This week, join Dr. Amy Edmondson (Novartis Professor of Leadership, Harvard Business School) and Dr. David Rock (CEO and Co-Founder, NLI) in the last of our 3-part series. They’ll lead the NLI community in an exploration of how psych safety has the power to boost accountability and engagement, thereby driving sustainable business results over time.
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Shelby Wilburn: Welcome back to another week of your brain at work. Live! I'm your host, Shelby Wilburn, for our regulars. We're happy to have you back. And for our newcomers, we're excited to have you here with us for the first time today in this episode, we're going to dive into accountability versus psychological safety as today's leaders are navigating, finding the right balance between focusing on performance and people in their organizations. Now, as I quickly share, some housekeeping notes drop in the chat or on the comments and social where you're joining in from today.
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Shelby Wilburn: we are recording today's session. So if you're interested in a replay, be on the lookout for an email later today. That email is also going to include a survey for feedback as well as a number of resources that are aligned to today's conversation. And we suggest putting your phone on. Do not disturb quitting out of your email and messaging apps. You can really get the most out of today's discussion. And it's also going to help with your audio and video quality. And we love interaction. So feel free to share your thoughts and comments in the chat throughout the show.
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Shelby Wilburn: Now, to get this hour underway, I'm going to introduce our speakers for today.
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Shelby Wilburn: Our special guest is the Novartis professor of leadership and management at the Harvard Business School. She's been recognized by the Biannual thinkers, 50 global ranking of management thinkers since 2,011 and was ranked number one multiple years. Most recently, in 2023,
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Shelby Wilburn: she studies teaming, psychological safety and organizational learning, and her articles have been published in numerous Academic and Management Outlets, including Administrative Science Quarterly Academy of Management Journal, Harvard Business Review, and California Management Review.
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Shelby Wilburn: Her most recent book, The Fearless Organization, Creating Psychological safety in the workplace for learning, innovation, and growth
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Shelby Wilburn: offers a practical guide for organization series about success in the modern economy, and has been translated into 15 languages. It was also selected for the Financial Times, and Schroeder's best business book of the Year Award.
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Shelby Wilburn: Please join me in welcoming Novartis, Professor of Leadership and management at the Harvard Business School, Dr. Amy Edmondson, Dr. Edmondson. It's great to have you back with us and thank you for joining us today. Thanks for having me, Shelby. It's great to be with you.
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Shelby Wilburn: Wonderful! And joining her is no stranger, an Aussie turn New Yorker, who coined the term neural leadership when he Co. Founded and Li over 2 decades ago, with a professional doctorate for successful books under his name, and a multitude of bylines ranging from the Harvard business review to the New York Times, and many more. A warm welcome to the Co. Founder and CEO of the Neural Leadership Institute, Dr. David Rock. Great to have you back, David, and I'm passing it over to you.
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Dr. David Rock: Thank you, Shelby. Thank you very much. Actually was just in Australia where I'm from originally. And they all say I have an accent now, probably being down there in summer, Amy, it's so great to to chat with you again, and I'm actually really excited to dig into this conversation, because I think there's a lot of insights for all of us myself included in, you know, in this topic. And we actually had a record.
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Dr. David Rock: a number of registrations for this. So clearly, it's on people's minds. Ii and I guess there's this sort of thing in the Zeitgeist, where it's, you know, companies almost had to be really kind and thoughtful, and and much more considerate of people and their needs right than ever, you know, through the pandemic and even sort of since there was this
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Dr. David Rock: feeling like, you know, we had to care. We had to have more empathy. And I think there's a lot of Ceos at at this point, and just leaders generally saying, Oh, you know enough of that. It's it's time we get back to business. Right? Let's let's focus on accountability. And I think in some ways kind of psychological safety is being bucketed as
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Dr. David Rock: kind of you know, in the kindness, category and and not the like. Actually, let's really, you know, get down to to to work category and it, which I think is, is kind of a bad rap and an incorrect rap in in in a way. But a any comments on that. I sort of using that in the guys.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: II completely agree that that has been a sort of a misconception misunderstanding that that
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: worry or that trend is
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: taking shape in terms of. Okay, enough of the you know enough of the support. Enough of the kindness. Now let's get back to business. I think it's a it's a misnomer in so many ways, and not the least of which is a sort of misunderstanding of what psychological safety really means, and I understand that the term itself
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: contributes to some of the confusion. But let me just define it quickly. I'll define psychological safety as I always have is a belief that the consequences of speaking up with, and I always had parenthetically. But I don't think it needs this with work, relevant content. Ideas, questions, concerns, and even mistakes
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: will not be punitive. The consequences won't be punitive. So what that really means is, I can actually do my job without without fear of humiliation or shame. It does not mean freedom to not do my job. It it it means that, in fact, the very behaviors
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: I need to engage in to do my job well. especially as a team member with others
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: are feel possible that they feel acceptable.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, interesting. So so let's let's make this tangible like, Give, give me a story. It could be from your life, or something you've seen where, like
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: psychological safety is in a team, and maybe where it isn't. So we just we can sort of compare and contrast and get the the picture in our mind.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: Well, let me start. I think it's easier to start with where it isn't, and I'll give you 2
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: 2 operating room teams and and in and in the first one this is one that I studied one of 16 cardiac surgery teams. I studied a few years back that we're all they were. They were willing to be studied because they were doing something new. They were all trying to implement something called minimally invasive cardiac surgery, where, instead of of the traditional procedure of opening up the sternum.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: they were doing the the procedure, the the correct, the repair through a small incision in in the patient's chest. And
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: to do that meant that without the, you know, without the visual access to the the surgeon. Normally has the surgeons had to rely on other team members, nurses.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: an anesthesiologist, and and and various other roles to speak up and speak up quickly, often to say, Stop, stop! Stop! Stop! What you're doing! Because the internal clamp that can only be seen through fluoroscopy images has moved its location. Now in one in one team that I studied, I talked to one of the nurses and she said.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: I just I just can't do it right. It just it would. It would feel impossible. I might whisper it to the fellow, which sort of a lower lower level physician and training versus the, you know, say, like to say directly to the surgeon, Stop.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: the clamp has shifted, is it? Would? It just feels impossible. Now, I would promise you. I studied many other teams in the same exact study, in the same exact context where they said, of course, you know, of course, I'd speak up, and it's easy, because it's expected. The procedure needs us to do that, or you can't have a good procedure. And and just to not have just 2 identical
