This week on Your Brain at Work Live!, join Dr. David Rock and Rachel Cardero to learn how AI is transforming leadership and management development. If you’re a leader, manager, executive, entrepreneur, creative professional, change maker or center of influence at work, you won’t want to miss the opportunity to see how specialized AI can help solve for everything from leadership dilemmas to team dynamics in ways regular generative AI simply cannot.
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Rachel Cardero: And welcome to another week of your brain at work. We're so happy to have you
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Rachel Cardero: welcome to all of those on the line. I'm Rachel. I'm your host this week.
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Rachel Cardero: Big welcome to those that are joining us again for our regulars. If you're a newcomer, we're very excited to have you as well. We'd love to hear from you in the chat we love. When you all give us shout outs, please let us know. Give us your name. Tell us where you are.
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Rachel Cardero: Give us a big hello in the chat.
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Rachel Cardero: So, as I mentioned, I'm Rachel Cardera, and I'm your host for today, we will be recording this episode. If you're participating with us today, we are gonna send you an email with the recording. And there'll also be an email with a survey for Feedback.
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Rachel Cardero: I already see some of you with your big Hello's Hi, Lucille!
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Rachel Cardero: Hi, Sarah!
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Rachel Cardero: Wonderful to see you all!
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Rachel Cardero: I'm very excited to be joining you all today. I'm Rachel Cardeau. I am analyze head of product and advisory services, and I'm excited to be interviewing our co-founder and CEO. Dr. David Rock to be talking about a special topic. AI,
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Rachel Cardero: every day we're seeing AI pop up more and more, and I can tell you, for those of you if we haven't met yet. If we haven't interacted. I've been at Ni for over 10 years now, helping organizations really use the science our IP to make work easier. I have a background in research. And I work on some of our largest and most complicated client
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Rachel Cardero: engagements. Been working with David closely for over 10 years. David is our CEO and co-founder, David. You've written over 4 books. You've been featured in Hbr. The New York Times. You coined neural leadership. I'd love to introduce and welcome Dr. David Rock to the webinar today.
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Rachel Cardero: Hi, David.
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Dr. David Rock: Great to be here. It's been a decade. Wow, amazing. We've done so much.
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Dr. David Rock: We've done so much in that time. Amazing.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah. And I know we have so many people that join us week to week to learn to tap into the science for some of our newcomers. I'd love to hear from you in 2 min. Tell us the history of Ni. Tell us you know where we've come from.
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Dr. David Rock: It's I mean, it's been a 26 year overnight. Success. These things are but if you, if you you know, knew us back then. In fact, we have a 24 year employee in Australia where we started. If you knew us back, then there's some very common themes all the way through the organization. And we've always been about helping smart people be smarter
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Dr. David Rock: and we've kind of gone through a lot of big transformations starting out really as a, as a, as a coaching organization. We've now trained about 25,000 coaches around the world, but we became a Coaching Culture company fairly early on in like year 2,000 and did a lot of work around coaching culture and then realize that
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Dr. David Rock: coaching was kind of always important, never urgent. What what really mattered to organizations was performance. And you know, people and driving, you know, success to the organization. And we we transformed about a decade ago around when you arrive, we transform to really focusing on organizational issues.
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Dr. David Rock: and particularly focused on like really building habits. I guess we took the coaching work and said, All right, we're experts in real change. How do we scale that? How do we scale real change? And so we've been building these.
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Dr. David Rock: these, this world of IP around
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Dr. David Rock: impact scale and speed
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Dr. David Rock: across very large audiences, using, I guess, principles of coaching in a way. So it now looks like whole of company transformation.
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Dr. David Rock: So last year it was about 3 million employees became more effective in some way. Built built new habits.
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Dr. David Rock: But across about 300 organizations. So until recently, we haven't done anything really for the public, it's been all, you know, very organizationally focused and but the thread through all of it has been a a few things. One is making smart people smarter, and the second thread is, is is actually by understanding the brain
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Dr. David Rock: that's been there, you know, from the very, very beginning.
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Dr. David Rock: And we've been, you know, really, really excited about the incredible developments in you know, in brain research, and then
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Dr. David Rock: would be kind of waiting for technology to catch up, to be able to do something with all this research and you know, we're excited about the potential for for AI. So that's the kind of the snapshot we're a team about 200. We've worked with 2 thirds of the fortune, 100 and you know we're we do a ton of original research. Then we advise, and then we also do big change initiatives as well. But you know, today, we're gonna talk about research and kind of some big ideas. But hopefully, that's helpful to give people some some context.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, yeah. And I, I love to tell people, you know, I know I likes to look for complex problems, big problems, anywhere that we see people spending a lot of time, a lot of energy, a lot of money.
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Rachel Cardero: and not always getting a lot of return or getting return is really complex, like, those are the places where you like to lean in. And we like to lean in and say, Hmm! There's something here. The science is. Gonna help us?
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Rachel Cardero: And we're here to talk about AI today, which is, I think, such a hot topic. Everybody's asking, How can I get return on AI, how can I use AI?
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Rachel Cardero: I I wonder if you could tell us and those watching like how you see, analyze research really helping?
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Rachel Cardero: In the world of AI. How's our work relevant.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, I mean, it's it's it's super relevant. It's like, I mean, we, we study you know the way people like make decisions right. The way people actually process information.
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Dr. David Rock: We study like the the capacity limits of of our working memory and how to get around them.
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Dr. David Rock: That's so central to like the interfacing, you know, with AI, but also like, why do people actually do what they do? And how do you actually motivate people better to do what they should be doing. And you know what are the biases that get in the way of of you know of of the decision good decision making. And also like, How do you actually get team? So you know, fundamentally, we're we're looking at the
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Dr. David Rock: really, the cognitive habits of, you know, good leadership management, and even just working generally. So if you if you're then saying, Look, how do we accelerate
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Dr. David Rock: our cognitive capacity? It helps tremendously to actually have a fundamental understanding of what that cognitive capacity is individually and and and you know, in groups. So so we're kind of really well placed to to think about that.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, yeah.
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Rachel Cardero: I hear a lot from people, you know, work is changing so much. And then also, work is the same, like sometimes issues that were coming up 25 years ago, 30 years ago, 50 years ago. You know, we're still asking ourselves, how can we help people perform better? How can we keep them motivated?
