The modern workplace is overdue for a reframing of accountability as a workplace concept. How can leaders use accountability to empower teams rather than worry or punish them? And why should they? Join Dr. Ryan Curl (Director of Impact and Measurement, NLI) and Will Watkins (Associate Consultant, NLI) for this discussion on the importance of accountability at work. They'll lead the community in a discussion to cover some key questions: What is workplace accountability? Why does it matter now more than ever? What does science tell us is the best approach to accountability at work? How can leaders inspire employees to take ownership of the results the organization needs to achieve?
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Shelby Wilburn: Welcome back to another week of your brain at work. Live! I'm your host, Shelby Wilburn, for our regulars. We're happy to have you back. And for those of you that are new. Thanks for being here today. In this episode, we're going to be discussing accountability at work, and why it matters more than ever now, as I quickly share some housekeeping notes, drop in the chat or comments where you're joining in from today.
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Shelby Wilburn: we are recording today's session. So if you're interested in a replay, be on the lookout for an email later today, that email is going to include a survey for feedback as well as a number of resources that are aligned to today's conversation. We suggest putting your phone on. Do not disturb quitting out of your email and messaging apps. So you can really get the most out of today's discussion. And it's also going to help with your audio and video quality. And we love interaction. So feel free to share your thoughts and comments with us in the chat.
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Shelby Wilburn: Now, to get this show underway, I'm going to introduce our speakers for today. We have a full house. So
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Shelby Wilburn: for our first guest, since joining an Alli in June 2022, he has honed his passion and expertise in promoting the research based habits and behaviors that help individuals reach their full potential in the workplace with a graduate degree from Aziza Pacific University, and an undergraduate from Crichton University. He works with analyze talent and performance practice to drive tangible, lasting impact across projects and partnerships, through analyzed community for organizations to elevate and enable their people.
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Shelby Wilburn: Please join me in welcoming associate consultant at Nla William Watkins. Well, it's great to have you here today.
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William Watkins: Thanks, Shelby, happy to be here
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Shelby Wilburn: nice. Our next guest for today is fascinated by the complex relationship between our behavior and neural activity. He pursued this interest at University of Buffalo, where he earned his master's in neuroscience as well as completed his Phd. In cognitive psychology at Syracuse University.
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Shelby Wilburn: Now, as a team member at Nli, he focuses work on interpreting and translating scientific research into actionable insights for organizations. He uses expertise in cognitive psychology, specifically in human memory and decision making and advanced computational analysis to advise inform and support the creation of our scalable solutions. Please welcome me in joining.
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Shelby Wilburn: Please join me in welcoming the director of impact and measurement at Nli. Dr. Ryan curl, Ryan. It's great to have you here.
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Dr. Ryan Curl: hey, Shelby? Thank you. So much. Happy to be here
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Shelby Wilburn: Nice and our moderator, for today is the director of research at the Neuro Leadership Institute, where she focuses on translating cognitive and social neuroscience into actionable solutions for organizations as well as helps to communicate relevant research in an accessible manner for the public.
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Shelby Wilburn: Previously she was professor at Dominican College and New York University, and a researcher at the Nathan Klein Institute. She holds a bachelors degree from Brown University and a Phd. In neuroscience from New York University. A warm welcome to the Director of Research at Nli. Doctor Emma Saro. Thanks for being here today, Emma again, and I will pass it over to you. Thanks, Shelby.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: So so excited to be here with both you, Ryan and will as you all know, we've been working pretty hard together on understanding this construct. And just for anyone who's been here the last couple of weeks. We've kind of been like building up towards this topic, and we're gonna culminate in a like larger discussion next week. On kind of a combination. But last week we covered a bit of our Pov around
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Dr. Emma Sarro: the neuroscience and psychological safety. Like unnecessary second step, is really covering the idea of accountability in the workplace, and we'll touch on a little bit about how they are kind of like a necessary balance between the 2 of them and really dive in specifically into the idea, like, what is accountability? You know the 2 different forms of accountability and and the shift that
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Dr. Emma Sarro: we need to make to make it more of a productive and growth oriented version of it. So really lucky to have both Ryan and Will here, because, they're bringing to really important perspectives. So Will is in front of clients all the time he's talking to the industry. He has an idea of, like what clients are seeing? In the workplace, what matters to them? And how do they see accountability? And Ryan is able to support this with how
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Dr. Emma Sarro: you know what happens in the brain when we don't have accountability and how to create the right version of it? So we're gonna be able to, you know, swing back and forth between these 2 perspectives and really put it together.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: One thing that I do wanna kind of get everyone kind of thinking on this. And this is gonna help us to, as we think about. You know how to shift from a form of accountability that may hold people back to one that might allow people to grow is just think about what is accountability when you hear the word accountability, when you think about it being placed on you, or when you think about your team.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: What's the word that comes to mind? And I'd love to hear from both you will. And Ryan, when you think about maybe before you. You know, we dove into this research. What are thoughts that are coming up for you all, when you think about accountability.
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William Watkins: Yeah, thanks, Emma, II think for me. When I think about accountability, it's how you really demonstrate your internal responsibility to external partners. Right? So when I think about responsibility, is kind of like, how I
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William Watkins: kind of keep an alignment with myself, and accountability for me is really, how do I do that further? So if someone's asking me to do something, how do I show up and make sure that I accomplish and do what I've been asked to do.
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William Watkins: And, Ryan, I'd love to hear from you, too.
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Dr. Ryan Curl: Yeah, I think that's right on well, and I think for me, when I, you know, first started digging into the accountability research. I was
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Dr. Ryan Curl: blown away by how differently it was perceived and defined, and in in certain contexts it'll come up and sort of framed in different ways. So really like for me, the first step in was really trying to wrap our minds around. You know what's the most useful way to understand accountability and what? Therefore, you know, we should be focused on in terms of how to how to build it within organizations, too. So that was really what came up for me. When we first opened.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: It's great. I mean, the comments that are coming in are are amazing. Actually, you're almost doing our work for us. But one thing that Marie Daniels said. And this is gonna lead to the next kind of idea that we're going to cover is there are 2 views. There's one that's a personal accountability and one that is holding others accountable. So this kind of leads right into what we think about like the definitions of accountability. And why?
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Why? There are like words that sometimes we misinterpret. So, Ryan, can you kind of dive into these and help us kind of understand them.
