Recent events, including the SCOTUS Affirmative Action ruling affecting higher ed and the growing influence of diversity detractors, have cast a shadow of fear and misunderstanding over corporate DEI efforts. But there’s a better way forward. From debiasing standard operating practices to the promotion of inclusive environments, join NLI’s Janet Stovall, Dr. Brigid Lynn, and Travis Jones to explore actionable, neuroscience-based solutions designed to drive systemic transformation.
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Shelby Wilburn: Welcome back to another week of your brain at work. Live! I'm your host, Shelby Wolverine, for our regulars. We're happy to have you back, and for our newcomers, we're excited to have you here with us for the first time today
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Shelby Wilburn: in this episode, we're unpacking. How recent events have cast a shadow of fear and misunderstanding over corporate Dei efforts. However, our guests are here to show there's a better way forward from debiasing standard operating practices to promoting inclusive environments. We'll explore actionable, neuroscience-based solutions designed to drive systemic transformation. Now, as I quickly share some housekeeping notes drop in the comments or the chat where you're joining in from today.
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Shelby Wilburn: we are recording today's session. So if you're interested in a replay, be on the lookout for an email later today, that email is going to include a survey for feedback as well as a number of resources that are aligned with today's conversation. We suggest putting your phone on. Do not disturb quitting out of your email and messaging apps. So you can really get the most out of today's discussion. And it's also going to help with your audio and video quality. And lastly, we love interaction. So feel free to share your thoughts and comments with us in the chat.
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Now, to get this show underway. I'm going to introduce our speakers.
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Shelby Wilburn: Our first guest for today is a researcher at the Neuro Leadership Institute, where she helps clients achieve goals through targeted research and measurement design. Prior to joining and Nli, she applied inclusion research to develop leader tools to improve military force, readiness. She holds a master's of public health and a Ph. D. In community psychology, a warm welcome to our research team's subject matter. Expert on diversity, equity, inclusion at and Nl. Dr. Bridget Lin. Thanks for being here today, Bridget.
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Brigid Lynn: Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it always
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Shelby Wilburn: for our next guest. A long history of driving change and building cultures in large complex organizations has given her deep expertise around Dei practices and principles, especially in the area of communications. In fact, she broke barriers as one of the first, and for a long time only Black Sea level speech writers in the Fortune 100, her 3 Ted presentations challenging businesses to get serious about inclusion, have collectively over 2.5 million views.
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Shelby Wilburn: her superpowers applying neuroscience to solve Dei challenges, building actionable Dei frameworks and brokering honest Dei conversations among top leaders. Please join me in welcoming. Analyze global head of De Andi, Janet M. Stowbal.
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Janet Stovall: Thanks for being here today, Janet, glad to be here, Shelby
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Shelby Wilburn: always, and our moderator for today is a senior consultant and facilitator at the Neuro Leadership Institute. He holds a bachelor's degree in philosophy and a Master's degree in theology and sociology. Along with completed coursework in a Phd. Program for organizational science, he has 15 years of experience, designing and delivering transformative learning experiences for organizations in the public and private sectors.
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Shelby Wilburn: He has delivered speaking engagements for companies like Disney and Linkedin, as well as many colleges and universities across the Us. Before joining Nanoi. He spent the last 10 years as a strategist and consultant in the Dei space. Please join me in welcoming senior consultant and facilitator at the Neuro Leadership Institute. Travis Jones.
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Shelby Wilburn: Great to have you here for the first time, Travis, and we're passing it over to you.
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Travis Jones: That's right. Thank you so much. Shelby. I am a why ball your brain at work long time. Listener. First time. Moderator. But I'm incredibly excited. I'll tell you why, in just a bit but I wanted to kind of share with you some early resources already before we get into today's
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Travis Jones: content. And one of the reasons why Bridget, Janet and I are all with you today is because we've got a white paper that we've been working really hard on that. We'll be rolling out in the next couple of weeks, and you all are kind of getting a first taste at some of the thinking that's in that white paper. And so if you're willing now, even in the chat, if you're have interest in that, basically, the paper is
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Travis Jones: kind of our argument of moving from making the business case for diversity, equity, and inclusion to what we're calling the impact case for diversity, equity and inclusion. And you'll see some of that thinking as we kind of have a conversation today about a lot of the context and the state of Dei that shaped some of the research and data driven themes in that paper.
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Travis Jones: And so we'll be dropping lots of resources for you all throughout the session. But we wanted this session to be much more like a conversation, to kind of give you some of the background on the thinking of our kind of current point of view around Dei now and going forward.
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Travis Jones: And I just have to say I'm selfishly, really privileged and excited about today's session cause I'm seeing Bridget and Janet smile. Now we were smiling to each other as we're preparing for this, because we really wanted to invite you all in to the way that we collaborate on a daily basis at in Li Bridget and Janel probably killed me for saying this, but 2 of my favorite people in the world, incredibly brilliant scholar practitioners I already saw. There's some folks that are like super fans of Janet.
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Travis Jones: Which is not surprising, but I'll add.