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Rachel Cardero: You've been observing workplaces for over 25 years now, 26 plus years through that neuro leadership lens. I'm wondering what you're noticing about AI, the growing popularity, how people are interacting with it.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, it's it's a great question. So actually started to think about this like 5 or 6 years ago.
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Dr. David Rock: When we first started to see kind of voice, recognition happening and stuff. And I, I think.
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Dr. David Rock: there's there's been these really really big big transformations in in technology. And therefore, how we work over the last, you know, 20 years. But it's actually history. But I think the way to understand it is is is to think about humans and technology and how we interface
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Dr. David Rock: and and bear with me, I'll I'll slow down and kind of explain the story. But but when when people first started interfacing with technology, it was literally like punch cards on like these giant Ibm machines that you know helped man get to the moon. You know these these in these, you know, machines the size of a room that now, you know, phones are massively better than but these were punch cards, so not that many people could create these punch cards and use these machines. You know it was a pretty low number of people.
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Dr. David Rock: What happened is is as things evolved, it became kind of hard coding like this machine language. And you've seen that around, like, you know, like the matrix, that sort of green numbers right so again. Not that many people could do that
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Dr. David Rock: like, you know, your average grandparent wasn't hard coding right? The study somewhere, but it was a limited number of people, also limited number of uses for computers. Right? What happened next was a big big breakthrough. We went to like basic language. We went from like numbers to words.
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Dr. David Rock: And when it went from numbers to words in the way you program computers lot more. People learn to program. And a lot more things got programmed right? You know. So it's a huge bump. So each of these was a huge bump in the number of uses and the number of uses, right users and uses.
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Dr. David Rock: Then we went from like
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Dr. David Rock: basic language to whizzy wig. And that's people old enough to remember was like the first you know, Apple Macintosh the first you know windows machines where you you didn't need to code with words. You could move stuff around right? It was a huge, huge breakthrough in the number of people who used computers
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Dr. David Rock: and the number of uses right? We went from that to touch screens. Right? The phone again. A massive breakthrough. Now it became billions. Now, with pretty much everyone is using a computer like even in, you know, the sub-saharan Africa pretty much everyone you know. Most of the world's population is interfacing with the computer, and the uses are almost infinite, right with the touch screen. But what's interesting is that what AI is doing is giving us another interface breakthrough in that
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Dr. David Rock: in the all of these different breakthroughs basically required not just less training and less learning, but less working memory, like less of your intellectual capacity or your just your brain capacity in the moment
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Dr. David Rock: to go from. Oh, I want to, you know, do a task to doing that task with technology like first, it was like days of punching holes right? And then it was like moments. But now, with AI like it will kind of imagine the tasks you need. Do you know, doing for you. It learns you right. But also you can just talk
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Dr. David Rock: and you could just say, you know, and it'll understand what you mean, you know. Hey, siri, you know. Get me a flight to Houston, and it knows
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Dr. David Rock: that your preferred airline. It knows your, you know. See? Configuration. It's it's, you know, so just a lot less effort. And and of course, now the users are pretty much infinite.
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Dr. David Rock: So I so I think of AI as a as an interface breakthrough, and with every interface breakthrough there's been major opportunities in the business world like major major transformations in how we work, and I think this one will be just to speak, but it actually all comes back to how hard it is to actually get anything done in the world with this brain, and the easier we make it to interface with technology, the more our brains can actually do. Just because it's, you know, we have such limited capacity. So that's kind of the way the way I see it.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, yeah. And I do think I mean, it's striking every day. Like, if you think about at a local level, our kids in schools. There's computers everywhere. You can't enter an elevator without there being a screen. And then at that global scale like you mentioned, I mean, most remote locations, Antarctica. Those scientists have their computers. Extreme climate. There's computers, you know, the big cities like everywhere.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, yeah, that's everywhere.
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Rachel Cardero: And I I feel like it's so funny how like thinking about it as an interface. I had to think about this for a while. But those changes are not. They're not always apparent to people.
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Rachel Cardero: and like I myself have found myself, you know, saying I don't need this interface yet, or like. I remember buying a TV a couple of years ago with my husband and being like, Why do I need a smart TV? I can just connect 50 devices to it. It's a, you know. Human interaction with these interfaces is complex.
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Rachel Cardero: yeah. The second.
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Dr. David Rock: See, there's a long history actually, of human behaviors tracking quite a bit behind. Technology changes. Right? That's been a there's sort of a long history of that. You know, I've been spending a lot of time with Ceos lately doing these half day retreats with like 20 Ceos in energy or technology or
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Dr. David Rock: different groups. It's been fascinating. I've really got a chance to to see what what like. You know, hundreds of leaders are thinking about, you know with AI now. And I saw there was this sort of first, like wave of overwhelming excitement. Maybe a year ago. It's like, Oh, everything's gonna change really fast.
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Dr. David Rock: right? And you know, Microsoft, data that came out in the last week or 2 is really interesting. About 3 quarters of people are using AI in some ways, but about half of those people. It's just in the last 6 months they've started.
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Dr. David Rock: and about half of the people using it are actually bringing their own device to work. And and the reason to that is is, a lot of companies have gone. Hey, Nelly Hoe, just just a moment. There's some real issues with you know, privacy and risk and all sorts of things. But actually, there's some real issues that this stuff is $20 a month per person, for you know.
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Dr. David Rock: Right? That's actually a pretty big issue. If you've got 10,000 employees that really adds up, you know. So it's so. I think. Also, the sort of cost issue is is having Ceos to sort of minimal usage of it. It's not like every company is just going. Everyone gets this all the time. But and and I think it's gonna pretty quickly. The basic AI tools be ubiquitous. Be just like, you know, like you get grammar test and spell check, you know, in in all the platforms. Right? You're not paying extra to have spell check.
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Dr. David Rock: It's just in Google, it's in Microsoft is in everywhere. It's expected. Right? So I think AI is just going to be synonymous with computing power to a degree.
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Dr. David Rock: And then there'll be these kind of specialized tools that you might pay extra for. So I think that's the sort of the trend I I noticed, you know, in Skype. You can use co-pilot. Now, you know Microsoft Co. Pilot, ask a question. It's like, Wow, it's already kind of there. It's a part down version, but it's still kind of there. So I I think that's the way it's going. Certainly, like, if you're, you know, there are certain industries that are being very disrupted. Like, if you're a translator, your jobs
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Dr. David Rock: not really needed anymore as much because you can do that, you know, using AI so certain tasks. But on the whole, companies aren't doing this massive downsizing. If anything, they're scrambling to hire AI people to think about. You know, AI more deliberative. That's that's kind of what we're seeing at the moment.
