Over the past 25 years, NLI has evolved using science-based practices. Evolving alongside us are our brain-based coaching practices for workplace development. In this episode, Dr. David Rock connects with Patricio Ramal (Director of Education, North America) and guest host Evynn McFalls (Global VP of Marketing & Brand, NLI) to reflect on this growth and consider the discoveries we've made over the past quarter-century.
Learn more about our Brain-Based Coaching programs by visiting https://individuals.neuroleadership.com/
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Evynn McFalls: Hello hello, welcome to all of our viewers across the world and welcome back to another week at your brain at work, live going to give people just a little bit of time to start flowing in today i'm your host Evan mcfall stepping in for the amazing Shelby will burn while she's out.
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Evynn McFalls: And this week's episode will be reflecting on the insights and discoveries we've made over the past quarter century with brain based coaching.
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Evynn McFalls: Now, before we get to that we're sending out a big hello to our audience today.
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Evynn McFalls: All of you registered zoom participants, as well as our friends streaming across all of our social platforms, regardless of what platform you're on tell us what you're logging in from in the comments section.
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Evynn McFalls: Just as a quick reminder and zoom make sure your comments are visible to everyone, by changing the setting to everyone, or all panelists and attendees so where's everybody got.
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Evynn McFalls: I see Pittsburgh Pennsylvania New York Seattle Montreal Columbus Texas all sorts of places well it's so exciting to welcome all of you to another show.
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Evynn McFalls: For our regulars it's great to have you back and for those of you who are new to your brain network live, welcome to the party for some context, this is the title of one of the best selling books by our CEO and co founder Dr David rock and it's also the name of our blog and podcast.
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Evynn McFalls: we're recording today's session so you're you're interested in the replay be on the lookout for the email later today.
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Evynn McFalls: This email will also include a survey for feedback and a number of resources that are aligned with today's conversation.
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Evynn McFalls: Now I know some of you are going to ask what do we do about sharing slides we reserve those for our current science and our corporate members only if you're interested in becoming a corporate membership, let us know the chat.
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Evynn McFalls: We also suggest that you put your phone on do not disturb and quit your email and messaging APP so you can get the most out of today's discussion, it also helps the quality of audio and video.
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Evynn McFalls: By the way, we love interaction, so please feel free to share your thoughts questions and insights in the chat as we go on today.
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Evynn McFalls: As we're about to kick off, I encourage you to do a quick one to stretch grab coffee water tea and get ready to get into today's discussion.
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Evynn McFalls: Now settle in with us for the hour and as we dive deeper into 2025 years of brain based coaching i'll start by kicking off our with our introduction to our speakers for today.
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Evynn McFalls: Our first guest is an aussie turn new yorker who coined the term nearly to ship when he co founded and ally over two decades ago.
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Evynn McFalls: But the professional doctorate for successful books under his name and a multitude of violence, ranging from the Harvard Business Review to the New York Times, and many more.
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Evynn McFalls: A warm welcome to our co founder and CEO of the neuro leadership institute Dr David rock I David good to have you here.
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David Rock: Thanks Evan good to be here excited for this conversation.
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Evynn McFalls: Right and our next guest brings more than 20 years of combined experience and consulting leadership and management and highly demanding and performance driven organizations.
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Evynn McFalls: Is a global journey spans the corporate world, including companies such as Procter and Gamble Coca Cola and saatchi and saatchi various countries.
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Evynn McFalls: his enthusiasm for learning teaching led him to his first part time faculty position at the age of 24 since then he's taught in top universities in the United States, Mexico and Puerto Rico.
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Evynn McFalls: he's certified in the foundations of neuro leadership brain based coaching and it's been a facilitator in the United States, Mexico and South America.
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Evynn McFalls: Please join me in offering a warm welcome to our director of education for the new leadership Institute for three she'll room ah welcome trisha it's great to have you.
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Patricio Ramal: Thank you, great to be here and looking forward to this conversation.
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Evynn McFalls: Excellent i'll go ahead and hand virtual MIC on off to you then.
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Patricio Ramal: Great Thank you so much, and welcome David like good to see you as well.
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Patricio Ramal: Yes, now that Evan was reading the bio and part of facilitation you know i've been within alive full time for six years now, but my journey with until I actually started before actually started with the Program.
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Patricio Ramal: That we're about to discuss today, so this is very dear to my heart, because that's one I discovered and ally, but to you that's how my.
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Patricio Ramal: career into sort of the human development space started in I was Reminiscing back to those days in 2009 when I took the course and and I actually you know, have still have my.
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Patricio Ramal: manual from those days, so you know 13 years ago started with the company.
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Patricio Ramal: I just started in the facilitation of the program after I took the program so I had the opportunity to work with David as an assistant trainer.
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Patricio Ramal: In those first few years and then I somehow David I somehow escaped you know a few years there have you know, a really important development nll and an ally sorry but I, you know King back to.
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Patricio Ramal: What is analyzed today, and so, for those of you that have been following us recently.
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Patricio Ramal: You know I want to remind you that you know, this is where we started 20 years ago and David to love to start on that holistic picture first you know do all these years ago.
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Patricio Ramal: How when did you start to coach you know what got you into coaching and how many people have we impacted with our coaching program since then let's start off with that.
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David Rock: yeah thanks for sure great to be in a conversation with you, was actually 24 years ago, not to be any bigger, but it was 1998 that we actually ran the first coach training program and it was quite an experience.
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David Rock: And started working on the content and IP and everything and in 1997 and about January, February 97 and we launched the program in September 1998.
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David Rock: The you know it's it's been an incredible journey, for the first few years the whole company was really about training coaches and I actually loved running that program I ran it for over a decade, you know a lot of them.
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David Rock: Really powerful programs around, even when you keep running it.
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David Rock: and got to work with you have any other amazing people you know we looked at it it's there's over 25,000 graduates of that program now around the world and.
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David Rock: it's it now runs in just about everywhere, you know, the Middle East in Africa in Latin America in Eastern Europe in obviously North America, Asia Pacific many countries.
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David Rock: it's all around the world, but you know about 25,000 graduates since since that time, so it's been an amazing journey but also lot of the maybe we'll talk about this later, a lot of the the ideas that we evolved for that Program.