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Travis Jones: especially behind the scenes people that embody the growth mindset that we talk a lot about at Nla. And so hopefully, you'll see that in our conversation today, for sure. And you know, more of the academic work will be rolling out. But I love having colleagues that are willing to ask some real deep questions
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Travis Jones: follow the data. You can see we've titled this session clarity, not chaos. And so I just feel really honored to have colleagues where we can really kind of you know, challenge each other and sharpen each other's thinking. So without further ado, we're gonna you know, dive right in and in the spirit of inviting conversation today. We wanna hear from you all
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Travis Jones: these 2 headlines that you see here are just reflective of. We've got dozens of slides with similar headlines
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Travis Jones: that in some ways capture this chaotic or complex environment surrounding Dei work.
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Travis Jones: So as you can see this first one here, America is under attack inside the anti-dei Crusade.
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Travis Jones: right? This very doom and gloom kind of pessimistic picture of of Dei, and sometimes those headlines are about, you know, challenges of measurement with Dei or deis effectiveness or not. The second headline is from the opposite side of this of the spectrum, so the buzz around Dei is great. Retreat is overblown
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Travis Jones: and data backed, proof of the opposite abounds, and this is reflective of a large body of headlines that point to a much more optimistic picture of Dei. So part of what we want to do today is start to make some sense of these 2 very divergent messages of of what's going on in and around Dei
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Travis Jones: but I'm curious from you all. And then this is like amazing. We've got such a high participation. A lot of folks on today. But we want to hear from you. What are you experiencing in your industries.
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Travis Jones: in your particular organizations? And this is a question that we like to ask di practitioners a lot, and we get widely, you know, different responses. How are you feeling and experiencing the environment? So share with us? Is it more on the the gloom side? Are you feeling the pressure of some of the attacks and the resistance? Has your organization kind of followed this kind of path of resisting some of that.
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Travis Jones: those doom and gloom headlines.
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Travis Jones: And we've got myself as the moderator today, and folks behind the scenes will be taking into account what you share with us throughout.
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Travis Jones: In similar Y ball, your brain at work fashion. We wanna hear questions from you. We're gonna keep the flow moving pretty quick today. And whatever time we have left which we should, we wanna make sure that we get to some real questions for you so that it's not just our voices today, but we're drawing on your experiences and expertise as well. So feel free to share that in the chat. We'll kind of be pulling out threads from what you all are sharing as we go.
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Travis Jones: But, Janet, I'm going to turn it over to you now, I mean, help us make sense of how are you thinking about the current climate?
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Travis Jones: You know what we're seeing around these messages, and if you can share kind of how you've, you know, made sense of this picture and get us started on the the context that we're dealing with.
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Janet Stovall: Okay, well, thanks, Travis.
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Janet Stovall: Well, from what we can see, what I can see, there are basically 3 driving forces that are creating all this chaos. The first is economic fears.
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Janet Stovall: you know, economic uncertainty makes companies focus on their immediate survival.
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Janet Stovall: and that can make them neglect the long term benefits of diversity programs.
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Janet Stovall: The industry terms are a recessionary mindset and loss aversion, but it analyze seeds model. They represent a combination of distance and safety bias.
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Janet Stovall: Tough times trigger our distance bias basically making us focus on the near and our safety bias, which is about avoiding losses. And all of this can make the long-term benefits of Dei seem less important, despite the value that we know they have.
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Janet Stovall: The second issue we have is societal pushback.
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Janet Stovall: that if you look at that headline, the Chavascript, the first one, that's what we're talking about. But there's a concept in science called regression toward the mean.
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Janet Stovall: which simply means that if something seems extreme at first, there's a tendency for it to go back to being more average over time.
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Janet Stovall: Big step forward, big big pushback to the usual way of doing things. And if we think about this in terms of advancing diversity, equity, and inclusion.
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Janet Stovall: George Floyd's murder. COVID-19. For all the wrong reasons. 2020 was a big step forward for diversity, equity, inclusion in the business world.
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Janet Stovall: And so what I believe we're seeing is this, pushback is just the regression happening moving back towards what was considered normal before. The important thing about knowing this is that said helps us understand that facing some resistance is a normal part of making meaningful change. Bottom line is, we don't like disruption.
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Janet Stovall: but, as always say in an inequitable world, equity itself is disruption.
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Janet Stovall: The third and the biggest thing that we're seeing is Scotus's affirmative action decision.
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Janet Stovall: Now that ruling does not affect corporate America, it's only about academic institutions for now.
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Janet Stovall: But organizations are reacting already.
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Janet Stovall: and the thing is, it's it's fair to say decision could have implications at some point for the workplace. In fact, there is precedent for this in 1,978 regents of the University of California versus Baki eliminated quotas in higher Ed.
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Janet Stovall: The ruling said that while race could be considered as one of the many factors in college admissions.
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Janet Stovall: you couldn't have strict racial quotas that was unconstitutional.
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Janet Stovall: So in response, most corporations adjusted their De I strategies to align with that legal framework.
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Janet Stovall: Well, last year Scotus came in and did eliminate the other part of that Baki decision. But the part that Baki left intact.
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Janet Stovall: and so some organizations are strong scrambling to do exactly what they did before, and corporate councils and Cdos are gonna war the wills.
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Janet Stovall: But here's the thing. The ruling will affect the talent pipeline. But companies are cutting recruitment programs.
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Janet Stovall: The ruling could affect race based programs. So companies are cutting programs that allow them to leverage diversity.