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Dr. Ryan Curl: Yeah, sure. First, I just wanna call it Michelle's comment on the chat, I think seems like pretty much nailed it right there. I think we can close it up for the day, because, speaking about role clarity
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Dr. Ryan Curl: understanding the results, good or bad, that that we'll talk about that throughout the session. So I think that's right on. But yeah, so I think what we.
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Dr. Ryan Curl: You know what I think. What we first understood was that there are these lot of really related terms that sort of refer to separate but but relevant aspects of accountability. And the first part is this idea that you're you know you're intrinsically motivated to set goals and reach them for your own personal benefit. And that's sort of responsibility, you know, it's really a personal
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Dr. Ryan Curl: aspect of something that will build into accountability. But accountability, especially in the workplace as a social component to it. There are social commitments made that are ideally clarified and understood and agreed upon, and and then those things have to be met or
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Dr. Ryan Curl: are negotiated. Right? So there's this social aspect to it which brings an entire other realm in in terms of, you know, making sure that we're clear about tasks being assigned to us that we feel that we can accomplish tasks being assigned to us. And and that's that we're seeing the world similar the same way, or similarly enough.
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Dr. Ryan Curl: you know, across our teammates, you know, up and down the hierarchy throughout our organization to to form this sort of holistic version of accountability which then leads us to.
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Dr. Ryan Curl: I think, pursue the desire to want to have ownership over over certain tasks, projects that are going on in the workplace. And so, yeah, this is kind of a rough kind of a formulation of how we see these things feeding into each other and kind of
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Dr. Ryan Curl: forming this, this desire for ownership. What do you think? Will anything else coming up?
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William Watkins: Yeah, I think the important thing here, too, is that from an organizational perspective, we can't make people more responsible. Right? That's a self choice. But what we can do is create an environment where accountability can happen and can be easier to accomplish. And that's a lot of what we're really focusing. I think the time every day is talking about that piece versus kind of
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William Watkins: how well you're keeping up with your New Year's resolution, so to speak. Right? I think that's the framing that we wanna really keep in mind here as we think about, you know not just what is accountability. But how do organizations really allow to thrive in their in their cultures?
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, so you can kind of. You can imagine a world where you might have individuals that are very good at holding themselves responsible for their tasks, but without having, like an organizational, like understanding or environmental, like culture, of accountability, you won't actually have, like true ownership.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: alright. So let's talk about like, what's the state of accountability, though right, it's not that easy.
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William Watkins: And and and I think this is kind of the biggest 91 of employees
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William Watkins: really great. The economy's important. And yet from our own research in 2020 on performance management, 97% of both managers and employees struggle
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William Watkins: with accountability. Not just it's challenged. But it's next to use the word struggle with accountability. And I think that's a a critical piece here is that it's something that we we know needs to get done. We all value it, but it's something that is so challenging forms at least to accomplish. And I think there's some really critical statistics here
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William Watkins: on the next side of just how that shows up for organizations. And while employees struggle with this, 18% of executives, actually say, this is their biggest weakness is actually being able to hold people accountable. So when we think about tallying an organization from from, you know, just 96% employees think it's hard. But even senior executives say, this is the thing I struggle with the most.
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William Watkins: and that really translates to is that for employees 60% of employees are really unsure what it takes to succeed. So I don't even know what they're really gonna be accountable to.
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William Watkins: And then about 93% of response from this really great cultural partner study on accountability about 3 or 4 years ago really say that they're unable to align the work they do. And then how to be accountable for the desired results. So there's this big disconnect in the workplace right now of the desire to hold people accountable. These are to have an accountable workforce, and what we're seeing in terms of trends, and it really translates a lot into
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William Watkins: the type of accountability we try to put in, and the type of accountability organizations try to foster
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William Watkins: in in trying to hold people accountable per se. And we'll see this in the next slide. We'll talk about the difference between
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William Watkins: a type of accountability may have thought of as driving results versus what actually drives results.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah. And actually, I just wanna come in real quick with a question from Ashley. Do you think? Cause this is kind of pertinent right now, do you think accountability expectations have changed post pandemic and moving to remote workforce.
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William Watkins: Absolutely. And and I think not only have they changed, it's become what we've seen, both in our research on hybrid and the accountability research is, it's harder and harder for managers to understand. How do I hold someone accountable in a hybrid work? Environment? What does that look like? How is that different? What? What skills do I need to have to do that? And it's really changed because we've
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William Watkins: I'm from world where, if I can see you and I can talk to you, then I can get you understand where your work is right, and there's more of a fluidity with the work environment we have right now, are you in? It's this person on this day. What are they working on? And there's a lot of trust that's in. That's part of that.
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William Watkins: And I think that's drastically changes. You know, the past year in organizations moving from what felt like sort of a I wanna say is that we were trying to get through Covid. And now we're in this post environment where we're sort of
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William Watkins: the pension swinging back. But we're kind of moving to sort of more of that accountability of forced rankings and performance management systems trying to to return to office with sort of a mandatory components that we're seeing. And I think it's because we're trying to solve this particular issue. And we don't know how to do it. Well.
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Dr. Ryan Curl: yeah. And I just think I'll add quickly, too, that we're also dealing with the incorporation of new technology into the workplace. Now, too, which, contingent on our view, or like our overarching
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Dr. Ryan Curl: like the state of accountability within the workplace, that new technology can be used in drastically different ways, right? Like you might decide that a strong bit of surveillance based technology which is getting cheaper and cheaper and easier and easier to do, might be a form of accountability in your mind in your workplace. Right? So I think we're really at this place where we need to get accountability right, or else it can go drastically wrong.
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Dr. Ryan Curl: considering things we'll just set. And now the this this push for a new technology into the workplace that's already happening and and going to be escalating here in the in the near future, too.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, absolutely. And it seems like, kind of you know, the the easiest way forward. Let's just use some kind of like easy technology to make sure others are accountable without trying to get it right.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: so I think we should just go into what we're kind of talking about this shift of behaviors, because this is because accountability doesn't have to be a bad thing. It doesn't have to be. A negative term doesn't have to be something that we're we're afraid or avoid. It should be something that all of us lean into. And so I'd love to hear your thoughts on this shift. What is this shift that we're talking about from something that's more punitive to something that's more growth.