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David Rock: have been woven into the work that we do in at scale which is like 5 million people, last year, so it's a we kind of threw out nothing actually from where we started it's just evolved and being used in different ways, which is kind of interesting.
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Patricio Ramal: Definitely it's been quite the evolution, but before we get to that event journey how the actual coaching model get started, how would you pan that moment, where this this coaching model.
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Patricio Ramal: is born.
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David Rock: Well, it kind of went through these big bursts of development and then we'll never off and then another burst, and this, but maybe three times, but the biggest verse of development was the first you know more than a year and a half of building it and what happened was.
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David Rock: I i'd been really interested in the brain i'd been really interested in personal development.
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David Rock: And i've been really interested in business and starting businesses and being entrepreneurial.
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David Rock: And in kind of 9697 I just started coaching people before I knew what that was and there was anything about it i'd never heard of the concept I just started meeting with people regularly and I found that.
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David Rock: You know, sitting down with people helping identify specific goals and putting in a structured and meet every week.
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David Rock: And kind of breaking those goals down and then creating some accountability and then kind of using a certain kind of approach I just found that worked really well and before I knew it, I was coaching 20 or 30 people.
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David Rock: And what happened was a handful of those people said you're having way more fun than I am in my job, can you teach me to coach.
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David Rock: You know I see you on your balcony enjoying the view you know, having these wonderful inspiring conversations that looks like way fun right.
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David Rock: I was like I honestly didn't know if it was teachable if I knew enough of if I could codify what I was doing that we basically got a small group of people together.
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David Rock: As four of us the time to essentially deconstruct what I was doing and we met weekly like a whole day and we would basically try to take apart.
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David Rock: kind of piece by piece by piece what we were doing and deconstruct it.
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David Rock: and try to work out like what it was what was the pattern, what was the model we did that, over a year, so it's an incredibly deep long process now.
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David Rock: Looking back what I what I what I see is that I built a coaching approach for people who hate being told what to do, for people who are really high on autonomy.
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David Rock: who get bored easily and kind of like to learn new things, but you know what I have you know I would have my own ideas I don't want to just be following someone's advice.
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David Rock: And so, in some ways, and not to be you know so arrogant about this, but in some ways I kind of accidentally built a coaching model that most leaders other many, many leaders.
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David Rock: kind of would prefer, because what we've seen in our studies sense is the higher you go in an organization, the more people prefer autonomy.
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David Rock: You know, want to be in control unless they want to be told what to do so, so I basically built this model of a sort of you know impatient busy.
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David Rock: And self determined people kind of step by step, and then we worked out how to teach it to others, and what we did literally the first program was a year long Program.
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David Rock: It was like meeting every Thursday for a year, the next one, we made six months, I think the next one, we made three months, and then we stayed with three months.
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David Rock: For a long, long time, and I think we still have that that approximate structure, so we we kind of simplified it and fairly early on.
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David Rock: We were we worked out, it would be really fun to go into a country like time you know start with New Zealand and Singapore.
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David Rock: go in and do a live component and then do the rest virtually at the time just on phone bridges, we worked out of coaching worked by phone.
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David Rock: Then training might work by phone and we found a did.
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David Rock: And so pretty early on, like we started 98 by the year 2000 we already had training happening in in New Zealand, Singapore, but also North America and the UK and a few other places, and so we started to so was very much about a coach training business in in those days.
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David Rock: and
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David Rock: That was before we even started working with organizations so So what about you about the year 2000 2001 we hadn't even started working with organizations, but we found that we could teach people to be really effective coaches.
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David Rock: And it completely differently to anyone else was doing it, but the way we did it was we basically deconstructed the pathway.
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David Rock: To successful coaching moments like we literally watched what happened when coaching worked, and I can actually still remember many of those moments working with the four of us.
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David Rock: What what I noticed is like you know i'd say put out a problem and say hey try and coach me and i'd be like no that's that's your advice that's how you want to do it that doesn't help me right, I can tell you, I can tell.
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David Rock: that's what you think but you're not like.
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David Rock: that's not me right, and someone else to try a strategy i'd be like no that's just a rabbit hole of going into a problem we're going to get nowhere there someone else would try a strategy, and you know we were literally like trial and error like try this on me.
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David Rock: And let's see if anything works and through this process we actually develop this kind of shortest path from A to B.
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David Rock: And we talked about that for years and still do like we build a coaching model that's essentially the shortest path from kind of being stuck to being to moving.
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David Rock: And that's essentially what we did for a whole year year and a half and then unpack that into a training that we still teach today but also has been woven into everything we do in some ways.
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Patricio Ramal: designating the whole the whole piece around codifying and i'm thinking about my experience with a program at first, because they were you were mentioning at the beginning.
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Patricio Ramal: The a lot of people get into this coaching organically right so it's something that you walk into and say you know.
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Patricio Ramal: I want to be able to help people, I want to inspire I want to support and and then you realize well, what is the best way to do this, what is the best way to get your path, a path be and, in doing that program I had one of these.
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Patricio Ramal: moments I call the oh crap moment right, which is when you realize you've been doing this wrong for 20 years right you've gotten to somehow or or or not, as effectively right and so.
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Patricio Ramal: The only other time that's happened is when I bought my really good first knife right when I bought my really good first knife, you know walked into this store in New York.
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Patricio Ramal: Japanese steel like beautiful life right and I cut, the first thing i'm like i've been cutting with doll knives 20 years exactly that's The experience I had when I started coaching our program i'm like.
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Patricio Ramal: i've been coaching with it like with adulthood, for many, many years now, you can still get results but, but I think your point in getting from point A to Point B a lot faster is.
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Patricio Ramal: and especially around coaching executives and coaching people so.
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Patricio Ramal: i'm thinking, you know as as you get to that point A to Point B without telling people what to do, there's a part of insight in there and there's, a role that that plays into epic model so, can you can I get like some of your perspective on what was that big role that.
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David Rock: yeah there was a whole there was a moment in the program that I have to use reminded me of something I took my kids and family at the time to.
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David Rock: To per se, which is a high end kind of tasting restaurant for my 50th birthday, a few years ago.
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David Rock: and showing my age, and I remember my eldest daughter who's now at trinity saying wow I had no idea that level of food existed, I always thought you know the best food was kind of here, but this is like up here.