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Rachel Cardero: And part of what I hear. And what you're saying is.
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Rachel Cardero: people are expecting these tools and they're going out there and doing it themselves, finding their own tools, diwying things from an AI perspective. And you see all these organizations trying to. I've I've heard this from my clients, but trying to
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Rachel Cardero: harness that energy and say, No, no, no, you all come with some random practices or different ways of doing things, and like we want you to have good habits. We want you to have.
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Dr. David Rock: Have.
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Rachel Cardero: Solid habits when it comes to technology and how you apply it at work.
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Rachel Cardero: And we're, you know. I like to think of us as obsessed with habits. Our habit masters. We've that's our core business. We've been helping people, I think, over 3 million people at this point.
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Rachel Cardero: I wonder if you could tell us a little bit more about those cognitive habits, the habits that help people use AI better.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, it's a, it's a really important question. And we we don't like to weigh into any topic unless we have a like, a a real point of view that is, is not just sort of trivial, and is actually helpful and is unique, you know. Cause. And there's lots of people thinking about this and talking about, you know. So we're I will say we're sort of in the early, with sort of the middle of the beginning of thinking about this. We don't have like a fully fleshed out answer yet, but we've got some directions and some hunches
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Dr. David Rock: as to kind of the right way to to to, you know. Apply this
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Dr. David Rock: but I think that I think there's something to the
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Dr. David Rock: I I think there's something to sort of the just to go back 1 point, though.
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Dr. David Rock: there's something to sort of the half the people are bringing things themselves. I I saw in the Microsoft data. It's a really fascinating study just out that the the reason people are using it, or what they're seeing is is, is, people are finding actually works more fun again.
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Dr. David Rock: and then more creative, right and then more productive. So we don't see that very often sort of a tool that makes people actually more creative and more productive. So so this, you know, there's good things here. But it does seem really important that you actually use it. Just right. So we've been looking at it, saying, how?
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Dr. David Rock: What are the habits of mind?
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Dr. David Rock: Consistent to, you know all industries, all levels or countries, right or companies everything. What are the habits of my, the cognitive habits that will make people the most productive at using AI or the most creative right? So we're we're looking at those things. And we actually think this sort of
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Dr. David Rock: 2 ways to think about this. Firstly, there's basically work you're doing in the moment. And then there's actually like reinventing whole processes. And there's slightly different things, right? So the the the doing
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Dr. David Rock: work in the moment this is really interesting. Right? Th everyone says, oh, we gotta learn to write prompts. But what is it about? Prompts? Right? You actually have to learn how to diverge like create, more divergent thinking. Which takes a little bit of an understanding of the biases that creep in a little bit of an understanding of the way we get kind of locked into schemas, this ability to really break out of those schemas.
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Dr. David Rock: This ability to to like, create insights and and kind of really expand your thinking. So it takes, you know, a little bit of a growth mindset, a little bit of an understanding of
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Dr. David Rock: of like really how to kind of break out of molds and then also an ability to like, mentalize and put yourself in someone else's shoes. So there's all these really interesting capacities. And it's very trainable. And a little bit of training. You can get people much, much better at kind of asking these prompts, and like following through with them. Right? So that's one piece of it. The other piece of it is
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Dr. David Rock: is. Then, once you've sort of got a whole lot of information, how do you know what's right, and I think AI is fantastic for them creating filters.
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Dr. David Rock: Right? So you got sort of prompts. Then you got filters, and the filters are sort of after you've diverged and come up with a thousand ideas. How do you use AI to filter to just the right ones? How do you create just the right filters. And again, looking at sort of, you know, really understanding, divergent thinking, understanding bias, but also understanding kind of execution.
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Dr. David Rock: Can make you much better at the filter. So, you know, prompts and filters, we think we can build, you know, really better habits in those with some of the neuroscience making that easier. Right? And then the second part, I won't spend as much time up. The second part is sort of as just trying to review a system, this collecting data, this finding insights in those data. And then there's driving real behavior change with that.
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Dr. David Rock: And you know, in that realm
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Dr. David Rock: really, really helpful to understand insight itself and what they are and how to find them, how to measure them right, and also, of course, really helpful to understand human behavior change if you're trying to do that. So we've been. So we've been sort of putting those 2 categories kind of real time, and then systems into a sort of a body of work we're we're calling it augment
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Dr. David Rock: and and we think there's some really fantastic habits that people can learn that are consistent across sort of all types of usage. So augment is like a a sort of solution in development. We're actually looking for partners who want to pilot this with us?
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Dr. David Rock: Who, you know, to to build this out together? And if you're from an organization, and you're interested in having a conversation about that just put augment and your company name in the chat, and someone will follow up with you, augment and your company name. If you're from an organization and interested potentially in a conversation to to, you know, to do a at least a pilot with that, and possibly further, so we think there's something there
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Dr. David Rock: in sort of teaching people just to to have the right habits. And really, that's probably like every employee, certainly, every manager, maybe even every employee. So that's that's the worst way we're seeing it. And we think our research on insight, on capacity, on bias, on these things can be really really helpful. There.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, we got a great question in the chat. How can AI be used as a force multiplier for people instead of a replacement for people. And I think part of what you're highlighting.
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Rachel Cardero: understanding how the brain works, understanding different modes of thinking, new connections like it's really actually tapping into the human. I'm I'm wondering like, what do you think is the force multiplier like that secret ingredient?
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, I think it's I think. I mean, of course, you know, we have a hammer. So everything looks like a nail. But we we do think understanding the brain is really really helpful, like understanding, you know. Not just hey, we have bias, for example, but the 5 categories of bias. And really being able to apply that to actual scenarios in real time. Like, like a really good understanding of why people do what they do. You know how people make mistakes.
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Dr. David Rock: The limits of cognitive capacity like these things moment to moment really help you interface with you know, with with technologies much, much better. I think it's I think that's where it's going.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah.
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Rachel Cardero: And I know we really really thought about that when we started building our own AI and I know we've been working on that for a while, you know. Tell us where that where that spark came from, where it came from.