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Dr. Ryan Curl: Am I taking that one? Yes, so. And actually, I loved. I love Anna's. Comment in the chat about like this sort of surveillance accountability that I was referring to being like policing. And yeah, I think that's right. And what we're sort of referring to here, how we're framing, that is punitive accountability. And I think that stems from the idea that
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Dr. Ryan Curl: you know through. You know what we've learned from the research and the way that people speak about accountability and how people perceive accountability is that it's not. It's just a term. It's not good or bad in and of itself it's perceived drastically differently between individuals, between across organizations, between researchers, that we've noticed, too. And so what we've did, we we did here is, we sort of
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Dr. Ryan Curl: extracted these 2 forms of accountability. One, that's this kind of negative form. And then this ideal shift to this better form. So this kind of negative form we're framing as punitive accountability, which is that like, look, we have someone to blame for mistakes that happen within the organization. Right? We, we go about our tasks. Something happens. And we, we, you know, distribute blame a. A. Accordingly, and that's sort of this punitive form of accountability that leads to fear. It leads to suppression of.
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Dr. Ryan Curl: you know, an honest account of what happened or what you were assigned right? And there's many things that are linked to that, too, that we'll talk about later, like psychological safety growth mindset that are that are hindered through this sort of punitive form of accountability that you know, someone must be blamed for the things that happened here. And instead, we wanna see this shift to growth accountability, which is that, you know, we understand
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Dr. Ryan Curl: that not only do mistakes happen, but they're like the doorway into growth and progress. So we balance productivity with the understanding that things aren't going to go the way that perfectly the way that we laid out that we can sort of
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Dr. Ryan Curl: get the most out of that, and hold each other accountable while understanding that we're always progressing, growing capable of mistakes and moving forward in a way that's really healthy and and adaptive. And I think, well aligned with what what I'll talk about later. Really, the way humans are are have evolved to to desire. And what we're built for. So yeah, I'll pause there, William, or am I anything to add?
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, I think that
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William Watkins: really great description. And I think it's it's the idea, right of where accountability is is how I produce results to how I show progress, how I show that I'm developing, how I show that I have
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William Watkins: reached the goal that I need to set out to do. And I kind of you will get more into the psych safety element. But it sort of punitive is like it's all on me. I don't have control over what the outcome is to growth, which is.
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William Watkins: I need to ask for help. For this. I need to get like to to solve the problem that I'm not able to meet. I'm still accountable for what the solution is, but I need to figure out how to make that happen versus.
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William Watkins: I don't know how to make this work as kind of the the way I'm seeing this kind of come through when we get to the elements a little bit later. But I think it's a really great shift in how we're thinking about from a fixed approach of
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William Watkins: who do we blame to sort of? How do we own a solution to what needs to happen.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah. And it's some really great comments coming in. It's hard to kind of keep up with them. But Lindsay just had this really great kind of analogy, or or an experience where she had a leader that helped them understand that there was a difference between a mistake and negligence, and that's, I think, a really important difference. And I don't know if any any of you want to talk to that like how that difference comes up.
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Dr. Ryan Curl: Yeah, I think that's a great point to me that and we'll talk about this a little bit later, too, that comes with the like collective clarity around what's being assigned and what's expected right and the freedom to
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Dr. Ryan Curl: you know, to think clearly and to discuss clearly about you know what unforeseen events happen throughout the chain of events, and and so that there is.
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Dr. Ryan Curl: so that the picture is more clear in terms of what's negligence versus what's an honest mistake. You know what could be foreseen, what couldn't have been with real like clarity across the board in that really critical social element. But I think accountability
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Dr. Ryan Curl: done properly builds up, builds on
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Dr. Emma Sarro: absolutely. It's a great point. Yeah.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: alright. So let's let's move into kind of how how we often try to like before we dive into the science, right, it seems, and a lot and a lot of us are kind of catching on to this. Now that there's there's a shift in a mindset. So how do we like most simply think about the shift of how we even define same word? How do we look at the word differently. Well, do you wanna talk to this slide a bit?
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William Watkins: Yeah. I think when we look at the Cr, it's really sort of like, think about this time of of shifting from blaming the State to owning the solution right? And so I think there is
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William Watkins: a lot of times where it, when we think about accountability into that. That conventional wisdom is, it's either I'm going to say I didn't have enough time. I didn't have this. It's sort of think about it was the market, you know, XYZ was happening versus
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William Watkins: accountability is, people are empowered to own their solutions. Okay, so this didn't go right. So now, how do I fix this? How do I take the feedback? I've been given to figure out, and how to solve this moving forward and and really hold on to, how do I drive the result that needs to happen? And I think those are 2 very different things.
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William Watkins: and I think it allows us to also to to have the autonomy and control of actually creating a solution and more of a really growth mindset approach. Whereas I think, when we look at the conventional wisdom approach, it's sort of like
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William Watkins: the the game of clue, right like. Who did it? When did they do it? When did they do it with? We're not really thinking, in in a sense, or a mindset of how do we actually empower a solution that drives forward progress from organizations.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Absolutely.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: So I think, what everyone's waiting for is really to talk about like where at its core, this is coming from, and maybe, how like, how and what we typically do is use this to help us understand what to do better, right? How to build this better. So, Ryan, would you talk about this whole idea of goal pursuit? And like, how that links to accountability?
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Dr. Ryan Curl: Yeah, yeah, I'd be happy to so you know, I think the heart of it. And the core message here is that you know, we're really built for a what we're framing is this growth form of accountability? And one way to think about that is to understand, you know, in this case, and what's kind of being represented here is how our dopaminergic system
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Dr. Ryan Curl: pushes us towards goal pursuit. And so, maybe a common misconception regarding how dopamine functions in the brain is that it's sort of the reward at the end of of an accomplishment, and there's some truth to that. But the really, II think, more important and and
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Dr. Ryan Curl: more accurate way to think about dopamine is that it's built for us to to to it's built so that we can. It can push us towards accomplishing our desires to moving towards our our desires. It's our motivating force, said another way. And within that is the understanding that. And I think this is so important in the context of accountability that we live in a in so like a insurmountably uncertain world.
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Dr. Ryan Curl: And so the dopamine system is built to make some prediction about our reality and about our expectations in the world, contingent on how we act, our understanding of how how others will act, which is also critical for accountability. And it's constantly updating and learning based on feedback that's coming back in and ultimately with the goal of motivating us, to move forward, to accomplish our goals, to to make good on our promises, etc., right?
