Join us for a thought-provoking webinar hosted by the NeuroLeadership Institute, featuring Dr. David Rock and Dr. Emma Sarro. Discover the groundbreaking science behind brain-based learning design and how to apply it to create more impactful and memorable training experiences. In this engaging session, you'll learn: Key principles of neuroscience-driven learning design Strategies for effective facilitation that inspires and engages your learners Practical tips to implement these principles in your corporate training programs Whether you're a corporate trainer, a leader, or a learning and development professional, this webinar will equip you with the knowledge and tools to elevate your training programs and drive better results.
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Shelby Wilburn: Welcome back to season 11 of your brain at work. Live! We took a few weeks off, but now we're returning with new topics and insights for the fall for regulars. We're happy to have you back, and for our newcomers welcome. We're excited to have you here with us today for the 1st time
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Shelby Wilburn: in this episode we'll be diving into the science behind brain based learning design and applying it to create memorable training experiences. Now, as I quickly share some housekeeping notes, drop in the comments or chat box where you're joining in from today.
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Shelby Wilburn: We are recording today's session. So if you're interested in a replay be on the lookout for an email later today. That email is also going to include a survey for feedback as well as a number of resources that are aligned with today's conversation. We suggest putting your phone on. Do not disturb quitting out of your email and messaging apps. So you can really get the most out of today's discussion. And it's also going to help with your audio and video quality. And we love interaction. So feel free to share your thoughts and comments with us in the chat.
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Shelby Wilburn: Now it's time to introduce our speakers, for today.
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Shelby Wilburn: Our 1st guest is an Aussie turned New Yorker who coined the term neuro leadership when he co-founded Nli over 2 decades ago with a professional doctorate, 4 successful books under his name, and a multitude of bylines ranging from the Harvard Business Review to the New York Times, and many more a warm welcome for the co-founder and CEO of the Neuro Leadership Institute. Dr. David Rock.
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Shelby Wilburn: Great to have you back, David.
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Dr. David Rock: And Shelby good to be back in start of start of fall.
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Shelby Wilburn: Yeah, season 11. And our moderator for today leads the research team at the Neuro Leadership Institute, where she focuses on translating cognitive and social neuroscience into actionable solutions for organizations, as well as to help communicate relevant research in an accessible manner for the public.
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Shelby Wilburn: Previously she was a professor at Dominican College and New York University, and a researcher at the Nathan Klein Institute. She holds a bachelor's degree from Brown University and a Phd. In neuroscience from New York University a warm welcome to the Senior Director of Research at Nli. Dr. Emma. Sorrow thanks for being here today, Emma, happy to be back, and I will pass it over to you.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah. Happy to be here. Thanks, Shelby. Hi, David, season 11.
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Dr. David Rock: Good to be back. Good to be back, you know. This whole thing started March 2020, when the pandemic 1st hit, and I thought like it just felt like people would want to connect in some kind of regular, you know, framework. And we started every Friday at noon and here we are still in September 2024
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Dr. David Rock: and I think it's been. It's been tremendously helpful to us. And I I hear a lot of people.
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Dr. David Rock: I think we've had over a million downloads now, which is a little terrifying. But wonderful. And yeah, it's it pushes us in many ways to keep kind of thinking and responding to events happening in the world and researching. And so yeah, we really appreciate the opportunity to to continue continue to do this.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, absolutely. And I know we have a lot of regulars, and when I chat with some of them, they, you know, they log in every week, which is great. We love. We love that.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: So yeah, we're kicking off season 11. And actually, this time, I know a lot of you like our our series. We're kicking off 3 part series this week and appropriately all around learning and and development, and how we design best learning events and learning programs for organizations. So because we, you know, we underpin everything with neuroscience, we know that necessarily leads to the strongest memories and
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Dr. Emma Sarro: the greatest likelihood of real behavior change. But this whole thing really came from some of your experiences. Right, David. So where did this.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, I was. I was just before the summer I went. Kind of I guess you call it a tour or something. But I did the same event in
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Dr. David Rock: multiple cities in North America, multiple cities in Europe and multiple cities, in in Asia, Pacific and
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Dr. David Rock: essentially the same event, and it was really really interesting to see the trends. There was, you know, one of the sort of wonderful and terrible things all at once was just how consistent the people challenges are everywhere in the world that I went anyway, really, really consistent. And we were doing this event called a leadership development Mini summit focused on
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Dr. David Rock: you know the the way to really think about developing leaders next level and in every single session around the world. Just everyone just like stopped me in this one area and said, We want more. We want more. We want to understand this and that. That was basically, when we talked about like really designing
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Dr. David Rock: leadership experiences in a whole different way, like people were really really hungry to to know how to make leadership development more effective in a very kind of you know, hands-on way, not just conceptually like, what do we do? What do we do?
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Dr. David Rock: And we ended up focusing on focusing it on that and
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Dr. David Rock: it just I sort of put 2 and 2 and 2 together and got, you know, 10, which is that there's this tremendous pressure at the moment on on leadership development.
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Dr. David Rock: for lots of reasons, and a tremendous pressure on learning generally. Like all any kind of learning like a huge amount of pressure on these things. And and actually one of the one of the really good things to do when you need a, you know. A breakthrough is sort of take a blank slate and start with the science and see where there might be insights
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Dr. David Rock: from the science rather than sort of tweak what you have like. Sometimes, if you need a real breakthrough.
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Dr. David Rock: you don't want to tweak what you have, you want to start again.
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Dr. David Rock: And kind of start with a blank slate. And I you know this is this is
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Dr. David Rock: It's it's well known in industry. You know China, for example, this is sounds like a complete segue, but or non segue. But China, for example, has had a lot of kind of opportunities in the last decade in particular, to completely kind of leapfrog manufacturing against the West, because they've had a blank slate, and they've just kind of taken the latest ideas and started, you know, started with what the science says today. And
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Dr. David Rock: you know, didn't have the decades and decades of systems and things that they just, you know, they had to build on right. And in a similar way, I think if you could sort of take a bit of a blank slate and say, Well, let's let's start with the science today. What do we know? How do we build on that forward to do things really, really differently.