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David Rock: And I just had no concept at all that there was something different than everything i've been experiencing right, so we had metaphor, but it's sort of similar, and I think people a lot of people have that insight.
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David Rock: When they do this this work that there's an entire other paradigm, that they had they had missed and i'll tell you the story of how it came about.
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David Rock: So we deconstructed coaching right and we'd worked out like the steps involved.
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David Rock: And it was working, and this was like maybe 20 like the year 2000 roughly right we'd had two years of running trainings we'd already like we're running.
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David Rock: I guess, we were teaching like 100 to 200 coaches, the year which at the time was huge right and we see that this had this wonderful venue in Sydney in Paddington for anyone who knows Sydney and five ways.
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David Rock: In paddington's right near lovely coffee shops and all this and I distinctly remember the moment this happened.
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David Rock: We set up these exercises that pretty much reproduced what I did in kind of building the model where someone would be in a group of four and one person would say hey I have this challenge, can you guys try and coach me.
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David Rock: And we would we would kind of people would see what their attempts to and kind of you know, we had this conversation so so the this moment happened where.
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David Rock: I was the facility, I was watching what was going on, and someone went to the bathroom.
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David Rock: While the person describe their problem in the group right so as a group of four there's like usually 24 people's six groups of four one of the groups and for.
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David Rock: us personally gone to the bathroom and I was just standing watching them sort of keeping the group, you know focused right the person came back and.
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David Rock: The coach the coach he has a column that it wasn't trying to be coach right was said i'll, let me tell you the problem and the other person for some reason said no don't tell me the problem.
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David Rock: Let me just try and help you.
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David Rock: and
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David Rock: not focus on the problem and I think was like day two after we've learned some foundations and what happened was this person kind of asked really different kinds of questions.
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David Rock: without knowing what the problem was at all just knew that there was something and I was really different questions and the weirdest thing happened was that within five minutes.
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David Rock: The person being coached had a really big moment.
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David Rock: And I can still actually remember like where they were in the room and, like the structure of the room and what it looked like I don't remember the people's faces, but the energetically was huge because.
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David Rock: I saw on this person's face something that became an obsession of mine, and still is, I saw them have a moment of insight.
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David Rock: And it was a really powerful moment of insight where the person being coached like.
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David Rock: Had this you know you know you know you see in the cartoons a big you know exclamation point over their head, you know that Eureka moment that was really clear.
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David Rock: This person had a breakthrough and we kind of deconstructed and talked about it afterwards and I debrief with my co facilitators afterwards were like there's really something here there's something we're missing.
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David Rock: And I became obsessed from that point on, that the moment of insight was the most active ingredient in coaching and it was a necessary moment for coaching to really work.
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David Rock: So there are other active ingredients, but it was kind of the critical active ingredient, if you think of a.
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David Rock: You know of a pharmaceutical drug of a metaphor, but you know this fillers and coatings and things that help you digest stuff but, ultimately, you know you've either got the drug in there, or you don't.
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David Rock: That you know that helps you with liberty or or whatever it is, and what I saw is that is that the the incitement, particularly a strong inside environment.
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David Rock: Was was was what really made coaching work i'm actually studied that, since many times and we find the strength of insight correlates to the likelihood.
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David Rock: of action later across about 500 people, so we got obsessed about inside and obsessed about basically a model that gets fastest to inside and it turns out that the worst way to one of the worst ways to do that is ask people about their problems.
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David Rock: Which is a huge inclination you know someone says hey i'm having trouble with my manager oh tell me about the problem right it's the most natural thing you could say right.
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David Rock: And we found that pathway just makes the brain noisy which inhibits inside and then we found the other way to do that is tell me that the manager.
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David Rock: You know, someone says i'm having trouble with the manager you just logically either going to ask about the problem or the manager.
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David Rock: And that path also turns out to inhibit inside because their brain gets full of noise and also activates the problem.
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David Rock: Until we found that the two default modes that are used, like 95 to 100% of the time and conversations actually inhibit inside.
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David Rock: And we started doing all this, you know, research and around about this time I started working basically introducing a coaching program to nyu.
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David Rock: And you know we'll talk more about that, but but, basically, I got obsessed around 2000 2001 with inside is powerful and what's the fastest and most effective way.
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David Rock: To bring someone to an inside and and that continues to be a strength and feature, you know work, you know I said, you know 20 whatever it is 22 years later.
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Patricio Ramal: Now I was gonna say that we, we continue to obsess over inside and even you know even within our events we designed for insight right it's one of the things that you talk about frequently.
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Patricio Ramal: I am, I am wondering where i'm curious if now that you were talking about this, I you know the definition that the definition of coaching that we use, which is very particular.
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Patricio Ramal: comes to mind, because our definition is to improve to facilitate positive change by improving thinking right is that somehow related to this insight moment that you had How would you relate this definition to to the importance of insight what it is.
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Patricio Ramal: yeah where it came from.
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David Rock: yeah no it's it's um.
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David Rock: it's there's a whole long conversation about that, I mean i'm so excited to.
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David Rock: have been able to study insight more rigorously, since that time, like we've written to research papers, with a whole bunch of global experts on insight.
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David Rock: To really understand the mechanisms and the role, but in fact really three because the paper on coherence is really central so we wrote a paper in 2009.
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David Rock: On essentially kind of how basically how to have more insights looking at the conditions of it, then we wrote a paper just about three four years ago about how insight actually changes the brain.
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David Rock: And then we also wrote about coherence and the role of kind of insight making connections so it's some.
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David Rock: it's really interesting you know insight, is this really universal thing it's actually the active ingredient in a good movie a good book a good netflix show it's this Aha moment where everything suddenly come together.
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David Rock: It turns out that you learn to read through moments of insight you learn languages through moments inside it's basically this moment where a map forms in the brain in a way it hasn't forms before.
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David Rock: So you might be connecting existing knowledge in the new way the strongest insights seem to be something where you kind of tried to solve a problem and failed.
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David Rock: Over and over and then now you're trying, a new way, and all this energy is released so insights release energy so going back to your question.
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David Rock: What we saw is that most conversations most coaching conversations are around the precursor to insight, which is called an impasse right an impasse is basically a problem you've tried to solve and failed.
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David Rock: So you know i'm having trouble with my manager okay well you know how long have you been trying to solve, there are two years interesting how many different pathways have you tried.