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Janet Stovall: The ruling might have some short term implications, but organizations are responding by changing established policy. The problem is, they're not just adjusting amid all this chaos, they're making wide, comprehensive cuts.
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Janet Stovall: and in some cases that means they're cutting indiscriminately.
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Janet Stovall: Now that's the bad news is driving all the negative headlines. Travis. Tell us some good news.
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Travis Jones: all right. And and, by the way, thank you all for what you're sharing in the chat, I think we just collectively made the case that we're all experiencing the climate in very different ways.
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Travis Jones: probably depending on. You know, the industry, the organizations you represent, something else we talk a lot about is not. Everyone approaches Dei through the same paradigm or the same lens? Obviously, Nli, we pride ourselves on being data driven and following the science. And it's the same way when we kind of look at at the market.
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Travis Jones: So some of the data you're seeing here is our attempt at creating some clarity with all this chaos. So the good news is many. In fact, most organizations. Aren't paying attention to the headlines. And so you see that here, in this first data point, and we'll share some of these resources with you. By the way, in the chat, if they're useful. This was a 2,024 really recent survey by littler
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Travis Jones: only one of C suite executives had decreased their Dei commitments in the past year.
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Travis Jones: Not the same kind of catchy headline, right as America's under attack. In fact, 57% of survey respondents increased their Dei efforts.
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Travis Jones: In a similar report by the Conference board. Also this year, 63% plan to focus on attracting more diverse workforce. And and in that same study no Chros plan to scale back their Dei initiatives, programs and policies.
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Travis Jones: So I think what's coming up for me is, yes, we have to pay attention to the headlines. And, as Janet said, the headlines are having real life impacts. But I think, especially as evidence-based practitioners, folks that really believe in the power of science. We should be just as loud about these data points that what is actually moving the needle?
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Travis Jones: We have had the good fortune and kind of honor to work with. Kenji Yoshino, who, if you're new or familiar to his work, he's an esteemed legal scholar at the Nyu school of law, and also a Dei practitioner, and he has also been a guest on this show previously.
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Travis Jones: and most recently he was part of a keynote panel that we had really addressing this issue in particular, and in much more detail.
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Travis Jones: And so if you're not familiar with his work, we'd encourage you to to to check that out. And, in fact, we'll share a resource with you. You all can have access to that session from our summit conference. In fact, Tony just dropped the link there where you can access it. Thank you, Tony. But I'm gonna turn it over to bridget, who's gonna kind of walk us through some of Kenji's work, and how that relates to our own thinking and our own solutions. In this space. So Bridget, over to you.
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Brigid Lynn: thanks, Travis. And I. Also just wanna say, it's great to be here, and I love working with you and Janet.
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Brigid Lynn: I find myself being energized. When I talk with you and think with you. Y'all just amazing. So it's it's exciting to be here. And so I had the pleasure of hearing Jana and Kenji talk through some of this thinking at our October summit,
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Brigid Lynn: and the 3 forms of legally safe work that Kenji and David define are de biasing work, ambient work and universal work. And these types of work live within organizational priorities, habits and systems. And
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Brigid Lynn: I'll briefly introduce you to analyze Ph. S. Change model and the next slide, but for now, as you'll see up on the slide, it just might be helpful to think about priorities as the Y
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Brigid Lynn: habits as the behaviors and systems as the environment that shape behaviors.
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Brigid Lynn: Okay? So the biasing work takes bias out of systems through practices designed to mitigate bias.
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Brigid Lynn: And I, we think of these initiatives of really living in habits and systems. So, for example, implicit bias programs can build habits that help individuals mitigate bias during the hiring process.
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Brigid Lynn: And if behaviors designed to mitigate bias are anchored in support of systems, and I say that because you don't want the onus to be only on individuals to change. You want these systems to support that change, then you are more likely to achieve change
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Brigid Lynn: and an example of a system that would support mitigating bias during the hiring process would be something like removing stereotypical language from all job advertisements.
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Brigid Lynn: The next bucket is ambient work
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Brigid Lynn: and ambient work is policy and cohort initiatives that work to advance, workforce diversity overall. And these initiatives really live in priorities and systems, and they prioritize a variety of initiatives. So, for example, if an organizational priority really is to broaden diversity of an applicant pool.
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Brigid Lynn: then talent, acquisition systems can shape that behavior by conducting outreach to diverse colleges. and the last bucket, you see, is universal.
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Brigid Lynn: and that is really the work that's in place that helps every single employee in the organization. It's not designed for any specific demographic group. And these initiatives really live in priorities and habits. And an example is if an organization is prioritizing something like speaking up then, psychological safety programs can help
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Brigid Lynn: really help teams build habits and enable people to challenge each other and share mistakes and learn together. And so those are the buckets of work. And and because I talked about these types of work living in priorities, habits and systems, I just wanna take a minute to talk through our Phs change model
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Brigid Lynn: and so priorities are really all about the why that fuels action. they serve as that kind of steady point or constant point that can help people keep their direction in the midst of change.
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Brigid Lynn: It. Priorities also can be used as a way to drive our motivational brain networks. So really getting us motivated and engaged in behaviors.
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Brigid Lynn: Habits are everyday behaviors enacted by many people.