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Dr. David Rock: And I think that's the opportunity right now, because the we don't need a 5% improvement in effectiveness of learning or leadership development. We need like a 2 or 300%
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Dr. David Rock: jump in the effectiveness of the of you know where we are now, and I just don't think you get there by tweaking, and, you know, making the slides prettier.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, absolutely. And you know. And this is not just your own experiences. We see this. I mean by taking a a blank slate approach which I love. And you know, looking into like, what are the experiences of employees right now, and organizations, there's clearly a need for a huge change in how we upskill individuals, what we, how we develop learning, how we develop leaders or just employees in their positions and allow them to move around in the organization, right?
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah. So I think you know, today, we wanted to dig into like some of the foundational thinking around design of of learning and leadership programs. And we'll put those together in a bucket, right learning programs of any sort. And leadership programs. Right? But there's design of them. And then there's the actual delivery of them, or facilitation and delivery right? So kind of 2 halves design, facilitation. So you know what we wanted to today was dig into what the research is saying, what our point of view is, and and just some.
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Dr. David Rock: So some like challenges, some kind of provocations, I guess. Of ways to think about starting with a blank slate, how you might do it, what's possible. And then I think next week we're doing a session on designing large events. We're seeing a lot of large events come back like the 100 person or 300 person, you know, leadership, retreat, or the annual conference or even the small retreat. So so what's involved in designing these larger events? We've
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Dr. David Rock: been involved in that for a long, long time. Both our own and designing other people's. I think you'll find that interesting, especially if you're in that space. And then the 3rd week we're doing something. We'll we'll talk briefly about today, which is learning audits something we've started. We started in the pandemic which is essentially putting some real analysis to your entire learning.
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Dr. David Rock: Ecosystem in an organization and getting some really helpful and powerful insights about where the breakthroughs could be as well as where the tweaks might be. But so we'll talk about that. Excuse me in some depth in the 3, rd in the 3rd session. So that's that's where we are.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, yeah, I mean, and if and the thing is, it makes sense for us to dramatically change what we're doing. I mean, not only from, you know, we'll cover some of the industry statistics coming up right now, but also that we know so much more about learning and how the brain learns, and a lot of industries are tapping into that. Like social media. For instance, it taps right into how we learn best, and that's why it pulls us so strongly and changes our behavior so easily
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Dr. Emma Sarro: because it it's tapped into that research. And so why not do the same thing, you know. Look at that most updated research. We know so much more about how the brain learns socially, like online and virtual spaces. All of that that we're using right now at work.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'd love to to hear some comments from the audience in a moment. But I think the the pressures on learning I'd be, I'd be curious to hear kind of what? Why, folks think there's such pressure on learning from from my perspective.
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Dr. David Rock: Obviously there's the there's the. There's the broad, upskilling, reskilling movement that's happening right? And what what's happening? Not just with AI, but many technologies just being interconnected. And you know, all sorts of technologies are changing. The game is, there is? There's this massive acceleration of
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Dr. David Rock: of of things you need to learn, and but also the half life of those skills are really decreasing. So you might, you know, learn a computer program, you know, 10 years ago it would last, for you know your career or 5 years. Yeah, now you'll learn something. That program is like irrelevant in 2 years or 3 years, or something else. So the half-life of skills that we're learning has really come. Come down significantly.
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Dr. David Rock: The amount we need to learn has gone up, and the time we have to learn has gone down right so broadly. There's this pressure on learning that way and then on leadership itself.
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Dr. David Rock: It's really interesting. Just we've been studying this, and we'll talk more about this at our summit in in October, but about half the skills that leaders need to execute day to day are completely new, and they were not trained for
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Dr. David Rock: how to manage a hybrid workplace right how to think about AI, how to deal with a very, very divided audience, how to deal with a very, very overwhelmed population like these kinds of things that we're not trained for and really skilled in or practiced or learned from mentors. It's like
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Dr. David Rock: new. And then the other half of skills like, you know, understand? People motivate them and develop them. Just basic things for leaders. Right? Those skills have actually become harder to execute
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Dr. David Rock: when I think about understanding people in a hybrid world, harder to do, but actually more important understanding people in a hybrid world and motivating them, developing them. Even more important in a hybrid world. So half the skills are new, the other half are harder and more urgent and more important. And so what we're seeing is that you know, a leader who was pretty good before, is now below par
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Dr. David Rock: and a leader who was below par before is just not effective at all.
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Dr. David Rock: They might have sort of struggled through. And now you kind of need to be a really really effective leader just to deliver, you know, reasonable results because of the challenges. So so I think there's those 2 things. It's sort of the the upscaling, reskilling revolution. And there's the the pressure on how difficult it is to lead a to lead. Both of those things are saying. We just. We need a breakthrough in learning. What? What do folks think? Let's get some comments. I see some comments coming in interesting ones.
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Dr. David Rock: What are some comments coming in? Why do you think there's such pressure on learning. Maybe you want to pull some out, Emma.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah. Well, there's 1 Barbara. Added something really interesting which I think is absolutely true and kind of intermixed with the rate of change. And the need to learn new and relearn old skills is just this fear of change and fear based behavior. I mean that you're also facing this. And we know what happens when we're facing any kind of uncertainty, or even any kind of fear. Uncertainty is that we avoid it and revert back to those old habits and those old ways of of working, and that that won't be successful. Facing all of the new challenges.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah. Yeah. And there's there's some some deep comments here. And and for those just listening we won't read all of them. I think there's some some really, you know, important comments here. I mean, one of the things around the pace of change from. And we saw a data data point on that which just blew my head off was it was a hundred 75%. What was the actual number, Emma, do you remember it was north of 170, wasn't it?
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Might have been over 200. I, some of our of our followers, might actually remember that. I I forget. But it was. It wasn't huge.
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Dr. David Rock: Was about a hundred 70 north of 170% increase in the pace of change in the last 5 years.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: 1 83, huh!
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Dr. David Rock: 100 and 83. There you go. Thank you. My, my brain had the approximate number 183. So that's terrifying. So that really says, if if change is, is that much faster? Right? Then there's incredible pressure on learning some other great comments. You know, leaders who haven't healed their own traumas and then, elevated to leadership. Roles project those insecurities on others.
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Dr. David Rock: you know, reprioritising
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Dr. David Rock: you know, nearing retirements. All sorts of things. Thanks very much, everyone. So it there's clearly some pressure on it. Let's let's dig into sort of, I guess the the current reality. I think there's an interesting question
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Dr. David Rock: of of how effective it's. It's almost sounds like an obvious question. But no one asks it. How effective do we think learning is now, on the whole.