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: contrast. II had the chance to learn about an operating room team recently, where an anesthesiologist told me a story of where where a nurse corrected him and pointed out his error, and he thanked her for pointing out the error. That's a psychologically safe team. That's a team where that patient was getting better care.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, interesting. You know, as I as I'm picturing that I'm imagining a you know, an operating room. And if you've got a team of, say, 6 people around the surgeon. They actually have different needs for psychological safety. In a way, right? So so psychological safety is not like the surgeon does one thing, and then everyone feels safe. You know they walk in and smile, and everyone magically feels like they can speak up right. How handsome they are. It's like it's it's it's like
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Dr. David Rock: one person needs a huge amount of encouragement to just like, you know. Make sure that they, you know, speak up and someone else. It might just be natural and second nature. And you almost gotta tell them to talk less. We we've been thinking about like, maybe there's sort of a a sweet spot
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: of psychological safety. People aren't like second guessing everything, but they're also not quiet. There's sort of you thought about that at all. Well, yes, I have, but I don't see it as a sweet spot for psychological safety, because I actually don't think fear which is the opposite of psychological safety is ever a great motivator, at least fear of each other. I fear the deadline fear of losing the patient. All of that is, that could be a good motivator. But if I'm afraid of you, David.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: then I'm doing too much cognitive work to figure out what's acceptable to say what isn't so when people are sort of
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: are in the habit of sharing too much.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: this is another. This isn't a psychological safety problem. This is a discipline problem. This is a feedback problem, or like they need and deserve our help
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: to learn what's helpful to their colleagues, and what is less helpful, because I think all of us want to be effective. So it's not about, let's make it just safe enough that we only get the right amount of information. It's more like, let's make it safe.
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Dr. David Rock: And then let's make sure you get feedback to know how effective you're being. Yeah, no, it's interesting. We had a we had a someone on the show a few months back. Who I don't think you've met yet. A fascinating gentleman? And he he's developed a black box recorder like to have an airplanes but for operating rooms, literally. And they're collecting a million data points a day and analyzing with AR and every every site they've put this in. They have that 20 sites. So far, every site is saving quite a few lives a year
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Dr. David Rock: as well as all these other cost savings, these other things, and and and we maybe my team can put the link to the webinar with him in the chat. So folks who listen. It was amazing, Dr. Teodoro, grandchild. He's been doing it for 20 years, and it's finally taking off because AI is kind of caught up. But the the cliff note of it. And and it's in this, podcast. The the cliff note is that it's sort of easy to
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Dr. David Rock: to collect the data. Easy ish, now to collect the data. It's a lot harder to find the insights. But the really hard thing was to create change in practices, of course, and that's where the sort of you know where the traffic stopped. But but then I asked him, what are the big insights in that middle step.
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Dr. David Rock: What? What are the most important insights you've got from the data? Right? Look at. You've looked at all the data, he said. Well, you know, accidents happen.
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Dr. David Rock: you know. Firstly, when people are distracted. So someone comes in with a birthday cake, right? But but secondly, the second, like a really big category, and I think this was the biggest category is actually just. People are too quiet.
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Dr. David Rock: He said. The the most dangerous operating room is a quiet operating room. And and and he's got that from the data we're gonna working with him to kind of it's it's really it's it's it's really out there. So we were thinking, oh, is there much speaking, is there not, you know, like, where is that sort of you know? W. One of the things that we found into our surprise with the cardiac surgery study
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: was because we were looking at. We expected high quality after action reviews to be a differentiator across teams.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: and it just didn't show up as a variable that that mattered to performance. But what did we call it? We realized it wasn't after action. It was sort of in action the teams that were sort of talking. Okay. Now I'm doing this, and I'm thinking that and what they were. You know, they were thinking aloud with each other, so that everybody could stay fully engaged and on track.
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Dr. David Rock: and the ones that you know kind of did this thinking in action were, in fact, more effective. Yeah, no. We've we've we've studied this whole thing like from from a couple of different angles over the years we studied like the way that diverse and inclusive teams actually outperform and have this higher IQ. And it turns out there's a there's an actual mechanism called cognitive elaboration that's occurring, which is, is literally people are explaining themselves more richly right
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Dr. David Rock: and challenging each other more. But also like they're literally working harder to to communicate and communicating more fully, more accurately, but also challenging each other more fully, more accurately. So everyone's going like a couple of clicks in, as opposed to being surface in a more diverse, inclusive team. And and that's where you get the results. And that's sort of how I'm I'm picturing this as well. Yes, and it reminds me of the ladder of inference instead of just sort of well.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: I think this and I think that it's it's wait. Wait, let's elaborate. Let me let me walk you through my thinking. Let me tell you some of the evidence or examples I'm thinking of that. Lead me to this conclusion. And then I'm I'm hoping and asking you to do the same. Yeah, yeah, well, let's yeah. Let's dig in a little more to psych safety. So
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Dr. David Rock: you know, you've been studying this for a while. I think. You know, we've got a definition. Now it's it's people feeling like there. There aren't consequences to, you know, to speaking up that it's that's important that they do. So you know, you've been working for a while, you know, as we've been working on this with you for the last year or so to to take this out to, you know. Large audiences. You know, one of the things the insights we've had is that
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Dr. David Rock: it seems to be a very high order. Skill like it's not. It's not like generally being more thoughtful. It's not like inclusion, which is kind of more active inclusion, so active. It's like even further than that. You know. Can you describe the kind of 3 sets of habits that you came to. You know, and it's, you know, might be worth just my
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: adding to the prior definition that because here II think this tie so nicely into your original question.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: Psychological safety does not refer to a state of comfort, you know, maybe a state of engagement, but it's
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: because I think learning and leaning in are inherently uncomfortable. And so it's it's really about the it's you're we're trying to create the state where people know that they're gonna be uncomfortable sometimes, but in service of the goal, right in service of of the purpose. So so how do you get that right? How do you create that kind of expectation and engagement?