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Dr. David Rock: We. We have this interesting thing, and I guess it's my crazy brain. I I I've
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Dr. David Rock: I just like to follow the energy right. I like to. You know, I'm sort of creative. And I I really like to sort of see where the energy is, and we've done all sorts of crazy experiments. You've seen it in 10 years. We've done all sorts of experiments, and a good number of them in nowhere, and and and every now and then we get something really, really right, like we did with, you know, the bias work?
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Dr. David Rock: But but we do a lot of experiments right? And one of the things we said about a decade ago was, Let's let's actually challenge ourselves to really, really go. Digital. And the reason wanted to do that is, we, you know, something like the scarf model, for example, is so helpful. We we you know we're told every day. Right?
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Dr. David Rock: So helpful is so many situations, so many people like. But it's, you know, we taught it to 3 million people last year. But really that should be 30 million or 300 million. We're like, how do we really scale and and we said, Look, let's, let's really, really think about some kind of digital transformation. And at the time. To be honest, we had no idea what that was. But we. We landed firstly, on this basic principle that we're not in the content business or the you know, the training business. We're in the habit business.
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Dr. David Rock: like, you know, going back to our coaching routes. We're in the business of really creating human change, not like restructuring companies. Or, like, you know, we're we're in the business of really building new habits like, that's what we're best at. So we said, How do we apply that to technology and did a lot of research and thinking? And we realized that like a whole new type of platform needed to be created like a you know, you've got the Lms right, which is a whole new type of platform to just Powerpoint slides right?
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Dr. David Rock: So so what can we evolve? How can we evolve just as much from the Lms to something even more powerful? And we developed what we call the habit activation platform.
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Dr. David Rock: which is a concept of bringing people together into a cohort, getting them working over time, which is a critical factor. So you know, social learning and overtime absolutely necessary conditions. But then the third necessary condition, which was really critical, is is actually creating really like a good level of insight, like like a pretty strong Aha! Moment for people. And so we've been experimenting for decades, really, with how do you create insights at scale?
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Dr. David Rock: And coming up with all these different strategies and testing and like, that's been one of our grandest experiments. How do we create insights at scale? And you know, if you say to me like, Oh, you know, I want people to be better at, you know managing emotions, I can tell you the actual insights they need, and what's the best like story? And what's the best science to get them to that insight? That's kind of the architecture we've been building the right story, the right science for the right insight to build the right habit. So we've been like.
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Dr. David Rock: alright, how do we kind of create a platform that creates insights socially over time. And then we built that. And we just launched that in literally February for the first time with with one solution. And we're gonna slowly put all our solutions all our 30 day sprints into this habit activation platform. And I think we did a session about that at some point, or we're going to. But just on what this platform concept is. So you're gonna see a lot more from us. But
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Dr. David Rock: what we did, the sort of first solution we put out. There is, we said. Look, we've got all these amazing modules on growth, mindset and mitigating bias and better feedback. And all this stuff, you know, 15 of these modules. But we've never had this like foundational leadership model or sort of manager or leadership program that
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Dr. David Rock: gave everyone the basics right that. And and we found there's a huge gap in that, and we'd been building custom versions of this a long time. We said, Alright, let's build something that gives managers, like all the things they need and how do we do it? So we launched lead. It's now a 6 month experience. We did something we've never done before, which was, we've opened it to the public my team can maybe put a a link
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Dr. David Rock: in the chat to that. So it's now available for individual contributors anywhere. They don't even have to work for a company to, you know, to get in and learn this this work. So we created lead and lead basically takes you 15 min a week for 6 months through all the foundations you'd need to be a better manager or leader, but based on understanding your brain right with a lens of growth, mindset.
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Dr. David Rock: with a lens of psychological safety, with a lens of accountability as well, you know, and very much an inclusive approach. And you know all about more creativity, customer centricity, all of this. So it's it's not a program, you know, perfect for every company, but perfect, for certainly all knowledge companies and stem companies, and even just, you know, anywhere where there's folks who you know, need to perform better. So you know, you're not just like driving people into the ground. You're trying to, you know.
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Dr. David Rock: engage and inspire people. It's a good fit, anyway. I digress what what we saw along the way is we was, we were imagining, like people using this and the 6 months of of amazing experiences in this. And I was having this kind of brain freeze of going.
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Dr. David Rock: What if someone joins the program and week 2 they go. I'm I'm having a real conflict with this person what you know like. That's not till like month 5, right? Or they come in and say, Look, I really wanna run shorter meetings. I'm loving these first 2 months learning about my brain. But today I need to run shorter meetings. And at first we're like, well, let's let them jump around in the program.
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Dr. David Rock: And then I had this big flash of insight. And it was, you know, there's these 2 types of learning this just in case learning which is what leaders.
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Dr. David Rock: But there's also, like, you know, learning in the flow of work, right? Which is, is like, you're doing something, and you're learning as you're doing it. I was like, Wow, there's so much in here. Wouldn't it be amazing if you could literally ask any question, and you could get an answer straight away. We thought first of all about a human coach, and we realized how impossible that was. But then we said, Alright, let's see if it's possible was a crazy idea at the time.
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Dr. David Rock: like no one in our team understands AI or anything like this, we said, let's see if it's possible to build an AI
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Dr. David Rock: and power it with the, you know, thousands of pieces of content and thousands of ideas. We've developed that all fit together.
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Dr. David Rock: So that someone can come into lead and and and say like on the first hour, Oh, look! Help me run better meetings, you know. Show me what to do and get just exactly the right answer that you need right and be able to dig in. And all this. So the guy
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Dr. David Rock: the time it was like, this sounds crazy. And yet, somehow, you know, we have some amazing, amazing, talented people, and we're able to pull something together, and we just launched it. We decided, it's neuro intelligence, not just artificial intelligence. So we call it a neuro, intelligent leadership enhancing system or niles. For sure. Right? So Niles is actually using, in fact.
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Dr. David Rock: Rachel, you use Niles. You know.
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Rachel Cardero: Use it all the time.
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Dr. David Rock: How many times a day are you using Niles? Right? You know, these days? I know you just had it for a few weeks.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, all so definitely every time I have to write an email that's taking me too long every time I'm going into a meeting where I want like to leave people feeling inspired at least 5, 1020 times a day. I I can't even keep count.