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Dr. David Rock: do we have a poll for this, or we just want to get comments in the chat? I don't remember where we landed.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: In the in the chat, so.
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Dr. David Rock: Chat. Yeah.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: A percentage. Let's say.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, as a percentage. How effective do folks think learning is? Now we're talking about across all learning or leadership. So what I'm talking about is, there's an intent to, you know, deliver an experience.
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Dr. David Rock: What percentage of participants in that come out of that experience. Having achieved that intent? Right? So that's an effectiveness measure of learning. So you run a program about being, you know, inclusive. For example, you run an inclusive leadership program what percentage of the people take on the habits
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Dr. David Rock: of that experience, the majority of them. And and you know that that learning experience was effective. So think about in terms of number of participants versus number of habits. What would folks say as a percentage? How effective do we think learning is? Today? We see an 8, we see a 30, 10 t015-25-1050. We see a 15, a 20.
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Dr. David Rock: We see a 5 terrifying 25% don't call me Max. 10%. Sorry. That was a very bad dad joke. 10%,
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Dr. David Rock: 30%,
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Dr. David Rock: 10%. Not very big numbers, are they?
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Dr. Emma Sarro: No.
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Dr. David Rock: Right? Interesting.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Matches. What we're seeing in in the industry reports as well.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah. Yeah. The way it's being measured is incorrect. That's that's true. It's it's not being measured. Very well. Yeah. So we don't have, you know, consistent measures. It's it's hard to. It's hard to measure these. So I think what what we see and we haven't measured this directly we we measure the percentage of an audience that has, at least one of the intended habits as a real habit like it's something that they do at least a month after a program, and sometimes 6 months after a program.
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Dr. David Rock: And so that's not a complete measure of every habit. It's really hard to do.
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Dr. David Rock: But we've had this measure for about 7 years. And we've measured, you know, hundreds of thousands, probably low millions of people. And we have data from hundreds and hundreds of companies. And what what we see is is, we think it's a pretty good measure, because there's quite broad data. And and it sort of correlates to the sense the facilitator had and other factors in the program. But
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Dr. David Rock: kind of like a real, a real failure for us would be 50 or 60% of an audience, you know, have one of the habits a month after, and it's not necessarily by them. It's it's evidenced by their team. And and the highest we've been able to get is like north of 95% and that's for something like growth mindset where we have, you know, 95% of people are noticing a growth mindset talking about it growth or fixed mindset, you know, every week like it's really a part of their lexicon every week. It's a habit now.
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Dr. David Rock: So we're able to get as high as 95 north of 95
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Dr. David Rock: I we? I don't think we've ever gotten north of 96, I think 96 is that top number? We regularly get between 85 and 95 and you know, good result is is like 75 to 85%. That's but that's using completely different approach to learning than most approaches to learning. It's where learning is not a 1 off event. It's a month at least. With something every week for a month. So it's a really different approach. But I think it's possible
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Dr. David Rock: to get learning dramatically more effective.
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Dr. David Rock: Can you get a hundred percent of people a hundred percent of the time? Absolutely not
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Dr. David Rock: you know, to do a new habit, can you.
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Dr. David Rock: I think, can you influence
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Dr. David Rock: you know, 80% of an organization to do things meaningfully different and and continue to do things meaningfully different. I I do. I do believe that's possible. And the data is showing that up. It depends on the skill you're trying to give them
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Dr. David Rock: right and how much. And it's a lot to do with how it's it's rolled out systemically in the organization.
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Dr. David Rock: But I think it's very possible to get 80% of an audience. In, you know, really doing things meaningfully differently.
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Dr. David Rock: That's that's been our experience. But right now, there's a big gap between that. And you know, 5%, 10%, 25%, as people were saying, interesting, what do? What do folks think about that. Is there any any comments on that in the chat or Emma? Anything you want to add to that.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, I you know, I think. You know there, one thing that that Paul wrote in is the the time commitment made to anchor the new habits. And and I think the way that we've been designing our work is really to kind of focus on that. Given what we understand about our like, the attention tensional range in humans. And like the spacing needed and we bring in, we have our own brain based models that we know, are based in, in how we design learning. And I know we talked about bringing ages into this. But this is.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: you know, our foundation for how we design our learning programs, and even how we design the delivery of the learning, we we link back to the neuroscience.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, no interesting. Before we get into that. Maybe just before we go on, Emma, some of the data points that you were sharing with me the other day are amazing. Let's just let's just share some of those, and we can get into we we can get into a bit more. But the
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Dr. David Rock: I I it's just remarkable. The 9 out of 10 workers want training to be available anywhere, anytime, which is basically everyone. More than half of employees pursue training outside of work because the company programs aren't relevant. And this one blew me away. 21% of respondents give high marks to the overall quality of the company's learning and development efforts. 21%.
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Dr. David Rock: Isn't that? Isn't that just amazing? And interesting? Why, why do you think we're bad at this? Why do you think we're bad at at learning, at delivering learning? I'm curious what folks think here? Why do. Why do you guys think people are bad? Companies are bad at learning design.
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Dr. David Rock: What is it?
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Dr. David Rock: What is it that folks think about that.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: As as they put those in. I I think this is really amazing, because all of this is our own experiences of what we see and what we hear. But this suggests that employees do want it.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Leaders do want that. They want the role modeling that they want. They want the ability to be good at their roles they want, and if they're not getting it in their organization, they're going to go elsewhere. So you have the opportunity as an organization to design the learning, the way that fits all of the other. Your priorities, your mission, all of your values, of your organization. So why not design it in a way that works best and gets buy in? So the buy in might not actually have to be that
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Dr. Emma Sarro: you might not have to work so hard because employees do want it. They want the learning. We know that employees will leave 94% of employees. Say that development opportunities will keep them there. And that's been a consistent statistic over the years.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, it's it's interesting. A lot of good comments coming in. Thanks everyone for your comments. I'll I'll share some for folks who are listening. But you know, people, a common theme is is that basically, we're not following the science. You know, we're doing things as one off events. Right? We're doing things in ways that don't just follow how the brain needs to learn. You know, we we're trying to do one. Size fits all
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Dr. David Rock: there's, you know, I think there's there's a lot of that here in the comments. And I think that they're also, you know, we sort of. We have an expedience bias, and just kind of do what you know education does. Let's just follow what people do in, you know, K. To 12 and universities, and that must work. So let's do that. So that doesn't really, that doesn't really work. And then I think there's
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Dr. David Rock: it's you know, it's often seen as a cost center without a real understanding of the the business benefit. So I think, you know, I think a big thing also is just
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Dr. David Rock: just a lack of understanding of the 1st principles of learning and in particular
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Dr. David Rock: learning. When you're trying to scale learning, because I think that's where the problem comes in. It's relatively easy to take a team of 10 or 20 people and design and deliver something that that meaningfully, you know, changes them.