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: And I had come up with, and then with with you and your team, we had sort of elaborated on some of this from a neuroscience perspective. But the 3
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: behavioral categories are setting the stage inviting participation, you know, actively and responding thoughtfully and setting the stage is about you know, getting people on the same page about what it is we're trying to do here, you know, provide high quality care to this patient, or, you know, design a exciting new product, whatever it is, getting getting aligned on the same page around the nature of the goal. And.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: by the way, why, it's challenging and why it needs us and
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: setting the stage so that people expect failure. They expect setbacks, you know. They expect everything is not gonna just go perfectly like a a carpet rolling out with with the force of inertia. Right? There's gonna be things that go well and things that don't go well and and and set that out in advance. Encourage debate. But more than just saying, Gee, I wanna hear from you. You've gotta
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: you've got to invite it in actively. Do what you're doing right now, which is asking questions. And when you ask questions and and you know, model a genuine interest in those questions. And then, of course, when you respond in a thoughtful way to whatever it is that that people bring forward, it doesn't mean you have to agree with everything. God? No, it doesn't mean you have to like everything it means. You have to
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: listen and respond, and if the response is a kind of a gentle redirect, or even a forceful redirect. That's okay. That's still a productive response.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, I know we had a lot of fun working with you last year with our whole research team. Looking at at like, what are the the very actionable habits that live underneath these like, if you're gonna focus on 3 things. Inside stage, what would matter? Most right? And and same with invite participation, respond thoughtfully. And we developed
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Dr. David Rock: a a framework, a 3 by 3, for how to, you know, build this, and that's now gone out to, you know a good number of people, and starting to to really scale. But the. The. So we've got a definition of psych safety. Right? We know it's it's a it's a it's a pretty advanced skill like I would say, it is creating the conditions for
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Dr. David Rock: safe arguing, you know, like then they still have friends at the end of the day. It's something like that, right? But let's change gears. What about accountability? So so how do you define accountability from your perspective? And I'll I'll share mine as well, how do you define it?
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: Great? Well, you know I define it as
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: psychological ownership, like a a genuine internal commitment to doing everything you can to achieve the goal, or to do a good job, you know, to to uphold standards of excellence.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: And it's I think it's it can include a a confidence that others also care right? So that there's a a shared sense of accountability. And and so, and because of that desire not to let them go so short way to say it. It is an internal
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: commitment and ownership to doing what I need to do to contribute.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, yeah, interesting. You know I think it. I think it has some elements like one. Is you really care right? And but out of out of care comes attention. Right? So sometimes II I'll I'll get on an airplane and
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Dr. David Rock: I'll like I'll have a lot of work to do, and I'll I'll open my laptop up straight away, and I'll be, you know, working away before we take off to get some things out, and and then they'll they'll bring like the towel around. So, you know, and and I'll I'll really watch if the person's actually conscious.
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Dr. David Rock: Th, the you know, the, the, the the attendant, the flight attendant, if they're really conscious, because they might literally half the time they just give me a soaking wet towel. It just destroys my computer and wrecks my mouth right and like. Then, like you can tell like they caring they like. Oh, they're checking, you know, if you get on like Singapore Airlines or Emirates, or something. They're like testing it, you know, like making sure it's not too wet, you know. And then they're like, Okay, let's give it. But sometimes we get into flight. And I just get this, you know, incredibly hot, like scolding, hot, soaking, wet
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: ownership of the task. Right is this again? This is a totally mundane routine task or no. This is actually a moment, right? A moment of of serving the passenger who's gonna have a long flight ahead, or what? Whatever it is right, it is. It's a completely different internal state that then manifests itself in a very different way.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, so I think I think an element of is is like really caring you can call that responsibility. You can call that you know all sorts of things, you know. So I really like your definition of sort of that psychological ownership. But and I think what it looks like is someone is really caring. And as a result of that they're really paying attention.
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Dr. David Rock: like, in the like, almost a mindful way, they're like, their their attention is on the task right or the project over time. They're giving it. Yeah, II think another element of this and we've been thinking about this is is the the amount of mentalizing that someone does
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Dr. David Rock: about the the activity. Right? So this experience like you know you, you you give someone a project and
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Dr. David Rock: and and and you don't think through kind of all the ways that could go wrong, or all the things that could happen. And of course, you know something goes wrong. Right? Or other times you'll give some of the projects, and you'll be like. Hmm! What
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Dr. David Rock: III wonder where things you know. I wonder how this could go wrong like you giving someone a simple task, and it's like, you know. Get, get, get me back. Get this back my 50'clock Friday, you're like, Oh, hang on! We're in different times. 50'clock Friday. Where? And hang on. How do I need it? It's it's mindful it's it's sort of mentalizing, and it's kind of
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Dr. David Rock: it's mentalizing on a couple of axes. One is over time like what could go wrong over time? What could go wrong over space? What could go wrong as this person tries to do this. And so you're you're actually thinking about as the person giving a task. You're actually thinking about the increasing the chances that this person can actually get this right
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Dr. David Rock: and that the task is actually complete. So you so you care about almost all the obstacles that could happen. And you help that person plan ahead. So I just think of it as as kind of going several clicks into imagining the task happening, which is a mentalizing thing. So you're picturing the task happening.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: And you're sort of planning ahead for obstacles and kind of imagining what could go wrong. And and and that's a lot. There's a lot of that in accountability. What's what's your reaction to that? Yes, I mean, it is. I love this, and it's it's a kind of systems, thinking because you're not. But I think we are. We are spontaneously in the here and now and in our own heads and our own self. You know what I need, what I want, what I'm interested in.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: and to just pause long enough to think through. Okay, you, what's it like from your perspective. And then also, later, what what's likely to happen next? Let's think a few steps ahead. That is a kind of systems thinking, that.
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Dr. David Rock: you know, I think leads to better interactions and ultimately to to better quality work. Right? Right? Yeah, no, it's it's interesting. And then there's an element of accountability. I think that kind of gets to growth mindset as well. There's an element of accountability which is that, like
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Dr. David Rock: you know, we do make mistakes, recognizing that that mistakes do happen right, and and taking ownership for those and working out what you can learn.