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Dr. David Rock: It's a lot. It's a lot. I'm using it all the time, like I've got it open all the time. It's super super helpful, and you know it's it's essentially like the best best. Gbt, you can get out there right like. So we've built on open AI the best, but actually then fine tuned with all our research. So so so we see Niles as a as a more human AI,
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Dr. David Rock: right? This is a really important tagline. And no one can steal that cause. That's our tagline, for Niles are more human. AI. It literally is something that you know, gives you answers, but actually understands humans better than normal. AI like actually understands what human capacity and human bias right and how to get people to do things. And you know how to create more insights. And you know, all our research is actually about humans.
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Dr. David Rock: So we're putting all that. So that's that's what that's what Niles is, and it's you know, we've just kind of given it to our own employees just in the last couple of weeks. And we're still at version, you know, 1.5. It's still early is a lot still to train it on, and lots and lots to go. But we've actually started opening it to organizations as well. I think our first partners are rolling it out you know, this this month, so we're as you can tell, pretty excited. But before I, you know, dive into everything. Where did where did you want to go next? There, Rachel.
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Rachel Cardero: Well, we got some questions in the chat. So somebody asked, Where can I interact with Niles? And we even have some folks that are using Niles right now. Anybody that is part of the lead program gets to use and benefit from Niles. But where can people access? Niles.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah. So right now, we've created like a sort of holding place. And it's just ask niles.ai. You don't need anything else. Ask Niles as K. And I, alias. Just ask niles.ai. If you put that in. If you have problems with that, ask niles.com also works but ask niles.ai gets you there and you'll get. You'll basically fill in a form. And then shortly, when we open that to all all individuals. You'll get access to that. We're gonna do some time free with that
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Dr. David Rock: to, you know. Get to use it. So if you're from a company you're interested. Just put Niles and your company name, and we'll talk to you about getting a pilot going in your company to, you know 100 people or so to start using it. And that's a little bit more of a commercial model, obviously. But if you're from a company, just put Niles your company name and someone will reach out to you, but it's it'll be accessible to individuals shortly. But definitely get on that list. Get on that waiting list to
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Dr. David Rock: to to start to use it.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah. And I mean what you're saying about just to go back to something you said about learning in the flow of work.
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Rachel Cardero: I talked to so many people that are thinking about, you know, 70, 2010 all the time. You know, where 70% of learning happens on the job in the field, on the plant floor, and so many Hr. Professionals, talent, professionals, managers wondering, how can I facilitate that? 70? How can I? It feels so wild.
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Rachel Cardero: and it feels like well, it just happens when it happens. And I love that Niles is actually your leadership coach in your pocket. It's out there in the wild with you.
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Rachel Cardero: And I I like I really appreciate those flashes of insight like your hypothesis that leaders and managers in particular need a specialized
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Rachel Cardero: AI tool. You know, we're seeing so many specialized AI tools. We're seeing. Lawyers have their own tools. They have packs, and AI and Wes saw AI and healthcare has diagnostic tools and AI powered clinical decision systems. And can you tell us a little bit about why you think leaders and managers need a special AI tool.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, right? Cause maybe you know, this doesn't need to exist. Right? Maybe you know, you just go to Skype and ask co-pilot in Skype a question or anything right?
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Dr. David Rock: and the the reality is, I think, for managers and leaders. They have a certain like set of needs, like a like a lawyer. AI, that helps you like, you know, really like write. You know, legal documents has to be a very specialized AI, right? And I actually think managers and leaders need a very specialized AI as well. And there's a there's a few qualities. It needs it it. The the first thing is, it actually needs to give you answers that are very actionable
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Dr. David Rock: and direct, not like a list of 12 things you could try. But like, here's what Research says is like the best thing you could probably try or let me ask a question or 2 more, so I can work that out for you. Right? But really giving people like something actionable, something right without taking away all autonomy. That's one thing.
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Dr. David Rock: you know, managers and leaders are very busy. They're not students. They're not researchers, right? They they want to know what they can do. Right? That's the first thing. Second thing is, they also should have the ability to dig in further. If you say to a manager like, Hey, you know, maybe in this instance don't tell someone what to do. Maybe try asking them a question.
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Dr. David Rock: The management might be like, Why would I want to do that? And you? You need to be able to click in for people who want to and kind of go a click deeper to explain, like
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Dr. David Rock: what happens in the brain when you just tell people an answer versus ask them. And here's that what that looks like, and maybe even a click deeper. So it's sort of like reversing the whole training process and starting with the leaders question, and then being able to dig in, dig in. And and I think that will disrupt a lot of training because it will become less necessary in time. But I but I think that's a so first thing is very, very actionable, very simple, quite headline. But then the ability to click in and dig in. You can't do that without a consistent research base. Right?
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Dr. David Rock: The third one. And this is a really difficult one, is the the the A management. AI needs to be Co, really, really coherent to like the world of work generally. Right? So you know. So if you if you talk about.
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Dr. David Rock: you know meetings that doesn't think you're talking about AI. Me sorry AI meetings or something, right? Or you know Pta meetings. It knows you're talking about workplace meetings right, and but also it should be consistent to that industry, and maybe even that company. Right? If you're, you know, slightly larger company, even 1,000 or 10,000 employees. You want an AI that understands you're in the technology space, right? That you're very, very global, that there are issues with that and that your values are, you know? Xyz. So you actually want an AI
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Dr. David Rock: for managers that like aligns to the values you're trying to create, the culture you're trying to create right. You just go straight to Co pilot or something. You you know your managers are getting the exact same answer. Every single manager in the world is getting on on like how to deal with conflict. Is that right? No right. You might be a much more humanistic company from the Netherlands, who, you know, really wants to appreciate human values. More needs to be tuned to that.
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Dr. David Rock: Right? So so there's the sort of context of the world of work generally the context of your industry, the context of your country.
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Dr. David Rock: Sorry company, those things into a degree country, right? If it's a Middle Eastern AI, it's going to need to be different to an Irish AI.
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Dr. David Rock: Sure, there's a joke there. I'm not gonna make it because I'll be really inappropriate accidentally. But the the definitely. There's a there's something to really tune to the culture of the company, right? And the needs of that company. And then a really really big one actually is, it actually needs to to focus on the knowing, doing gap.
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Dr. David Rock: So it should really build habits.
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Dr. David Rock: Right? Not just give information. Hey, go and try this right. It should actually close that knowing gap right? So we're imagining. And this will be in a version shortly at the end of sort of a short answer, Niles will say, Hey, would you like to dig into something there? Or would you like me to ask you some more questions to help. You have your own insights here.