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Brigid Lynn: and one reason we think or we know behaviors are so important is it's really where the patterns of how we do things around here emerge.
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Brigid Lynn: That's why it's critical to have clarity around what people are expected to do directly connected to the priorities. Which is the why they should be engaging in specific behaviors and habits are those things that happen, our default behaviors that happen even during times of pressure and stress like we fall back on these particular behaviors. And that's why it's so important to shape habits.
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Brigid Lynn: And the last piece of the puzzle for effective and change really is that systems piece. And that's what enables workplace behaviors.
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Brigid Lynn: Systems are essentially the environment. That change takes place in that allows change to either succeed or fail, that systems can help or they can get in the way.
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Brigid Lynn: and it's important that the systems in place are really intentionally enabling habits you want to build. Otherwise they're likely undermining the behaviors of the desired behaviors. You want to build and when people think of systems, they often think of talent systems like performance, management or talent, acquisition and learning and development.
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Brigid Lynn: But systems really are broader than that. They're what I like to think of is like the total environment that work gets done in which includes the processes, the technology we use the organizational cultural influences. So kind of all of that.
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Brigid Lynn: And both our Phs change model and our Dei work are angered and researched. And we've been thinking and researching and writing about di related topics for several years, and
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Brigid Lynn: we work to take our research and translate it for our clients to work with our clients to reach their their desired changes, and we have a long history of working with clients and diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives.
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Brigid Lynn: And, as it has been mentioned, even in this chaotic environment, many organizations really are still coming to us to do diversity, equity, and inclusion work, and Janet and Travis are at the forefront of that. They're doing a lot of that work. And I know, Travis, you you are talking a lot with clients. What are you and Janet hearing? From clients?
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Travis Jones: Thank you, Bridget. So lots of things, and similar to the what we ask, clients. How are you experiencing the climate? You get a range of answers. So we've tried to kind of bucket some of the big 3 questions that we see, and that we're thinking through and addressing with clients some of them we've just now kind of addressed clients that are feeling the pressure of the headlines, or some of that internal polarization questioning? Is anything safe anymore
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Travis Jones: that misunderstanding that Kenji tries to be really clear about in his work of you know what is still legally safe, right? And when we should, in fact, kind of double down on the importance of of Dei and its impact on on business decisions.
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Travis Jones: So that's one. And then there's folks that you know think about we're doing and committed to Dei work. But we may have to shift a bit, or maybe for some folks a lot in how we do this work. And so there are other headlines out there kind of talking about the kind of quiet approach to Dei.
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Travis Jones: Which you'll see a lot of this thinking in the white paper. Janet will get into much more of it now. But basically, this bucket of questions is for folks that wanna continue doing the work. But wanna think strategically.
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Travis Jones: and then, finally, you know, folks that kind of wonder. What about all the progress that we've made so far.
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Travis Jones: all the investment in in Dei work as an industry? Where does all that go. And what happens to this momentum in this current climate? So in the next section, Janet will kind of talk to you about how our own point of view
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Travis Jones: and our research addresses each of those and then I see some really good questions in the chat, so I'll I'll do my best to kind of answer those as we go. But keep those coming. We're not ignoring you. We're kind of saving those for the end. We've got a team of folks collecting those. So if you've got questions, please share them in the chat with us
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over to you, Janet.
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Janet Stovall: Okay, well, let's talk about this way that we're thinking about
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Janet Stovall: while we create sort of some calm and some critical way of thinking. I'll admit all this chaos
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Janet Stovall: conventional for companies that want to gain.
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Janet Stovall: maintain, sustain what momentum they have amid all that chaos who are asking those questions that Travis just put up there. The solution is something that we're calling the impact case for Dei, you've heard the business case. You've heard the moral case. We're talking about the impact case now
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Janet Stovall: conventionally in practice and Dei practice and in thinking diversity has been seen as a problem to solve.
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Janet Stovall: Inclusion has been seen as feeling valued, and equity has been seen as fair people.
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Janet Stovall: But analyze impact case for Dei redefines conventional Dei, wisdom and practice via 3 key science-based frameworks. Number one, neuroscience which focuses on the behaviors. People are most likely to engage in
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Janet Stovall: number 2, complexity, science and integration and learning. That's really 2 together, which view diversity as complex and solution centric. And then finally, number 3, something called generative interactivity, which positions inclusive habits as the gears of social change, deeper understanding, cooperation, and equity.
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Janet Stovall: And this thinking is at the root of our approach.
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Janet Stovall: If organizations prioritize diversity, treating it not as a problem to be solved, but as something that solves problems by linking it directly to business goals. if they habitualize inclusion by enabling inclusive behavior that goes beyond helping people feel valued to allowing them to actually deliver some value.
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Janet Stovall: And then, if they systemize equity because equity isn't fair people, it is fair systems. If they do those things.
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Janet Stovall: then Dei can solve organizational problems, and it can improve organizational outcomes.
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Janet Stovall: Now, Travis mentioned it. Start with completing a white paper that explores this approach in depth, and it's gonna explain the science behind it all and offer some practical ways to implement it. And so, if you want to be among the first to get it, I saw rolling in the chat. But people were saying they interested. But if you want to be among the first at the end, there'll be a link that QR. Code that you can sign up to get that, and you'll get it as soon as it's ready.