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Dr. David Rock: If you allocate the time right? If you just, you know, put them in a webinar for an hour. Does very little. Put them in a classroom for a full day still does very little. But if you, if you really allocate the time and and come back over time, it's relatively easy to get a team, you know, a single team of, you know, a dozen, 2 dozen people
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Dr. David Rock: and do something meaningful and have them really, really transformed. Now, of course, there's degrees of success within that. The hard thing is when you say we've got 500 people managers, and we want them to all be better at. Let's say, you know, giving feedback right? And inevitably what happens is
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Dr. David Rock: without in like, in the absence of 1st principles. Anything is fair game, right. So if you used to run a 2 day program, it was really effective. There's nothing to stop a leader saying, Let's do this in one day, right. And if you have a 1 day program, you're seeing some good results. There's nothing stopping a leader saying, Let's do this in a 1 h, Webinar, and just send it to everyone
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Dr. David Rock: right? And again, there's no 1st principles, and there's no real measurement. There's nothing to stop a leader saying, Let's just send out a video to everyone, right? So there's no real accountability because there's no real measurement
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Dr. David Rock: and Nps isn't measurement. The real measurement is a measurement of the percentage of people that have a desired habit. A month after a program, we call that the behavior change percentage that has some accountability in it. Right? We use that measure. We compare different learning styles. And if we see a Bcp under like 60%, we we know, like we shouldn't do this right.
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Dr. David Rock: So in the absence of a measure and the absence of 1st principles.
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Dr. David Rock: You you basically it's it's fair game to do anything and sort of why shouldn't leaders say, Hey, do that in an hour? Why shouldn't they say, can you spend, you know, 22 cents on this instead of, you know, 22 million.
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Dr. David Rock: Why not? There's no measure otherwise. So I think learning professionals have to get kind of much more engaged in formally measuring learning based on habits
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Dr. David Rock: and separately. really thinking about following the design like following 1st principles. Because then you have an argument for leaders that says, No, actually, this is what the science says. This is. This is what the science says, you know. Fundamentally so. Let's, I guess. Let's dig into that. Where do you want to start, Emma? Where should we dig in.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Oh, I mean, you're speaking about design right now. So let's talk about design and you know how. And you're you know you're talking about how we currently design and what leaders think about when they currently design, like, what? How much time do we have? And actually, this
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Dr. Emma Sarro: kind of leads back to what you mentioned before about how employees want the learning in the flow of work. They want it to be when they want to take it. They want it to be when they're there. Everyone's overwhelmed. There's no arguing that from leaders to 1st line employees. And so how do we? How do we encourage learning when they have time?
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Dr. Emma Sarro: And that's all based on design. So how should we be designing now and into the future?
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, I think I think we're at a point where companies need to really take seriously. These 2 types of these these 2 windows for learning right? There are really 2 windows for learning to occur. And and it basically comes back to how you focus attention
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Dr. David Rock: right without attention. There's no learning high attention. You get high learning right? You need, you need very quality, high quality attention. So there's 2 ways to basically get high quality attention. One way is you? You gather a bunch of people. You nail their feet to the floor in chairs, and you make them sit in a room
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Dr. David Rock: right for a certain number of hours to pay attention to something, and you have their peers there so they can't be on their phones. And you know everyone's got to focus right? So that's 1 way. That's the classic way. Right? That's the just in case learning. Now, of course, you can make that as close as you can to an experience. So if you've you know, if you're about to come into performance review season, it's you'll get more attention if you deliver a program on feedback, you know, just before that, like in the weeks or months before. But you're still basically trying to force attention
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Dr. David Rock: while every participants in the room. Attention is on things that feel 500% more urgent and important. Right? So their attention is actually on, like the client that's really suffering right now, and they they feel guilty, not, you know, managing the client. So half of their brain is like out of the room on the client, managing things right? So it's not the biggest priority for them. Right? So just in case learning which we still do, a lot of, and all of you still do a lot of just in case learning has a role
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Dr. David Rock: and and but it's an attention thing. So how do you get attention and keep attention. For that, just in case learning. But we're moving into an era where learning and the flow of work is going to become like unavoidable. You're gonna have to have this for people. And you know, our 1st experiment with this in a really meaningful way, is our Nile solution, which is our our AI technology neuro, intelligent leadership enhancing system which you know, we're doing some experiments already inside partner clients.
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Dr. David Rock: Where people can literally in real time get some learning about how to manage themselves, mobilize others, drive results like anything that you need to be just a better leader or manager. You can get that in real time, right? And you can ask it a simple question. You can dig deeper. You can develop like role plays. You can practice things you can like the incredible. It's blowing my mind what this is capable of doing. And I think we're gonna get
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Dr. David Rock: more and more organizations serious about like this kind of learning in the flow of work.
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Dr. David Rock: we've started to kind of
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Dr. David Rock: add this to a company's own internal Hr bot, right? So that it's automatically. You know connected there my team can put a link in the chat. If you're interested in that, you can see a little bit more about Niles. But you know we're we're not like fully scaled with this yet. We're we're learning fast. We've been working on this for a year or so. But it's out there. We're using it. All our employees use it. Find it incredibly helpful every week. So
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Dr. David Rock: so I think learning in the flow of work is coming in a big way. This is this, you know. 9 out of 10 employees want
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Dr. David Rock: you know, want learning when they need at any time like 24, 7.
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Dr. David Rock: But but you still there's a challenge with that. Is that what that's not doing?
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Dr. David Rock: What that's not doing is creating like
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Dr. David Rock: shared experiences creating, you know, like relation, you know, building relationships, sharing knowledge between people. You know this kind of thing. So there's still a role for that for that. Just in case learning experience. And it's great to do that. As I say, you know, up against things that matter. And there are radically better ways to build those experiences
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Dr. David Rock: that you get more like the 80 or 95% of people having habits radically better ways. And one of those one of the conditions for that.