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Dr. David Rock: and so Niles is is getting trained in brain based coaching. So that which is an incredibly powerful, efficient coaching approach right. That that will help people have, you know, come, come to their own insights as well, and that's one of the best ways of like getting people into action, you know, just telling them something and helping them have insight. So the knowing gap, I think, is the big piece. So those are the 4 things like actional direct, able to really dig in further coherent to the, you know, work to industry, to company
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Dr. David Rock: and really bridging the knowing, doing gap. So so things become habits. We think those are the 4 critical things for a management. AI to to really work.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah.
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Rachel Cardero: We're getting great questions and activity in the chat. Mariana asked about whether Niles can be customized to the values of an organization.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah.
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Rachel Cardero: Tired culture.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. We're we're looking to do that. And you know, we may even like upload, like all your Hr practices and tools and policies in there as well. So you've got one tool for like how to interact the right way as well as what you should be doing, you know in an emergency, or you know how to deal with the promotion and things. So the ideal thing is, you've got really both, you know, all in the one tool. So we definitely imagining something that will that will, you know, that will do all of the above.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah. And we have a question here about whether people might become over reliant on AI help or people get addicted to AI help and lose their creative thinking and their practical thinking habits. Will we just over rotate too much? And I think that that's it's tied to the knowing gap for me, you know, like there are so many tools. That we have at our disposal. I remember this thing I saw like an old
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Rachel Cardero: like a one of those said historical documents where teachers were complaining about kids writing on chalk and like, or you know, people reading the newspaper every day, or having print materials. I think there's there's always that fear. But some of the habits that you talked about earlier, like teaching people how to use it to become more creative. How to manage that divergent thinking, the convergent thinking how to use it
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Rachel Cardero: to enhance their insights. So this way, it's actually it's almost like a mental trainer, not a replacement.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah.
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Dr. David Rock: yeah, yeah. I mean that. Yes, people continue to have that augmenting fear. And it's true that there'll be some industries where there'll be some downsizing, like, you know, if you have a hundred 1,000 consultants.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah.
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Dr. David Rock: Doing accounting work. You might need 90,000 consultants, you know, in in 2 years time, because you can just process stuff. You know. It's true there might be some downsizing. But but on the whole, there's also gonna be a lot of
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Dr. David Rock: reskilling and organizing a lot of new new people to train. But I think at an individual level, it does make people, you know more, you know, effective, more creative.
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Dr. David Rock: You know, and even making work more interesting and more fun. And in a lot of ways he's doing less of that annoying sort of detailed, repetitive work. You're able to move to that that that higher level work? I actually asked Niles this exact question. I don't have the answer handy, but I actually asked Niles this question again. Amazing answer on it, and and sort of all the way down, exactly how you make sure that you, you know, develop real capacities with us. It's it's, you know it's it's an interesting question, but that. But that nothing doing gap, I mean, I think that's such a
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Dr. David Rock: an important piece of this, because it's, you know, like anyone can just say, you know, build an AI that's that draws on some. You know examples of things you could try. But how do you actually get leaders to really take action and be different. You know, if you're if you're, you know, if Niles is tuned to, you know, a more inclusive approach from maybe a Scandinavian company. Right?
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Dr. David Rock: How do you actually make that a habit? Not just when someone asks Niles right? You don't just want like people to do the right thing when they just ask Niles. You want Niles to actually read that this is an opportunity for really building a habit and kinda start that conversation even with that leader. Right? It's gonna get really interesting. Kinda how that how that works. So we we're imagining in future versions. And we'll I guess we'll come back to this. But we're imagining some really interesting things in future versions that are that are really proactive as well.
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Rachel Cardero: So tell tell us a little bit more. I think we should click into that a bit. You know we've been doing. We've been tackling that knowing, doing that for 26 years, you know. How are you really focusing on that? And maybe you could even show us through Niles like, that's maybe we see through what Niles.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah.
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Rachel Cardero: Does today.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, I'm not sure how much of a secret source I want to give away of exactly.
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Rachel Cardero: Okay. Yeah.
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Dr. David Rock: I will say the essence of it is you're trying to generate insight. Right? Like, like really using a coaching approach will will be a big piece of it. You're trying to really generate insight for people. You're also not giving them large lists of things. You're giving them like just the right amount of options. Right? You're making those options really doable. Actionable and then sort of have the way you ask the follow-on question. And then you're even weaving in like principles of accountability, like niles might ask you, hey? Do you want to share that with someone? So you, you know.
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Dr. David Rock: to help you remember, to do this right? So you're weaving in principles of accountability, you know, in there as well. So so we're really thinking about behavior change? Not just like, Hey, here's an answer, right? How do we really make the behavior, you know, make make the behavior change really really happen?
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Dr. David Rock: Maybe we should show people. I'll just show you a couple of of examples to sort of bring this alive. And folks. This is something fun. I'm gonna show you. I'm gonna share screen and just kind of show you the current interface for Niles. It's not yet an app we we're working towards that. It's currently just a web page that you can pull up on your phone or an ipad or laptop. You know. Keep the browser open and you know you can. You can have as many windows as you know as you like, open of it.
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Dr. David Rock: different kind of conversations you're having with it. But you know that's the kind of format I'll show you. It's not the prettiest thing in the world yet. We're sort of still building that, but it has it there, and I'll just show you a couple of examples and and think about questions. You might like to ask Niles, and we'll pick a fun one, and and ask Niles in real time. So just kind of. So you can get a sense of of what's possible.
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Dr. David Rock: okay, can you see? That is that is that coming up.
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Rachel Cardero: We can.
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Dr. David Rock: There we go. So I asked, now, this is just I'm not actually anxious about this right now. But I still, this is a question that people are often wondering. Right? I get asked a lot. You know. I'm anxious about one of my team, maybe being a flight risk. What can I do. Let's make this a little bigger.
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Dr. David Rock: So it says. Sort of, you know, a little bit of preamble, you know, based on a research. So firstly, and I'm not gonna read everything, but, you know, frequent forward looking conversations.
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Dr. David Rock: you know, shift from performance valuations to future focus discussions.
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Dr. David Rock: You know, you know constant dialogue, so high level. That's super important, right? Foster growth, mindset.