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Dr. Ryan Curl: But there's this huge social component. And there's all these factors that are getting fed in to make these predictions that are ultimately laced through. How our dopamine is
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Dr. Ryan Curl: is disseminated throughout our brain. So one key aspect of this is, and you can go to the next slide there, Emma, please, if you would. Oops, yeah. is is through reward, prediction, error. And so the key kind of heart of this of the take home message here is that this system is highly
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Dr. Ryan Curl: sensitive to feedback. That's that's really the key piece here. So we makes it makes some prediction about what is to be expected and some reward associated with that expectation. And then we process reality, what actually happens. And we learn from that. And so this, that's really what we're built for is that like clear
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Dr. Ryan Curl: signal of feedback to move us towards goals, to make us better, to to help us to to accomplish more things. And that's really what we want as humans, I think, overall. And so how this Fe links to accountability is that accountability done properly allows for
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Dr. Ryan Curl: clarity in this feedback system, so that we can talk to each other about. Hey? This is what I said I was going to do. I was super clear about this. I understood what my teammates were going to do. And now here's what's happened. Now let's talk about why, right? With full honesty, full sincerity, constructive.
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Dr. Ryan Curl: You know our constructive nature built into all of that alternatively. If we if we're in a punitive accountability system, you know, I might, thinking in my mind, this is what I said I was going to do, but I have to keep that to myself. Right? II have to figure out someone else to blame for this mistake, and I could might also fear
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Dr. Ryan Curl: being honest about someone else's contribution, because it could hurt them. It could hurt their performance right? There's all this noise in the feedback system if we have this punitive accountability
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Dr. Ryan Curl: culture that in our organization. And I guess, in our lives more generally. And so I guess the overarching point is, we're built for clear feedback, and we need that for proper accountability in the workplace, and I think to
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Dr. Ryan Curl: more broadly, get the most out of like the human experience. In general, it's really what we're wired for.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, that's such a great point. And and maybe kind of like, the other side of the coin. Is that because we're constantly updating, you know what happens when let's say, like a leader, you know, says they'll follow through with like XY, and Z. And then that doesn't happen like what happens in the brain. Let's say, when that expectation is not met. Yeah, and that gets to the heart of the fact like, the difference between responsibility and accountability is this really social component. And so one way to think about that
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Dr. Ryan Curl: is through the potential of a scarf threatened reward, right? Where we have some
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Dr. Ryan Curl: connection with each other in terms of our you know how
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Dr. Ryan Curl: I'm being perceived by others, and how they're perceiving me, and to the degree to which we feel connected to each other that we respect each other, that we can, that we can count on each other. That we're giving each other proper clarity and autonomy right. So these things can be threatened through this, either real or perceived, deviation between what was said would be done and what was actually done right? And that ultimately links. And I think this is something that came up in the chat earlier on, too, that
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Dr. Ryan Curl: from that comes this clear link from accountability to trust right where we want to have that trust in each other which is really
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Dr. Ryan Curl: I. You know I have.
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Dr. Ryan Curl: I expect this thing of someone else, even though we live in an uncertain world where many curve balls can be thrown our way right like. That's really what trust is. I trust you to do this thing in spite of the fact that there's a lot of unknown variables that exist in our reality. But nonetheless, I trust you. And that can be. And that trust can be damaged through
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Dr. Ryan Curl: misinterpretation of either. What was actually
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Dr. Ryan Curl: what someone actually committed to, and what they actually did right. And if there's all this noise in terms of you know what actually happened and what people feel feel comfortable saying to each other, right you know, that's kind of has a like safety vibe to it, and our growth mindset angle as well. The more that there's noise there, the the more that trust will be broken down, and the more that we'll feel this kind of social threat that will damage our ability to have. You know what we're coining growth accountability.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, absolutely. And and one thing that's just coming to mind a bit is just thinking about the social, the social piece of this, that we are so sensitive to what we observe around us to in our social interaction. So if we observe that the the culture is that one where individuals are are punished.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: It's more punitive, and they'll also react in the same way. And they're more likely to blame others. And so this is just. This is the way it is around here that we blame others for not getting things done. It will just continue so. It is. It truly is a culture shift that we have to kind of think about making the set of behaviors that we put in place, that we continue to do and reward. So the the onus, I guess on all of is all of us, and maybe leaders first
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Dr. Emma Sarro: and kind of like role modeling the behaviors that we want to see. One thing that I just wanted to throw to will is just this idea of the punitive accountability here and the in the way that Ryan's been talking about it like what processes do you see in place like in the workplace that really get in the way, or or foster the punitive accountability.
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William Watkins: Yeah, I mean, I think that the the biggest one is is how performance management and compensations run. II think that's really where it's where that end. That's the end point. So if we if we design a performance management system that is forced stacked rankings where it's
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William Watkins: who's who's fitting on here, and and you're trying to sort of
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William Watkins: show up in a way
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William Watkins: where it's it's all about the result piece, and not how you've developed or grown, and that's sort of what's reinforced as well, and how you develop leaders, then continuous type of punitive accountability. And I think you know beyond that as well within terms of systems. There's also a big component of just
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William Watkins: how you actually tell employees what success looks like. Right? There's a lot of written and unwritten rules and organizations. And the more you can flesh out that culture in a really essential way, the easier it is for people. Understand. Okay, this is what it looks like to be successful, right? And I think I think we see that show up in the the culture of accountability, but also those systems that reinforce that.
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Yeah.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: awesome. Alright. So let's talk about how to. I'm sorry, Ryan, did you have something else? Good point? Nope, that's it.
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Dr. Ryan Curl: So we wanna make this shift? Right? So how does this look then, Ryan, do you wanna talk? Yeah. So this is actually some really neat research that came out maybe within the last year or so, where they elucidated the mentality of people who thought of accountability more as a threat versus those that thought of as more of a worthy challenge is the way the researchers framed it, and they they kind of dug more, a little bit more deeply into what little components of
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Dr. Ryan Curl: of of that separate, this
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Dr. Ryan Curl: perception of accountability that we can kind of extract from the individual, and actually importantly, here and probably should have been represented in this slide. And maybe it's obvious is that this, the this difference in how accountability was
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Dr. Ryan Curl: perceived had a strong link to intention workplace, satisfaction and intention to leave the workplace as well. So critical. How we're viewing accountability, but also our view of accountability needs to align with reality within the workplace as well. So okay, that's an aside. But what they?