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Dr. David Rock: And and so there's that this element of like being willing to constantly improve. And you're not trying to prove that you're smart. So you've got this kind of situational humility, which is, which is, you know, right back to psych safety. In a way, it's one of the habits and psych safety. But to be accountable, you've got to be continuously learning in a way, and I think
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Dr. David Rock: growth, mindset and psych safety in some ways are similar. But even growth, mindset and accountability have these really interesting connections. Because
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Dr. David Rock: this may be, you know, there's there's almost 2 types of accountability, this punitive accountability where you sort of everything's about are gonna be punished.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: or there's growth, oriented accountability where you, you know, you have an opportunity to grow and learn. But that's that's how we're seeing it. What do? What are your thoughts. One of the things I mean. The word accountability in many organizational context is a kind of a a bad word, and it's it's a it's a -oh, it's a it's a it's a word about punishment. When people say, Oh, you gotta be held accountable with their with their meaning. Often is you, there will be negative consequences. And
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: I think that's a shame, because we're operating in a volatile, uncertain, complex world, and in such a world, or in such markets or in such organizations. It is a given that things will go wrong, right? Some things will go wrong, there will be setbacks, there will be failures, and so when people have that notion of accountability, accountability as punishment, then
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: their their their natural and even smart strategy, is to hide is to hide the truth because the truth doesn't set you free. The truth ends up Le, you know, leaving giving you harm. And so
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: that notion of accountability absolutely needs to be reframed and reworked and re-communicated, so that people understand that accountability is this kind of empowering sense of ownership, that that that it it is giving. It's restoring the the dignity to the individuals to to want to
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: own their part sometimes have to be. They ought to be based on, on.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: you know, process and strategy, you know. How did you think about that? How did you execute on that? Not just on results? Because in an uncertain world there will be times where you did a magnificent job. You worked really hard. It was a good strategy, and it failed, because.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: you know, because of as a reality, and if those kinds of failures which I call intelligent failures more often than not are punished, all you really will accomplish is a lack of risk taking and a lack of innovation. And that doesn't serve any organization. It's interesting. So
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Dr. David Rock: II see 2 types of companies, broadly speaking, that kind of, you know, call us one is is a company that says, Look, we've been really, really kind of driving, driving, driving, driving a strategy. And you know. Maybe they're in like, you know, the energy business. And they've had the same, you know, business for 100 years, literally, you know, distributing power. And like. Now, like, you know, Tesla's come along changing everything. We actually need to get everyone to innovate. So we need everyone to be more taking more responsibility. We need people to be sort of.
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Dr. David Rock: you know, more creative. We want to be kinder to everyone to facilitate that less community of yours. So that's one thing, right? So there's sort of like they're trying to be. Kinda and there's another kind of organization where they're like, look, this is like a family. There's no accountability. Right? Everyone's just, you know, nice to each other. There's no. And and so sometimes they'll be like, you know what they mean by accountability is we? You know, we people need to be fired if they're not achieving there
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Dr. David Rock: targets within 3 months or 6 at the most. Not never, or, you know, 3 years, and I think that's a kind of different kind of accountability in a way, almost needs a different word. But II think that's a lot of what certainly leaders say when they talk about accountability. They're like there has to be consequences.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: Any consequences is a better is a better way. Any thoughts on that. Well, there should be. There are. There's always consequences in in in life whether they're delayed or or, you know, immediate
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: the the the the goal is to have the consequences
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: be such that you get the behaviors you want, not the behaviors you don't want right? So there's so many perverse effects, where you know the consequences, say, of of acknowledging a shortcoming. I'm not meeting. The targets will be will end up punitive when, in fact, it was through no fault of your own, and
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: and what that will lead to is sandbagging right? That will lead to just setting the targets lower next time when you actually want people to be stretching. So you you really have to be extraordinarily thoughtful about
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Dr. David Rock: the likely outcomes of the things you things you reward and the things that you punch right? Right? Yes, he was working with a company recently, like
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Dr. David Rock: they, you know, they had this challenge. They they actually had done an incredible job of innovating across the pandemic. They'd completely changed their business model. They're doing something that never been done before. They'll be massively Po punished by the market, because, like the you know, they lost a huge client. It was no fault of their own. It was like a government regulator came in and messed up their whole market. And like, they're really, really struggling and right when they need to innovate, they just feel like they're being punished the whole time like the markets, like
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Dr. David Rock: trying to make them accountable for failing what they they're actually not failing. You know, the stock isn't doing great, but they're actually, really, really succeeding on another level. So it's really complicated, this whole issue of sort of consequences and share price and and all this. But let's let's put that type of accountability aside. Let's think about like.
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Dr. David Rock: you know, growth oriented accountability in in a team. Let's sort of bring it to the the team level in growth oriented accountability in a team like, you know, do you think it's possible for a team to kinda have like psychological safety, but not have this accountability like. Do you think it's possible to do that? Talk to talk to me about that?
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: Yes, I mean. So II think of I think I mean they may not be perfectly orthogonal, but I do think of psychological safety and accountability as 2 dimensions right where both matter. You want people to have that sense of ownership and commitment genuine commitment to to doing good job to to using good strategies. And you want people to feel that they have permission for candor.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: If both are low. I call that the apathy zone. But this is sort of where you know not much going on around here. You quit and stay right.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: And sure, if you have just that sense of yeah, I can say what I'm thinking. My my colleagues and my manager don't don't you know. Don't humiliate me in any way, shape or form. But I'm not terribly motivated. I'm not terribly bought in or accountable. I call that the Comfort Zone, and we know what that looks like, and and I'm not saying that certain parts of your life shouldn't be the comfort zone. But most of the time work is work, and you know it's it's gonna be better. It's not gonna be the optimal place for your team to be.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: and and sure, if you had just, you know, a really sense of high commitment, you know, internal or external, to doing a great job. But you feel afraid like that, nurse in that operating room, afraid to point out. When you you see something, you know, factually see something that could alter the health of the patient and you somehow, you just can't
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: speak it, because last time you spoke up and you were maybe wrong about something. You got your head bit off right? So that is called the Anxiety Zone, and that is a place where where mistakes happen. You know where deadlines are missed. It's it's a kind of sometimes it could look like things are going well. But you're not hearing the full story. So things aren't going well. That's not a that's not a winning strategy. So what I would I call the
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: upper right, where both are high. I call it the learning zone, but honestly, it's also the high performance. So I mean, you need to have both. You need to have permission, not afraid of you or your colleagues. Permission for candor and a genuine commitment, an internal commitment and ownership for for doing what you can.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, it's it's interesting. It tie, you know, this whole issue. You can see a lot of questions and comments in the chat. It's whole issue, you know. It's very. It's very kind of activating in a way, and it also ties to many other domains. It reminds me of II went to give a keynote few years ago at some Jude, the cancer research hospital for kids.