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Dr. David Rock: Right? So this. And and again, this is one of those things you might want to dig into like, hey? Tell me more about growth, mindset. And what is it you know? How do I really build it? And then, third one actually make sure you're not being biased accidentally right? Maybe you're missing like this person's skill. So that's those are sort of 3 really good high level principles. But then you're like,
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Dr. David Rock: actually. But what can I specifically do when I meet this person today? Right? Oh, okay, sure, if you're meeting today, here are 3 things. So firstly, ask explicitly for feedback. Right? So you ask them, ask for them for feedback on on how they feel about their role, the team, the organization right?
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Dr. David Rock: fantastic things. Exactly what I would have said they should do, discuss the career aspirations so really understand where they're trying to head, offer support and resources. Right?
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Dr. David Rock: Fantastic, great. So this person just canceled their meeting. Write an email. I can send them to see what's going on right? So and noels is just written, written a beautiful email here, checking in and rescheduling at catch up.
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Dr. David Rock: You know, generally value our one to one conversations as they provide us a great opportunity to connect, discuss your experiences, etc. Your insights are important to me. I'm keen to hear about your aspirations, and you know, would you be open to rescheduling
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Dr. David Rock: so just a really thoughtful note? Taking into account, you know, both mindset psychological safety. All this stuff? Actually, the person just replied with, I'm too busy right now. What should I do next? Right?
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Dr. David Rock: You know. Here's we go. Acknowledge their workload right offer flexible alternatives emphasize the importance and benefits without applying pressure. Right?
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Dr. David Rock: you know. Write me a short text message I could send along those lines here. It is right. Here's the actual text message, right? So so there you go. So there's an example like all the way through, of like helping you at every level be just as effective as you can. Right? Isn't that crazy? Let's show you another one. This is really
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Dr. David Rock: this is a really interesting one it my boss might be creating all this stress for me, right from wanting to report on everything all of a sudden. Why would this stress me out so much like what's going on here. So you're sort of struggling with something. So here we go. The sudden requirement. Could be based in autonomy. Right? So
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Dr. David Rock: drawing on, obviously the scarf model so that could be having increased workload and pressure
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Dr. David Rock: uncertainty
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Dr. David Rock: that comes in. You can tell them in New York City. Speaking of uncertainty you hear the sirens in the background.
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Dr. David Rock: It's, you know, linking to scarf again, scarf coming up. Lack of trust and then impact on status. So it's sort of broadly explaining this sort of starts broadly and then gives you a chance to kind of dig in which domain of scarf might be the biggest issue. Oh.
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Dr. David Rock: now says probably autonomy.
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Dr. David Rock: right? That and explains kind of why.
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Dr. David Rock: How this might work the stress response that happens. Oh, what could I do to balance out this autonomy issue?
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Dr. David Rock: Actually. And it gives you, you know, a couple of great answers there. So so this is, yeah, this is you know, it gives you a sense of kind of what's really possible. Let's let's try some questions from the group. What do we have coming in.
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Rachel Cardero: We have one and I. I got a good answer. I can flip to my screen if you want, but I gotta hey, Niles.
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Rachel Cardero: How can I stop my direct report from mansplaining?
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Rachel Cardero: Thank you, Diane.
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Dr. David Rock: Fails because we we actually only have him fail, like probably one in, you know, 30 or 40 answers. He doesn't have something really helpful, so we'll see.
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Dr. David Rock: How can I see one of my team members mansplaining.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, I can. I can share my screen if you want cause. I pop. I popped it in.
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Dr. David Rock: That's why I got it.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, how can I stop one of my team members for a man explaining.
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Dr. David Rock: One of my team members. Man's like, yes, if it understands, and there's a couple of other ones coming in. So just while these are coming up. Well, we might put up the polls if anyone wants to kind of jump off quickly. Maybe my team can put the poll up. It takes about 15 s for these to get answered so my team could put the poll up. It'll let us know sort of how to follow up with you. In different ways, like as an individual, you can. do things. But as an organization, are you interested in bringing Niles in or about as or as an individual accessing Niles
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Dr. David Rock: interested in lead individually or corporate. So there's a lot of options there. Sorry it's a bit of load, cognitive load. But just put that poll up there.
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Dr. David Rock: Okay, here we go.
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Dr. David Rock: Here we go. Here's Niall's response. There.
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Dr. David Rock: addressing man. Say so. Observe and document specific instances, instead of making general accusations, provide feedback privately. That's really important. So that you're not creating a a status threat, right? Focus on what to build on, where to refocus. So that's really important. That's our feedback model. So what to build on, where to refocus.
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Dr. David Rock: encourage self awareness, set clear expectations for communication, offer support, and then follow up. Maybe it's say, you know, if I had to do just one thing.
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Dr. David Rock: you know, in my next meeting.
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Dr. David Rock: What should I do? And it understands the context.
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Dr. David Rock: See what Niall says about that
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Dr. David Rock: and we'll just
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Dr. David Rock: yeah. And we've got some some fun disclaimers there also. Now, this is just learning. It's like we all are.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, ask.
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Dr. David Rock: Mouse has a growth mindset. Do you have another question while we're working on that?
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, there's a great question. How do I prepare an individual contributor to become a leader?
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Dr. David Rock: Hmm! It's a good question. How do I prepare
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Dr. David Rock: an individual
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Dr. David Rock: contributor? You'll see my bad typing
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Dr. David Rock: to become a leader.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah. And we did get a question as you put that in there, we did get a qua question about whether Niles is available in multiple languages. Maria, Maria, we're still testing that.
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Rachel Cardero: So we know that. If we ask Miles a question in Spanish, it re replies in Spanish, but we're still testing the moderator.
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Dr. David Rock: That's nice.
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Dr. David Rock: Just crazy. It's just crazy. So yeah, I can see that the the Niles answer the previous one was, Do a what to build on, where to refocus. And then, you know, it's just it described kind of how to do that. So yeah, we'll do this last one. And then I I know there's some closing comments about kind of the future of Niles, or what we're thinking about and how to get involved. But just answer this last question, really, really fun questions. And here's the craziest thing is that you can use Niles for basically any of your work as well.
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Dr. David Rock: because it's built on, you know, Openai. So it has. If if there's not an Nli answer, there's actually an answer from the wider world like I recently said, I'm going to Singapore. Can you tell me a good place to have lunch? That's quiet and will will help us have big thoughts.