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Dr. Ryan Curl: What they found was that those that thought of accountability, more of a threat, a as more of a threat felt as though they did not have control over the outcomes within the workplace, so that their contribution really had nothing to do with what happened at the end of the day. And they're a and what you know was the interesting kind of hopefully insight for leaders is.
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Dr. Ryan Curl: you know, to what degree? If if you see that perspective, or if you're aware of that perspective within your employees, to what degree is it true? Right? Because you might want to change the perspective. But you may also want to change the degree to which your employees really do have influence over you know, overall outcomes and with
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Dr. Ryan Curl: with this feed this sort of pessimism that you might pick up on the workplace as well. This sort of. We're not going to succeed anyway. Mentality? Why does it matter? Kind of mentality? Well, and you know, maybe it's somewhat obvious that will lead to this this perception of of not wanting to take accountability, or or take a take ownership of tasks. And then last, but certainly not least, is this idea of what to Graham actually capable of doing the things I'm I'm accountable for right or being told that I'm accountable for
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Dr. Ryan Curl: I think it stands to reason that if you don't feel like you can actually do the things that you're being held accountable for, you're going to think of accountability as a threat. And so I think,
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Dr. Ryan Curl: there's 2 really key ways. I think leadership can understand this.
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Dr. Ryan Curl: The first way is, if you're picking up on these perspectives, you can. It follows logically how your workforce will treat accountability, and we'll think of accountability. And you can start being a little bit more nuanced in terms of how you start addressing this, we need perception or and reality of more control over over the workplace. We need optimism. Right? We need to. We need to know that our contributions will
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Dr. Ryan Curl: will matter right and and will create. You know, this sort of bright future as it's written here and then, and then either confidence well, both confidence and their ability to achieve their goals, but also skill building when necessary. Right? Let's make sure people are capable and feel that they're capable.
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Dr. Ryan Curl: you know, before we just kind of expect a a toward state towards accountability without putting these pieces aligned to. And the research was clear here, too, and like I said at the at the beginning of this,
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Dr. Ryan Curl: th! The sort of accountability is as threat. You know, those employees aren't going to last long because they wanna leave, and they're not happy. And and obviously we don't want that as well. But I'll pause there. Mr. Well, anything to add?
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Dr. Emma Sarro: I do have one question that is coming in actually, a couple couple of times over in our in our QA. Is the idea of the link between any kind of cultural difference and accountability, and whether or not you think maybe stereotype threat might come into play
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Dr. Emma Sarro: any thoughts here.
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Dr. Ryan Curl: Hmm! That's a great question.
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Dr. Ryan Curl: Specifically stereotype threat to the degree to which that might might play a role.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Or if you think about, maybe the the difference, the cultural differences that we're thinking about in terms of, like our our scarf domains, for instance, scarf into this, and like the like differences and and sensitivities to maybe like status threat might differ across cultures.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: you know, sense of like autonomy might differ across cultures, and how capable individuals feel such a good question, and the sort of self fulfilling prophecy in terms of
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Dr. Ryan Curl: you know my perception of how others view me, which might be something like a stereotype thread. And then me sort of feeding into that myself, right? And having that sort of demoralizing link there, too. Yeah, so I could, I could definitely see that. And that I think maybe the bigger picture there is that
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Dr. Ryan Curl: you know, there's so many factors in terms of what's the reality in terms of the system that exists within the organization? You know how and
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Dr. Ryan Curl: what's the relationship between that?
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Dr. Ryan Curl: It's the good degree to which it's fine tuned for growth accountability. But then, also, what's the perception of it? Right? Because that's critical as well. So you need to
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Dr. Ryan Curl: be clear about both of those things. You can't just, you know, implement what you believe is a good accountability system, and imagine and assume immediately that everyone's perception. Wall, align nicely to that, too, right? And not only that. There's, you know, there's accountability at so many different levels. There's accountability at the organizational structural level which we'll talk about. But then there's accountability in terms of the interpersonal relationships that exist
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Dr. Ryan Curl: across teams right across you know, manager employee relationships, team dimensions between teams as well. Right? So there's so many different factors there to consider that where where your perception could change
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and really complicated and nuanced ways. I think throughout the organization as well.
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Yeah.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: any other thoughts coming up?
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Well, I think that. You know, as we think about all this research. So we've been doing a ton of research. And now, understanding where this comes up and where we want to get to, we have this from to shift. We want to get to more of a growth, accountability and understanding how to produce that both with our understanding of how the brain works and what we see in the workplace. These are the 3 like general habits we're thinking about, and we often
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Dr. Emma Sarro: love to talk about like the the major habits we want to embed to create the culture. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, both in like what are the neural underpinnings of each of these and like, what does it look like on the workplace?
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Dr. Ryan Curl: Yeah. So maybe I'll start with the neural underpinnings, Will, and I'll throw it out for you. So yeah, for think ahead, II think the the really, the science underpinning here is the power of kind of imagining what it would take to accomplish a task. That's that you've assigned yourself, or that you've been assigned right? And and more than that about you know what broadly is your role, what's your role in this project? How does it relate to the collaborative
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Dr. Ryan Curl: relationship you have with your teammates, etc. But the point in terms of the neuroscience is that we know, really clearly, that the the degree to which we spend time and effort, imagining how we will accomplish a task and and starting to understand the different contingencies that might come into play there the roadblocks we might face and and starting to build a
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Dr. Ryan Curl: plan for those things, you know, the more able we are. We're going to be to accomplish those goals. And so if we do that on a personal level, that's great. But then we also need to branch out and do that throughout, like a more collective understanding of everyone's role. So we're that we're seeing this clearer and clearer picture about. You know what sort of what's the path that's lined out, and what are the contingencies in case these roadblocks that we're starting to understand more and more come up. And and we understand that not only about our own
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Dr. Ryan Curl: role in in some project, but about our our colleagues as well. So I think that's really the heart of the think ahead test is really thinking those things clearly. And then I think what comes to that and how this follows into
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Dr. Ryan Curl: the commitments we make is that you know we want to know what we're committing to right well and thinking ahead will help us with that. But I'll pause there. Will anything come up for you before we
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Dr. Ryan Curl: we move on?