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David Rock: or I guess i've already tried this one strategy right okay straight away, there might be an insight right but it's an impasse.
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David Rock: we've tried to solve a problem and failed, and what we found is that people's thinking gets caught in these kind of eddie's and there's whirlpools right where you go round and round, and the same strategies and don't move on.
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David Rock: And that the the most of the conversations for coaching about challenges with people challenges yourself challenges with habits challenges with whatever are these impulses.
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David Rock: And you know you can kind of sit down and list all the classes, you have right now they're essentially unsolved problems.
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David Rock: And so, coaching is helping people solve their unsolved problems right and what what you're doing is you're doing that, in a way that improves their thinking.
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David Rock: So you're actually helping people have these moments of insight and they end up generalizing because when you realize that you know you should try more than one strategy for a long term problem you start applying that insight.
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David Rock: To all these other places right if you have the insight from that conversation about your manager you'll apply it to your partner and your kids have.
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David Rock: You know you'll start applying more than a single strategy to problems right, and so you know insights generalize and literally improve your thinking, and so what we realized is that.
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David Rock: The whole approach to coaching the creative inside fastest is kind of you're not asking about the person's problem you're not asking about the detail you're actually asking about the thinking itself.
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David Rock: We coined the term thinking questions which is which I kind of outlined in quiet leadership like first kind of major book.
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David Rock: But thinking questions as you're actually activating insights by asking questions that get people to reflect on their thinking and the lived up to metacognition and what those thinking questions do when you ask the right ways is they activate the four conditions of insight.
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David Rock: As opposed to asking about details and problems, you know activate the conditions for fewer insights you know, asking thinking questions that activate medical condition activates the right conditions inside so that's basically the connection the connection there.
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Patricio Ramal: yeah really it sounds like that definitely the insight is the that mechanism which unlocks the they empower them and improves thinking and from there, you can build actions you can build habits there's definitely speaks to some of the models that we have in our program that i'm.
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Patricio Ramal: You know, in terms of the you know the thinking questions and people when they think about coaching sometimes these very generic words have a lot of weight and one of the things that we see constantly is oh coaching is about asking a lot of questions right and.
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Patricio Ramal: And, in some ways it is is about asking some questions, but how How would you pinpoint what is really different about our program to other programs out there right we know grow is very popular program there are other programs that are based in questions.
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Patricio Ramal: To us that.
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Patricio Ramal: yeah that is a.
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David Rock: Much more effective it saved us i'm going why you're such an idiot is a question right it's not a very good one, so there's a big difference between questions right.
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David Rock: So you're gonna get a lot more granular than just you know coaching is about asking questions actually did something really, really fun and i'm kicking myself that I didn't formally collect data on this like and we may go back and do an experiment on this.
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David Rock: But it's it's a.
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David Rock: really wish we collect data, so one of the things that.
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David Rock: I used to do is create this exercise, where we would track the percentage of insights that happened so let's say we have a room of 24 people.
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David Rock: Right, and you know learning to coach is that we basically say hey everyone, you know one person pick a challenge, so we had 24 challenges and everyone try and coach them.
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David Rock: One person try and coach them right and just see what happens, this is before I teach you know training people.
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David Rock: you've already ran this exercise, like 100 times in classes right so literally before we started teaching people would be like hey pick up pick up pick a person we've actually we've done in pairs take a person just try and coach each other, see what happens so what we found.
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David Rock: Is we would track the number of insights that happened, so what we found is that in in average populations that number was pretty low.
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David Rock: And people who come to us that was slightly higher but an average population that would be like zero to 5% so.
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David Rock: In other words, you have 100 people trying to help each other, like the best like five of those hundred results in an insight now our definition was.
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David Rock: An inside that strong enough that the person is almost certainly going to do something now right so and inside that.
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David Rock: promotes like a whole new way of thinking that the person really plans to activate so that was our definition so normal.
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David Rock: Populations about 5% people came to us about 20% so people who came to us generally were more thoughtful and interesting others that was about 20%.
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David Rock: People what we found is that when we got groups of people who want to coach in another way.
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David Rock: So sometimes I go like I went to a big bank went to the training Center up in armonk had a room full of their in house coaches they've all been trained in different models, we actually got this really consistent number of 50% so 50% of the interactions before training resulted in.
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David Rock: An inside, so the spooky thing and and you can you know test this your experiences facility data is that we almost never got less than 75% when we talk about the framework and we got between 75 and 100%.
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David Rock: And all we did was teach people like don't follow your normal approach of you know, asking about the problem or detail.
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David Rock: You know, ask these kinds of questions and follow will be called the dance of insight, which is kind of a structure for really making sure you're.
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David Rock: Following thinking questions, and so we would often get like 80 90% and often 100% of a group say actually i've had this problem for years.
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David Rock: i've just found like what i'm going to do next, thank you right, really, really spooky I wish I could like the data actually a really interesting moment I did is in Japan years ago.
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David Rock: About 200 people all speaking blown Japanese I told them really briefly what the concept was in simultaneous translation and literally did this exercise with the before and after I think the number was above 80%.
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David Rock: And I was just getting all this reporting back in Japanese in simultaneous translation was crazy, but that was really, really cool.
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David Rock: I even did this at the positive psychology summer, years ago, when I was told at gallop we did a live exercise like this and collect the data there.
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David Rock: We should work out a way to collect this normally, but the bottom line is, we found that we got a much higher likelihood of insight.
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David Rock: And it was just a better model, including people who've been really, really well trained because, generally folks trained in coaching models tend to tend to go into the problem.
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David Rock: And they do it nicely, and they have good empathy and they would have you know it would be helpful, but not necessarily generate insight.
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David Rock: So they just had sort of more of a counseling approach, whereas we had more of a you know let's find the breakthrough together approach so that's you know that's that's the big difference.
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Patricio Ramal: Definitely, we still continue to do that every every facilitator does that exercise and and it's it's amazing when the about when I did the program how you.
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Patricio Ramal: i'm not going to do this, I get someone in 2720 minutes, and then, once you go through the process of building a model.
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Patricio Ramal: The second or the third day of the program you're actually helping for the most part, people get inside, which leads me to one of the questions in the chat there's a question around how.