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Dr. David Rock: And they have this really unusual business model for hospital, where they they at the time. It's probably changed now, but at the time they had a thousand call center workers in a room.
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Dr. David Rock: Literally a thousand in a giant room like calling for for for dollars, right? Dialing for dollars, and and in various marketing campaigns to get those numbers and get people to call in and blah blah blah, but that we're raising like a hundred 1 million dollars a year. To to cure cancer and to help. You know, kids with cancer and
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Dr. David Rock: and and they're actually bit of an aside. But they're actually raising these huge sums of monies to do research as well as just run the hospital and actually doing this amazing research and sort of the the bigger the bigger the research project the more they raise they found. It was like I went in, and I spent about half a day walking around looking at the stations, talking to the nurses, the nurse managers, and just kind of getting a sense of the place, and it blew me away like the the culture there.
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Dr. David Rock: Was just amazing cause that what was happening was no parents paid for anything right in the business model. They raised all the money, and basically, you know, the kids was sick and the kids got treatment. But every single employee I ran into there was was so accountable on so many levels. They, I mean, you could explain a different ways. I was extremely engaged. They're extremely thoughtful.
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Dr. David Rock: They're paying incredible attention. But there was this real sense of ownership, and I don't know what it was in the dynamic. That sort of made that happen. But II think it was the fact that I mean. Obviously, it's kids. It's cancer. It's it's, you know, but also just the the sort of the way the business was structured. They didn't need to make money from their patients right? The the whole dynamic was about
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Dr. David Rock: kind of serving the patient, and they took sort of the financial equation out in a way, maybe as part of that. But I think there's the the quality of engagement and accountability I saw in those teams was really something else compared to.
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Dr. David Rock: you know hospital experience in New York where you just you just feel like you need like a vacation. After going in there for a couple of hours to visit someone? It's it's really, really different. So yeah, it's it's an interesting one. What are your thoughts? Well, you know, I just I I'm not looking at the chat, but one of them just popped along the ho on the horizon here, so III couldn't help seeing it from from William
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: Brown, it says, quote, if you have to hold with capital hold people accountable. You've already lost
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: and and I don't know actually who who that is, but but II think that's exactly right. It's it's sort of if this, if you.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: if you, the job, is to get people to hold themselves accountable commit. You know it's it's got to be.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: because, fundamentally, I think one of the the biggest error managers can make is not realize that your employees get to make their own decisions about what they do right when and if if it if it depend, if their decisions depend on you watching 24 7, you know, that's just not gonna work right? So your job is to create the conditions where they make the right choices, including the choices, to exert effort and and hold themselves accountable
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: right? Right? Right? There's so much, so much coming up for me. Stuff, I think that's that's like a definition, almost a growth, oriented accountability, right? People leaning. And and you do it, not because you're some kind of saint like figure, but you do it because of your own ego, your own ambition, your own, your own desire to help and impress your colleagues right? So it's but it's
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Dr. David Rock: but I'll do it. I don't need a boss telling me to do it. Yeah, it's gotta be you. I remember what happened at the start of the pandemic. There was this massive bump in keystroke software being sold. So so companies everywhere, I think we got to like 25% of companies suddenly had keystroke software that you could literally see how much people were typing, how much their mouse was moving stuff, and and what it resulted in was a massive, almost equally big bump in the sale of mouse jigglers
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Dr. David Rock: that like the had a heyday, because people would buy those perfect illustration of perverse effects. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's not accountability, right? Accountability, not like. And there's actually a big story. I think the New Yorker, a few years ago about this about this whole trend, and how it's having these perverse effects. And it wasn't actually getting the results that that they wanted. So that's how come. And it's even worse than that, right because it's
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: it. Ultimately, you know, we can blame the employees for for doing this, you know cheating thing right with the with the jiggler. But the managers have essentially created the conditions whereby that's what's gonna happen. Because they've created an absurd
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Dr. David Rock: yeah, it's interesting. You know, there's a like one of the qualities I think that's necessary at an organizational level. There's there's a lot of systems work to do that, you know, to to get to this place like like the way you set goals. But just, you know, are you? Do you have a surveillance mindset or an outcomes mindset right in the in the organization like the, you know, the the sort of keystroke software like you are you controlling and trying to tracking? And you don't trust people. Or so you know, some of those
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Dr. David Rock: philosophical things will kind of weave into your systems, and people will will sort of push back. But let let me just take a slightly different direction on this for a minute.
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Dr. David Rock: II think. And and I've been thinking this for months now. And it's it's really becoming clear and clear that that it's really not just accountability and site safety. II think growth mindset is really in there together. And what we're seeing today for if a company wants to like, you know?
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Dr. David Rock: like cut costs as a way to grow. And they they massively focus on, you know, efficiency and cost cutting, and you know, people following the rules and downsizing and all that, then you know growth, mindset, psychic safety and accountability are probably not the 3 biggest priorities. But if a company is trying to adapt really fast, trying to grow trying to innovate right? Trying to like experiment with new markets, you know, weaving in AI, exploring new ways of working right and certainly kind of cost.