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William Watkins: Yeah, II think really, when you're talking about that. Think of it. It's about creating clarity for yourself. and then thinking about how you do that for others. And then also, is it a lot of times we're we're willing to take on a task, or say I'll be. I'll be accountable for that, or taking on the accountability
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William Watkins: without fully thinking through the time commitments, you know, time blindness comes up right. Or you know, we're we're kind of all putting out fires in this Luca world that we're in and thinking about how how that comes through. To help, then get the resources you might need to actually accomplish that to, I think, is it? Is it differentiated between. That is a growth center accountability versus sort of opinion of account. They were just taking that on without thinking through
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William Watkins: and then I love the obsessive commitments. I don't know if obsess, I've seen some comments that might not be the right word, but
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William Watkins: II think the importance here is that you wanna figure it was like your inner 3 year old when you promise that you're gonna get your child ice cream that they just consistently remember that you said you're gonna get that way. Screen. That idea of
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William Watkins: you said you were going to do this by Friday at 5, and you're not
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William Watkins: Friday at 3 being like Monday is okay. It's about sort of having that con. That prediction of, okay. If we say we're gonna start a meeting on time, start meetings on time. Right? If we say we're by Friday at 5, we do that we don't let our
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William Watkins: I'll I like to call him tomorrow, William, take over and say, tomorrow's job, right? It's about really being obsessed about when you're sort of saying you're gonna get something done. And then I think, as you're talking through. We're getting to kind of own the outcome. And it's really just owning what actually happens. And then being empowered to find that solution.
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Dr. Ryan Curl: Yeah, definitely, and I'll just add and cause we're on the fence about. You know the word obsessed to in in this habit, I think as well, but part of that, I think.
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Dr. Ryan Curl: follows logically that like we're really clear. And it follows nicely from think ahead that we're really clear about what we're committing to
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Dr. Ryan Curl: right, so that we can obsess about it, and that so we can meet or even exceed expectations. Right? And then what we said earlier, too, about, you know, accountability having this strong social component to it as well is that you know, we want to understand that. That there's this interpersonal exchange happening here in terms of our commitments. Right? It's not just about your role in a task. It's about everyone's role coming together, and all of the commitments that were made
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Dr. Ryan Curl: that are aligned properly to what people are capable of doing. You know what they're excited about, right, what they're optimistic about as well. So I think that obsession is about not so much about. Oh, my God! I said, I was going to do this thing now I have to do it. It's more like we're obsessed about those details, so that we are like, really motivated about the commitments that we made. You know, I think it's a good way to think about it.
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Dr. Ryan Curl: and then maybe I can move into own the outcome, too, which I think in my mind in terms of the underlying science really has a strong
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Dr. Ryan Curl: like growth. Mindset lends to it, which I will. You already said, I think, which is really in this case, you know, a a. I think the neuroscience research that backs this up here nicely is that those that have a growth mindset have a stronger connections between this area of the brain that's responsible for error monitoring which we talked about earlier. And the reward pathway. And so what we've seen is that those that have a growth mindset, and that work in a, in a culture that facilitates a growth
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Dr. Ryan Curl: mindset is that they're far more attentive to mistakes that are that are made. And that's I think, that really brings in the whole story. Here is that own. The outcome is not on the things you did really well and forget about everything else. Right? It's about being really honest and open and and attentive to everything that happened right in terms of the outcome, so that you can learn from mistakes, and that's a and that would be reflected in
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Dr. Ryan Curl: the way our our brains have been wired in terms of having a growth mindset that will have this subtle reward towards the insight that's generated through either. Why something was successful, or why a mistake it was made and was made, or, you know, somewhere in between right? Some things went well, some things, didn't we? We learned from all of it, and we didn't shy away from honest conversation in any, in any piece of that puzzle, and I think that's really the heart of
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Dr. Ryan Curl: upon the outcome.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: What's coming up for you? Will anything.
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William Watkins: Yeah, I'm just gonna look at through the the chat here. And I think there's a lot of really interesting questions speaking about, you know, obviously, this is great. But how do I get this to happen in my culture, in my organization? How do I deal with
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William Watkins: the power dynamics? And I think I wanna just
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William Watkins: reflect that that's something we're gonna talk about here in a minute with some great research that that Ryan found and and kinda underpinning this, this approach in a workplace, because this is really what
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William Watkins: you in particular can do, or the culture within it can do. But that's just one piece of creating an environment in which accountability can happen and thrive in a really positive way. And so I think that's a an important thing to understand. And obviously
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William Watkins: there's only there is so much control this a certain person has. If your boss says I need it done by 5, and you're the one who's responsible, you know that is a form of punitive accountability
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William Watkins: that's coming to you, that you necessarily don't have power over right. And I think it's just important to acknowledge that. But that's why leaders are such a strong
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William Watkins: social influence in organization. So if the senior leadership in organization, down through trickling down is doing this and taking this step up upon themselves. It's going to then transfer and create that culture that that really allows this to happen.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: That's a great point. Yeah, there are so many great comments coming in. And I wish we had like another hour to go through them all. But one thing that I think a a very strong weave going through all of the comments. And what your conversation has been around is this idea of clarity? Op. Through so many levels. But what are the 2 really critical ones that we want to be like clear about? And this kind of feeds like a click deeper into our think ahead habit.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Do you want to cover that, Ryan?
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Dr. Ryan Curl: Oh, do you want me to take this one? Yeah, sure. So we talked about about thinking ahead and having that that clarity. I think we, you know, 2 of the key kind of realms for us to consider our our role and the task at hand, right? And that we're really making sure that we're creating the sort of collective clarity around these things right? And I think in terms of.
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Dr. Ryan Curl: You know we've said many times now the social aspect and the hierarchical aspect of of accountability, too, is that you know there's there's agreement a on not just your role in this task, but of your of your Co workers, too. Right? So we really wanna dig deeply into
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Dr. Ryan Curl: a a into clarifying these things a as a critical foundation that we can build accountability on top of right. Because, you know, II think.
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Dr. Ryan Curl: regardless of intentions. If there's noise in the system in terms of you know what the initial agreement was, and whether or not it's reasonable, and whether or not we're motivated towards it, you're going to start gravitating towards this punitive accountability, because if there wasn't clarity in the initial the initial understanding, then it's just this sort of blame game that might come sort of naturally afterwards. So so really, this first step is is this like detailed
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Dr. Ryan Curl: understanding of role and and task clarity in particular, William anything to add there.