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Dr. David Rock: I kind of already mentioned. It's attention. And let me let me pause. Go back. Step. We? We asked this question. Well, 16 years ago, we started on this question. It's 1 of the 1st questions we started studying, which is, how do you make learning stick, and we published for the 1st time in 2010,
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Dr. David Rock: and then did an update to this in 2,012. It's probably due. We're probably due to do that again. But what what we basically did is is, we said.
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Dr. David Rock: what are the 1st principles for designing learning so that you get real embedding, so that you get stickiness right? Not so that people vaguely remember things, but so that you get real stickiness. And we came out with a framework stood the test of time. This is the thing that everyone wanted to spend like so much time on. And it's called the ages model right attention, generation, emotion, spacing. We'll put it in the chat and give you some links. But
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Dr. David Rock: ages is the is the framework that that gives you this tool. For like debating with leaders.
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Dr. David Rock: because essentially the framework says, all 4 of these have to be high or have to be moderate to high. All 4 of these have to be moderate, to high to get reasonable recall right. And for for things to be sticky. And we, we talk about easy recall under pressure. That's really the measure easy recall under pressure. So all 4 of these have to be moderate, to high, to get easy recall of ideas under pressure.
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Dr. David Rock: So attention is one, and you need very high attention.
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Dr. David Rock: and you can measure the attention in different experiences like the attention in the afternoon on a 1 day program is kind of useless right? The attention for the 1st few hours on a 1 day program is amazing. So like, make things 2 h programs in the mornings right and split them up right? Attention in a you know. 15 min burst is amazing. Right? If if you really hold people and focus people and things like that. So attention became one of the 1st principles.
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Dr. David Rock: That that really you know you can anchor on. And if if you don't really have attention, so it doesn't work. So, for example.
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Dr. David Rock: the leader who says, Well, why don't we just send a recording of a webinar out to everyone and and tell everyone they have to watch it. The answer is, attention will be radically known because there's no social pressure. People will play it while they file their papers. People will play it while they have dinner. People will play it while they're doing something else to say. They've done it right, and to vaguely get a sense of it. But there's not enough attention to learn. Very few people will actually play it at all, in fact, and most of those who play it will multitask.
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Dr. David Rock: So you know, compared to a live experience where people know they could be called on at any moment. You can see they're there, and they're on camera
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Dr. David Rock: attentions radically up compared to recording. So so now you've got a you've got like a framework, right? Attention is a framework generation is
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Dr. David Rock: literally, the quality of connections made, the quality of the connections made between a new idea and existing ideas.
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Dr. David Rock: Right? So it's. It's literally about the links between some new concept. For how to give feedback, for example, and existing concepts. How well are these connections made which determines how sticky the ideas are strongest form of generation is the moment of insight where something suddenly comes together and really really stays with you. Right? That's generation.
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Dr. David Rock: emotion.
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Dr. David Rock: The big one. So emotions are incredibly low. If you're just watching a recorded webinar, there's no there's no emotion involved right compared to. You know, you're with a group of 20 peers, and every 3 min someone's being called on to share something. You're like really feeling things right. And the strength of emotion correlates to how well we remember things. So emotions are really really important.
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Dr. David Rock: And then the S is this is the surprising one. Spacing is critical. If you have no spacing like if you have really strong attention, really, strong generation, really strong emotion. But it's a 1 off.
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Dr. David Rock: You probably won't get much embedding at all, whereas you add a serious
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Dr. David Rock: bit of space. To this
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Dr. David Rock: you get a, you know, big increase, and then ideally, what you want to do is really space things out a considerable amount of time, at least a week, sometimes 2 weeks, sometimes even a month. In fact.
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Dr. David Rock: the research that's out there shows the longer the interval between learning events, the longer you'll remember things. So spacing is a really really important one, and you want to do everything you can to space the learning out and it's not just an accountability effect that that's a big piece of it. A big piece of it is coming back together, create some accountability for people to focus on things. You can really leverage that. But it's it's also the reanimating networks in a different context.
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Dr. David Rock: It's the effort of reanimating networks. It's the way we grow memories. We don't store them. And and in fact, yeah. Tobara's question. The longer interval between sessions, the longer we remember them, because of the increased effort to remember everything from last time.
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Dr. David Rock: And it's it's it's actually embedding things. Further. So attention, generation, emotion, spacing. This is like the the foundational principles for for designing learning. And you want to design learning with with moderate to high ages, and if any of these are not moderate to high, you won't get, you really won't get the embedding. You need
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Dr. David Rock: so all sorts of clever ways of thinking about that and emotions. There's a few comments in the chat about emotions. The interesting thing about emotions is slightly positive emotions are not helpful.
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Dr. David Rock: Everyone's like, Oh, people should feel safe and comfortable, and all that. It's actually not true. If you want people remember things you don't want them feeling safe and comfortable. They won't remember anything. You actually want a roller coaster.
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Dr. David Rock: And at the end they feel really positive about it. Right? The ideal you want is people feeling safe at the start, and then unexpectedly, quite scared and anxious, and then have a real high experience of learning something and then be anxious again and wondering how they're gonna pull this together. And then suddenly it all comes together. And the end they're like, wow! That was an amazing experience. That's the ideal learning experience.
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Dr. David Rock: Is that there's real challenges and real moments where they don't think they can do it. Where it's actually hard. Their heart is racing a little bit at times, but not so much that
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Dr. David Rock: not so much that that people are overwhelmed. So there's an amount of like discomfort. That's actually important.
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Dr. David Rock: And we've we've talked about this a lot. It's it's a delicate edge. And of course you can cross over the line sometimes. Just as you know, as a comedian, sometimes, you know, crosses the line, you know, gets cancelled like facilitators, sometimes will cross the line. Make some people too anxious accidentally. It can happen, and you so. But you've got to get close to that line of making people a little anxious
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Dr. David Rock: if you design learning so that everyone feels just fine and no one's challenged. You're not really going to get learning. And we have that argument all the time. So attention, generation, emotion, spacing. These are the 4 things that you must design for any of them are not high enough.
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Dr. David Rock: You won't get learning what's interesting about this. Then I'll go back to you, Emma. We can dig into some chats and some comments. But what's interesting about this is it kind of frees you up so you can say, look, as long as I get these 4, you know, moderate to high
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Dr. David Rock: I can sort of do anything.
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Dr. David Rock: And now you can get really creative.