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Patricio Ramal: How is inside built over time, or is it just that moment of insight where it coaching set in a coaching session, who is inside something that builds on you know, on on top of the previous insight right when you're thinking about how do you actually progress.
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David Rock: Let me it they build so there's this kind of cycle of impasse insight action habit.
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David Rock: Right, so you got an impasse, there you have some kind of insight you take an action about that insight to build a habit now you've got this new habit right, and then you have a different impasse right, and you have a new insight.
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David Rock: Take new action have a habit, so this is all kind of cycle, I mean past two to have it.
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David Rock: That people build on, so if you start coaching someone you know week two or three they might have this big insight.
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David Rock: About you know different way and relating to their career.
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David Rock: But then the next week you're going to they're going to take action, and then they going to start you know applying that in a different way, so yeah there's there's there's a lot to say about that, but I think there's some some fun other questions to go into.
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Patricio Ramal: Definitely.
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Patricio Ramal: In one of the opening questions in an attempt to acquaint leadership is why you know leaders need to care about improving thinking right sometimes leaders and managers see themselves as.
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Patricio Ramal: As that problem solver right, I am the manager I get paid to problem solve, but how do you how do you advise I think leaders and managers out there to really sort of shift that mindset into.
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Patricio Ramal: you're really more of a facilitator of inside and somebody that needs to improve thinking what, why is that.
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David Rock: Well, let me, let me give some context for sort of that shift so it's 1998 which feels like an eternity like as many people on this call were born there but i'm sure like literally ago right.
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David Rock: Just training coaches about.
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David Rock: Some companies and he was in Australia some companies and government in Australia said, can you turn our managers into coaches and, at the time we were like yeah, I guess, so why not.
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David Rock: let's try it and our first client was actually an organization called Center link, which is the Australian kind of social security.
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David Rock: We ran these big programs they're really successful and some of the most successful culture change initiatives that ever done.
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David Rock: And we started on this journey of developing internal coaches and we spent about a decade or more than a decade, being the world's expert in internal coaching capability and building these internal coaching programs.
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David Rock: So we sort of started with just teaching coaches, then we went to building internal coaches and then what we found in this kind of last decade or so is that we needed to kind of.
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David Rock: strip back this some of the big ideas and IP and valuable stuff out of just being in coaching and work out how to make it accessible to a lot more people.
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David Rock: So, and we can get more into that, but a lot of the principles that we learned and now talk to folks in these you know distributed learning solutions that model coaching but scale to 100,000 people in a month.
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David Rock: So we've kind of you know, taking the core ideas and and and scale them in completely different ways.
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David Rock: But, but the idea is it's still there, but what we know about people managers, is that.
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David Rock: Either manager now, and many of you will know this, but the manager now knows a lot less than the employee right in a in a process world where processes are really laid out and the managers done every job that their team's done.
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David Rock: Right, like in a factory right, then the managers, the expert of everything the employee does.
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David Rock: But in a knowledge era, the amount of change going on the manager can be the expert in everything the employee does in fact you want to hire people smarter than you that know things you don't know you need diverse perspectives.
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David Rock: Right to solve wicked problems, so the manager can't be giving advice constantly on exactly what to do, they've got to be more like a coach.
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David Rock: Now now you layer in the pandemic and people unbelievably stressed out it's not good to be telling everyone wants to do all the time when they're stressed out.
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David Rock: Now layer in hybrid work, and you know the manager not seeing all the people all the time and being much less on the Court watching someone work day to day.
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David Rock: and actually you know, on the side, what you know debriefing you know, like watching you know, like instead of being on the Court, you know with the basketball team every game you like literally watching the replay at the end of the week in snippets.
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David Rock: And so now, you have to be more coach like you have to actually help people with their thinking more.
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David Rock: versus you know, have all the answers are a combination of sort of the stress level and just the nature of work itself right being so dynamic.
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David Rock: And the sort of fact we don't see people as much just as made the role of like coaching capabilities so so important for managers today and that's where we are more now.
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David Rock: In fact, the first scalable solution we built was called connect in about 2015 2014 15.
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David Rock: And that was basically taking kind of the central big ideas of creating insight and putting it into like three habits, you could teach you know 5000 people in a month in some different ways let's take a same idea so that's that's kind of where we started with the scale journey as well.
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Patricio Ramal: Before we shift gears turning towards the you know the principles of coaching weaving into our work now.
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Patricio Ramal: I was curious about some of those earlier projects that you were inspired by because I know you and I worked out and some of those but, but what were those early projects, bringing cogito usage that you really inspired by that kept you going in this coaching space.
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David Rock: yeah yeah no, it was actually when was it, I think it was 2005 that we did a partnership with nyu I help them build a coaching program we put our stuff in there, it still exists or very different what I built.
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David Rock: I went on faculty there and through that partnership we started working with big us organizations and we ran three really meaningful projects in North America, globally, that we still have kind of relationships, a lot of those people and they're really powerful one was.
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David Rock: One was with a company that became famous years later, for the wrong reasons, it was a big.
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David Rock: And we ran this amazing program with the top leaders of one of the divisions and the fun thing was that we measured, the return on investment, using really hardcore Roi processes.
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David Rock: And we actually found using a whole like really rigorous approach 17 to one Roi.
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David Rock: On the coaching program now we thought automatically that would mean everyone in the world would want to buy from us, because you know, the average Roi from you know it project is like you know 10% of that.
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David Rock: were like hey we should 17th one hour away, and in fact we had academics review it and we got published in an academic textbook.
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David Rock: The still out there on you know the Roi of coaching and we showed that an internal coaching program could return real Roi measure dollars 17 to one.
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David Rock: Of the span so we're pretty excited by that we thought it would change the world the did almost nothing we learned the.
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David Rock: Roi data does not convince people to to invest in something on its own, it was really kind of sad and the other one that we did that was probably the most meaningful moment in my kind of internal coaching career.
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David Rock: Was we ran a project with memorial sloan kettering cancer research hospital right and.
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David Rock: We I ran that one, and I think I ran all these ones I ran this one, and it was with an internal team who would then coaching the senior doctors.
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David Rock: And the leaders, the physician leaders in the business, and I remember you know we talked about 20 internal coaches and they went off to do their coaching and then we got them back together in a room.