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William Watkins: yeah. And and I think the a lot of the research on, like the current state of accountability is, it's not a neglectful or malicious intent where people are like, I'm just not gonna work. But while there is some of that, that's not the majority of the accountability issues a lot of it actually stems from just these 2 pieces. So it's really I don't. I don't know what my role is on this project, because so much of the work that happens right now is so much project basis. Not really a direct manager working with a project
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William Watkins: lead. And you're working with a bunch of team members. And so we just don't really understand. Where, where is the boundary of my role to your role? And and what am I actually, what are the tasks within that role? Then I'm actually supposed to to work on and clarify. And that's a lot of what some great research out there, including Monday. Com, did it really interesting
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William Watkins: piece of research on accountability. And and most of it is, we started this project. Someone's got a great idea. We get a team assembled, and then about we have 5 or 6 meetings, and then sort of nothing happens right? And why does nothing happen? Is because we haven't clarified
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William Watkins: the role or the task for everyone really to achieve what it is we're looking to do. We've been on those projects. We've been on those committees. It's a lot of great energy that it drives things for. But without the clarity you can't have that accountability piece, and I think that's so critical.
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William Watkins: Especially as we're thinking about.
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William Watkins: You know this in.
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William Watkins: you know, growth, centered accountability or growth accountability piece is, you know, understanding your role, understanding how you want to grow in that role, and what solutions you need on, based on the task that you have. And I think there are. There are things in which
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William Watkins: you know, is it? Is it fair? Is it reasonable to part of that? Think ahead piece right like, is this something I actually could do? Do I have the time and space and capacity? Because we're all
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William Watkins: amazingly wonderful people that sometimes really want to say yes, in positions where we can't. And then we end up, not not following through on what we actually said we were going to do as well.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: That's such a great point, and it brings up the I like some of the ideas that we're going to kind of talk about next. And one thing that just kept speaking to me is this idea of
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Dr. Emma Sarro: of whether or not there is psychological safety. To say that you don't have the skills or to try if there's lack of clarity on on what individuals are supposed to do? Who's going to be the one that that asks? You know, what do I need to do, or can I try this? Or can I experiment with this? I mean, if there isn't any psychological safety, no one will even try to step in and finish it. And so II think that necessary balance between the 2
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Dr. Emma Sarro: is critical. And so that's just one thing that's coming up for me. But I know these are things that in your research you found were the critical pieces to getting this right? And so can you speak to the idea, Ryan, on leader humility like what that is.
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Dr. Ryan Curl: Yeah. So I think ultimately. And and it's such a critical driver of of behaviors and culture in the workplace is the role modeling of of everyone, but but maybe in particular leaders, in some, in some realms more than others, but in terms of that, like.
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Dr. Ryan Curl: you know that initial freedom to speak openly about. You know, cl, what our role is, what I'm comfortable doing what I'm not what you know, what mistakes were made that starts from from leader humility. I think that we have that freedom to talk, that to, to speak about those things, and to really kind of own that outcome in a clear and honest way. And that's sort of the one of the initial drivers, and you'll hear more about this next week. When Amy Edmondson joins to talk about like
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Dr. Ryan Curl: psychological safety. But that really is that driver for psychological safety, which is, I think, a critical foundation for for accountability. And then what the research shows here that this is meant referencing is that once you have those things formalization, which is really that
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Dr. Ryan Curl: more than just that role and task clarity, but, like clarity built within the processes and alignment of of the processes within an organization in a way that are coherent with the sort of accountability that you hopefully growth, accountability that you want. That's really like the amplifier to get accountability right in some ways. Once you have humility, leadership, humility, and and from everyone else as well, psychological safety, I'd add growth mindset as well. We've talked about that quite a bit. A lot of overlap there between growth, mindset and psychological
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Dr. Ryan Curl: safety, too. But that form, that sort of process and system. Formalization is critical as well as that real amplifying piece
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Dr. Ryan Curl: that that then can can get us to the growth accountability that we want.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, absolutely right. And I think there's some really interesting comments in the chat about resourcing and having the tools to accomplish what you would do. And I think that's where that ability and the site safety to to have those conversations about
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William Watkins: clarity, because, I think, is is one person rowing here. There's, you know. How do we have the conversation about clarifying roles and outcomes. We don't know the psych safety to do it to start with right. And that's that is a really important thing. If you get on the team and and everyone sort of sitting there. We don't understand who's going to do what I think. There's a there's a great piece within that we'll talk. We'll be talked a lot more next week about psych safety. But
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William Watkins: I think in terms of formalization, right? That's sort of the the end cap of the bookend to how you sustain this over time. Right? You can't have this. Great culture. Leaders are humble. They're trying really hard. And then all your systems point to please let us punish people for not getting things done, and the only mistakes only promote leaders that
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William Watkins: take accountability for when they achieve success right. And I think those are. Those are things that are important to have as you think about creating that full coherence of accountability within your organization.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, absolutely. I think you you're kind of like leading us to like? Where do we even begin then? Right like, what? What do we do? What are the steps to get started if you're if you're thinking about helping leaders role model this?
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William Watkins: Well, yeah. And and I think things are, I think it really folks down to really 3 key areas to begin with.
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William Watkins: And and I think the first one here is upscaling leaders, right? So giving leaders the the ability and the habits to understand. How do you have a performance conversation and provide feedback in a way, for someone for them to have a positive outcome? Right? So, having those skill sets right in being able to actually hold someone accountable
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William Watkins: in a growth oriented way. Because I think so much of it is for managers and for leaders. We're not really understanding how we do that. Right? So how do we create clarity? How do we create clarity within our systems, too? And that really gets the second point of article and a lot of the great leadership frameworks that we've built in culture frameworks
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William Watkins: really focus on that clarity piece to drive key results. And there's a really good analogy from, you. See, this presentation, but desire to have that happen because it is so important to have. Okay. One of the things that are most important for me to focus on.
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William Watkins: to be successful in my organization, and allows us to have the capacity, then create clarity, to then have a an ability to really focus on what is the essential things to get right
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William Watkins: in the organization. And then the the biggest thing here, that sort of submits, both of those is really creating coherence. So having performance systems having a feedback mechanism for your teams, for your managers from place to have feedback that's frequent to have debrief after each
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William Watkins: project, having postmortems to understand.