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Janet Stovall: So now all that it's a lot to say, and there's a lot to process. It's a mouthful to say so. Here's our point of view, summed up. Simply
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Janet Stovall: interrupt bias in grain inclusion invoke systems. That's how organizations can get some real roi on their Dei
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Janet Stovall: is how they can Zykist proof their di efforts. And it's how they can get some clarity amid all this chaos.
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Janet Stovall: So the question is.
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Janet Stovall: how do we create clarity amid all this chaos?
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Janet Stovall: Well, the way we're looking at it is this. if to day's chaot chaotic DI space. And your organization's worried about that
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Janet Stovall: building the workforce of the future. If you're worried about doing that, if you're worried about thriving in the marketplace of the future.
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Janet Stovall: And if you're even worried about ensuring that your organization survives to see that future.
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Janet Stovall: then what you need to do right now is clear. You got to interrupt bias
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Janet Stovall: got ingrained inclusion. You got to invoke systems. and that's what analyze here to do.
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Janet Stovall: So in a nutshell. That's where we are. And Travis, I'll bounce it back to you.
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Travis Jones: Alright. Thank you, Janet, so we will.
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Travis Jones: and team correct me. If I'm wrong here, we'll go ahead and share how you all can access.
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Travis Jones: The new white paper when we officially roll it out. But we've got plenty of time to, I think. Answer some of the questions that have come up for you all which I think are, you know, really deep and challenging. So we may ask some of you all to to potentially elaborate on some of them. And Bridget, Janet and team you all let me know if some are
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Travis Jones: kind of standing out for you. So as I'm I'm looking at Danny's question here about so deep biasing doesn't horizontally line up with priorities, but rather systems etc. A little confusing. Please clarify.
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Brigid Lynn: I'll I'll take that. Yeah, no problem. And so what I'm gonna do is actually go back to that slide because it could be visually the confusion that happened. So here's the slide. I think Danny was referencing, and you're correct. It is not like one for one aligned here.
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Brigid Lynn: and when I was really thinking about this work and digging in it it there isn't a clear cut for bucketing these types of work across priority habits and systems. However.
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Brigid Lynn: in order to do the work, it really needs to be anchored in these things. And so, although there isn't this one to one, I think all of the work in some ways fits within the priorities, habits, and systems. And in order to maintain, change and get to change and get to the behaviors that are desired in organizations.
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Brigid Lynn: Then you have to anchor initiatives in priorities, habits, and systems. and so that's kind of where that is, and I might have created a little visual confusion. But I think it's kind of all of the the buckets.
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Travis Jones: Thank you, Bridget and Danny. Let us know if that generates more thoughts from you. If that was helpful. I think it relates to your your second question, Janet. You've got thoughts here, but
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Travis Jones: question about the inversion of Dei, the acronym diversity, inclusion and equity, you know, on the following slide, we we do lots of thinking about that as well. I'm sure you all do. We know now there are new industry norms about the order of those.
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Travis Jones: so I don't know how deep we want to go into that I've got some thoughts, but I know, Janet, this is kind of something you you talk a lot about. If you want to start us off. And
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Janet Stovall: okay, well, honestly, I believe that simply the reason we say de I is because the acronym DIE. Is die.
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Janet Stovall: and nobody wants to call it that. But if you think about how the work needs to happen.
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Janet Stovall: you have to focus on diversity first, because if you don't have diversity, you know, you're not having this conversation. Then you wanna do inclusion. And then you wanna make sure that you build the systems to support it. So when we set up our Pov, we don't try necessarily to write it that way, but I honestly believe that that's a lot of why it's that way, but of course, you know there are all kinds of acronyms out there. We have folks who do. Ide.
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Janet Stovall: Edi, we've seen all of those it's
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Janet Stovall: and I don't think any of them are wrong. I think really, whatever order you put it in.
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Janet Stovall: you should be able to say that that's how we, as an organization, approach this in a in a sequential order. But for our point of view, we believe that the order needs to be diversity to inclusion to equity. So that's why it's that way.
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Janet Stovall: No other reason.
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Travis Jones: Thank you, Janet and Andre, I think hopefully that helped when I use the language of like industry norms. That's kind of what I was thinking of, organizations that feel really strongly about edi
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Janet Stovall: etc. And I'll I'm looking for, you know, Travis Travis, can I follow up on that a little bit, too? I did a Linkedin Point post a little while ago, and so that I wasn't even gonna say Dei anymore. Now, I do it occasionally, because it is a shorthand. And it's it helps
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Janet Stovall: people understand what I'm talking about. But honestly, I wanna get away from that altogether. Because if you think about some of this pushback that's happening out there, the fact that we use the term Dei, or Ide, or whatever it takes some of the focus off what we're really trying to do. So when you have, people say things like Dei must die.
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Janet Stovall: Imagine if those people had to say diversity must die. inclusion must die. equity must die.
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Janet Stovall: I don't think they could just get away with saying it, so I have sort of make this personal goal that as much as possible. I'm gonna say it all the way out, diversity, equity, inclusion. And I think that that is something we should do all the terms like I despise bypock.