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David Rock: And I still remember that room very well.
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David Rock: There was about 20 or so of the coaches and we literally went around the room and every one of them got a chance to tell the story of one of the coaching engagements that they've done.
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David Rock: And the impact that it had on this position, and this physicians lives and dispositions patients and their way of working and just this crazy stuff.
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David Rock: And it was the most rewarding and in like in like incredible experience that I think I decided at that moment that was what I wanted to do, I just wanted to build internal coaching programs.
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David Rock: I think you join us around that time I was, like, I just wanted to do this, I want to do 1000 of this because it's it changes the world like nothing else I did the same.
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David Rock: And all we did was we created this internal coaches and gave them a structured and follow with the people they're going to coach.
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David Rock: and set up the matching and you know the mentoring and made it happen so we put this whole system in we actually did an Roi on that one as well, and we found a ridiculous 39 to one return on investment.
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David Rock: On that internal coaching program which we kind of we didn't publish formally but we had some flyers and you know we put it out, and again I was like.
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David Rock: Why are people not beating a path to a door on internal coaching with 17 to 139 to one like actual financial Roi it's kind of crazy but.
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David Rock: You know, so we did those the other one was really meaningful was comical eds they got bought by HP.
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David Rock: Is we actually trained a like about 700 coaches inside that organization, who coached thousands of people a year.
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David Rock: And I made a profound impact on the company and and also did manager as coach work there, and it really, really.
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David Rock: Affected them in many ways, but I went on to do some really fun ones with literally economists at a government agency with a lot of cotton economists in DC.
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David Rock: With particle physicists at slack in California with all these amazing people and the smarter they words are, the more they can really jazzed on the framework with just loving the to get people to incite quickly.
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David Rock: So a lot of really meaningful work I kind of sad I don't run the coaching program anymore it's been years since I have Maybe I should.
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David Rock: But we changed it to completely virtual so We tried that like 15 years ago what really well we went back to that with the pandemic, so you can do the program completely virtually now the same exact same program but that those were some of the big things that really inspired me.
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Patricio Ramal: I think for me that impact that it has every time you you either see the participants feedback or either coaching program yourself.
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Patricio Ramal: Is that you know people realize that this is not just for their roles it's also for their life.
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Patricio Ramal: And you've sort of realized that you hit something very meaningful when people say i'm using this in my.
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Patricio Ramal: Family i'm using lose my spouse i'm using it with my children i'm using it with you know friends it's really sort of changed how I think about conversations with people and that's when you know Oh, this is so, so many what which, which leads me to you know.
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Patricio Ramal: The shift on on how how, how come you moved away from you know the focus on coaching conscious what what sort of that transition, but without thinking.
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David Rock: yeah yeah no I tried for like almost a decade and I just we just couldn't build a sustainable profitable business.
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David Rock: Like we just couldn't grow we just found that that, like the core IP was amazing it was transformational and really changing lives.
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David Rock: That we just couldn't build a real business and, and the reason was coaching was always this like you know nice to have it was always important but never urgent.
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David Rock: And you know we get close to these big deals and close this off and then something would happen that was more urgent.
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David Rock: The company would say no sorry we're not going to focus on coaching we're going to focus on this big change that's happening.
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David Rock: or we're going to focus on driving performance, right now, instead, what we're going to focus on something else, so we we just found that there were these really.
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David Rock: Much more urgent things that the company kept you know kind of diverting budgets right, no matter how well we were doing no matter how much we are transforming them.
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David Rock: This was just you know, this is what happened and kind of internal coaching is making a comeback we're continuing to do it.
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David Rock: But we just found that you know there's something and I think I think I remember, was actually.
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David Rock: Someone became a good friend Gary randall from Disney at the time, said, you know you're the work is amazing we love what you do is transformational but we got 250,000 people.
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David Rock: And you know, we want to take the essence of some of this to our people, but there's just no way to do it in the in the way you guys teach like.
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David Rock: And, and you know kind of threw down was challenge, he was the head of talent, the time sort of threw down this challenge and I started hearing this from other companies like.
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David Rock: Is there a way to deconstruct from you know sort of take out the real goodness and make it available to a lot more people, and so we ended up basically saying look we're going to build instead of having a coaching business we're going to have a performance practice.
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David Rock: So we're going to basically help people be better at managing performance right by teaching them coaching skills.
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David Rock: But so we're going to be better they're going to be better at having conversations by teaching coaches, because every to expand to understand.
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David Rock: The consulting side of that so we build this whole capability around consulting and all this other stuff so essentially our first practice was a performance practice with a real focus on quality conversations.
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David Rock: And how do you help companies have quality conversations, and so we started to really scale, including with Disney and Ericsson and.
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David Rock: Any of those we then started to scale these kind of quality conversations training that started to go to thousands of people instead of you know a few hundred.
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David Rock: And then we kind of scaled again later so Those were some of the changes, and you know some of the basic ideas in the programs from way back then like.
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David Rock: You know the taps model so helpful for everyone, you know you're tempted to focus on the problem you tend to focus on the detail instead ask people's questions about their thinking and tap this tell us problem solution.
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David Rock: it's like don't don't tell people what their problem is, you know ask people what they think their solutions out it turns out that insight, you know.
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David Rock: given to people powerfully actually really is game changing, especially when you scale it so that's that's what happened and and for us, we.
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David Rock: We went from working during this usually life changing work with you know 100 liters or 200 leads or 300 liters a year to doing work that was really life changing but with 5 million people a year so it's not as powerful, obviously.
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David Rock: But we still actually having this really meaningful impact, but with you know literally a much, much huge number, and now we have a business that that can research and invest and grow and be sustainable.
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Patricio Ramal: Definitely, I mean all of the the core of our of our IP within that program I think you know it has stood the test of time and I run our education functioning, you know it's it's it's a healthy part of our business and and it's a growing industry coaching is alive and well defensively.
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Patricio Ramal: But I think you know to your point, maybe we can you know, during this last maybe 10 to 15 minutes transition into how do you see these principles.
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Patricio Ramal: Of all of us, learning around coaching weave into the scale work well because, basically, what you're saying is we switch from really have a small impact to huge impact right we wanted him back that scale so that was meaningful.
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Patricio Ramal: But yet somehow we brought these projects with the sorry this idea and we we did in how, how do they really.