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William Watkins: You know what what went wrong on this or what went right? And how did we clarify at the beginning building in those systems, and probably most important within that that submits. That is is your performance management system. You know. How are you tracking conversations? How are you making sure that you have a culture or feedback? Is asked, not just from a manager to employ, but across certain, I think all of those things when we have a coherent organization, really elevate the employee experience, and I think those are just the 3 keys of like where you'd want to start
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William Watkins: to create that organization. That truly is accountable.
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Dr. Ryan Curl: What's coming up for you, Ryan? Yeah. Well, said, I think one thing that's coming up, and it's talked about quite a bit in the chat, too, is that maybe one of those kind of initial foundation in terms of upskilling leaders is utilizing the scarf model, too. Right? We're talking a lot about a lot of potential threat here when we're and what we mentioned before in terms of
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Dr. Ryan Curl: how accountability might be perceived. And you know what happens when you know you don't have the proper certainty. In terms of what your role is on a task or or on a project. Right? So I think that, like initially
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Dr. Ryan Curl: elucidating those domains for social threat and reward is such a critical foundation there, too, for leaders and everyone to understand as well when we're talking about just how you know accountability can go wrong, and that we can mitigate these things through this really clear understanding of you know a of how we could be perceiving these things in a threatening way, potentially, and how they could actually be threatening based on what's actually, you know, established within the organization.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, absolutely. And I think you know one thing that, like just main when talking about, like the next steps forward. And the fact that we're constantly updating our understanding of the world based on that like that core motivational goal pursuit system that you brought up in the very beginning is that it's constantly updating. So these are these are things that we can very easily change as long as the habits that
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Dr. Emma Sarro: people are showing are consistent. So making sure that you have the systems in place that are enforcing and rewarding behaviors, promoting the people that are that are demonstrating accountability and like making sure that everyone is holding each other accountable, having that psychological safety like enforcing those behaviors, so that I think, like
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Dr. Emma Sarro: like all the comments that are coming in, and all the questions that are coming in like kind of enforce the idea that everyone is thinking about it trying to get this right. But the good thing is the light kind of here in this problem that we're trying to solve is that our brains are incredibly plastic. We're able to easily like, make new understandings of the world around us. And like update our sense of like.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: like what we can trust the certainty around us, and like creating those expectations and and setting them that it's easy to change as long as we have the right set of behaviors to do so. So. I think this is an amazing conversation. There are way too many questions to answer. Given the time we have, I mean, I'd love to hear before we kind of move on to the last kind of bit here. Any final thoughts that are coming up for you all, given like
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the conversations and the chats and the questions. Will.
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William Watkins: I think there was a lot of really good questions about coherence. And I think for me, that's something that II think is just critically important. Anytime you're trying to build a new culture of change. And I think it's really about, you know, how does what what you say? What does leadership say? What is experienced and and and what is done aligned together. And I think any anytime you're trying to. Whether this is
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William Watkins: Di, or whether this is accountability, it's just so critical to have those pieces together. And that's a really great point that I think a lot of people are making here at the end is, you know, how do we get every all these different issues together. It's about really creating that coherence is the final piece.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah, agreed. And I think
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Dr. Ryan Curl: you know about how generalizable is a growth mindset. Do I have to have a growth mindset in every situation? What if someone doesn't have a growth mindset when I do? And all those are entirely valid concerns.
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Dr. Ryan Curl: and what we've shown, and what I know, what you were talking before, too, about the brand being really incredibly plastic. And will what you're talking about about having that alignment across systems is that you know we we will adjust in general contingent on the reward pathway that exists in our environment, right? So if we get those systems aligned to push us towards to to wanting to progress in a certain realm. And we're
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Dr. Ryan Curl: rewarded for that. And we're and that we're encouraged from to do that by our leaders as well. You'll see growth mindset sprouting up in areas where maybe it didn't exist before, too. So that's not to say you have to progress in every possible scale all the time across the board. But we tend to align to what exists in our environment. And so if we get that environment right and it's coherent, then we'll see that growth mindset emerging, too, in in ways that you know it doesn't exist in this moment. Let's say.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: Yeah.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: that's incredible. I this is such a great discussion. I know that. I don't really want it to end. And there are tons of comments in here that I think what this is really encouraged us to think about is how, how better we can like solidify our understanding of accountability, and all of the different ways that are coming up for all the different factors that people were mentioning in the chat. So the chat that you're the the conversations that you're adding to chat are fantastic
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Dr. Emma Sarro: questions. We'll continue to think about this and write about it and come back on for more discussion. So look forward to that. One thing that I did want to call out towards the end is just that we are we're hoping that you'll think about taking our scarf assessment again. I know that anyone who's been with us the last few weeks we've been talking about this. Take it again, because one thing that we do know is that our sensitivities within these different
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Dr. Emma Sarro: domains of how we perceive threat and reward in our in our personal environments, and our interactions may change, depending on the day depending on your mindset. Whether you're tired or energized, or or what you're coming out of in terms of whether you had a stressful meeting or not. So definitely take it again. And we're gonna be answering some research questions in this in this realm. As well. And
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Dr. Emma Sarro: one more thing I will. You know, highlight, is that everything that we've talked about today, and everything that we talked about last week will be kind of like brought together and combined in a session next week with Amy Edmondson and our Dr. David Rock, talking about like how this balance comes together, so creating an environment, psychological safety, the need for accountability as well, and that you can have both, and they're actually both necessary.
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Dr. Emma Sarro: anyways, II will pass it back over to Shelby and thank you, Ryan. And well, this is fantastic discussion.
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Shelby Wilburn: fantastic. Thank you so much, Emily and Ryan. Again, we appreciate you and all that you shared today. For our closing. We're just gonna do some announcements, and we also have our poll up. So let us know how and a like can help you in the future. If you missed our summit this year, we do still have our on demand pass. So if you're interested in seeing a replay of the panels and different things that we discussed. Check that out. We also really love having
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Shelby Wilburn: you here with us, so we do have a season pass where you can sign up in advance for all of the Y balls. So our team will drop that link as well and we'll share it in the follow up email later. Also, if you enjoyed the conversation here, then you'll love the podcast, we have a lot of similar topics and things there. So wherever you listen, check out your brain at work, and this is where we officially say farewell. So on behalf of our team and everyone behind
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the scenes. Thank you so much for being here again, and we will see you next week for another great episode.