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Dr. David Rock: Then growth, mindset, psychic and accountability are probably the 3 pillars that people really need today. And and and we we think that it's sort of that, the connection between the 3 of them that's really important. So we've we've started weaving those 3 into our solutions as kind of the sort of the 3 pillars that leaders need to to, you know, really build and and accountability
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Dr. David Rock: has to be defined correctly that it's not punitive. The accountability piece has to be that the individual, you know, really wanting to wanting to learn and hold themselves accountable in a way.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: what 1 one way I've thought about growth, mindset and psychological safety, because they clearly are in the same family of of. They're ta, they're tapping into the same phenomena, psychological phenomena. The growth mindset describes an individual
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: orientation that I, that I have an orientation toward being being willing to take risks so I can learn and grow and get better. I don't think of it, you know. Well, if I fail, that just proves I wasn't smart enough, right? So that that's sort of the that that
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: that internal stance, psychological safety, describes the emergent property, the climate that emerges in a group, you know, in a work environment.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: they go hand in hand because the more the individuals have a growth mindset the more they will likely contribute to a psychologically safe environment because they'll be taking risks, not everything will go well, right so and the more you have a psychologically safe environment, the more conducive it is to the growth mindset, because this is the kind of place where things don't go perfectly. My colleagues aren't gonna beat me up for it.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, I know. Interesting. So you know. So coming back to this question, it's it's kind of a complex one to hold in mind. But you know, like, can you have accountability without site? Safety? You know. Can you have psych safety with accountability? Can, you know? Take us a little bit?
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: I mean, I think you can like. Let's say I'm the kind of person who just
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: feels accountable for things. I wanna do a good job. I just tend to be motivated. But but if the job I need to do, you know, involves periodically asking for help or raising concerns or offering dissenting views, and I quickly size up that my environment is not conducive to those kinds of interpersonal risks. Then it's hard for me to exercise my
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: sense of accountability. I'm just gonna get thwarted by it. And I'm either gonna leave and go do this somewhere else. Or I'm just gonna stop being feelings accountable. Yeah, yeah, it's it's really it's interesting. It's a lot of great questions in the chat. I see them my teams helping distill some. There's a locks we've got. You know we've got about 800 or so people here.
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Dr. David Rock: So we're not ignoring you. We're gonna have time to get to those in a couple of minutes. But II think this, you know, there's one theme that I'm seeing in in the chat is like.
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Dr. David Rock: you know, this, this this challenge of sort of what a high order skill it is. Particularly creating psych safety and
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Dr. David Rock: and and then when you sort of bring in accountability, it's really interesting, because I like a lot of leaders, and I've been guilty of this myself at times, like a lot of leaders will. You know, we'll talk about the importance of these things. But their actions are really different, right? And and if they're not getting any feedback.
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Dr. David Rock: that's really, that's really difficult, right? They're they're not getting accurate, honest feedback about the impact of the, you know the versus their intent, their intense often, you know, great. But their impact is often really different, right? And so lack of kind of information, you know, in our company, we just we just literally launched a feedback survey against our manager principles where the entire company's, you know. Reviewing with hard metrics the whole senior leadership team against, you know our values. You know me included. I'm I'm looking forward to that data to see, like
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Dr. David Rock: you know, how we really, how we really leading, not how do we think we're leading? So it's, you know, in the absence of data, it's really easy for leaders to think that they're
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Dr. David Rock: you know, creating site safety. And you know, being kind. And all this, but the reality is often very, very different. So I think part of accountability is also kind of having data, having good good good information flowing, you know, in all directions. So that you know as a leader, you know, because that's that's a theme in the chat, for sure. You know, leaders think that they're creating site safety, but often not.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: Yeah. Let let me echo that and underline it because
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: I've been trying more and more recently to talk about psychological Savior, the creation of psychologically safe work environments
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: as a skill based issue, right? That this is in higher order. Indeed. And I think it's been. That's probably the thing that has been most ignored or downplayed or misunderstood, which is very few like. It's the minority of managers and leaders who have
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: the the level of of skill to create a learning environment. And it's just not natural. It's not often how people have been trained. And in order to do it. I think the most challenging of these higher order skills is the self awareness, right? The self awareness to Co perpetually know that you have a valid point of view, and you are most certainly missing something important.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: and to perpetually know that the others are bringing, you know, IM important but also potentially limited perspectives on the situation. And that's a kind of a you use the term earlier situational humility. But it's a self. It's a self awareness. It's an emotional intelligence. It's that that skill to just come in
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: as a learner eager to close the gaps that you absolutely know you have right interesting, you know, I actually think that might be a common cognitive
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Dr. David Rock: skill across growth, mindset psychology and accountability. And it's this recognition that you see one slice of the world.
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Dr. David Rock: You know that if you're a lawyer you see the downsides amazingly. But you won't see the upsides so well, right. If you're a marketing person. You'll see the opportunities really. Well, you won't see the downside so well, right like a a recognition that you see a slice, and the the way. You see, the world is valid to you, but other people have also completely valid perspectives, and we need all of them. And this, this is A, I think, is a really important one. And we, you know, we we tackle this
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Dr. David Rock: from A, you know, brain perspective, just, you know, showing how everyone's experience is so unique. And and I think if you can sort of get people to see that they'll they will be smarter. They will lead better
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Dr. David Rock: when they recognize that there that no matter how certain they feel, they're gonna be missing things because everyone has these different filters. And II think that's a it's a very foundational insight that you kind of need others, because brain only has one slice
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Dr. David Rock: that's common to all 3. Any other skills you think are common to all 3,
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: like, I think I think this is quite related, but curiosity, but then the then the the skill part of curiosity is to articulate the questions in a in a useful way, because many questions are asked, either you know, unwittingly, as leading questions, or unnecessarily as Yes, no questions when a more open, ended version would have been better. You know. What are you seeing? What are customers saying rather than our customers liking our new product?
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: And and so the the, you know, the skill to pause and articulate the right questions at the right moment to the data that you really need. That is a that is a skill the skill to recognize when a conversation is sort of going sideways
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: and know how to intervene to bring it back.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, yeah, interesting, interesting we've got. We've got some questions just before we do. We'll come to come questions in a minute, and I've got I wanna come to the Dei question in a second and we've had in, but just wanted to to mention to folks before we get too late in. We've we've been thinking about this question for a while about what are the critical habits across all of them? And for the first time in literally 26 years about history. We we think we've done enough research to be able to say, you know.