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Dr. David Rock: And it turns out you can do things like get teams to just talk for 5 min from a laminated one sheet in a you know, in a mine in the middle of nowhere. You can get teams of people just to have a conversation for 5 min once a week, asking some hard questions, you know. Offer one sheet and do that every week for a month, and you can get really amazing learning happening.
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Dr. David Rock: Compared to taking them offline at all
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Dr. David Rock: because you're getting attention generation emotions, basically.
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Dr. David Rock: So it frees you up to experiment and and do things really, really differently? Because you kind of know what you're trying to solve for right? You're trying to solve for those 4 things you're not solving for entertainment. You're not solving for you know, participation time. You're not. In fact, you're trying to minimize participation time. You're not solving, for you know, feeling time.
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Dr. David Rock: You're not solving for anything you're solving for those 4 different elements. So let me pause on my my rant. There, Emma, what's coming up in the chat, or anything you want to add there, before we move on.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, there's a lot coming up throughout that. I mean, I love the ages model. I think one of the things that it does as an anchor, is it? It reduces the capacity for that. The overwhelm that any designer has to go through to, to, you know, figure out how to design this event as long as you cross those boxes, you know. I I made sure that that the material was, you know, very attention focusing. It was very interesting. It was spaced out. It had some emotional component, you know. They
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Dr. Emma Sarro: they had to generate their own ideas so that, you know, generated the the formed the networks. And there's so much research that years of research that support each of these pillars. And one thing that's coming up just that I I knew we were going to talk a bit about. This is just the idea of social learning and adding. And we talked about this a few weeks ago, too, the idea of social learning, and and how powerful it is for
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Dr. Emma Sarro: forming memories and long-term learning is that it actually taps into several of these pillars.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: It provides the attentional focus. We're so attuned to other individuals and it it provides the emotional component. There are ups and downs. There is a roller coaster when you're in a social environment, it allows you to generate as you're talking about yourself. That's a form of generation. That metacognition is a form of generation. It increases the the network size and so social learning has been shown in multiple cases to allow us to learn more complex ideas than if we were
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Dr. Emma Sarro: by ourselves to have stronger learning. It engages those those emotional areas and that interaction and the participation all foster the learning. So this is, you know I mentioned social media before, but this is why it works so well. Engages us, and we remember, and it performs that it provides that social norm that draws us to have certain opinions and ideas, so ages can be can be seen through adding the social learning piece as well. So that's another part.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Think about.
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Dr. David Rock: Let's talk about. Let's talk about scaling because you can design that wonderful event for 1020 people. Right? But if but now you want to take it to 10,000 people. Right? How do you? How do you take something to 10,000 people? Right that you don't have 5 days like, what what do you do? So one of the insights that we had around scaling learning around design is that there's a huge huge bump from making things social.
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Dr. David Rock: And we had a whole episode on this. My team can probably put that in the chat just on social learning. We had a whole episode about that. But the cliff note is you you when when learning is social. So when you're interacting with other people.
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Dr. David Rock: basically, the learning is much more deeply encoded. You recall a lot more easily as a result, and you act more often. And it's it's more deeply encoded, basically because social information encodes automatically. You don't. You don't have to remember like how you felt. You have to like work hard to remember how you felt when you're with a group of people like you'll be able to remember, you know a year later how you felt easily without
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Dr. David Rock: having to like think hard. Right? So social information encodes automatically in the brain. So if you're tapping new learning into this social fabric.
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Dr. David Rock: it's much, more, much more deeply encoded in the brain is, there's a type of learning called social learning. So that's 1 reason. Another reason is the accountability that results from learning with others, you know, dramatically more accountable and all sorts of things. So you're trying to scale learning, you get this huge, huge benefit from making sure things are social, and the more social the better right. A group of 4 people is better than a group of 8. Group of 2 is better than a group of 4.
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Dr. David Rock: You know, a group of 4 is a very, very nice social unit, because you can learn enough from 3 people. It feels like real accountability, but you can't hide
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Dr. David Rock: group of 6 or 8. You can sort of hide a bit. So there's sort of a sweet spot for social dynamics. 3 people or 4 people is about a sweet spot for sort of, you know, creating some real powerful social learning. The other one is insight based learning. We've talked about this a lot. We did a session specifically, just on insight learning recently. But insight. Learning is essentially you're not sharing information. You're creating the conditions for people to have these Aha moments.
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Dr. David Rock: Right? So so insight based. Learning is not sharing information to, to hope people remember it, but creating experiences to to facilitate the highest possible chance of folks having their own Aha! Moment. And it's a very, very different way of design.
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Dr. David Rock: And the our moment is really, really important. We think it's the active ingredient in good learning.
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Dr. David Rock: And the science supports that like people learn and well, people recall things much longer when they have an insight like the the research is really clear on that. When people have insights they learn they recall much longer.
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Dr. David Rock: The ideas. We've also done our own research on this, and showed that the likelihood of action correlated to the strength of insight people, had we collected data from close to 500 people. So we know that insight experiences drive in in coding and drive behavior change. But you've actually got to design really differently for insight. So you want to design for social, you want to design for insight.
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Dr. David Rock: And the 3rd one, a really really important one, absolutely critical and really easy to overlook is designing for one habit at a time over time
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Dr. David Rock: or it could be more than one could be a couple of habits. It could be a group of habits. But focus on one thing, one broad area at a time over time. So you know, you wanna focus on feedback one week. Great. Give people a couple of things to try around feedback, but you can't focus on feedback and inclusion, you know, and cost cutting, you know, in the same week. People just like don't know where to go right? So focus on one set of ideas for one week or 2 weeks or a month. Then focus on the next thing
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Dr. David Rock: and all of that. So the broad principle for scaling around design is, make it as in social as you can make it as insight, rich as you can, and absolutely focus on one thing at a time, and do that over time. And, as a general rule.
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Dr. David Rock: a rule of thumb a month is a great amount of time to work on one set of habits or one set of ideas. We've built 15 off the shelf experiences that focus on 15 different specific habits over a month. So you can work on, you know, really breaking the back of bias in a month.
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Dr. David Rock: or really doing something meaningful about inclusion in a month, or really doing something about psychological safety in a month. The interesting thing is, it's only like an hour and a half over a month, little bites of learning over a month every week for a month, but a month is a really interesting unit of time, or 3 months, or 6 months, 9 months.
