 3.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, I mean, I I tend to think they all they're all needed. I mean, we've been talking about them separately. But as as this discussion has developed, I'm thinking.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: You know, the growth mindset and the and the seeds. Work is really like the the bias work is really about about yourself opening your mindset up to shifting and understanding what are the decision points that get in the way, or the things that halt us from actually engaging and asking for someone else's perspective, or seeing their perspective as maybe correct or different from ours. And that being okay, or what are the things that get in the way. But then the inclusion work is all around that intention, as Janet is talking about, and the action
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Dr. Emma Sarro: understanding all of the signals that might cause a very immediate threat in someone else, and sending those as sending opposite of those to encourage them to feel that sense of status. And that takes that's that action, that pro social behavior that's needed to create more of a respectful set of interactions. Is that intention using up some of your cognitive resources to show someone else that you respect them and provide them with a sense of value.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: So I think all of those together are needed to get and maybe foster this sense of sense of respect.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: Say that order is is, that's a good order, too, growth mindset
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Janet Stovall, CDE: to bias, mitigation to inclusion, because to me that bills away. So there are different pathways, but you use each pathway, and then you can actually go on a full journey.
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Dr. David Rock: Do slack.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, I mean, the pathway is, it's increasingly popular. We have a lot of partners who who maybe start with one and then, and then realize that that you can add and and it becomes kind of the the main approach. The other nice thing about this approach is you can share this language with the whole company, including, you know, frontline employees.
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Dr. David Rock: You can share these ideas, models, tools in really scale them. In in an interesting way, so I can see some folks putting that in the chat will someone will follow up relatively quickly
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Dr. David Rock: for either growth mindset breaking bias or inclusion. So? Yeah. So interesting comments and questions coming up in the chat. Emma, any you want to pull out?
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, there was one that came up that I'd love to ask your thoughts on is just the idea of from Dr. Don. If you do not see the person as equal. How can you respect them? I think that's a really interesting question. What happens if you don't see them as an equal.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, that's the status. That's the status problem. Right? You see them as lower status.
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Dr. David Rock: And as a result, you don't really pay attention. You don't really care about their thoughts. I think about sort of people's motivations and their goals as the sort of 2 building blocks of what makes someone human. So if you don't care why people are doing something, what their motivations are, what matters to them, and you don't care what they want to do. Their goals
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Dr. David Rock: that you just sort of treating them as a concept. And I think I sort of think of in the brain when we conceptualize people when we're like a straw person without motivations and goals, right? And we sort of so we're just not treating people as people. And when we're treating people as concepts without motivations and goals. Right?
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Dr. David Rock: We're gonna be disrespectful without even realizing it. So so I think you know, when you're seeing yourself as higher status, you're seeing them as lower status. You're gonna accidentally
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Dr. David Rock: be disrespectful. I think that's but then what happens when you create a shared goal right now, you're increasing relatedness right now. The status matters much less
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Dr. David Rock: right when you have a shared goal with someone who's much higher status than you, you're now got relatedness. It offsets the status threat that might be there. So you see, a lot of clever leaders will, like, you know, talk about the dumb things that they did recently to bring down their status and then talk about other things that we need to do together. Right? We got to do this together, right? That's relatedness.
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Dr. David Rock: And so it it creates a, you know, diminished status threat. So I so I think it's, I think it's important. But the the solution here is back to, you know, shared goals in a way
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Dr. David Rock: to create that relatedness. And so then you're going to have respect as an outcome. It's almost like I keep coming back to sort of respect as the output. It's like profit or something, right? It's like the output of doing good work versus something you sort of directly can go at, I think, if you directly say, Hey, David, can you build us a training about? You know how people can be more respectful? It's like you sort of end up at. Don't be disrespectful, and you end up back at civility.
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Dr. David Rock: You end up at, you know. Don't say mean things right, whereas I think the the way to create the positive is, you know, growth, mindset bias or inclusion work
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Dr. David Rock: which really builds cognitive habits that actually makes people more respectful as an outcome. That's kind of how how we see it at the moment.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: And to that point, and to the question.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: think about who has is going to have a hard time with that? A lot of times it will be leaders, because by default, by hierarchy they don't see people as their equals. And so it's going to take a different kind of work. But the idea of creating a shared goal. Anybody who's heard me talk knows that I firmly believer that the
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Janet Stovall, CDE: tying diversity to business outcomes is important for a lot of reasons. That is, that shared goal. So if you are in a leadership position and the hierarchy of the organization gives you a very real status that makes it hard for you to see people as equals. But if you are working towards a shared goal
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Janet Stovall, CDE: in the company to do things within the organization automatically. That shifts. So I'm a firm believer that that's 1 of the ways you can help do that, tie it to business.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, that's a great point. One more great question. Can you unpack? How ergs do or do not fit these pathways?
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Do they help or hurt.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: I think that is a choice.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: That's it depends on what ergs do. I've always seen employee groups on kind of a continuum.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: and they start out as affinity groups which is sort of like lifeboat mentality. You're just there you find each other. People who have shared goals with you become sort of that in group you created.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: Then it goes a little bit further, and it becomes when it becomes an erg. Then you're advocating for the needs of that group. And then most organizations want you to get to be a Brg. Where, then, you are taking the things that are unique at that group and using it to leverage it.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: But if you're in that erg phase.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: I think that
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Janet Stovall, CDE: you have come together as an in group for something for some sort of shared belief
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Janet Stovall, CDE: as an erg. Should you choose to be the kind of erg that goes out and tries to pull others in that tries to bring unity among the different groups. Then I don't think you're you're getting in the way of respect, I think, because if you want to be respected, you have to give respect. And so all the things that we talk about, all the things that you can do, fight your bias, deal with your threat, response.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: be growth, have growth, mindset those things in an erg framework absolutely can build a culture of respect.