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Dr. David Rock: there, there are 9 habits that most leaders in most companies would benefit from learning. And we we just recently, for the first time in history, opened up like an open enrollment program, to be able to learn about the brain as a manager or leader. And it's it's a new solution called lead, but literally just launching it this month.
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Dr. David Rock: the first cohort starting in a few weeks, but if my team can put it in a link in the chat, you can see there's a there's a link just went in, so lead is a scalable digital, amazing 6 month experience with actually, we calling a neuro intelligent leadership enhancer that we've named Niles neuro, intelligent leadership enhancer. So Niles is an AI, or, as we call him, a neuro intelligent. AI,
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Dr. David Rock: AI, and you, you actually have this, this literally, this AI, that you have a conversation with and give you all these nudges about leadership. But anyway, it's a 6 month experience. Have a look at that, and it literally has growth. Mindsets like safety and accountability as the foundations. And we think we've worked out the critical 9 habits.
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Dr. David Rock: We'll we'll do a proper demo of that next week if my team can maybe put a link in for the chat as well. But if you're from an organization and you want to kind of look at that. Just put the word Lead and your company name in the chat, and someone will follow up. So lead Led and your company name. Someone will follow up, send you some resources. Get you into the the Demos.
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Dr. David Rock: And yeah, just lead. Thanks, Kimberly, for being the first one lead and your company name, and we'll follow up with some resources, invite you to the right events, etc. So anyway, that's that's something we've been thinking about a lot. And it's been really sort of converging on these 3 areas, growth, mindset psych safety and accountability. And we think there's a way to scale the teaching of this and really build habits. But let's come back to that. The question. So
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Dr. David Rock: we got about a good, you know, 1012 min for questions. One of them that came out sort of early, and I think it's interesting. One. Is there is there a situation where the goals of psych safety
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: kind of collide with the goals of of diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging like. Do you see a situation where they always aligned? Or is there a time? Ii think the the tension comes primarily from going beyond the the tasks, the the work tasks, but not always right, because sometimes the work tasks are very much about
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: inclusion right? So but but the so here the tension is, of course, that
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: if if I want to, if I if I if I want people to have permission for candor. Sometimes the things that they might be candid about are rather unpleasant, and and maybe deliberately discriminatory or exclusive ideas or behaviors.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: and and that's where I think we're better off when we know what we're up against, you know. Then when we when we keep PE when people are feel silenced or inhibited, and then we don't know. It might leak. Their attitudes might suggest their beliefs. But but
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: it it's you know, the I think probably the the biggest tension here is that a candor is hard and it's no good without skill. Right? So the very skills we're talking about before. We we really need people to learn, not just to speak up to, but to speak up effectively, right to speak in a way that actually has the impact and the and the you know the the impact that helps the shared goal. Progress. Right? So
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: so that's the hard. That's the hard part. That's a really hard part, and and I sort of take umbrage a little bit with the the sort of candor work that's coming out, because I think there's this like.
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Dr. David Rock: there's this sort of belief that if people were just more honest and direct, you know, everything would be better. And and I don't see that's the case. Actually been into a company where they they mandated regular feedback, and the company ground to a whole like it just stopped working. Right? So so you know, just being more direct, more honest isn't necessarily how you do it, how you do it. And the problem is, you know, II studied under Chris, who had this idea of you know the left hand column. They're the things you're
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: thinking and feeling, but not saying. And then there's things you're saying, and there's a disconnect, of course.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: and you know ideally we want those closer together. But the answer isn't. Just take your left hand column information and put it over in the right. God! No right. That would that would normally be rude, self centered, you know. Egotistical. It's it's it's not the right content. So the real, the real skill here is, how do you challenge and clean up your left hand column.
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Dr. David Rock: and then express it productively, thoughtfully, as we used the term before. And and this is, you know, they're they're not actually, it is not even close to a majority of people who have the skill to do this. Yeah, no, it's it's really interesting. So we we think of that as challenge, kindly, right and the kindly part you definitely could look at through the lens of scarf right people who don't know scarf. That is certainty. Autonomy related to fairness.
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Dr. David Rock: The 5 things driving the brain toward or away. And so you're trying to challenge people. But you know and be candid, but you're doing it in a way. That's the most helpful
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: as you as you can. And so you kindly minimizing those scars. That's kind of how we see it. And I think that you have to want to help right? You really do have to want to help, and you have to entertain the possibility that you don't have the whole picture, and that you may not be right, you may be missing something really important.
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Dr. David Rock: Yeah, yeah, I was just thinking about another habit that. And this addresses a couple of questions, another habit other than kind of aware that you only know a part of the story right? Another habit that's very actionable, that, I think, goes across all 3 is is asking for feedback.
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Dr. David Rock: And it's something we've been studying for a long time. It's a fascinating thing we did a lab study. We actually created the conditions for people to give and receive feedback.
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Dr. David Rock: Collected all this bio data in real time. You know, using a real scientific lab and amazing things we found, you know, receiving feedback's very stressful. We all knew that giving feedback turns to be as stressful or more, which was surprising, which is why people are bad at it. But it turns out when the the recipient asks for feedback, it's about half as stressful for both sides.
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Dr. David Rock: So it ends up being better. But this interesting thing happens, and I saw this in a leadership retreat I ran a few weeks ago. I had the CEO and the top 20 of the business together for a couple of days, and we we ran this exercise, teach them how to ask for feedback, and then we we got them practicing, and honestly, that before and after of just the culture in this team was completely different, right? Completely different. And all that we did is we taught them to like, ask well for feedback
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Dr. David Rock: and then receive it. Well, right? And there's a certain, you know, series of techniques. Not that hard to learn, but really powerful. And what it did is it created a growth mindset because learning from others is one of the 3 critical pillars of growth mindset. It created psychological safety because they both got to to do this, and it also created accountability. So I think that skill. And that's that
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Dr. David Rock: lead program. That still is, I think, across all 3 other. Any other come up for you that you think are across all 3. I mean you, you engineered psychological safety and and and I and I love that. I mean sometimes just a simple
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: process of rounds is a is a kind of psychological safety creating. Because in a, in a discipline of we're going to go around. We're going to do a check in, let's say, we have people sharing something they find relevant and important to consider, and others are are genuinely listening. And you know nobody gets hurt. And
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Dr. David Rock: and and and it's sort of that. In that moment you've got a psychologically safe situation. Yeah, fantastic. I've got a really fun question for you in a moment. But my team's just reminded me about something that we're we have a crazy growth mindset. At the moment we're experimenting like crazy with all sorts of things. So we just decided literally this week we're going to experiment with an in person Kickoff.