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Janet Stovall: What is that? So? My thing is, I tell people don't say bypock, look at it and say, the group you're talking about, part of the trouble we have, I think, in
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Janet Stovall: doing this work is that we have.
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Janet Stovall: We've made it so that
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Janet Stovall: we're not clear what we're doing all the time. So I'm all about clarity and but I should throw that in there.
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Brigid Lynn: II love that Janet and
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Brigid Lynn: ha! I think, in addition to being able to kind of hide behind language, it also muddles what good intention people are supposed to do.
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Brigid Lynn: And so for me
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Brigid Lynn: in my life I have so many like fringe worthy moments of what did I do? I wasn't my intention. My impact was awful.
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Brigid Lynn: but I think when I can really start saying, what does inclusion look like? What does bias look like? What does creating a equity look like in my day to day it becomes super important. And so for me, I really daily tried to reflect on, how am I
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Brigid Lynn: either enabling or harming the efforts I'm trying to make, and a lot of times that you have to get very specific. So even for me, we were working on something not long ago.
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Brigid Lynn: and I reached out and apologize to you because I was like, Hey, II totally just engaged and prove it again, bias, and I think it often takes that self reflection, that picking up the mirror and saying like.
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Brigid Lynn: even though I'm a good intending person. And I'm doing this work. What do, my, how do my actions
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Brigid Lynn: line up with diversity, inclusion, and equity? And what can I do each day to be better? And I think that is really important. You know, Danny, saying about diminishing acronyms diminish? I think they do, and they also diminish our accountability. And our reflection, and they confuse us in the work. Because, you know, when we say Dei, we have to stand back and say, what are we focusing on? Here is is diversity. The issue
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Janet Stovall: is inclusion. Issue is equity. The issue equity is usually the one that loses for the most part. But we, we lose track of what it is we're specifically trying to do so. I mean, I know the acronyms are there, and I know that they are shorthand and we're gonna keep using them. I'm gonna keep using them, even though I say, don't want to. But
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Janet Stovall: it is a matter of focusing, and something you said, too, about understanding what the term means for you. Let's roll that up to the organizational level. Organizations need to understand what that means. If they just say inclusion, what does that mean.
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Janet Stovall: you know, it means different things to different people. If I work for a company that is very liberal, very out there, you know. If I'm Ben and Jerry's, and I'm making weird named ice creams. Inclusion there means something very different than it does from a large, maybe entrenched utility company. Or a company that's, you know, 140 years old. It's inclusions gonna mean something different. So when we just take these acronyms.
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Janet Stovall: it takes away like you said, the accountability for doing something. If we can say I'm doing Dei, and nobody calls you on. What does that mean?
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Janet Stovall: A. The work doesn't get done. And B, you can't measure it, because if you don't know what you're doing, if you don't decide what inclusion means here, how you gonna tell people whether or not, they're being inclusive. How are you gonna define inclusive behavior? Because you don't know. And inclusion, as we say, is not just
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Janet Stovall: being nice to people. It is about creating an environment where people can use and leverage the diversity that you went through all that trouble to get, and that requires different things in different places and different times. It is very much conditional and situational. But you have to define it every time.
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Brigid Lynn: Yeah. And I think in defining that you have to get specific about making mistakes and owning behaviors. And
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Brigid Lynn: it actually. And Kenji's books say the right thing, which he was on the way. All talking about one of the things he really is is talking about is having a growth mindset when it comes specifically to Dei
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Brigid Lynn: and I think that that really resonates with us at Nli, because growth mindset is such a vital part of our work, because it's all about learning. We want to be able to learn. We wanna engage in learning, and so often with diversity, equity, and inclusion work. People feel that they have to be perfect. And
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Brigid Lynn: I think that dispelling that myth of you're a good person or a bad person, if you're making mistakes, is super important, and it's more about reflecting and owning an understanding, and I think so much when I hear about unlearning.
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Brigid Lynn: I think about those tough moments in my life that put something in front of my face that helps me unlearn, cause I think that's another piece of diversity, equity, inclusion, work that comes up is all about unlearning like I have been shaped by societal norms, and I have to be able to understand what that is and unlearn those default behaviors. I was talking to you all about
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Brigid Lynn: earlier in that each, and habits like these are default behaviors. If I'm not willing to examine them and think about where they come from. Then I'm not able to change and learn. And I think that's where that growth mindset piece really is important for organizations when they're talking about diversity, equity, inclusion work, and I would love to hear from you and Travis on how you feel about that as well.
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Brigid Lynn: making mistakes like in the most vulnerable work.
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Janet Stovall: I make mistakes all the time, and that in the bottom line is this, if diversity and equity and inclusion were easy.
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Janet Stovall: we wouldn't be having this conversation. I wouldn't have a job. Everybody would do it if it was easy. Everybody would do it, and they get it right. It's not the nature of the fact that you are talking about. Diversity means you're talking about difference. And it is crazy to think that if you are dealing with situations that are different and perspectives that are different and people that are different, that you're gonna get it right all the time, because you're not
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Janet Stovall: to you, to what you're saying. The truth is, you lean into that.
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Janet Stovall: You know you you do the best you can do. You try cause you do have to try if you really wanna if you really wanna do this work and be in this work and care about this work, you have to take some responsibility to try. But you have to be willing to say I made a mistake.