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Dr. David Rock: But something, you know something every week. So those are the those are the principles. Talk a lot about design. We probably should talk a little bit about facilitation, although maybe we'll save some of that for next week, as we talk about big events as well. But yeah, any questions coming up around design from you or from folks.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, yeah, I mean, well, that's the the second piece. And I think oftentimes we forget that there are these 2 pieces, and you can. You can tap back into ages when you think about how to deliver as well. But, we did have some questions earlier around delivery and the delivery in a virtual space delivery live, I think some some folks are still not like super comfortable with having a delivery that's virtual. Be as effective
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Dr. Emma Sarro: as as in person. And we talk a lot about that, and I know we're designing an all virtual event soon, and we'll be talking kind of deeper about it next week. But that's 1 of the questions that
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Dr. Emma Sarro: that comes up a lot is.
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Dr. David Rock: Do you have any?
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Your virtual is as impactful.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, so there's
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Dr. David Rock: it's an interesting one. So let's let's simplify this to 3 categories, right? Asynchronous, which means completely doing people doing things in their own time, right, asynchronous, virtual, which let's define that as kind of on a platform with other people in real time. But you're you're not in the same physical space. You're on a platform, but you're in real time. So it's synchronous.
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Dr. David Rock: You may or may not see people, but you're you're in an digital experience, a zoom or a teams, or whatever right? And the 3rd one is in person
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Dr. David Rock: right? So asynchronous, virtual, and in person right? So they have different qualities. Let's say some obvious things. First, st you know, if you think about scale, asynchronous radically kills it on scale. Right? Virtual is great on scale in person is terrible on scale. Right? Now, let's think about ages for a minute. You'd think that attention is terrible in
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Dr. David Rock: in in asynchronous. Actually, we think there's ways to make attention
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Dr. David Rock: moderate. We can't necessarily make it super high, but we can make it high enough
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Dr. David Rock: using some tricks, and there are ways of making attention have with virtual. The way most people design virtual is their attention is terrible.
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Dr. David Rock: Right? They'll take a you know, 4 h classroom and turn it into a 2 h. Zoom! It's like, forget about it. Just don't even bother
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Dr. David Rock: right? So you know, a virtual session should be 50, or maybe 80 min at the most.
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Dr. David Rock: Everyone on camera group size under 30. Constant use of the chat constantly requiring people to put something in the chat, like everyone required to put something in the chat every few minutes, right? Engaging people calling on people. And you know, people like literally seeing everyone. That kind of learning actually has higher attention than in person.
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Dr. David Rock: It's really ironic. When you follow some principles, everyone's on camera, everyone's being called on everyone's being required to chat. There's higher attention in that than per per hour than classroom learning. It's bizarre. So the sort of default way we have of thinking about virtual learning is like, well, it's not as effective as in person. It's true. If you, if you just break any of those rules, it's not as effective in person.
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Dr. David Rock: Right? If you just say, Hey, be on, be on, you know. Be on camera. If you want. No one's on camera, it's not gonna be very effective. Right? People will multitask so you got a few basic rules if you follow them, the attention is actually better. Now, in person the attention is amazing. Attention is the best in person for an hour or 2,
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Dr. David Rock: and then it starts to wane and the rest of the day. It's terrible. So if you're looking at the whole event, if you've got like 6 h of learning you want to do, you're far better to do 6 virtual hours, right? Over 6 different weeks. You get way more attention than you will 6 h back to back.
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Dr. David Rock: Right? But that's non obvious. Right? If you follow those principles, you'll get radically higher. Attention, 6, 1 h virtual sessions
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Dr. David Rock: than you will 6 h in a classroom.
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Dr. David Rock: and happens to be much more scale. So that's an attention that's from an attention perspective. Right? So remember, you got asynchronous, virtual, and in person. So attention actually, we found, can be high enough
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Dr. David Rock: in the asynchronous. What about generation can generation? Can you give people insights in the asynchronous? We think you can?
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Dr. David Rock: We think you can. We're doing a big big roll out of a solution called lead at the moment, which is a 6 month. Asynchronous experience. We're seeing people have real insights. But those insights are coming often from the social interactions that we've created and the the different ways that we've structured. But we've designed that learning experience literally for insight. So we.
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Dr. David Rock: you know, because we run so many real time experiences. We know where the insights come from, how they come, the kind of activities we're able to reduce those, reproduce those activities in a digital environment
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Dr. David Rock: kind of slowly walking people through the pieces of something, letting them make the connection. So we think that it's possible to get moderate generation like real insights in an asynchronous environment.
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Dr. David Rock: What about a virtual environment?
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Dr. David Rock: Actually, yes, you can get really good insights in a virtual environment because you've got, or if you've got good attention.
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Dr. David Rock: If you've got really good attention, you can get really powerful insights if you've got poor attention. Terrible.
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Dr. David Rock: but absolutely we. We were running. You know, coach training executive coach training programs just virtually for decades, literally and we saw no difference in the effectiveness rating formally assessed by proper assessors of the coaches coming out of that compared to in person, they were just as good, in fact, often better
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Dr. David Rock: in a completely virtual environment. So we know we can produce insights in a virtual environment. If we have attention in person. Yeah, you can produce insights absolutely in person. No question. So we've got attention. Generation emotions.
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Dr. David Rock: all right. So asynchronous. If if asynchronous, involves just watching a video, forget about emotions.
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Dr. David Rock: right? If asynchronous involves, you know, some content pulled apart with a couple of tricks. Forget about emotions.
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Dr. David Rock: But let me ask you a question. Have you ever felt emotions in interacting with other humans on the Internet.
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Dr. David Rock: If your answer is, no, you haven't been using the Internet
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Dr. David Rock: because people get very, very upset
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Dr. David Rock: about all sorts of things people say on the Internet, right? It's it's a phenomenon like people get really upset. So you actually can have strong emotions in certain conditions in an asynchronous environment. Right? But again, you're sort of playing on that edge. So we believe you can get strong emotions in an asynchronous environment.
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Dr. David Rock: But there's a way to do it.
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Dr. David Rock: And we're we're experimenting with that in a really big way. Can you get strong emotions in a virtual environment actually stronger than in person in some ways.
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Dr. David Rock: Again, if you've got attention, give people really challenging exercise in front of 24 of their peers all look, looking at them. Pretty strong emotions. Right? And in person, of course, you can get really strong emotions. Maybe you can get the strongest emotions in person.