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Dr. David Rock: of a lead cohort. So leaders in a cohort, and I'm personally going to deliver that in San Francisco or Silicon Valley, somewhere around there on on March twentieth, about a month from now. So we're going to have a day in person to kick off
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Dr. David Rock: the 6 month journey. And you know, in a cohort of people. So I think my team's got a link for that in the chat. We'll also send that out to folks. But it's it's we're experimenting literally just this week, like, why don't we try this? See? If people like the idea. So we're gonna have a day in person. I'm leading that to kick off this 6 month journey. And this journey, like literally has all the critical habits you need to
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Dr. David Rock: to lead people from a brain perspective. Better. But let me so. I think the the most fun question of all, the most challenging and maybe the most important and the most fun.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: And and that is Amy. What would you say to a CEO like? Give us the words, Give us the pitch. What would you say to a CEO who says, You know, we don't need this like safety stuff anymore. We need to focus on accountability. What are you gonna say to them? Say, gosh, II wish that were the case. Here's here's the worry I have about that.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: There is a great deal of uncertainty in your business environment today, and without psychological safety, you are at risk of not hearing about the things that are really happening. People in teams are at risk of being unable to do the experiments they need to know. I mean, they need to do in order for you to succeed. Not just today, but even more importantly, over the long term. And here's why. Right? So I kind of draw connect the dots
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: between. Why, psychological safety is mission critical to performing well in an uncertain world? Not, you know. I mean, you just simply cannot.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: you can't wish away reality
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Dr. David Rock: right?
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Dr. David Rock: Right? And and it's not just kindness and and and empathy it. It actually requires clarity about outcomes. So you you can't already have it without clarity about outcomes. So it's not devoid of accountability. You actually need accountability accountability. And it's, you know, the primary thing that you, even if you say that out loud, Mr. Or Miss CEO? And or if you're just thinking it.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: you will not succeed in creating a sort of culture of magnificent, accountable execution. You will largely succeed in a culture of things going underground people, just not really speaking the truth to each other, and or not taking the risks they need to take to succeed over the long term. Yeah, people just going to ground. Yeah. So you know, as as we close, you know, all our work. We think of 3 things you've got to do, make something a priority, build habits put in place systems.
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Dr. David Rock: Right? You need. You need both priorities, habits, and systems. And I think you know, this kind of culture. Changing an organization is is very, very possible, but it does require like people literally building new habits, and you know we've been thinking deeply about the kinds of habits here, and this has been super helpful, Amy, to help for for everyone but myself especially, I'm sure to to like, really understand, you know, each of them, and how they connect.
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Dr. David Rock: I expect we're going to continue this conversation in writing and put some things out, but I think I think the reality is you can't have proper psych safety without accountability.
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Dr. David Rock: without people feeling like they, you know, want to get better, that they want to learn that they know what's expected of them. If people don't know what's expected of them, and they're not kind of leaning in and psychologically owning something. It's very hard to have, you know, for for these other 2 to exist. So thank you so much for for for being here today any closing comments before we wrap up. I think I'll just since you brought up the lead I'll bring up teams again, because I think you know.
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: one of the things that was most satisfying for me last year was sort of to come to you with my you know in inductive research based ideas. And have you and your team try to figure out where the neuroscience would suggest something different. And ultimately, after massive sort of debate and and exploration. We arrived
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Dr. Amy Edmondson: at a place where, wow! The neuroscience actually backs this stuff up. And then we developed materials to make it scalable for for your teams. So II think it's really
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Dr. David Rock: II mean it was. It was an experience for me that was very satisfying. And I'm very proud of the product. It's it's it's actually getting some incredible results out there. So it's set the stage. And by participation response, hopefully over a month, and you can scale that to the entire company. Folks just put the word team in the chat if you're interested in learning more about team put the word team in the chat and someone will follow up with you. With resources and more information. We might do a demo on team in the next couple of weeks. A product demo. So we can really bring that alive.
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Dr. David Rock: So yeah, the chats blowing up there. So team is a 30 day experience. You can do completely, digitally, or virtually or in person, all sorts of ways but you can scale that to any size audience in just literally 30 days, and actually get better results than doing it all in workshops. You can do it digitally. So thanks for thanks for the reminder, Amy. So fantastic, fantastic conversation. I'm really in like energized by the connections between these things, my brains buzzing with all the more research. We wanna do
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Dr. David Rock: I think. Just, Amy. Thank you so much for your participation today for your thoughtful comments. And you know, wish you well, with all your research, and to everyone else I'll let you jump off there, Amy. I'll just do some quick, closing comments. Thanks.
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Dr. David Rock: and and I'm gonna hand back. Just Shelby, you have any closing comments. I'm gonna hand back to you. Thank you so much for an amazing session today. So many insights. I'll jump off there and hand back to you for some closing comments. Thanks so much. Take care!
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Shelby Wilburn: Awesome thanks, David, again. Thank you, and thank you, Amy. That was such a fantastic conversation with a ton of insights. Now for closing, let us know how we can help you. We're gonna share our poll. So please engage with that just a few quick things. If you weren't able to join us at this year's summit, we do still have on demand passes, and you could see a panel where David and Amy also had a similar conversation along with a lot of other great sessions. So
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if you're interested in that, we can share the link in the chat. And if you enjoyed today's conversation, you'll love, the podcast, as David mentioned, there are some episodes from previous guests, and a ton of information on there, too. So look for your brain at work, live wherever you listen to your podcast and this is where we officially say farewell. So on behalf of our team behind the scenes. Thank you so much for being here. We appreciate you taking the time to join us every Friday, and
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Shelby Wilburn: and we'll see you back here next week. Have a wonderful day.