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David Rock: yeah let me.
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David Rock: Let me go back a step.
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David Rock: To answer that question so something you know is sort of history about.
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David Rock: organization is these these these level five insights that it happened.
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David Rock: Really, which is, which is the strongest type of insight we defined a model, called the EUREKA scale for the strength of insight level fives like a five on the Richter scale like really, really, really life changing.
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David Rock: And you know, we had I had this insight about insight in our training room with 24 people back in Paddington right but I had another insight in a training room at nyu.
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David Rock: which happened when I started introducing some brain research into the into the classes, we were teaching an nyu and what I what I found was that introducing brain research.
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David Rock: made everyone understand everything much better and provided this bridge between all these different skills that we were teaching.
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David Rock: And so I had this personal interest in brain, since I was 15 literally got reading books and voraciously reading papers and technical book on the brain I don't can't explain why.
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David Rock: But I was just fascinated by the brain and attention and I started introducing that kind of personal interest in about I think is about 2000 2005 or so around the time and.
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David Rock: What I found is that giving people a language, even a basic language of some of the things happening in the brain during coaching was really, really helpful and that That said, is often a path of can we make.
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David Rock: Managers better coaches through understanding the brain.
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David Rock: and actually sat down with our client who, for a long time is the editor of strategy business, and I said hey i've got this great you know, Article for you on the neuroscience of coaching.
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David Rock: And I showed him our data, and all this stuff about inside and stuff and he said that's not a paper on the neuroscience of coaching that's a paper on the neuroscience of leadership.
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David Rock: And I was like haha that's really interesting and we wrote this paper jeffery Schwartz who is one of the main scientists studying under at the time.
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David Rock: And then, without kindness great help we wrote this paper called the neuroscience of leadership that really kicked off the whole field.
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David Rock: And is sort of how we ended up becoming the neuro leadership Institute, so we kick that off that was published I think about 2007 2006 2007.
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David Rock: And it says on this path of understanding, like how to incorporate the brain to make people not just better coaches, but better leaders.
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David Rock: And what we found is that giving people like the basic language for what's going on in the brain as you're interacting super helpful and making them better leaders and that's essentially what we've scaled so kind of.
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David Rock: Bringing people to insight is one piece of that right so what's the neuroscience language for bringing people to incite that's one piece.
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David Rock: But what's the neuroscience language for just keeping someone having an open mind and not reacting to you really badly right that's the scarf model that's one base.
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David Rock: Was the neuroscience language for not making poor decisions, because the bias.
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David Rock: Right that's the seeds model that's one of these, and so we've kind of been building out this language and then scaling that and and ultimately.
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David Rock: Our most successful partnerships and many of them are like five or 10 years old now most successful partnerships are organizations, where they they use this language as kind of a core operating system.
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David Rock: into and then is this is using all these different kinds of leadership applications.
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David Rock: So you know we build these different off the shelf modules and we do custom work, but ultimately it's about giving leaders, a language for leadership, based on the brain.
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David Rock: And you know the coaching became one part of that because leadership is about more than just coaching although that's a you know that's important so that's kind of how it all fits together.
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Patricio Ramal: Great that's right here.
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Patricio Ramal: And I know because we've been working on some of the future opportunities, and you know the BBC is one of the ways that.
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Patricio Ramal: that the public in general can access our work but we're working on other things into what are you most excited about that's coming up in in what we're working on David.
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David Rock: yeah so you know in 1998 we were 100% you know coach training by 2005 we were guided 80% coach training we're now like 90%.
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David Rock: Working with 93% working with organizations, so we still do the coach training program and now it's virtual you can do it anywhere in the world, and I think it starts roughly once a month.
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David Rock: it's a fantastic program the participants are a mix of internal practitioners and companies and external folks.
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David Rock: it's still an amazing program we get exceptional exceptional feedback, but we realize this there's people wanting other things.
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David Rock: We built a program called the certificate in the foundations of neuro leadership which is giving people a six month walkthrough of the of the deeper neuroscience of leadership, so if you're a change practitioner or any sort your facilitator coach manager leader.
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David Rock: Instructions on anything it's fantastic fantastically helpful to go through this program so it's a six month online program it's been online since the start that gives you access to the deeper research.
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David Rock: behind that work, the other The other thing which we're just launching and it was originally launched in June we pushed it back to September for a bunch of good reasons.
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David Rock: But this this one is only for internal practitioners, so people inside organizations, just because of the way it's structured and this one we're still debating the name.
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David Rock: But it's it's essentially a three month program for di practitioners.
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David Rock: To really build a deeper understanding of the of the of the science and the practice of building a di practice.
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David Rock: So we'll have about 30 participants in that program for many amazing organizations essentially collaborating together for three months to walk through the deeper science of di.
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David Rock: After that we'll probably do a version for performance for people running performance practices, and then we might do one for Heads of town and learning so ultimately will probably have three.
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David Rock: Different suites of these programs that give folks a chance to.
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David Rock: You know dive deeply and maybe someone from my team can put the link into that program as well it's currently called the DTI masterclass we're debating the.
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David Rock: The the program name so there's kind of three different things that that are available as individual contributors or two things as individual contributors and one is an internal.
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David Rock: practitioner as well, that you can that you can access, I say we should wrap up in a couple of minutes I just do see one question I love to answer from Elizabeth.
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David Rock: And you know level five insights a life changing if you're a facilitator of a really powerful Program.
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David Rock: you're you're doing amazingly in like a really powerful intense long program you're doing amazingly if you get like a third to a half of the group, having a level five inside.
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David Rock: The level level five inside is one that changes everything level, for if you're a facilitator change agent author writer screenwriter whatever you really want level for insights there, the big motivating moments that we remember for years.
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David Rock: level five insights you remember forever level for your event for years Level three it's kind of Nice You might remember for weeks or months.
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David Rock: But it's it's something you're with some implications levels to you hardly remember at all like they come and go and Level one is the feeling of insight, coming just to the EUREKA scale.
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David Rock: So level five insights pretty rare it's really hard to have level five insights with any baseline of stress, you need you need a really open mind.
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David Rock: You need calm and, ultimately, you know the leaders that's a meeting, it creates a threat response in the team Before saying anything.