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Dr. David Rock: but you can get strong enough, virtually
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Dr. David Rock: final. One is spacing. Can you space with asynchronous? Absolutely? Can you space with virtual, absolutely? Can you space with in person. Almost never
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Dr. David Rock: right. So when you step back and you look at this, you say, actually virtual kind of wins.
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Dr. David Rock: unless you can work out the kinks in in asynchronous to really hold attention, really create insights and really create emotions. And that's what we're playing with. And so far, we believe our asynchronous efforts are actually more effective at habit activation than in person.
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Dr. David Rock: not more effective than virtual, yet.
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Dr. David Rock: but more effective than in person.
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Dr. David Rock: because of the spacing effect
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Dr. David Rock: and and some other things. So so that's that's a way to think about. So we've talked all about design, nothing about delivery. I guess that actually fits well with next session, as we talk about designing large events, because sort of how you deliver them, how you facilitate them is really central there. But these these start to be some arguments you can take to your leaders and say,
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Dr. David Rock: you know. Okay, you want me to shorten this program from you know, from 3 1 h. Virtual modules to 1 1 h. Module. Okay, great. That's fine. Let's do an experiment. Let's do both. Let's run both. And then let's measure the percentage of people that have the desired habits a month after. And let's really see what the difference is. Right. If you need some help with that contact. Us, we'll do some consulting for you. We'll help you design a measurement program will help you design a brain based measurement program. If you're interested in that
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Dr. David Rock: by the way, everything I'm talking about. We found people so kind of fascinated by. I forgot to say this at the start. We've put this into a 1 day program which we're launching in November in New York
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Dr. David Rock: and also in London in November as well. So in November we're launching a 1 day program. It is only for internal practitioners. So you're inside a company you're inside an organization, an existing client, or can be any organization that's you know. Not not, you know, in our direct space. So we're doing that. My team can probably put a link in for that.
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Dr. David Rock: It's called brain based design and facilitation. So we're running a program in person, a 1 day experience. And you're going to say, why are you doing as an in person experience. We're going to kick that off in New York, and then we'll we'll do a virtual version of this as well, which will be which will be a series of virtual sessions. After after that, which will kick off.
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Dr. David Rock: you know, around a similar time. But we're kicking off in New York. For those who want to, you know, be together. There are obviously benefits to being together.
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Dr. David Rock: One of those is not scale.
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Dr. David Rock: We don't necessarily need scale with that experience you're trying to scale. You don't want to design, for in person you want to scale, you want to design for virtual. Or you wanna, you know, design for really really clever asynchronous. I don't know that internal talent teams have the time, energy, and resources to design asynchronous that works.
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Dr. David Rock: We really know the science. We're like a year into that with a huge team working on it. And I feel like we're halfway there.
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Dr. David Rock: So it's it's a real thing to do. But you know, internal teams can design reasonably effective virtual programs without any help.
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Dr. David Rock: But yeah, feel free to reach out to us. If you're interested in in support, with designing, you know, learning sorry measurement strategies, just put measurement and your company name. We can talk to you about. You know, just a brief consulting project to help you design your measurement program. And give you those tools. You know, we could probably do that in in 3 or 4 sessions, virtually. We're also. And you're gonna hear more about this. We're doing
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Dr. David Rock: these learning audits. We started them at the start of the pandemic. We're coming back to them because of the sudden pressure on learning again. So we're doing these learning audits. We have a whole session on that not next week week after so so learning audits literally show you where the gaps are, and how to fix them and what to do. It's not just ages. It's lots and lots of things.
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Dr. David Rock: So that's coming up. So if you're interested, you know, sooner than that, in a conversation just put learning audit and your company name in the chat, Emma, we're coming up to the end.
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Dr. David Rock: Just for your company name as well, if you if you're putting measurement in there, just so we know where you're from, we'll follow. We can point you to the right person. In our team to support you. Once we know your company name as well. Anything else you wanted to to cover today on design. We didn't talk about facilitation at all, because there's so much to say about design.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, I guess everything. Yeah. I mean the one thing that's coming up for me, and I know we'll we'll dive into design next week is that, or delivery next week is that everything stems back to the science everything stems back to. If you're anchoring on each of these principles of how the brain learns and remembers
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Dr. Emma Sarro: you're you can design anything. And I think that's what keeps us kind of steady as we design different forms of learning that we've been able to kind of master each of these forms of learning is that we always link it back to does it satisfy the needs for our attention. Does it satisfy the needs for emotion, etc? So I think that's it. If you need a playbook, just think about those pillars, and you're going to design something that works.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah. It's, you know, 14 years old now, ages. It's really stood the test test of time. It's lasted for ages. It's it's really working, it's become more important. We think it's become more helpful. And it really is a an effective tool for assessing. I'll go right back to the start. You know your leaders are saying, do more, you know, learning with less money like.
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Dr. David Rock: Get a clean slate and say, Hey, boss, let's let's let's start from scratch. Let's design something that really follows the science and something that really scales and let's do some experiments. Experiments are low cost in a virtual environment for sure. So let's do some experiments. And let's collect data. So one of my favorite quotes, you know, follow the science experiment. Follow the data.
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Dr. David Rock: right? Follow the science experiment, follow the data. And I think it's time to do that with learning. Follow the science experiment, follow the data. We're really happy to help any of you with that reach out to us if we can. You know, if you want to have a conversation about, just throw around some ideas. Otherwise, yeah, look forward to digging in next week. We're talking about designing large events and and also facilitating delivering them, and how to really make those make those really work.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Absolutely thanks, David. It's great to see you all again, and I will welcome Shelby back on to close us off.
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Dr. David Rock: Thanks! Everyone take care!
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Shelby Wilburn: Awesome. Thanks. So much, Emma and David, we really appreciate you as always. Just a few quick announcements. So summit 2024 is happening this year. It will take place October 29th and 30.th You won't want to miss it. It's going to be fully virtual, so we can expand to all of our communities across the globe. There's more information on our website of speakers, what we'll be talking about and everything that you need to know. So visit, summit, nero leadership.com for all of your needs.
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Shelby Wilburn: If you enjoyed today's conversation, then you'll love, our podcast your brain at work, you can find past episodes and also standalone episodes on there. Wherever you listen to podcast
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Shelby Wilburn: and this is where we officially say farewell. So on behalf of our team behind the scenes. Thank you so much for being here. We appreciate you, and we'll be back same time next week. Have a great weekend.