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Dr. David Rock: and it actually gave, which obviously, we haven't trained it in right. And it it actually gave me a really fantastic restaurant in the Botanical Gardens to meet with someone so you can use it, for you know anything, not just management and leadership tasks which makes it a fantastic tool and hot off the press. We're we're chat. We're gonna be pricing it at lower than chat. Gbt, these other options. So you basically can get a very, very workplace tuned.
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Dr. David Rock: You know, Chat dB, in a sense, but cheaper than the normal one that's actually got all our stuff.
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Dr. David Rock: And that's what we're seeing with all our employees is, they're using it constantly for all these difficult human stuff, but also for everything.
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Dr. David Rock: So you know, it's fundamentally just a more human AI
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Dr. David Rock: Not just for workplace things, but overall. A more human AI, which we're really excited about is kind of a a crazy idea. Here we go. Individual contributors via leader assess readiness aspirations, personalized development plan provide leadership opportunities, encourage networking.
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Dr. David Rock: foster growth, mindset model, is it so? This is good. But then you sort of want to get really specific, right? You want to be able to say, All right. What can I do today? Give me 3 things I should do today.
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Rachel Cardero: Hmm.
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Dr. David Rock: And thanks, everyone that's good. A good point. I didn't ask it for somewhere that was nice and cool as well. Hilarious, but anyway, that's so. That's what Niles can do today. So I think the polls still up, just we'll get lots of answers from you. I think we got 35 folks, answered the poll. So far.
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Dr. David Rock: definitely get an answer
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Dr. David Rock: in the in the poll. If you're interested in sort of any follow up, so we know how to support you. But I think we had a couple more questions, Rachel, before we let folks get back to it.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah. Well, just first big. Thank you to you, David, for sharing everything that you shared. I'd like we wanna continue talking about this. We're gonna do more research on this like this is just the beginning for us.
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Rachel Cardero: A couple of announcements for those that are listening. So the poll will help you sign up and get a copy of our AI white paper. In addition to getting the AI white paper. If you're interested in learning more about Niles, either for your organization or for yourself. Please let us know also, if you're a senior executive and you wanna connect at a deeper level with the Neuro Leadership Institute. We have the ability for you all to sign up for our insider exchanges.
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Dr. David Rock: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
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Rachel Cardero: Are smaller, more intimate conversations where we're talking about the research showing you our latest and greatest, and they're very exclusive roundtables.
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Dr. David Rock: Have one next week on AI and Nyle, so we'll be like talking to maybe 20 or 30, you know, senior talent executives, just you know, folks inside companies, you know about this and and what it looks like and how to use it. All this stuff. So that's that's a session actually, next week. So folks, if you put insiders in the chat also, and just your company name and insiders, you can get an in, you know, potential invitation to that community. It's a it's a really cool community.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah, yeah, if space is available, we'll definitely try and send you all an invitation in addition to that. If you all are interested in hosting an Nli event. We wanna partner with you as a a
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Rachel Cardero: part of our community and we also have wonderful podcast episodes. David, before we close, I wonder if I could ask you one final question to leave us with insights and leave us with great energy. But tell us, as people are putting things in the chat. You know. What? Tell us about the future of Niles. What's what's in store for Niles?
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Dr. David Rock: You know. I I remember meeting this executive years ago. I can't remember his name. He's he was a chairman at Yahoo for a while. He he is really passionate about this idea of like software that could eat bad management like that, was his phrase. Like in software, eat badge, bad management or technology, right?
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Dr. David Rock: And and I've always been thinking about that like in real time, you know we can. We can improve people's grammar and spelling. But can we improve the way that that we manage and even just interact with each other? Right? There's so many, you know, just in my everyday life, so many unnecessary conflict, so many unnecessary misunderstanding, so much like unnecessary sort of friction in human interactions, you know. You know, there's this quote from Theodore Zeldin, a philosopher at Oxford, one of my
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Dr. David Rock: favorite thinkers, he, you know. When will we make the same breakthroughs in the way we relate to each other as we've made in technology, right? And I think that something like Niles has the the potential to really create that huge breakthrough in the way relate to each other. But it's gonna have to get smarter and smarter and smarter. So we're imagining, you know. Obviously, there's an app coming. But we're also imagining something that's just woven into all your systems, and, you know, sees a meeting coming out with a new employee and says, Hey.
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Dr. David Rock: this person scarf profile from what we can see on the web is high, and you know certainty you're high in autonomy. You'll probably accidentally do it this way. Why don't you try it this way, like like ahead of time, not just learning in the flow of work, but ahead of time, actually noticing trends and patterns, and giving you these what we call neuro intelligent nudges.
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Dr. David Rock: So we're working on that kind of next neuro intelligent nudges. And then maybe you can switch it on and have it. Listen to certain meetings, and then give you feedback after about how to be even more effective as a communicator. And you know in your human stuff.
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Dr. David Rock: right? So you know, right now we're training it in. You know, the thousands of different elements of like, you know, what is capacity? What is what is insight. How do you have more insight? How do you have more capacity? So we're training it in the foundations of just being more effective from a brain perspective. But I I think it can become this incredible application.
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Dr. David Rock: You know, going forward, you know, I met with, you know, a key person at Microsoft this week, you know. We're long term partners with them. They use, you know, we're kind of the operating system for a big piece of leadership there. You know he was like, you know, we we can only see a little bit ahead, you know, for the first time ever we can only see a little bit ahead, so none of us really know where it's going. But we're excited about just as we have been for 26 years, you know, helping smart people be smarter and doing that
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Dr. David Rock: through the lens of how the brain works. And and you know, the technology sort of finally caught up for us to be able to do something meaningful with 26 years of research. We've always been wondering, what will we do with all this stuff.
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Dr. David Rock: So it's really awesome that we're finally able to find a way to do something with all this kind of hard work we've done, and hopefully. It can help, you know, tens or hundreds of millions of people be more effective. So, as you can see, we're excited. Rachel, thank you for your, you know, incredible conversation, and also for everything you do behind the scenes. I know you work incredibly hard to to make. You know big things happen there, so thanks so much everyone for for being here as well really appreciate it.
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Rachel Cardero: Yeah.
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Rachel Cardero: Well, that's official. We want to say farewell. Folks have a wonderful day. Thank you all. Thanks for joining.
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Dr. David Rock: Much.