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Janet Stovall: and I'm going to learn from it, cause it's not cool to just say, you know. Sorry that you that's you know. That was what's about. I say? An apology without action is manipulation, and that's what it is. So you do have to be willing to say, I make mistakes, and I correct mistakes, and I make another one. But I don't make the same one twice, and it's a process. It is definitely a process.
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Travis Jones: I mean, II think I'd be remiss if I didn't.
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Travis Jones: you know kind of emphasize at least one of our angles at Nla. To this work is the advantage of grounding our work in neuroscience. You know the the complexity of the brain and the way our brains are wired you know, as a good starting point for lots of folks you know, in their di journeys. And so someone asked the question, well, how do you interrupt bias? You know one of our starting places is our seeds model.
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Travis Jones: And so if you're familiar with our work, it's you know you're probably familiar with that as well. But it's one way that we use language. To kind of explain where these biases come from.
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Travis Jones: And as Bridget said, you know, especially as you know, assist gendered straight white male from the South. I embody lots of these dominant group identities. I've been shaped by a society and a culture that has created biases of things that I don't see or can't see and so, starting with the brain is at least one way to have that both. And conversation.
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Travis Jones: Yeah, no, we're shaped. We always say, if you have a brand, you have bias. So we're shaped. By the way, that our brain processes the world, and we're shaped by our society in our culture. And so that's kind of what came up for me about the importance of language is like labeling those things.
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Janet Stovall: And the question about interrupting bias. We use the word interrupt
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Janet Stovall: intentionally, because you can't get rid of bias. You cannot break it, you can't eliminate it, but you can mitigate it.
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Janet Stovall: and that's why we use the term. Interrupt. In this case you can interrupt it, and you interrupt it, and then you do something once you do but it requires being willing to do it. It requires first accepting that you have it.
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Janet Stovall: you know, cause we see bias. People think. Oh, I'm saying, you know, I'm an ist. I'm racist. I'm sexist. I'm ableist.
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Janet Stovall: No, not necessarily. Some people are, but not necessarily. It is that you have bias. And when you take that bias and drop it into society, you have cognitive bias, the bias that you're born with that, let's keep you alive. That is evolved over time. But when you take cognitive bias and drop it into society, and you know you take. That is the nature, but it comes in nurture, it becomes implicit bias. And we all have that, too.
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Janet Stovall: and sometimes that's conscious, and sometimes it's unconscious. But wh. What it always is is it is something that drives some sort of a behavior, whether you it's something, a visible behavior, where it behaves you, it changes your behavior, and you have to interrupt that which means you have to first recognize. That's why we talk about labeling bias. You have to recognize that you're doing it. And the best thing in the world have a language to do that. And in an organization having a shared language means that you get to interrupt the bias
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Janet Stovall: in a way where you point a finger at the behavior and not at the person, and that makes it a whole lot easier think about to get other people than you know lean into trying to change things
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Brigid Lynn: absolutely. And I think part of that which is so important is that idea of systems that we talk about, because then you are not saying it is you you are saying it is us. And we have a system that's supporting this behavior. How can we figure that out?
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Brigid Lynn: And part of what I love about working on our team together is that we are able to really get into honest, truthful, challenging discussions. And I think we're able to do that in my mind, because we have set the stage for each other. To say.
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Brigid Lynn: this is how we work. We have a norm of how we work together.
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Brigid Lynn: and we're allowed to have these energizing, tough conversations and being able to do that. Yeah, Danny, put about psych safety absolutely. You have to have some level of psychological safety in order to really, have diversity, equity and inclusion work, flourish and having that psychological safety and this growth mind
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Brigid Lynn: that I think can really help organizations get clear about what it is they're trying to do to get comfortable with being uncomfortable and having tough conversations.
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Janet Stovall: And you build psych safety one team at a time. So I'm glad you talked about our team, you know Travis and Bridget, of being calm. I'm usually not. But but Travis and Bridget being calm, you cannot. You? You can't imagine what our meetings are like sometimes. But I truly do look forward to them.
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Janet Stovall: But you know I'd like to believe that our team has psychological safety. I'm fully aware that not every team at every company, not even the NLI
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Janet Stovall: has psychological safety because it is built one team at a time. But one team at a time is how you build a culture of psychological safety, because I do think that we have to be aware
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Janet Stovall: that people come to.
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Janet Stovall: whatever the task is, whatever the team is, with whatever baggage, whatever societal baggage they have, whatever historical baggage back baggage they have, you know, as an as a black woman.
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Janet Stovall: I walk into a team. I'm not walking in there the same way that Travis would.
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Janet Stovall: So yeah. So when I talk about psychological safety. We have to be aware that everybody comes with their own stuff.
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Janet Stovall: and
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Janet Stovall: you're not gonna get it right every time. But what you do is you say we recognize that there's diversity we value it. Cause that's the trick you gotta value. If you value diversity, it's a whole lot easier, then to make it psychologically safe. Because if it's not, you don't get that, you don't get the the benefit of that diversity. So I do believe that valuing. Diversity is a big part. And and then you can build psychological safety within a team.