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David Rock: So the leader of any team in person or virtual needs to work really hard to send positive signals that turns down threat responses.
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David Rock: To maximize the possibility of inside and ask more thinking questions and lift people's thinking up so you know the team leader, you know, can do a lot in terms of sending these positive scarf signals.
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David Rock: Someone I mentioned scarf and there's all these positives golf signals that kind of increase the chance of insight, you know, ultimately, when we run a big cost of leadership Program.
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David Rock: We end up teaching people how to kind of as leaders and managers, how to create this towards date with people how to facilitate inside.
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David Rock: And, and how to really get people into action, those are kind of three really core skills that make you a much, much better communicator leader parent partner everything you know created towards date facilitate insight.
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David Rock: enable action kind of becomes the a little bit of the mantra as some of the things that you that you learn.
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David Rock: But we probably should wrap up it's so wonderful to revisit some of these stories and and and the history, I hope, this has been interesting.
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David Rock: Interesting to you and kind of helpful to you, I do before we wrap up Can we just throw the poll up for folks who want to jump off get to the next thing let's throw the pole up so we know how to help you.
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David Rock: And Patrice do any other questions that you want to cover or anything else in the chat there.
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Patricio Ramal: This was one final bothers you some questions, but I think I can sum it out to to the difference with with the other approaches right in, and I know.
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Patricio Ramal: Some of you will reacting to these quality conversations in anatomy we actually define those Dino quality conversations versus crucial conversations and other things that are out there i'd love to get your final thoughts on that before we.
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David Rock: Call yeah yeah you know, there was an organization I spoken to recently, who will remain nameless but they they talking about rolling out crucial conversations and no offense to the crucial conversations people but it's a seven step complex model that.
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David Rock: That kind of does something similar to to to you know something we can do with three steps and it's you know it's it's um.
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David Rock: You know the basically for us, and this is the essence of that connect program which kind of generalized is that coaching program the critical habits and three steps is you know, firstly like.
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David Rock: Reduce threat or said in the positive you know, create a towards state.
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David Rock: Right and we do that through understanding scarf and you know, creating more relatedness more autonomy or choice, asking permission this kind of thing so So the first step to a quality conversation is reducing the threat.
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David Rock: You know the second step is facilitating an insight and the third step is is really doing all of that, with a growth mindset so you're helping people grow and learn not just kind of justify.
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David Rock: So you can reorder those steps in different ways we've tried to different as well, but ultimately a quality conversation is one where you know you're trying to help someone who's stuck and they get unstuck.
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David Rock: And we continue to find the role of insight is really, really a you know central in that process so.
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David Rock: You know, so you know to wrap up or summarize, you know right back in 1997 1998.
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David Rock: You know Lisa rocket and I were like building this the jury week by week trying to.
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David Rock: Trying to deconstruct what happens in a conversation that really moves people right that makes people smile makes them, you know unpack problems.
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David Rock: You know, is there a year and a half during that we then taught thousands of people and then notice the insight was the core.
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David Rock: We then notice that teaching people about the brain enable those insights and more broadly.
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David Rock: And then now we've seen this kind of generalized like you know let's make people smarter overall.
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David Rock: By understanding the brain so it's been a really fascinating evolution, but we still love running the brain based coaching it's still you know it's still there and.
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David Rock: You know, definitely check it out if you're interested in that so thanks for the opportunity to share all this back to you Patricia.
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Patricio Ramal: Thank you, David for such an a table conversation, and some of the stories I knows always.
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Patricio Ramal: happy to continue to to learn about analyze past and how we know come to grow and accelerate in the last few years now, thank you for your answers on the pole.
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Patricio Ramal: If you, you know there's a couple of options in you know if you want us to reach out to you please answer the poll or put your name in the chat and you know we'll have somebody reach out to you immediately.
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Patricio Ramal: And i'm happy to hand it back to you from closing remarks Thank you so much for this time and such a wonderful conversation David good afternoon.
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Patricio Ramal: Thanks everyone.
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Evynn McFalls: thanks for your thanks David procession insightful conversation, and thank you to the Community for joining us today.
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Evynn McFalls: As we are making our way out just again, please take some time to let us know how we can help you in the poll.
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Evynn McFalls: A walk through a couple of closing announcements, just to make sure that you're up to speed on what's coming up next here from dinner leadership Institute.
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Evynn McFalls: Again, all sessions, for your brain network live are made available in recorded on demand format, you can find that on the neuro leadership COM website.
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Evynn McFalls: In addition, right now we are conducting some research about what's hot me in the workplace.
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Evynn McFalls: We would love to hear about your insights about how you're experiencing flexibility or autonomy in the workplace, and what that looks like for you, so you can go ahead and take that survey by following the link that was shared in the chat by our colleague from.
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Evynn McFalls: For those of you who are senior executives, if you enjoy brain your brain at work, live we think you'll love our and ally inside of Program.
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Evynn McFalls: We invite you to join this exclusive opportunity where you can access benefits such as first looks at new research Roundtable discussions with leading executives of researches.
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Evynn McFalls: and helping us crap new innovations that were to apply follow the link that will be shared in the chat that link is neuro leadership.com forward slash insiders.
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Evynn McFalls: For those of you who are looking to help us to make organizations more human through science great news we are hiring if you're interested in exploring opportunities with us go ahead and visit neuro leadership.com forward slash careers, we look forward to hearing from you.
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Evynn McFalls: we're already working on our next summit so those of you enjoyed summit 2022 as well as those of you who are looking for future innovations in the world of work.
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Evynn McFalls: Please note that we will be sharing information, a little bit later in the year keep your eyes peeled.
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Evynn McFalls: If you enjoyed today's session or want to spread the word we do have a podcast you can find more information about that at neuro leadership.com forward slash podcast.
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Evynn McFalls: The your brain at work, live sessions to get translated into that format and we add a little bit.
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Evynn McFalls: Extra possess for you there, so please go ahead and find it on the neuro leadership calm website or wherever you look are wherever you listen to podcasts.
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Evynn McFalls: With all of that said it's time for me to say farewell, on behalf of today's guests, the.
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Evynn McFalls: team and everybody in the Community, I say thank you for being such a wonderful part of our weekly Community learning session, we look forward to bringing you back with us next week and i'm bidding you a happy, prosperous and generative weekend take care.