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Dr. David Rock: Hmm, yeah, interesting. It's a contentious one. Because,
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Dr. David Rock: you know, the the and the research is really complicated. And it's really easy to sort of say something, and it'd be taken out of context and shifted another way. But
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Dr. David Rock: you know ultimately the the and please don't you know, take me to task over this. But ultimately you want to celebrate differences, but really focus on shared goals. And if you just like celebrate differences
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Dr. David Rock: and focus on those differences. Without the umbrella of a shared goal. You can have a lot of outgroup, right? You can have a lot of us and them. You have the silo issue in companies. Right? If if you know, marketing is celebrating how amazing they are and how different they are to finance, it's not really going to be helpful unless marketing does that finance does that. But then there's this overarching.
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Dr. David Rock: you know, understanding of what they've got to do together.
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Dr. David Rock: and the incredible work they've got to do together, and how much they need each other.
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Dr. David Rock: So so, so the the full story is you want, you know, you want to celebrate differences. But you want to also really focus on similarities
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Dr. David Rock: and and have that that superordinate goal and and really focus people on that. You think about the planet. Right? We should all have a common goal in the planet of of, you know.
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Dr. David Rock: having a sustainable, healthy environment right? Living in Florida right now, it's quite poignant for me. I'm in Miami. We were fine, but couple 100 miles away that we're not fine at all. And you know people lost their whole livelihoods and everything, and and, you know, like a hundred year storm
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Dr. David Rock: and and and so, you know, as a planner, we should have this superordinate goal of all working together to make the environment more sustainable. And then celebrating the individuality of countries like, you know, Spain's an amazing country. Spain doesn't have to look like Germany, right? Germany doesn't have to look like Italy. They can all be amazing, different countries. But we should all be working together on this goal
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Dr. David Rock: in a company a similar sort of thing should be happening. It's kind of both.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: You're right, and I think that you something you said just came immediately. That's where respect comes in. Because if you understand that there's these individual differences. And then you understand what the value of that difference is to whatever that shared goal is you're starting to respect
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Janet Stovall, CDE: because you're valuing. You're valuing that difference. And so you're right, just celebrating it and saying we are different.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: That doesn't help but celebrating it
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Janet Stovall, CDE: as in recognizing it and acknowledging it, and then saying, Now, how does that difference
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Janet Stovall, CDE: bring value? That's when you start getting into the area of respect.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, yeah.
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Dr. David Rock: yeah, no, really true. And you know, and and such a such a great point to start to close off, I think, because I can't say anything more intelligent than that, Janet. So respect your incredible deep thinking and and knowledge in this space. So I'm gonna say, Emma, back to you.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Thanks. No, I this has been a great discussion. I know. You know. Maybe if there's 1 last thing you can think about, you know, suggesting as we approach, you know, what really triggered us to have this 2 part series is, you know, the change in, you know.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: in incivility or the increase in incivility. Whether it's perceived real or not, we're we're thinking that it is, it might only get worse.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: What would you suggest as whether individual contributors or leaders. As we continue going forward, what are the what are the lasting words you'd like to send out.
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Dr. David Rock: Janet, after you.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: Be intentional.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: be intentional. Understand that this is not something that happens organically, it takes intention. So if you respect to David's point, respect doesn't just happen. You have to decide that you want to work and create it. And it's necessary.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah. For me. It's like,
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Dr. David Rock: it's like, don't invalidate people's perspectives. It doesn't mean you have to agree. But you're not invalidating and then quickly get to shared goals. I think this is a time where organizations need to just like focus on focus people on the missions that they need to achieve. But just keep bringing people back to that. That's the you know. That's the goal overall.
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Dr. David Rock: I think so. Fantastic. Great conversation! Thanks, Emma. Thanks, Janet, what a great rich conversation! And for those who haven't heard to say this a thousand times, hold the date for the summit. It's gonna be amazing. October 29 and 30,
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Dr. David Rock: some some new research, some really powerful new research on accountability and AI and creativity all sorts of really cool things. I'm excited. So we'll see you probably next week. And yeah, try and hold the date for the 29th and 30th of October for the summit coming up.
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Dr. David Rock: Thanks, Emma, thanks, Janet. Take care of yourself.
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Janet Stovall, CDE: Thank you. Bye, bye.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Bye.
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Shelby Wilburn: Thanks again for joining us today. We really appreciate it. We had our poll up. But let us know how we can help you in the future. As David said, summit 2024 is on the way. October 29th and 30.th You do not want to miss it. So, for all your information. You can visit summit.neuroleadership.com, and everything will be there that you can take in, and we hope to see you there
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Shelby Wilburn: if you enjoyed today's conversation, we also have our podcast your brain at work. So you can listen to that wherever you listen to your podcast and this is where we officially say farewell. So on behalf of our team behind the scenes. Thank you for being here each week, and we look forward to seeing you next week.