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Travis Jones: This is great. I wanted to. We've we've probably got about 5 more minutes. So if there's some
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Travis Jones: kind of burning questions or questions that you feel like we've overlooked, put them in the chat. Kind of refresh them for us now. But I wanted to elevate Liz's question, because I think it's a good plug for what you're seeing here on the screen. Diversity solves problems. Diverse teams are known to come up with better solutions can be hard to work on diverse teams, even though there's better ways to help diverse teams work better together. I keep getting pushback
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Travis Jones: leaders don't want to spend the time
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Travis Jones: suggestions, and you know, something that's coming up for me is this was like such a privilege to work with Bridget, who has previously published her own work.
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Travis Jones: With a team of folks on the cultures of inclusion. So it was great to just say everybody says the word inclusion. What do we actually mean by that? And to get into some of the research? So, as you see here you ask a lot of people, even industry, leaders, and many even academics. Inclusion is usually defined as a sense of feeling, respected or feeling a sense of belonging
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Travis Jones: which, of course, is a part of the ingredients. Right? But what about the actions of the habits of inclusion? So to your point, Liz, the hard work for me. The challenging is, how do you build in those habits that tap the diversity
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Travis Jones: right? And so some of what you'll see in the the White Paper is some of that research on what those inclusive habits like look like from an empirical lens, and that might be a way to draw leaders in.
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Travis Jones: So, especially if they tend to dismiss inclusion as just something that's a fleeting feeling, or everyone feels included.
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Travis Jones: yeah, I'd love for you to have your belonging bit, but you know something that is a a objective that we can measure right?
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Travis Jones: So I don't know if you have thoughts there team. But I'll look and see if there's any final questions, and we'll begin to to wrap up.
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Janet Stovall: Okay. yeah. But, Danny, Danny said, it belonging sounds soft to me. I have a very strong opinion about the word belonging, and some of you have probably heard it, but I believe that when we say it.
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Janet Stovall: We talk about it in one of 2 ways. We either talk about giving people a sense of belonging, or we talk about building spaces of belonging, and you can do neither of those just like I talked about that baggage that comes in.
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Janet Stovall: You can't give somebody a sense of belonging cause. You don't know why they feel like they don't belong, and for different reasons. And if you do that, if you say I'm gonna give you, I'm gonna give everybody. A sense of belonging where you're saying a is that there's some universal feeling that everybody should have. But you're putting the onus of inclusion on the person that's excluded.
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Janet Stovall: By the same token, if you say you're gonna build a space of belonging, what you're saying is, we built this space and we built it you should come belong. You can't do that because people come differently, and if you haven't co-created that space with the people who have to live in it.
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Janet Stovall: There's not no guarantee that they're gonna belong. You're saying that this is universal. You should be there. So what you can do.
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Janet Stovall: what is actionable is inclusion, and that is about defining what inclusion looks like. In the first place, what it means, and then working to create the behaviors that get you there, then you don't necessarily create a space of belonging. But you give you create a space that people have the opportunity
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Janet Stovall: to belong to. So that's my little. That's my sermon on belonging. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
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Brigid Lynn: and I think an important part of that, too, is part of valuing. Diversity is making sure that people are in a environment, a space that they can leverage their full potential.
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Brigid Lynn: And as we talk about so much here and a lie when you are in a state of threat.
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Brigid Lynn: you are not able to have all of your cognitive capacity driven towards solving whatever problem you're working to solve. So, therefore your full potential is diminished.
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Brigid Lynn: And so for me, a lot of inclusion work is about, how do we make sure that people are able to contribute to their full potential in a way that they are not threatened at work. And the truth of the matter is, many people are threatened at work, and so we've got to think through, what does that look like? And how do we create environments that allow people the space and and time and resources they need to think.
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Brigid Lynn: And I think that's an important part of it.
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Janet Stovall: Like we say, inclusion is not feeling. Value is being able to provide value, and if you provide value, you do fit. Do you do feel value if you can, if you're if you're contributing. But if the environment doesn't let you contribute.
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Janet Stovall: you're never going to feel like you include it, anyway.
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Brigid Lynn: and the contribution piece to me, is is one is another piece of the puzzle, because on top of that. It's then how are those contributions leveraged and valued? So I do think it is really putting different pieces under the microscope at different times, and being willing to do that
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Janet Stovall: absolutely.
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Brigid Lynn: And I put our white paper slide up too. I saw so many things in the chat when I was trying to catch up on it. So I put that there.
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Travis Jones: Yeah, no, II appreciate all the the interest team unless you all have anything else. I was gonna pass it over to Shelby to wrap us up and thank you. To all of you for your high levels of engagement. It's been a pleasure working with my colleagues and hearing from you all. We hope the session was useful for you. We'll hope you'll join us again. But take care whatever time of the day and part of the world you're joining us from
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you.
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Brigid Lynn: Thanks everybody.
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Shelby Wilburn: Thank you so much, Travis, Janet and Bridget for today's discussion. It was so wonderful, and we appreciate your time that you shared as always. Now we are closing. So let us know how we can help you, we'll share a poll. And how do you want to work with us in the future? If you enjoy today's conversation and you'll love, our podcast so wherever you listen to your podcast check out your brain at work.
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Shelby Wilburn: live, there are resources available also as well on the website. And we'll be sending more in our email later today. But on behalf of our team and everyone behind the scenes, thank you so much for being here, and we'll see you again next Friday.